It still blows my mind. We need to debate torture.

With 2 Admirals and 2 Generals saying this......WTF is the problem! IT'S TORTURE....wheres McCain with his opinion?

How on earth can we(as a country) possbibly claim to have the high moral ground when we have essentially re-labled torture so that we can still use it.

It's absurd that it even needs to be said.

There is no "humane" way to "waterboard" someone. It's torture. It's ALWAYS been torture. It was torture when the Spanish Inquisitors did it, it was torture when the Japanese soldiers did it to allied soldiers during WWII, and it's still torture when WE do it... no matter what method you use.

And had Saddam of used it on U.S. troops, these same neocons would of been screaming bloody murder.

wily1 @ 5:

How on earth can we(as a country) possbibly claim to have the high moral ground when we have essentially re-labled torture so that we can still use it.

We can't. That's why torture is making a comeback around the world. If the US can do it, why can't we?

I was hoping to find Rear Admiral James McHugh (former JAG of the Navy '82-'84) on the signature list. He used to teach at my school. Sadly, I just found out that he died in '04.

I spent nearly a thousand dollars to help get Jim Webb elected and I'll spend another thousand to see Senator Isabela Feinstein (D-Spain) defeated.

Hey, hey, the JAGS complain
What the hell does Bush care
What the hell does Bush care
Hey, hey, the JAGS complain
He can waterboard them too

mudshark @ 3:

With 2 Admirals and 2 Generals saying this......WTF is the problem! IT'S TORTURE....wheres McCain with his opinion?

McCain was tortured while a POW and it messed up his cognitive processes. I really think the torture he went through made him susceptible to Stockholm syndrome, which is why he won't abandon bush despite the humiliating debacle of South Carolina in the 2000 election campaign. McCain is living proof of the permanent damage that torture does to a human being.

As for the JAGs, I seem to recall the currently serving JAG's wrote a letter about Gitmo, too, for all the good that did, way back when.

Only four retired JAG's have signed the letter? Where the hell are the rest of them???

What's worse than a phony soldier? A phony soldier who's a lawyer. Why do they want the terrorists to win?

PurplePatriot @ 19:

What's worse than a phony soldier? A phony soldier who's a lawyer. Why do they want the terrorists to win?

Wow - it's really bad when I can't tell parody from real nutbaggery.

Read the rationalizations of the neocons about waterboarding "not fatal if done right; pain, discomfort, humiliation OK; etc."

Then ask yourself (or better, one of them) why not rape? I'm not joking. The same rationalizations could very easily and should be applied to allowing guards to rape detained "suspects" with inanimate objects. Or heck, just let the guards themselves. We seem to turn a blind eye to that in civilian society anyway; "if they're in jail or prison, the probably had it coming" we say. I'm sure it would eventually "break" detainees, as the neocons trumpet about waterboarding and other torture.

This society has turned very cruel, petty, and twisted, and it did NOT start with this controversy. It has been on the boil for a while, just like racial inequality and quickly growing class inequality didn't start with Katrina.

That is why we MUST not let the Democratic party move ANY further to the right. No one seems to be able to wake up and see how much ground (and sanity) has been lost already. I'm glad these gentlemen have decided to publicly stand against this. It IS illegal, and for a reason. And all those defending the practice already know that damn well.

They are radicals. And they are trying to change the country, permanently, to wear the face of fascism. It should be clear by now that they will do WHATEVER it takes to accomplish this. I really don't think we should let them.

Bravo for their clarity (the JAGs) . . . it's time for Feinstein and Shumer to go

there not only high ranking military personnel...their Judge Advocate Generals.....that's the same as an AG in civilian life..

Whatever politician thinks waterboarding isn't torture needs to be waterboarded on live TV to show us how trivial it is. Otherwise I simply can't take them seriously.

This is not rocket science. Like pornography, you know it when you see it.

Snowball Says: "I’m betting on Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders to vote no on Mukasey. So much for this being a Jew thing".

That's NOT the point Ruthless People made. It was: "Lieberman-Feinstein-Schummer the axis of Zionists." Zionist, not Jewish. There IS a difference.

swarmofkillermonkeys @ 23:

Read the rationalizations of the neocons about waterboarding "not fatal if done right; pain, discomfort, humiliation OK; etc."

Then ask yourself (or better, one of them) why not rape? I'm not joking. The same rationalizations could very easily and should be applied to allowing guards to rape detained "suspects" with inanimate objects. Or heck, just let the guards themselves. We seem to turn a blind eye to that in civilian society anyway; "if they're in jail or prison, the probably had it coming" we say. I'm sure it would eventually "break" detainees, as the neocons trumpet about waterboarding and other torture.

This society has turned very cruel, petty, and twisted, and it did NOT start with this controversy. It has been on the boil for a while, just like racial inequality and quickly growing class inequality didn't start with Katrina.

That is why we MUST not let the Democratic party move ANY further to the right. No one seems to be able to wake up and see how much ground (and sanity) has been lost already. I'm glad these gentlemen have decided to publicly stand against this. It IS illegal, and for a reason. And all those defending the practice already know that damn well.

They are radicals. And they are trying to change the country, permanently, to wear the face of fascism. It should be clear by now that they will do WHATEVER it takes to accomplish this. I really don't think we should let them.

Guest posted by Sean Hannity:

This is atrocious! I am outraged that you would suggest such a thing!! You are undoubtedly funded by MoveOn.org! How dare you make such a suggestion! Outageous! Outageous! Outageous! Outageous! Outageous! Outageous!

I am outraged! Besides, this would never work. We all know that terrorists are liberals, and that liberals aren't capable of being raped because they are so sexually promiscuous. What you call rape and torture, a liberal calls Thursday night. Torture should be uncomfortable at the least.

You are a treasonous America-hater who hates Jesus and babies too. I am outraged by you!!

PurplePatriot @ 34:

Guest Posted by Sean Hannity ('s ghost writer):

I haven't read this entire post. Don't have to ... I already know what you liberals are up to. Plus, it's just too many words. I live in the real world where action, not words, is required. I knew I could stop reading at the word judges.

You liberals. There you go again. You and your activist judges! Now your activist judges are advocating torture for generals, or something like that. Treason, plain and simple.

Yes something stupid-ignorant like that.

just when we think we've heard it all.........It never ceases to amaze me the bulls*** that comes out of the mouths of your goverment officials.

moonsha @ 38:

Since it looks like there will be a full vote in the Senate on Mukasey, it is key that we put extreme pressure on the following Democrats for voting yes in favor of the S. 3930 [109th]: Military Commissions Act of 2006. (MCA)

Tell the Democratic Senators who helped pass the Military Commissions Act into law that it is their time to right this wrong. Otherwise, constituents in their states should mark them as torture condoning senators and vote them out of office.

God, I wish I wasn't so cynical as to believe that contacting these assholes would actually make a difference. I'd have more luck contacting Jessica Alba and getting a date (with heavy petting) than actually getting through to anyone in D.C.

I hate that I feel that way.

As a voter in the state of New York, I have a big problem with Senator Schumer's support of this candidate. Does anyone out there understand this? It's as if they all got together and said we're going to give him a pass. Senator Clinton can vote against so her presidential ambitions won't be tarnished. Schumer thinks he can take the heat so he'll roll over. Why? Is there really only one ruling party and the Democrat/Republican thing just a charade to convince us that our government is still Democratic and not a totalitarian regime?

Wow. Not only are they officers, they're attorneys. Isn't that good enough?

I'm disgusted anyone would vote to confirm that junta marionette

PurplePatriot...I agree it sucks to feel so cynical considering the severe lack of representation we have in Congress. The only thing worse to me would be that I become so cynical to believe that doing nothing would yield better results than at least trying to have some influence on policy. It is just like those people who choose not to vote. If you choose not to vote, will it make those politicians you are disgusted with go away?

One thing I have tried that seems to at least get the attention of some politicians is to tell them you will campaign against them and do everything you can to make sure they don't get re-elected. Politicians hate campaigning in general and having to campaign not only against Republicans but fellow Democrats does get under their skin.

SteveinSC @ 13:

I spent nearly a thousand dollars to help get Jim Webb elected and I'll spend another thousand to see Senator Isabela Feinstein (D-Spain) defeated.

She doesn't run again until 2012. Last year she won by a 22% margin. She's basically untouchable -- a Lame Duck.

from DailyKos

Sen. Dianne Feinstein offers up what she must this morning: an op-ed in the LA Times "explaining" her decision to vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee to send on the nomination of Judge Michael Mukasey to the full Senate for approval.

Here's the "meat" of it:

"Judge Mukasey is not Alberto R. Gonzales."

Ta-da!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/3/961/18663

Ed Fladung @ 43 "As a voter in the state of New York, I have a big problem with Senator Schumer's support of this candidate. Does anyone out there understand this? It's as if they all got together and said we're going to give him a pass."

No, you've been electing Schumer all along, as we have Feinstain, and this is not the first time they have betrayed you.

"Senator Clinton can vote against so her presidential ambitions won't be tarnished."

I see, then by 'they all,' you meant that the NY Senators colluded in their votes? That's possible.

"Is there really only one ruling party and the Democrat/Republican thing just a charade"

No, that's just paranoia. Did Schumer and Clinton collude? It's possible. But the US Senate has rolled over on such candidates for a VERY long time indeed. He's got the resume, and he's got the President's backing with every R's vote. There's no point in melting down over it -- the neocons have been running/ruining the country, and they are going to be for a while longer, too. We simply do not have enough power to stop them outright -- and the US Senate has NEVER been strong enough to stop such a vigorous coup with one whole party violating their oaths.

Next year we will pick up maybe 10 Senate seats, and things will be somewhat different. But the Senate design is meant to be relatively impervious to public opinion.

PurplePatriot @ 52:

PurplePatriot @ 50:

dadams @ 46:

Hmm ... I'm trying to figure out whether you're missing me doing obvious satire (as anyone who comes here very often would know, let alone the "Guest posted by Sean Hannity" tag line), or if I'm missing you doing obvious satire back at me. Hmmm...

I've decided you were doing satire back at me. Having re-read my post (it was hilarious by the way), I've realized that nobody could have not realized it was satire.

Stop this. Stop this right now. My brain is spinning - and not in a good way.
:lol:

moonsha @ 49:

PurplePatriot...I agree it sucks to feel so cynical considering the severe lack of representation we have in Congress. The only thing worse to me would be that I become so cynical to believe that doing nothing would yield better results than at least trying to have some influence on policy. It is just like those people who choose not to vote. If you choose not to vote, will it make those politicians you are disgusted with go away? ...

I know what you mean. But here I am, in a deeply red state. It is delusional that my vote for president means jackshit. So while I vote, it has never mattered in a presidential election ... not one time in my whole life ... not even close.

And when it comes to congress, I almost feel like a customer who is dissatisfied with Wal-Mart. Write all the letters you want. Take your business somewhere else. Tell all of your friends. It just won't have an impact. The senators from the state I live in now are just batshit crazy. I mean nothing to any of the other senators who actually have positions of power because I am not a constituent. Chairpersons are picked by the establishment, not by the people. It's a racket.

the solution is to take Levin and make him the AG, obviously he took the position serious enough to find out what waterboarding was,

Schumer owes Giuliani for blocking an indictment related to his first election. Schumer's wife worked for Giuliani and now works for Bloomberg. Wayne Barrett of the Village Voice has an extensive article on the relationship between Giuliani, Schumer and Mukasey in this weeks Village Voice

Even the Democratic senator guiding Mukasey's nomination though the
Senate, Chuck Schumer, has his own Giuliani connections. As associate
attorney general in 1983, Giuliani rebuffed Brooklyn U.S. Attorney Ray
Dearie, who had recommended Schumer's indictment based on allegations
involving his initial election to Congress in 1980. Schumer's wife,
Iris Weinshall, held several top posts in the Giuliani administration,
and was ultimately his transportation commissioner. Mayor Bloomberg
has said that Giuliani asked him to retain only two of his top aides
when he left City Hall, and one was Weinshall. Before Weinshall took
over the transportation job, she was a deputy commissioner under
Giuliani at another agency, where she oversaw the construction of the
bunker at 7 World Trade Center.

I want to wake up tomorrow knowing that all has been restored to a time when America did not equivocate about such things. If it was in my power to do so I would enter the whitehouse and throw this fuck we call president right to the curb but that is not going to happen. So I am going to wake up and keep writing, keep protesting, keep calling and hope that the number of people that have had enough gets strong enough to stop the thrust of totalitarian governance that is evolving at an ever faster rate. To all who comment here even you on the other side of the fence, this is our country and if we want to keep it we have to work together. This is not a partisan issue, it is a humanistic issue that effects us all, thanks to all who keep fighting, we will prevail.

Why can't a senator block Mukasy the way Jesse Helms blocked Bill Weld from becoming ambassador to Mexico?

Lieberstein!

It is time to investigate Feinstein. She is guilty of many crimes and conflicts of interest during her committee work in Congress. Her stand on Mukasey is the last straw. She is vulnerable, but in a criminal way.
Google reporter Peter Byrne and go to his site. He has all her crimes listed. She is truly a traitor to the Troops and to all that ever served in the military.

I also am tired of these guys being called "neo-cons". They aren't. Real conservatives are fiscally responsible. They are not, although they "pretend" to be.

I consider them more like "neo-nazis" or neo-fascists".

33
Uphere Says:

Snowball Says: “I’m betting on Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders to vote no on Mukasey. So much for this being a Jew thing”.

That’s NOT the point Ruthless People made. It was: “Lieberman-Feinstein-Schummer the axis of Zionists.” Zionist, not Jewish. There IS a difference.

I didn’t single him out. The statement “It’s a Jew thing” came from one of the threads on this the other night. There were other similar comments as well. Just because Feinstein and Schumer are Jewish doesn’t mean this instance has anything to do with Zionism, Israel, AIPAC or being Jewish. All roads don’t lead to Israel and Zionism unless you are a zealot, racist or conspiracy theorist. And don’t give me that garbage straw man argument that I’m calling any criticism of Israel anti-Semitic, I’m not. I’m just saying it has nothing to do with this issue and you you be hard pressed to show any link other than the ethnicity of Feinstein and Schumer.

Those of you who throw around the term Zionism like it is a cabal of imperialism and especially those who then claim that there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism, you know nothing. Zero.

The whole claim that Zionists are a sub-group of Jews who are authoritarians or fascists - that's like thinking all bald-headed young males are ALL white supremacists. Yes, there are Jewish fascists and authoritarians - yes indeed! HOWEVER, not all Zionists are fascist imperialists!

The problem stems from a lack of understanding of what Zionism means and how Jewish people think about Israel.

First, consider an Italian American - ask him, go ahead, ask him if Italy were in danger of being overrun by (pick-someone) would THEY go and fight for Italy's survival (assuming they could) ask them if they would donate money to aid the people of their ethnic homeland to help them fight off the evil invaders.

Now, I direct your attention to Sen. Feingold, a big favorite of mine personally, a man of honor and integrity and one who the readers of C&L seem to also like. He is mentioned above as proof that it's NOT about being Zionist. Now go ask Russ the same question. Ask him if he believes that Israel has a RIGHT TO EXIST. Who thinks he will say "No, Zionism is wrong and Jews should leave Israel to the Muslims". Of course not. Feingold is as much of a Zionist as ANY Jew, even a lame ass Jew like me who is an avowed atheist (what did he just say? He's a Jew and an Atheist - another thing non-Jews can never understand - Jewish is my Heritage and my Ethnicity, but not my religion - and Zionism has nothing to do with religion) will agree, Israel has a right to exist. Period. And anyone who tries to forceably remove Israel should be resisted with force as required. That is what Zionism means (from Wikipedia) "Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel".

You people who throw around the Zionist label - you have no idea what Zionism even means. I criticize Israel plenty, they make some big mistakes. But I still believe in the right of that nation to exist and thus I too am a Zionist. Let's repeat this in another way, to be clear - Israel has all kinds of people and some of them are real Aholes who are right in line with Bush and have used the conflict with Palestinians as an excuse to manipulate the people and government of Israel into taking imperialist positions and using authoritarian and neo-fascist techniques. This cannot be allowed to continue, but there must be clarity of language and understanding of the term Zionism before any conversation about this can even begin, even among people who agree on the devastating effect of the policies and practices employed by the gov't of Israel.

The distinction should not be between Jew and Zionist, for there is no difference, or else you really are not a Jew, IMO, in any sense of the word.

The distinction - as ALWAYS - is between Authoritarianism and Democracy. Many in Israel are authoritarians just like here in the US. And many are progressive and crave peace and are willing to work hard for that peace. But they are ALL Zionists and it is absurd to keep attacking the big bad evil Zionists while claiming it is not anti-Jewish.

Just like it is absurd to go around attaching Islam while claiming that it is not racist. Bad people within these groups are creating strife to further their own ends - the taking of power. Zionism is not the enemy.

So let's stop using the word then please? Say something unoffensive to Jews like "right-wing israeli nutbags" or "radical jewish haters" - or if you believe the entire government is imperialist and unsalvagable, why not say "the evil right-wing israeli government" - just don't blame it on Zionists or Zionism because that really does mean ALL jews.

And if there are Jews out there who are reading this and you are itching to write back and say "Well I'm a jew and I don't think Israel has a RIGHT to exist" or "Well I'm not a jew, but I am not a racist, and I don't see what's so important about keeping Israel around" or "I'm not against Jews but what would be so terrible if Israel was taken over by the Muslims" then to you I say, plain and simple, fuck you very much, go away, you are not my friend, you are an asshole.

give up a latte' or two, and pass on that next electronic gizmo.

Give whatever you can afford to the Congressional candidates who stand poised to change the balance of power.

It really is that simple. It's how the religious right got their power. They tithed to their candidates.

Zion (From Wikypedia)

An ideology which simply signifies: A return to Zion, another name given to Jerusalem.
Zion (Hebrew: צִיּוֹן, tziyyon; Tiberian vocalization: tsiyyôn; transliterated Zion or Sion) is a term that most often designates the Land of Israel and its capital, Jerusalem. The word is found in texts dating back almost three millennia. It originally referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem (Mount Zion), on which stood a Jebusite fortress of the same name that was conquered by David and was named the City of David.
Zion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a metonym for Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and the entire Promised Land to come, in which, according to the Hebrew Bible, God dwells among his chosen people.
Modern use
For other uses, see Zion (disambiguation).
Zion appears 154 times in the Tanakh (Hebrew Old Testament). Some examples from the book of Psalms, which have been frequently recited and memorized by Jews for centuries, state:
"By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion." (Psalms 137:1)
"For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof; O daughter of Babylon, that art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that repayeth thee as thou hast served us." (Psalms 137:3-8) (King James Version, with italics for words not in the original Hebrew)
"The builder of Jerusalem is God, the outcast of Israel he will gather in... Praise God O Jerusalem, laud your God O Zion." (Psalms 147:2-12)

Zionism is a political movement and an ideology
that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century AD. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.
Anti-slavery
The Jewish longing for Zion, starting with the deportation and enslavement of Jews during the Babylonian captivity, was adopted as a metaphor by Christianized Black slaves. Thus, Zion symbolizes a longing by wandering peoples for a safe homeland. This could be a literal place such as in Ethiopia for Rastafari for example. For others, it has taken on a more spiritual meaning—a safe spiritual homeland, like in heaven, or a kind of peace of mind in one's present life.
Latter-day Saints
Main article: Zion (Latter Day Saints)
Zion is a term with broad significance in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In addition to its Biblical meaning referring to Jerusalem, Mormons see Zion more broadly as any city in which the people are unified and are "pure in heart," with no contention and no poor among them based on living the Law of Consecration. In specific scriptural references, the term refers to the central physical location or city to which Latter-day Saints have historically gathered, which has included Kirtland, Ohio; Independence, Missouri; Nauvoo, Illinois; and Salt Lake City, Utah. In a more metaphorical sense, Zion represents a unified society of Latter-day Saints, unified under the law of consecration. Under this interpretation, one can strive to make even one's own home "Zion." Zion also refers to what Latter-day Saints generally believe will be the New Jerusalem, a physical, millennial city expected to be headquartered in Jackson County, Missouri.

Rastafari movement
For Rastafarians, Zion is to be found in Africa, and more specifically in Ethiopia, where the term is also in use. Some Rastas believe themselves to represent the Children of Israel in modern times, and their goal is to repatriate to Africa, or to Zion. Rasta reggae is peppered with references to Zion; among the best-known examples are the Bob Marley songs '"Zion Train," "Iron Lion Zion," and the Damian Marley song "Road to Zion." Reggae groups such as Steel Pulse and Cocoa Tea also have many references to Zion in their various songs. In recent years, such references have also "crossed over" into pop music thanks to artists like OAR, Sublime, Lauryn Hill, Boney M (Rivers of Babylon), Dreadzone with the reggae-tinged track "Zion Youth."
Example from the Mad Professor song "Africa Is Zion": "Africa is Zion and Zion is Africa, Ethiopia is Mount Zion / Them tell us that Africa is Africa, the Bible tell us it's Zion."
"Zion" stands for an Utopian place of unity, peace and freedom, as opposed to "Babylon," the oppressing and exploiting system of the western world and a place of evil.
"Zion" unity

Another, not to good example. Think of the Cubans trying to go back to Cuba.

Who cares what these phony soldiers have to say? There's work to be done. To the chambers (torture, that is). C'mon big man Rush, we're waiting.

I too, can't believe the USA would ever be debating this. NEVER.

Note to PurplePatriot:

Satire is dead. I don't blame you for not being aware--like most casualties of the Bush years, it's tragic brutal demise was not mentioned in the papers.

It has been survived by Reality, which has pledged to carry on its tradition.

Also in critical condition or gone missing:

- Irony
- Hypocrisy
- Shame
- Human Decency
- Justice

and of course the Constitution.

First of all, Mukasey knows what waterboarding is. His answer to the contrary should be enough to disqualify him from the position. Either he lied when he said he didn't know what waterboarding is, or he came to the hearing completely unprepared. Neither option is something we need in an AG. He's either a liar, or incompetent.

And given the history of the use of waterboarding by Torquemada, Mukasey, Feinstein, and Schumer should all be completely ashamed of themselves as Jews. What's next? Zyclon B is okay, so long as it is used as a delousing agent rather than a method to kill humans?

How ironic that the deeply religious USA so easily forgets the "do unto others" wisdom that the (fictional) Jesus character gave them.

P.S. Nice post, Strangefate.

So there are some JAG's who understand English, and speak Truth.

Whodathought?

Dire Lobo @ 75:

33
Uphere Says:

The distinction should not be between Jew and Zionist, for there is no difference, or else you really are not a Jew, IMO, in any sense of the word.

You show your own ignorance on the topic.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

The odds of Addington allowing a nominee that they don't hold some king of deep dark secret about are zero. There is no way in hell this crew is going to send up anyone who defines torture any differently than they tell him to. Prosecution of these war crimes will have to happen after they are gone. I just wonder, what blackmail could they have on this guy that is so bad he is willing to defend torture and unlimited executive power in public?

DiFi and Schumer need to go. There can be no defense of their actions.

Paul in LA @ 51:

SteveinSC @ 13:

I spent nearly a thousand dollars to help get Jim Webb elected and I'll spend another thousand to see Senator Isabela Feinstein (D-Spain) defeated.

She doesn't run again until 2012. Last year she won by a 22% margin. She's basically untouchable -- a Lame Duck.

==========
Any chance of a recall election? Imagine the message we'd be sending to Congress if we weeded out Feinstein and Schumer through special emergency recall elections, like they did to the old California governor a few years back! If they perceived the American people as athreat to their positions I guarantee they'd start listening. So, what's the first step to organizing a recall election in California? Feinstein is the San Francisco area rep.

Why are all the generals and these lawyers too spineless to speak up while on active duty? Everytime you hear a military critic it's "former" and "retired", yadda yadda yadda.

Don't tell me they are concerned about being prosecuted for criticizing the Commandeer In Chief (that's not a typo). If they're supposedly willing to lay down their lives for their country, this is the time to do it. Where's the American Erwin Rommel when he's needed?

I'm NOT insinuating assassination by mentioning Rommel, I just mean arrest of or open criticism of the neo-clowns, telling the truth of what's going on, leaking secrets that expose the lies, just SOMEBODY not afraid of the consequences of doing the job and upholding the constitution. The congress and senate sure as hell haven't the stones to do it (though it seems the diplomats do).

Criticizing the Commandeer only after retirement is cowardice. They should stand up and do their duty while they're ON duty, consequences be damned, and do it out of loyalty to their country, NOT loyalty to the temporary resident of the White House.

"An evil exists that threatens every man,woman and child of this nation.We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland." -Georges W Bush- are also the words use by Adolf Hitler when announcing the Gestapo to the people.

Holding someone against their will is false imprisonment and an egregious act of oppression. Causing persons to fear for their life, fear that they are drowning, is, in most states, a condition that the law allows someone to use deadly force to defend themselves. Without Habeus Corpus this is not an American enterprise...this is fascism in the finest Gestapo style. War crimes come to mind. War crimes trials come to mind. All of these gangsters involved in this know an assault occurs if someone is touched the slightest against their will. Assault, depending on the degree, can run the gamut from a misdemeanor to a felony. In the case of water boarding, in my opinion, it is a felony. All those involved in this Gulag style operation are in a conspiracy to commit a violation of the law. It means they are all subject to criminal charges for what they've done. Why is this still happening? Why is their a debate about this? Americans can't act this way. It has to stop. Cave congress cave, you bunch of GD cowards!! This will all come home to roost eventually and our country will be the worse for it.

ohdave @ 8:

I'm with fiver at #1. Can't believe we're having this discussion.

If it isn't torture, why are they doing it to try to extract a confession? What is it, we're trying to annoy them into compliance? The right wingers would have us believe that it's just splashing people in the face. If that's all there is to it, what would be the point? That's supposed to make em talk?

If it's supposed to create psychological stress, then it's torture. If it doesn't create psychological stress what the hell is the point?

Sorry, but if it weren't torture they wouldn't be doing it. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Why?

What has this administration done that IS legal?

Two fixed elections, news reports that are paid propaganda, cronyism, suspension of civil rights, looting the treasury, endless non compete bids, mercenaries, two illegal wars, prison camps, outing CIA agents,...

If you or I tried doing even a fraction of the above offenses, we'd have been shot a long time ago. Instead, its spun so hard, we have debates about it.

George Orwell is projective vomiting from inside his coffin.

I suppose the righties would find butt-rape acceptable. Provided, of course, that enough lube is used to prevent anal tearing

Given their support for the atrocities at Abu Ghraib, which included the anal rape of at least one child by US interrogators, they will probably come out in favor of fisting before long. And of course Feinstein and Schumer will support it.

Paul in LA @ 80:

Dire Lobo @ 75

Two questions:

1) You don't disagree, do you, that Israel was established to a significant degree by the Zionism that embraces both terrorism and racism? Because, let me tell you, I have talked to quite a few racist Zionists, and they fully embrace terrorism as legitimate so long as it serves their worldview.

2) You talk about 'turning Israel over to the Muslims,' as if the question was only religious. What about the legitimate property rights of Palestinian Arabs? How do you propose to resolve that issue?

I do disagree that Israel was established (to a significant degree or otherwise) by "the zionism that embraces both terrorism and racism" - not only disagree with that statement but I object strongly to the loaded nature and framing of the question to IMPLY that there are 2 kinds of Zionism, the kind which embraces both terrorism and racism and the other kind, which presumably does not.

You must see that just as there is no "Americanism which embraces terrorism and racism" there are only right-wing Americans who embrace terrorism and racism (and other nasty stuff). So, too, there are Jews who embrace terrorism and racism, and Frenchmen who embrace terrorism and racism and Chinese who embrace terrorism and racism and Polocks (or is it Polish People?) who embrace terrorism and racism.

And saying that you have talked to a "lot of racist Zionists" is EXACTLY the same thing as saying you have taled to a lot of racist Jews, and so have I. Some are even in my own family. But you must be operating under a misunderstanding of what Zionism means and what Jews think about themselves. Zionism means (as has been cross posted here above by others) a movement to support the formation and existence of a jewish state in Israel). You do not have to be a racist to believe in that. Perhaps you have to feel a bit of the imperialist in you - I might even be willing to discuss that.

As to who contributed to the formation of the modern state of Israel, who they were, what their ideology was and what they did to win control of what is now Israel is the whole nexus of the controversy which caused the current conflict and for me to regurgitate the long and complex facts and perspectives which contribute to form my view of WHO AND WHY AND HOW they accomplished this feat would not only take too long but would merely lead to further arguments about those facts, dates, incidents, motives of the people involved at the time (including the Bristish, Arabs, Jews, Europeans, etc). which would be counter productive to MY GOAL and so I won't do it.

It may be fair to say that they did things which some would characterize as terrorism, but others would classify it as freedom fighting and point to similar events in US history vis-a-vis America's independance and revolt against our overlords, who happen to be the same overlords the founding fathers of Israel were fighting against. But I already detract from my message.

MY GOAL is to explain to people that Zionism is NOT EQUAL to racism just as Italian Nationalism is not equal to racism or American Nationalism is equal to racism. It is true that excessive nationalism can and often leads to abuse of power and atrocities against man.

But to claim that Zionism is racist and therefore all Zionists are racist IS the same as saying all jews are racist since all jews (or as close to 100% as is statistically feasable to measure in the real world) therefore this construct and framing must be stopped.

With regards to your second question, again - a discussion of that would be counter-productive to MY GOALS and would detract from the discussion I want to have about the framing and use of the term Zionism to mean racism.

I'm not surprised that these people had to wait until they were retired to write and sign a letter like this. The inability to voice an independent opinion while serving in the military is one of the greatest travesties of our society. Our military leaders want blind faith and devotion before they want rationality and freedom of expression.

Dire Lobo @ 107 "I do disagree that Israel was established (to a significant degree or otherwise) by "the zionism that embraces both terrorism and racism" - not only disagree with that statement but I object strongly to the loaded nature and framing of the question to IMPLY that there are 2 kinds of Zionism, the kind which embraces both terrorism and racism and the other kind, which presumably does not."

That was your claim, that there were two Zionisms. Personally, I don't believe there are any more -- though there were at the beginning. The honor of "Zionism" (and Israel) was lost in that battle, and the continued racism is EXACTLY the same thing again.

And here's the point: Until Zionism (and Israel) acknowledges its genocidal basis, there will be no justice. Until non-racists regain control of Zionism and Israel, there can be no human rights. Zionism itself, as a relgious fanaticism tied directly to racist and terrorist philosophy, is inextricable from the crimes it has committed.

• "The Irgun, under Menachem Begin, then decided to blow up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem which housed the British administrative offices and was a prime symbol of the British presence in Palestine...Begin then undertook the operation on his own and scheduled it for the middle of the working day. The resulting explosion, on 22 July [1946], killed ninety-one British, Jewish, and Arab personnel and wounded dozens more."

• "In three weeks in 1937, Irgun bombs planted in Arab marketplaces killed seventy-seven Arabs." Is that not terrorism? It of course is.

• "...the major Jewish protagonists were the Irgun and LEHI who specialized in bomb and car-bomb assaults on heavily congregated Arab areas...One series of incidents began with either Irgun or LEHI gunmen throwing bombs at a group of Arab workers at the gates of an oil refinery in Haifa...six Arabs were killed and forty-two wounded...Two days later the Hagana...entered a village close to Haifa, dressed as Arabs, and killed approximately sixty persons, including many women and children. [This is in 1947]

• "A joint Irgun-LEHI force attacked the village, took it after quelling resistance, and slaughtered about 250 men, women, and children whose mutilated bodies were stuffed down wells."

• "In short, Zionist psychological warfare and terror tactics, which included the destruction of villages and the outing of their populations, combined to produce a state of panic that resulted in the flight of over 300,000 Arabs by 15 May [1947]."

"You must see that just as there is no "Americanism which embraces terrorism and racism"

Oh, on the contrary. What exactly did you think slavery or the Civil War was?

"So, too, there are Jews who embrace terrorism and racism,"

Clearly there were Zionist racist groups, big ones, which used terror tactics to gain control of Palestine. That was my point. You were trying to make Zionism out for some kind of peaceful cultural destiny. But the tactics the Zionists used were VIOLENT TERRORISM and cruel economic disposssion of the Arabs.

"And saying that you have talked to a "lot of racist Zionists" is EXACTLY the same thing as saying you have talked to a lot of racist Jews, and so have I. Some are even in my own family."

Peaceful Zionism did not win. Violent Zionism won, by violence. And that violent Zionism IS not the same as 'Jews,' it is a terrorist anti-human rights regime -- not just racist Jews.

fair and square @ 108:

Again, the democRATS failed to take the fight to the Chimp. Too bad there no real third polictical party that really cares about regular hard working americans.

There is none because you cannot get them elected with YOUR RHETORIC, which wants to blame the complexities of democratic government on 'weakness.' This was TWO Senators, and one of those Senators habitually gives her pals at Bushco what they want. It's not the entire party, and you failed entirely to acknowledge the five or six committee Dems who will vote against, vociferously.

You don't play, so you can keep your idea of purity. UNTIL you play, you aren't doing anything but relabeling. Third party gov't does not exist. The reasons for that are complex, but the strongest theme is the refusal to acknowledge complexity.

btw, contrary to popular opinion, torture didn't become a topic for discussion in respectable circles during just the last 6 years. In Fateful Triangle Noam Chomsky listed the first apologia for torture that appeared in a mainstream US magazine and his reaction to it:

To my knowledge, this is the first explicit defense of torture to have appeared in the West apart from the ravings of the ultra-right in France during the Algerian War.

The July 23, '77 New Republic article was by Seth Kaplan in which he argued against "outright condemnation of torture". Newsweek also carried something called 'The Case for Torture' on June 7, 1982 by Michael Levin, a professor of philosophy at City College of New York, just a few weeks after Israel had invaded Lebanon causing 20,000 deaths.

Venini @ 32:

and

what the hell

is schumer trying to

pull

Schumer is also the same cretin who protected the Hedge-Fund billionaires from having to pay the same tax rate as the rest of us mere working mortals. Must be nice to make $640,000,000 a year, and only have to pay a 15% tax rate on it.
Isn't there someone in NY who can challenge this jerk in the primaries?

If it is legal to torture someone whose name you cannot easily pronounce, it is legal to do the same to you or to your wife or to your kids. That may well be the goal, because you are a far greater potential threat to the present power structure than any foreigner.

#120 Nick Stanert

(pssst...I think this was sarcasm)

Bumper sticker seen around:

WE ONLY TORTURE
WHEN OUR VALUES ARE THREATENED.

Geneva Conventions Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

When did Al Qaida or the Taliban become High Contracting Parties? The conventions require both parties in a conflict to abide by the rules. Once one party opts out, the conventions do not apply.

Snowball @ 22:

I'm betting on Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders to vote no on Mukasey. So much for this being a Jew thing. I guess that doesn't fit neatly some peoples narrative. When you focus like a laser beam on someones ethnicity when they do something you don't like, there's only one word to describe it: Racism.

Once again Judaism is not an ethnicity, IT'S A RELIGION. That would focusing on it bigotry, not racism.

Don't you all see it yet? The Dems are different in only one respect from the Repugs; methodology. Dems want to lure us gently into a one-world government. Repugs think it's smarter to scare us into it. That's the only difference. When the dollar is finally dead and the Amero arrives, will anyone finally believe it?