FOXNews Sunday: Poppy Bush Gets Emotional Remembering How We USED To Treat Prisoners
By Logan Murphy Saturday Nov 03, 2007 11:10am
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On this morning's Fox News Sunday, Chris Wallace interviewed former President George H.W. Bush at his Presidential Library in Texas. Bush defends his son's disastrous presidency, but later in the interview as he and Wallace stood in a mock up of a tent used by U.S. soldiers during the first Gulf War, he vehemently defended his decision not to march on to Baghdad in 1991.
While watching footage of news clips from the conflict, Poppy becomes emotional when he describes what he believes to be the most lasting images from the conflict -- the humane way in which the U.S. treated Iraqi prisoners.
Wallace: "The President remembered the courage and humanity of American soldiers and he grew emotional."
Bush: "My favorite picture is a picture of American soldiers surrounding a guy whose been in a foxhole, Iraqi soldier, and the American guy says, we're not going to harm you, we're American soldiers." (fights back tears)
Bush: "...See, that side of the war never got -- the fact that we treated those people with respect in spite of the fact they were the enemy, it's really good.
Sadly, Mr. Bush would now be considered a coward and a terrorist sympathizer by his own party for these views. Go ahead and let it out, sir -- the nation weeps with you for what your son has done in our name.
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GW tortures the image of the USA everyday as he continues to torture the English language... isn't it Jan. 20, 2009, yet? Wake me when it's over and Bobby Ewing is back in the shower...
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Yeah -- real compassionate.
He tells the Shiites to rise up against Hussein, and then when they do -- he walks away and allows Hussein to slaughter them.
Oh, wait! These are brown people I'm talking about. Move along now.
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Oh my God. That reaction, the crying... It's like he's saying, "I'm SO ashamed of what my own son has done!"
Remarkable, and sad.
Well nice tears but complete bullshit because of the absolute slaughter we inflicted on Iraqi troops attempting to reatreat from Kuwait. Oh, I forgot, as long as you slaughter people using bombs and missiles it doesn't really count.
Phony commander in chief?
Balls on Bush! And the fascist family he rode in on.
"Sadly, Mr. Bush would now be considered a coward and a terrorist sympathizer by his own party for these views. Go ahead and let it out, sir — the nation weeps with you for what your son has done in our name."
Yes he would be seen that way and the extremists currently in the Republican Party would let him know it. I served in the Marines during George H.W. Bush's presidency and for all of his faults, he was not the worst President. That title goes to the dictator George W. Bush.
I am glad other posters see through pappy's bullshit.
Croccodile Tears from one who is diabolical genius enough to send his Blue Blood son to Texas to impersonate a Country Cowboy.
the senior bus should remember the references in this article from the washington post then. It took place when he was flying in the pacific during WW2
Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007; B01
As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I told you today, but just remember what your mom told you: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's a pretty good standard for life and for the law, and even though I left the unit in 1995, I like to think that some of my teaching had carried over when the 72nd refused to participate in misconduct at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.
Sometimes, though, the questions we face about detainees and interrogation get more specific. One such set of questions relates to "waterboarding."
That term is used to describe several interrogation techniques. The victim may be immersed in water, have water forced into the nose and mouth, or have water poured onto material placed over the face so that the liquid is inhaled or swallowed. The media usually characterize the practice as "simulated drowning." That's incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death. That is,
the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted. According to those who have studied waterboarding's effects, it can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:
A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.
The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals. As a general rule, the testimony was similar to Nielsen's. Consider this account from a Filipino waterboarding victim:
Q: Was it painful?
A: Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious. Like drowning in the water.
Q: Like you were drowning?
A: Drowning -- you could hardly breathe.
Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:
They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.
And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.
As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.
More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."
In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."
The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That's a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is -- as well as what it ought to be.
Evan Wallach, a judge at the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York, teaches the law
of war as an adjunct professor at Brooklyn Law School and New York Law School.
This would be George H.W. "Highway of Death" Bush? Oh, the humanity.
Yeah, above all else, loyalty to the "family."
In a world full of shades of gray, there are things (torture) that are always wrong, and neither justifyable nor excusable by identification with some pre-existent tie to the perpetrators - be it familial, occupational, vocational, philosophical, or otherwise.
My son wears a T Shirt with Poppy on it and under the picture it says, "I should have pulled out."
I wonder how often he thinks that?
Every time he comes in front of camera, he cries! The poor old dude.
Here you have a man that is living what are probably the last years of his life, and naturally he's done some soul-searching. I sense that at times he's reluctant to admit his mistakes and goes so far as to try to rewrite his own memories of the events. It's quite common in old people who live with shameful pasts. But I still think he's deeply ashamed of what his son's administration has done, and how his son will go down in history. Talk about a major blot on the family name. These people are very lineage-minded, and I'm betting not many people will like the Bushes once the dust settles and all of the war crimes tribunals have been completed. That has to hurt Bush Sr, to think that his family's good name is irreperably damaged. I pity him and agree that he's a teddy bear compared to his son, but he and his ilk brought this on themselves.
Well, one thing Dan Rather and Old Man Bush have in common. They both can turn the tears on a dime.
in our name and with our money... or rather, CHINA's money (which we'll never be able to pay back)...
That is the military I remember serving in!!! We were the good guys....the enemy could be shooting at us...and five minutes later they give up and then we take care of them...no matter how much you did not like them....thats what it was to be in the United States Military. Now we are hated all over the world because of some draft dodging warmongering pieces of shit!!!
AL GORE FOR PRESIDENT 08
This guy was the Vice President of the United States when Reagan was running his secret wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua where men trained at the School of the Americas at Fort Benning in Georgia routinely hacked the hands, feet, breasts and heads off of civilians in entire villages.
Yeah, really humane.
You reap what you sow. Bush Sr. is the same person who said non-believers should not be considered citizens of the U.S. It's a little late for the crocodile tears, which were most likely shed due to the ruin of the Bush family name rather than anything as trivial as the ruin of America and its reputation.
The Way Things Werrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre
Reader of CL @ 10 -
You read my mind. The hypocrisy and / or historical amnesia is staggering / breathtaking. Must be a family genetic defect.
C'mon America! Let's go for a real first: 2 ex-Presidents, father and son, in the dock in the Hague. Let the war crimes trials begin.
Yes indeed life as dictated by 83 year olds.
What an " OUT OF THE LOOP ASSHOLE " I have nothing but contempt for him and any of his spawn . W is the worst excuse for a president ever perpetrated on this once great nation of ours .
Bush: “…See, that side of the war never got — the fact that we treated those people with respect in spite of the fact they were the enemy, it’s really good."
Yes, Poppy, it did get covered - extensively. Stop your damned whining, you old fart!
Papa: See, son, my wars had atrocities within them, but I kept it popular. You know why? Because I had defined a clear goal, and stuck to it. The goal of my war was to get Saddam out of Kuwait. We went in, did that, and got out. Whatever else happened, my war had a clear goal, and people knew it. Now, I might be able to help you, son, if we can figure out a clear goal for your war. Tell me, son, what's the goal of your war?
Shrub: Whaddaya mean, dad? The goal is war.
I don't care how much you hate the Bush's. Those are not manufactured tears. He is a WWII Vet that knows sacrafice and had the brains enough to stay out of Iraq. Some things you can't take away from a person...what someone has done for their country...GHWB fought and was shot down in WWII in the Pacific and saw many friends die...I don't like his politics but those tears are for real!!!! He must be very disappointed with his Son?
He certainly is crying over the total screw-up his stupid, coke-head and deserter whacko of a son.
You raised the little monster, you married the hag that bore this hell spawn. Save your tears for the citizens of the country you so deftly exploited your entire life.
"Papa Bush" is a bonafide Fascist just like his offspring and his entire family! If he does show any sadness or misgivings about anything it is because he couldn't accomplish what his son, "Baby Bush" has managed to do. The Bush Family are evil to the core...make no mistake about that!!
CaliforniaDave @17 -
The American military were decidedly NOT the good guys in Gulf War 1 and surely not in Gulf War 2. Indeed, you have to go back a long way to find such an example in the history of America's military adventures. I'm not even sure that I could, come to think of it.
The function of the U.S. military is to defend the country - the minute they set foot outside our borders they become imperialist adventurers, no different than every other invader / conqueror throughout history. The fact that thinking men and women obey the orders of their corrupt / ethically-challenged superiors to commit crimes against innocent people says all you need to know about what being in the military does to otherwise decent people.
I do not support "our" troops or anyone else's troops when they are engaged in these criminal enterprises.
Don't worry the Bush Family remedy, whiskey and prozac is available for all.
Tuff shit, Poppy. He's YOUR fault too.
Reader of CL @ 10:
Good link. I would take the word of independent reporter Robert Fisk over that of Colin Powell regarding the true state of what happened in Iraq, both in 1991 and in the present.
Who does george the ture #43 take after the mother. His father seems like an honorable man when it comes to being an American. Is that maybe because he really went to war and fought to defend his country. Because he didn't run and hid when he had the chance like his turd ball son. George W. Bush #43 is the poorest example of a man this country has ever seen. He has absolutely none of the qualities that would make him a real American. What the hell is he doing in this country, much less the white house.
Damn it is a shame he doesn't read the real news and blogs like these.
But now Poppy, your son has turned America into the Soviet Union, the Viet Cong, Pinochet's Chile, and all of the worst nations on the planet.
We call it "enhanced interrogation techniques" but it really is torture.
The same crowd that used to hate 'lawerly parsing of words' now embraces 'lawerly parsing' of torture techniques.
Hoory you weepy old loser, your family has destroyed America.
-GSD
Oh for heavens sake, more tears!
Poppy Bush and Barbara, the son you raised is all yours.
Maybe you should have kicked him where it hurts when he messed up in his younger years.
Now the country has to pay for your mistakes.
Marcus Aurelius had a son too... Commodus.
I *just* posted the video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBa13Z6pV78
Had this interview of taken place ten years earlier, he would of bursting with pride, not tears.
Former President George HW Bush gets emotional talking about how well U.S. troops treated captured Iraqi soldiers during the 1991 Gulf War and how hard it was to put troops in harms way.
Today, his son's administration is debating the use of *torture* on Iraqi's, has sent hundreds of thousands into harms way and is responsible to nearly FOUR THOUSAND dead U.S. troops.
" I pity him and agree that he's a teddy bear compared to his son, but he and his ilk brought this on themselves."
Um.... they brought it on *us*.
Why should he be crying? Just because his son started an illegal war,Subverted the Constitution,Ignored the Geneva Convention and condones and practices Torture,Outed a CIA covert officer(TREASON).Has put the country so far in debt that it will take generations for it to recover from,Let a whole city fall into chaos by not reacting and responding when that city needed help(Katrina,Failed to react to the PDB dated aug 6/01 and let the biggest attack happen on US soil,Failed to get OBL the person responsilble,Allowed millions of jobs to be exported with his trade policy......I'll tell ya why he's crying......because his other son Jeb doesn't have a chance now to be selected into the oval office...I know I missed a few points here...theres just way too many to remember all at once.
The stress of having an idiot for a son is showing. Every time he is in public he breaks down in tears. George and Babs should have supported abortion rights.
I think what Bush said was not that non believers shouldn't citizens, but an atheist wouldn't make a good president.
Personally, regardless of the legitimate complaints raised here about things which happened during his presidency (anyone remember the guy who was set up in a sting to sell drugs outside the white house, just so Bush could hold the crack up that evening on National tv during his State of the Union?), I think papa Bush was a far better than Reagan or his son, and as close to a moderate republican President as we are likely to ever see again in our lifetime.
Mr. Pelicano @ 30:
Very well said. There are, however, some people in the military today who have actually questioned the illegal, unjust and immoral occupation in Iraq, such as the courageous Lt. Ehren Watada and the members of the IVAW [Iraq Veterans Against the War] by saying NO to the war machine of the United States. The hope is that more of those in the military will finally speak out against the occupation by emulating the example of Watada and the members of the IVAW and by seeing the documentary Sir! No Sir!, which chronicled the GI Revolt that took place at or near military bases both at home and abroad during the Vietnam conflict.
mr pelicano?
While I may understand and agree with your viewpoint that this current interdiction is not a just war.
I would like you to elaborate on your opinion of Gulf war 1.
PUH-l--e-e-e-e-ze!!!! GHWB is as bad or worse as his son (remember the adage: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree?) We just don't know all the dirty secrets - yet!!
garcia @ 13:
dude, I'm saying!
for a supposed man's man of a Texan, dude's kind of a pussy, yea?
I have heard "connected" rumors that GHWBush has been on pretty high doses of antidepressants for a long time. I suspect that the combination of age-induced conscience and the weight of the damage to this country that has been inflected by some of the things he personally has been a party to played into that. I can't say I feel badly for him. There is one way he could lighten that load: Start telling the truth... ALL of it. But alas, he is unable to do so. He clings to the fig leaf of deniability, even as it turns into a albatross.
I do think the conduct of his idiot son in the White House also weighs on him. He burst into tears on stage a couple of years ago when trying to talk about how proud he was of Jeb. (I suppose it is more than possible that there are feelings of guilt and regret related to his involvement in raising them, or lack of it. (I don't know any details there.)
I never thought the day would come when I would look back on the Career of JHWB, and say that he was a pillar of virtue compared to the current occupants.
GHWB is definitely nearing the end now. If he really struggles with any of this, he can't reverse it all, but he can play a big part in turning things around if he chose to start spilling the beans.
Unfortunately for us AND him, it'll never happen.
This dirty old fuck should cry for what he has unleashed on America and the world! His son, by acting the way his father and his father's father acted he ask shit on America and our soldiers and he wipes his ass with our constitution. HW should cry...
but notice he still has not the balls to denounce what his bastard son has done.
Poppy can take his compassion for Iraqis and shove it where the sun don't shine...
After Iraqi troops had abandoned Kuwait and were fleeing back to Baghdad, tens of thousands of them were slaughtered with bombs and incendiary bombs. They were not fighting or giving any resistance, and I'm sure they would have surrendered if asked...
Instead they were blown up and burned to death by bombs from US jets.
Compassion, MY ASS!!
"So it's tears now, is it? I've never known a man cry as easily as you father. What's my role now? To feel sorry for you? Well bravo! Congratulations! You still have tears to shed."
Posthumus Agrippa to the Emperor Augustus, "I, Claudius."
Heretofore good people (like Poppy and Powell) who made Bush's reign of terror possible are worse than Bush and Cheney. History will throw the book at 'em.
Dodd expressed pretty well that Bush put the focus on the war of choice in Iraq and didnt care for Afghanistan and Pakistan.Bush had Oussama escape in Tora Bora and had him escape at least two other times.
Furthermore the Afghan resistance structures pointed and point against Russians as to say communists. Its obvious that seed is there for some second state conversion a la Persia to Iran.
Pakistan is the next takeover target for the moolahs. Bush didnt care cause hes a fascist. He attacked pretty left leaning Iraq because hes a right wing sociopath.
The pretty much dysfunctional multi-state occupation in Afghanistan is another breeding ground for right wing extremists. Cocaine and heroine plantation is higher than ever before and - yeah well - the Taliban arent reluctunt to add some money to their own money.
But this only amplifies the need for some truthful leader - wait ah - how was this guy called? ah yeah right Oussama... ah Oussama Bin Laden. Exactly.
Musharraf saw Bhutto blow up. Well one can insinuate its been him. But? What happened since the attack? What did Bush do to ease Musharrafs troubles? A shit.
Rice blurbed, democracy must be strengthened and now shes blurbing sth about sanctions. Wheres the exit code for this man? Bush doesnt send troops, Bush doesnt send money. Bush is only proving that the situation is getting even more exitless DUE TO THE WEST. Musharraf must have a big trigger on his head and Bush is painting it bigger everyday. Bushs sold out foreign policy is topped by another total disaster. Hes in danger to have another nuclear warehouse in the middle east, after Iran now Pakistan. The geopolitical situation is deterioting fast and is becoming more multipolar each minute. The total bankruptcy of Fords interdependence and Poppy Bushs NWO is at hand. Bush doesnt care. You get the feeling its been a lie from the first minute. Were facing private warlords like Blackwater framed by revolutionary Islamofascists. The utter chaos and confusion Bush is DESIGNING only serves the purpose to spoil money into the pockets of Blackwater and Halliburton.
So what if? If Bush really knows hes never been elected president of the United States and acts upon it? If hes just filling up the bank accounts of his crownies? So when do the Russians come? When will the United States loose its postion as world leader? Wheres the impeachments, Mrs Pelosi? banana. fungho. niente. nill. Nobody seems to have the will or intention to claim from Bush his unwillingness. Due to 911. What was 911? Some Saudi scheichs in America. So they will suffer deeply from some Islamofascists in Pakistan. Sure, Mekka is in Saudi-Arabia.
http://ccoaler.blogspot.com/2007/11/dodd-on-blitzer-concerning-pakistan....
Did Wallace just LAUGH.. while saying "We werte slaughterting them?"
[deleted - please keep your blog pimping to the open thread]
It is rather common, historically, for our nation's leadership to spend their careers arming America to the teeth and then baring those teeth...only to renounce that behavior, in one way or another, later in life. Later in life being when there are no personal, political consequences for the action. Eisenhower's famous farewell address came after his two terms which solidified the military-industrial complex. Kissinger decried the massive stupidity of 'strategic' thinking on nuclear annihilation. Even Reagan decided to stand down.
Let us not forget that H. W. was presented with Gorbachev unilaterally disarming; his response was to ratchet up the military-industrial complex. He did not give a damn about sovereignty...remember Panama? Prior to Gulf War I, the U.S. had a strict policy of not caring about the Iraq/Kuwait tiff. We also supported Mr. Hussein in plenty of other ventures. Furthermore, Kuwait was a province of Iraq, until 1961 when the British chopped it off for the sake of BP. In other words, Iraq may have had a point...as terrible as that is to admit.
Mr. Gorbachev had, almost, singlehandedly brought down the Pentagon's war machine by not dithering about with treaties and agreements but with simple, unilateral disarmament. We would have had to follow suit at some point, but Gulf War I gave us the opportunity to ignore the greater opportunity presented by Mr. Gorbachev. it is telling that at almost the precise moment that H. W. was ordering his attack on Iraq, Gorbachev was ordering his troops stationed in the restive Baltic provinces back to their barracks...rather than using force to hold his empire together.
Mr. Bush's tears are real. I accept them for what they are and what they signify; however, they come too late. He was presented with an opportunity to take part in changing the world for the better. He chose keeping, and accelerating, a path towards the worst.
Sorry, folks. The UberCons will come right back and parse this interview by saying 41 was reacting to "soldiers" of a standing army, not insurgents or Al Queda fighters.
"A mock up of a tent"...."A mock up of a interview" would be more like it.
And in reference to the "slaughter" of retreating Iraqi troops and "highway of death" - every year for oh about 5 years the "Pentagon" would lower the KIA figures of the Iraqi military in Gulf War 1. I didn't buy the inflated figures to begin with. Since I can tell from comments that some people still believe this bs I'd like to point out that only in Hollywood does the driver of a vehicle conveniently drive off the road after being blown up. Just about all pictures of the aftermath of the attack show the vehicles off the road. The drivers and their occupants abandoned the vehicles. The vehicles were then destroyed by American aircraft. In addition in all the pictures and video, not shown are the quantity of Human dead a "100,000" body count would. The media was managed just as it is now.
Though I know that the War upon Iraq(Gulf 1) was totally unjustified, the idea that "enemy" troops should not be attacked just because they are retreating is stupid.
Poppy Bush is one of the main players of the Secret Government and most likely the main Puppeteer of his son. Not just his hands are bloody. His whole body is. Tears? Give me a freaking break. Why do otherwise intelligent people fall for this crap?
Peace.
Poppy: "So, we did what we said we were going to do. Had we not done that our Coalition would have ended in a minute.....
Wallace, (interrupting): "Mr. President, thank you so much."
S'matter, Chris? Conversation taking a turn "off-message"?
Putz!
wagonjak @ 49:
Well said. Your comments are reminiscent of what Howard Zinn thought as he bombed a village in France just as the war in France was winding to a close. He was a bomber pilot whose mission over that village would end up killing German soldiers even though those soldiers were essentially sitting out the remainder of their war. That is what provided the catalyst for Zinn to speak out against needless wars of aggression, which the U.S. has been involved in many times since World War II. He realized that killing those German soldiers made absolutely no sense and reflected the idiocy and immorality or war, which has manifested itself time and time again by U.S. imperialism [Vietnam, Iraq, etc].
He was about to blame the media for not showing the good side of war, but just couldn't finish his thought. So while he feels obvious emotions about what has been and is happening, he still wants to beat the talking points drum.
As far as telling him to fuck off if he wants to feel badly for something ... I'm not quite willing to go there with him. His mistakes are well documented, as are any president's. I won't begrudge him his human right to feel emotion and pain. I can respect that while still acknowledging his mistakes.
However, I wonder if I'll ever be able to feel that way about Jr. I'm convinced Jr. will grow old and be buried with his middle fingers stuck up in defiance to each and every one of us. But if (big if), he actually shows some kind of redeeming emotion twenty years from now, I will have a very hard time giving him any benefit like I am willing to do for Sr.
And before you quote me, then rant about how I'm a pussy and accuse me of ignoring the horrors brought on by either of these men, skip it. I'm fully aware of what each has been a party to. Even though I'm an agnostic, I kind of like the stuff Jesus has to say. So now and then, I'd like to be capable of letting my anger go and giving it over to Kharma. I can't do it with Jr., but I'm willing to do it for the old man.
Yeah, now fifteen years from now we can all look forward to W. having a retrospective interview about THIS Iraq war. He'll start crying when he thinks of how many "unlawful combatants" didn't get disappeared to secret prisons for torture and how much money there was for his corporate buddies still to make when the war ended.
jackpine savage @ 55:
Given the context of my post, I'd like to say that this statement is well put and fair.
I agree with Dr. Stern @47, the old man conscience of Poppy Bush is finally starting to put the screws to his brain. He has perpetrated and spawned so much evil it's gotta make Scrooge's third dream seem like a wet dream in his nightly tossing and turning.
I do think his current tears are more about his idiot son, but I don't necessarily think they're because he's a colossal fuckup. More that it has truly thrown a monkey-wrench into his *real* son Jeb's future political chances and thus, the chances for the future Bush dynasty. Happily, with all the Carlyle Group cash flowing into the coffers, he'll be able to throw mad dollars into rehabilitating Jeb's chances. Somebody's got to cover up for the Chimp just like he covered up for Poppy his first few days into office.
Oh the irony! Ole Poppy could stop the madness, but he'd rather go public with his crying and moaning instead to make himself appear like he's not connected to any of this and has no control!
I am so sick and tired of the Bush family. Please make them go away!
Mugsy @ 54:
Well that's rude.
Then again, never once have I receive a hat tip for any video I've brought attention to here, so I'm not surprised.
The turd doesn't fall far from the asshole
This reminded me on the interveiw that Murdock's pet, Chris Wallece, did with Bill Clinton: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UaNIBFSMjb8
Any discrepencies in how he treats the former presidents?
For a second I liked Bill Clinton and then the moved to the next questions (democracy in the middle east) and I remembered the empire.
robertognome @ 66:
Nor the dinglebury.
Mugsy @ 65:
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 48:
Okay, so whats left of the Constitution is the dinglebury and Bush is the shit smear from Daddy.
Sorry for the confusion earlier.
Human @ 69:
Mugsy @ 71:
So mugsy, if we click your name, we'll see the post you wanted to highlight, right?
miss_kitty @ 73:
I would say yes.
miss_kitty @ 73:
I'm not sure what you mean?
I've only posted the video on YouTube, not my personal blog, so no, you won't find it there. I do not plug my blog here and require Registration (once) to post comments there only because I get hit by so many spambots because I have NO advertising on my site (if you are looking for a link, you can find it on my YouTube page).
miss_kitty @ 73:
I've seen commenters get chastised for long posts, being told to provide links. Then when they provide links, they get chastised for blog pimping? I guess you're only allowed to link to real journalism instead of blogs, since we all know that anyone blogging isn't legitimate? I'm confused.
Stand by for moderator comment akin to "If you don't like it, you're welcome to ..." in 5, 4, 3, ...
Every time I see either Poppy Bush or Babahut, the mother, I can only shake my head sadly and think "if only she had swallowed?"
robertognome @ 66:
well pooted
US command starved 1,000,000 German POWs in WW2 and the regular forces raped many Germans. Torture type behavior is rampant in US jails. Why are we squeamish over WBing.
Maybe if we told the Truth about history we could understand our actions today.
Post a comment
apeman @ 78:
LOL! Ahhh, my inner 13 year old. What would I do without him?
Wallace: "...when we were slaughtering them..."
Hmm, something really bugs me about how that just rolls off his tongue. One can accuse others of being guilty of slaughter, we can use it euphamistically ("The Giants just SLAUGHTERED the Cowboys, woohoo!") and it clearly doesn't hold it's real meaning, but to use it in a sentence as a point of pride describing our soldiers performance in combat, as he must have been since he "supports the troops", really rings ugly with me.
PurplePatriot @ 76:
Thank you for the solidarity.
I guess I was wrong. The top post seemed to me linked to the subject and that is why I said it. A fine blog. Though I don't visit unless I comment.
Human @ 83:
There's probably an apology in there somewhere. Thanks.
“I will never apologise for the United States of America - I don’t care what the facts are,” said President George Bush Sr. in 1988, when the U.S. Navy warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial airliner. The plane was on a routine flight in a commercial corridor in Iranian airspace. All 290 civilians on board the aircraft were killed.
I think this pretty much speaks for itself ...
Maybe he needed a dry martini to steady his nerves: (From today's Palm Beach Post)
For the first time since the event's inception, former President George H.W. Bush attended the gala. He was accompanied by the former first lady, Barbara.
"My body is giving out on me," the 41st president told Page Two. "So instead of making an ass of myself on the court, I came for dinner. And two more of these," he said, lifting a dry martini, "I'll feel much better."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/local_news/epaper/2007/11/04/a...
Bottoms up, Poppy! How is that Military Industrial Complex thing working out for the Carlyle Group, by the way?
No. That was to Miss Kitty. As far as I can see I have not insulted you in anyway. When I apologize it will read like this -
"I'm truly sorry for my actions that caused you harm/insult and I hope that you will forgive me." This is followed up by some kind action if possible.
Peace.
John Barringer @ 58:
Pig Wallace also jumps in to interpret Poppy's tears as being about "the sacrifice," when we all know exactly why he is crying, because we cry for it too.
Gee the next OBVIOUS question by a for real journalist would've been "then what are your feelings about how your son is treated suspected bad guys today and what he's turned this country into? Good thing he was on Fox. (Meet the Press works here too.)
Human @ 87:
Huh, you admit you were wrong, but refuse to apologize...
"George, what are you doing moderating a Democratic Blog?"
PS: Try quoting sometime to cut down on the confusion.
Mugsy and PurplePatriot:
Remember, this is NOT your own site, this is C&L. If you don't like the rules, then yes, your only recourse is to go somewhere else.
Damian @ 91:
Remind us again what rule we violated?
I was falsely accused of "pimping my blog"; my posts were edited/deleted, and I'm being chastised for simply linking to a video I first recommended in the Sunday Morning thread as something C&L might want to share with others.
My bad.
Let's not forget HW's first major act of aggression: the illegal invasion of Panama, where the US employed, for the first time, F-117A Stealth Fighters, against a country whose entire air defenses consisted of two rusted World War II antiaircraft guns, and proceeded to air attack the El Chorrillo neighborhood (40 percent of residents children) during the night, killing several hundred (Pentagon estimate) to over 3000 (Ramsey Clark's Independent Committee of Inquiry), and wounding thousands.
Old H.W.'s been sobbing a lot the past 6+years, whenever something reminds him his idiot son is president.
And it's kinda hard to forget that.
Like forgetting an elephant with diarrhea who sits in your lap
Poppy's shedding crododile tears, weeping all the way to the (Carlisle-Group-owned) Bank with the profits of their war-profiteering deals.
and another thing: as former CIA chief, Poppy would have still had the means to have had it 'taken care of' any time he'd wanted to...
What they didn't mention in that interview was the fact that the U.S. is no longer the country it once was. The politics of fear has changed the composition of the American public. Instead of the brave we are not the scaredy-cats, at least those who listen to the Decider, the idiot in chief. Your president wants to keep you all afraid, and of what? a bunch of rag-tag fighters are going to defeat America? America will bring itself down by acting in the exact way bush and cheney have everyone acting.
America has to wake the fuck up for crying out loud.
Get off the couch and go make some noise.
Damian @ 91:
Agreed. Although that kind of reminds me of the freeper argument that if you don't like the way America is being run, to go somewhere else.
I'm sure John Amato will survive my insignificant little comment. But, still, you are a true patriot to rush to his defense. God bless you, Damian. God bless you.
Uh, yeah...now Blackwater holds US Army regulars at gunpoint?
Please...Poppy Bush gets emotional on we treated prisoners? Poppy Bush only wished at that either:
a) Bill Clinton was his son.
b) He should have named George at birth, Buck.
Otherwise, those crododile tears were weeping over his bank account and business deals that are about to foil, thanks to his son!
Shan @ 85:
An excellent example of American exceptionalism, which perhaps points to one of many reasons why the U.S. has refused to join the International Criminal Court and why so many countries around the world look upon the United States with such contempt and hatred.
Cry me a river poppy and make sure before you pass that someone gets in writing the shame and embarrassment you feel about how you son is fucking up America.
phayce@93
I was there not long ago. Nothing has been rebuild. The people are poorer than ever. A total human disaster. This family has so much power, they don't even realized when they hurt people. They are totally unaware of that fact.
Uphere @ 77:
No kidding. Not only swallowed but also chewed the source to oblivion. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Jeb.
garcia @ 103:
Yeah, I was in New Orleans recently too.
Oh, waitaminute...
So tell me Poppy Bush, did you cry with Shafig bin Laden on that infamous morning?
Mugsy@92:
I give you my support. But you have to dry clean it!
mudshark @ 40:
Over a million Iraqis civilian deaths.And almost 4000 dead Us Service personnel...and failing to up grade our military...to protect them.
Mugsy @ 92:
Mugsy, I did not see your post before the site monitor deleted it, so I can't comment on precisely why the action was taken. But I'd like to add my two cents to the concept of "blog whoring" or "blog pimping." Maybe it'll be worth more than two cents.
First, I've never really understood the metaphor. Whoring? Pimping? How is someone who links to her own blog a whore or a pimp? It seems more like a blog "parasite" then a "whore."
Secondly, while I have linked to all sorts of sites, including my own, within threads of both C&L and other prominent blogs, I have never once (to my recollection) been deleted for "whoring." And I think I know why, so let me run with my metaphor.
Ever noticed one of the main differences between television news and internet blogs? I mean besides the presentation, and the manner in which they attempt to discover and disseminate the truth. The one I actually find most striking is their attitude toward "the competition."
In television, the whole idea is to keep your viewers watching you, and you alone. You brag about yourself and trash the competition. "We're the number one news source!" "We get you the stories first!" Here's something you'll never hear on CNN: "Last week we ran an interesting story about President Bush. This week, FOX News updated that story with some more information. Go there for more information." You never want them to change the channel.
Not so on these here internets. Here you actually gain credibility by sending your readers away! It's astonishing when you think about it. Every blog has a blog roll of other places to look. And they're all listed down the side somewhere on the front page! Moreover, you will regularly find statements on C&L like, "Last week we ran an interesting story on President Bush. Fire Dog Lake has more. Go there for more information."
Why am I rambling on about this? My point is that the internet is a unique atmosphere of symbiosis. It's an environment in which you really don't survive by trying to keep all eyes on yourself. A blog that didn't let you link to somewhere else would be losing credibility in this environment.
But, like any environment wherein symbiosis is evident, there are also parasites. A parasite, needless to say, merely feeds off of the host, rather than contributes in symbiosis. All the benefit is for the parasite. None is for the host. A parasite on the internet, one might say, seeks only to attract readers to herself, without actually benefiting the host she uses to link to herself.
I think, though I suppose I can't be sure, that the reason I've never been deleted myself, despite my many links to my own writings, is that I do not appear parasitic. I'm not just showing up, and saying, "Hey, look at me!" (At least, I try not to.) If I do link to my own work, it's within the context of a discussion already taking place. It's relevant, and meant to enrich the original thread, not redirect readers from it.
I've never participated in a blog that did not allow me to link to my own work. Blogs that did that would be misreading the unique symbiotic environment that the internet has created, and likely wouldn't be very popular. But parasites are not welcome. Parasites too misread the symbiotic environment, and appear to seek the kind of attention television news channels want. A parasitic link will be deleted in the same way that the advertising execs at CNN will never sell a time slot for a FOX News ad.
So, for anyone who might be confused about the differences between links allowed to stand and links that are deleted, maybe it's worthwhile to take a step back before you press "submit," and ask yourself, "Am I being symbiotic or parastic?" It just might define the difference between "participant" and "whore." (Though I still don't get that metaphor. ;) )
California Dave @ 26:
That prick bailed out and left his comrades to die when their plane was hit. I don't have all the situational facts down precisely, but there were a lot of charges of "coward" leveled at ghwb after that incident. He only entered the service in an attempt to expunge the dishonor attached to his family name from the Nazi connections and profits of his own father.
The men of the bush family are known for their ability to easily turn on the waterworks. ghwb has the conscience of a ghoul. His only remorse is how his son is ruining the chances of the GOP for eternal domination of this country and the world.
What a fucking war whore. Tell it to the relatives of the 400 civilians your compassionate air force incinerated at the Al Amariyah bomb shelter on 2/14/91.
Somebody arrest that fucker.
Mugsy @ 90:
Bet he wishes he and ol' bar had gotten that abortion, and never spawned junior!
happy kine and the liberal media makers @ 102:
Ugh. Don't give him any ideas. Next thing you know, the Bush family will be profiting off of Papa's book about how he's so disappointed in his son. Papa, Barbara and Georgie will all link hands, and skip and laugh all the way to the bank with the money they earn off of it. :(
Karen @ 109:
Apologies. I know you weren't addressing me. But your post is interesting. I tend to find the blog community a little clique-ish. Maybe that goes with your whole [credibility by sending people away] theory. This site has it's sycophantic commenters who like to scream every time someone has the gall to say they think something is confusing or unlikeable. It's amazing how one little sentence about how someone doesn't like one little part of the overall C&L experience can set off a defensive attack Bill O'Reilley would be proud of.
While there may be some standardized reasoning as you suggest, it's the attitude of the moderators that makes it seem inconsistent. It's pretty much, "Fuck off if you don't like it." Maybe this already exists, but I wonder if there is a site mission statement that could be linked to every time this happens. I'm not talking about the rules for what will get you deleted as much as the philosophy of what the site hopes to convey, and the value it hopes to get from readers and commenters. So instead of [Deleted - Fuck off if you don't like it.], it could be [Deleted - link to mission statement]. But I think that just the simple fact that I suggest this makes it incredible to the day to day operators of this site.
I can say this much ... I come here for the comments of people like yourself. I don't come here for news, or the commentary of the contributors. The commentary of the contributors is valuable. But it's quite often very short. I think this site goes for quantity of posts, rather than quality of commentary by the poster. That's okay with me ... but given that, I enjoy the comments section. That's why I come back.
I did not read all of the posts, the question that has been on my mind all along, is which bush made the biggest blunder in the history of mankind, was it the father or the son? I have to think, that if the father had of taken Saddam out, we would not be bogged down in Iraq today. But we know what Prescott, thought of the US also. Damn the bush's to hell.
Straight Shooter @ 110:
Whats significant about the incident is a couple things: The Avenger he was flying was designed for waterborne landings in emergencies, but to expect Bush to try this rather than bail out is not something any observer 60 years later can make. His gunner and co pilot never lived, only one bailed out and his chute apparently never opened, meaning Bush leaving the aircraft when he did could possibly not have given him enough time to get out and deploy his chute.
The most damning incident, however, is what happened after Bush hit the water. In 4 hours he was picked up by a submarine. All other 13 pilots who bailed out over or near Chi Chi Jima were never rescued. Most were picked up by Japanese patrol boats, only to be killed later on the island. I believe Bush was the only survivor of those shot down.
Pretty lucky or someone went to great lengths for one pilot.
Karen @ 109:
To clear the confusion, in post #38, I noted how I too had just posted the same video to YouTube. Earlier in the Sunday Talk thread, I mentioned the segment and promised to post the clip for everyone. I posted the link along with the description I gave it.
In post#54 (the deleted post), I realized I had stupidly forgotten to include Poppy defending the decision NOT to invade Baghdad, and posted that I had deleted the video I had just linked to in #38.
Moderator "Human" saw fit to delete my post, accusing me of "pimping my blog". I have not posted the video to my blog.
Later when "Human" admits he was wrong to another poster, he makes a point of telling me he was not apologizing to "me" and felt he had not insulted me in any way.
I believe it is simply a case of an over zealous Moderator.
oh...and nice guy that he is,Poppy Bush bailed on his co-pilot and gunner.....just watch the interview...and watch his face......
Human @ 112:
Nice.
Mugsy @ 118:
Mugsy says "Moderator “Human” saw fit to delete my post" LOL. Now really, PISS OFF.
Papa Bush was probably thinking about his son Jeb..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJHCRVs4AY
Mugsy @ 75:
What I mean is that you have your url in the post (click my name and see what you get! :lol: ). So if people click your name, like I did, they'll be magically transported to your blog... :)
odanny @ 117:
I cannot judge in hindsight, especially since I'm no aviation expert, what bush could or couldn't have done. I'm just reiterating that at the time there was a great deal of speculation as to how quickly he probably acted to save his own a** and leave the others to die. I might speculate that he was not known as a man of courage amongst his comrades, anyway; thus, the suggestions by others at that time that he was a coward.
I would surmise, however, that his reaction was pretty much the same as gwb on the morning of September 11, 2001; that is to say, initial paralysis followed by an instinct to save his own hide and let others pick up the pieces.
I wasn't aware ghwb was the only one rescued, and 13 were abandoned. I don't think he was lucky, except for being Prescott's son. Wasn't Prescott a prominent figure at the time?
Bush was installed into office by a cabal who was tired of the Clinton-style liberalism.
Pop is part of it.
My goodness! Stupidity is getting contagious in the Bush family.
Poppy is better left out of view.
In my moments of weakness, I feel for Poppy Bush. But then I remember he raised his son, he kept him out of Vietnam, indulged him, and put his political machine behind him when he ran for president. He has chosen loyalty to his arrogant, immature, frat boy pseudo cowboy son over the good of the nation. He should have led an Oval Office intervention. Instead, he and Barbara and Laura and Condi and the rest of the Bushes are ENABLERS.
Poppy Bush should weep for what HE has done by letting his arrogant,irresponsible, incompetent namesake loose on the nation and the world.
How about Poppy's connections to Carlyle? The asshole is a war profiteer. Was he hoping for a kinder gentler WAR? Fuck him to hell.
Indigowatcher @ 3:
Sad is not exactly what I would call it although I agree with you. It is a tragedy of epic proportions, a son who has lied, and been directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives based on that lie is far more than sad, it is a crime against humanity as vast as the crimes this country has railed against and at times been in collusion with. His tears would have some value if he stepped up to the plate as only he could. His one effort was a pale attempt when so much more could be done to stop this madness.
Go ahead and let it out, sir — the nation weeps with you for what your son has done in our name.
For sure. The whole world is weeping.
Madeleine Albright said "America is the indispensible nation," but, oddly, most of us would like to dispense with it now!!!!!!!!
I kind of wonder if Momma had more part in raising son, than the Poppa. The heartless thought she had toward those that are not better off than the elite.
An Average Joe @ 12:
I want me one of those t-shirts!!!
There are vids of him crying 4 his loser sons on YouTube. That's where my YouTube stalker is. He sends me stuff all the time for comments I made there. A real right-wing piece of work type. He gets enraged, I just laugh.
Tears more likely are over the plummeting American dollar. Devaluation is hard to take when you have a bundle. His Saudi and European friends can flee the US buck but I suspect he may be a little more heavily invested in the greenback.
This is the 134th response. Nobody will read it, but what the hell; I've just got to puke my guts out. Papa Bush is so full of crap, I have to puke my guts out. Does anyone out there have a list of his cruel misdeeds? It may not be as long as the one for the creep he spawned, but it's plenty long.
This clip drips with irony. W is a torturer and a foreign policy fuckup. Senior knows it. But he's spent his life building up his family's wealth and power. This guy is too blinded by family loyalty to fully admit the tragedy of the second Bush presidency.
Maybe his tears are sincere - who gives a damn?
Fuck all the Bushes and all they stand for.
Uncontrollable weeping is a sign of a stroke.
pfeld @ 135:
I read it. Puke away. I'm right there dry-heaving beside you. I tossed my last chunks long ago.
Canada is far from perfect, but when I look at these bastards, I thank my lucky stars I'm north of the border.
And now - thanks to the American Fascist State Neocons AND their chorus of media Talking Heads apologists - INCLUDING Wallace, Russert, Matthews, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Coulter, Ingrham, etc., etc., The American Military no longer have the respect of the rest of the world. Now we are a monster - feared and reviled.
That SO sucks.
*
like father like son, the whole bush family is fucking crazy and insensitive.
That was a joke.
Wallace is no journalist.
Bush was clearly willing not only to continue but to talk to issues that are salient today and Wallace stopped the interview ostensibly for commercial service.
Pathetic.
L.A. Confidential @ 126:
Clinton was no liberal. In some sense Clinton is part of it all... just watch him snooze with Poppy. And for better effect watch his wife shoot the shit with Murdock.
Same shit different asshole. Bush I, Clinton I, Bush II, Clinton II... I am thrilled! Are we a kingdom yet...
Oh really .... The Ghosts are starting to haunt this man...
He is responsible for legions of rotting corpses of all ages and sex's from many many many countries...
He is responsible for untold horrors ... and those in his club feast on the soul of mankind...
His emotions are as usual fake, premeditated....and issued to serve a purpose....
Unless of course his faith in the cannibalistic system he helped create is laid siege up by the millions of dead he is responsible for...
What an interesting movie script that is... the mighty king, trapped in his castle... approaching his last breaths....and the dead he is responsible for....the dead he gloried in.... are now coming to take him away....
Its just a ride...
its hard to imagine that his son wouldn't listen to his father...then again, i'm sure baby bush is convinced 'we don't torture'. His dad and the woman whom they call 'mother' should have treated his son more like a human being; had given his little sister a proper funeral instead of going to play golf; reprimanded for attempting to drown children in the pool; and should have gotten psychiatric help after seen sticking firecrackers up frog's butts. It's all in Bush on the couch by Justin Frank. here's the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_on_the_Couch
Bush 41 should have pulled out of Babs
PurplePatriot @ 98:
Ah, so it's all about poor little you, OH PITY AND SIN you can't whore yourself here. And of course you have to troll by flamebaiting me with your pissy little U IS JUST LIEK TEH FREEPERZ comment.
I think I've had my fill of your trolling. Get out.
STOP George @ 2:
Our nation would have been better served if he'd died at Midway. This sanctimonious prick and his war-profiteer cronies at the Carlyle Group is a true American Fascist. Those fake
tears are fooling no one.
Go ahead and let it out, sir — the nation weeps with you for what your son has done in our name.
Poppy isn't weeping for what has been done in our name, he is weeping for what has been done to his.
this freak poppy sure likes to cry,he must have something wrong with his tear ducts,i refuse to believe hes got a heart...at least one that isnt black and shriveled with hatred
Indigowatcher @ 14:
that's complete and utter bullshit.....he's a lying sack of shit....
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