McCain blasts Giuliani over Waterboarding comments
By John Amato Monday Nov 05, 2007 11:00am
This is just crazy talk by Rudy:
I do know a lot about intensive questioning and intensive questioning techniques. … Now, intensive questioning works. If I didn’t use intensive questioning, there would be a lot of mafia guys running around New York right now and crime would be a lot higher in New York than it is. Intensive question has to be used.
What the f*&k is he talking about? Did he round up the local mob guys with his BFF---Bernie Kerik (we all make mistakes, right?) and break out the rubber hoses? I was saddened when McCain signed on to that monstrous Military Commissions Act, but he slams Rudy over his demented waterboarding statements.
“When someone says waterboarding is similar to harsh interrogation techniques used against the mafia in New York City, they do not have enough experience to lead our military,” McCain said Sunday night at a town-hall meeting here.
Decent people don't have to have been in the service or tortured themselves to know it's wrong. McCain is a bloodthirsty right wing warmonger. But he's not an outright sadist. That is the range of what passes for morality among the GOP candidates. And by the way, he's losing because of it.
Sadism sells!
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Televised political interviews would be a lot more interesting if journalists could water board.
So, our political discourse and campaigns have been rendered down to a debate as to which candidate is Torquemada and which one is Caligula?
If you're only the Marques de Sade, are you labeled a moderate?
Digby is right. The Republicans have become the Torture Macacas party.
Now if Giuliani can only think of a genteel way to introduce lynching into the conversation . . .
of course
guiliani is referring
to Abner Louima
he is very skilled with
the plunger
heh...
ysbaddaden @ 1:
Or if they could be waterboarded.
JLee @ 5:
Katie Couric first. Perky little wench...
Well, Guiliani's police force knows a lot about intensive questioning techniques, that's for sure. I thought he condemned his force's extreme use of toilet plungers though... Guess not anymore.
If we elect this guy say goodbye to any remaining freedoms and hello to a corporate run police state just as NYC has become. Anyone who knew this city before and after "America's Mayor" knows it's soul has been sucked out and replaced by "security". And we all know what someone who values security over freedom deserves.
they do not have enough experience to lead our military,” McCain saidThat is painfully obvious by the actions taken for the last 7 years by those dirtying the WH and this country.
Fanon @ 6:
Really? I say the Fox News All-Stars of O'Reilly, Hannity, and Hume.
Giuliani time, now wheres me plunger.
5 JLee Says: ysbaddaden @ 1:
Televised political interviews would be a lot more interesting if journalists could water board.
Or if they could be waterboarded.
Sorry I was spacing out for a sec.
I've been doing that alot the past few decades.
Eh fuck em both. They're both horrible people in their own ways. Different sides of the same twisted coin. Digby's wrong though. McCain's not losing because he's against torture (and I'm not even sure that's accurate). He's losing because even the backwater hillbillies can see he changes positions every time the wind shifts. "Bob Jones university is evil.... oh look! I got an invitation to speak! Bob Jones university is awesome!" etc. All of the GOPers (except maybe Paul) have no problem contorting and changing their positions at the drop of a hat, but him and Romney are the worst.
Just listened to Stephen Grey on D.Now apologising on behalf of journalists for ever saying it was "simulated drowning", he said it was actual drowning, controlled at the last second to avoid death. His doc on Extr. Rendition is on Frontline tonite.
Maybe a few people will skip Dancing with The Celebrity Train Wrecks or whatever (Earl dont have no steenking cable) and watch it.
Frontline tonite:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/
stories/rendition701/
There'd be alot of mafia guys running around new york. Yes Rudy, Some might even get to be mayor.
Fine* American Waterboarding by Feinstein-Schumer LLC. *we use only Vichy Sparkling Mineral Water…
Guiliani does not know what he is talking about. There is a big difference between waterboarding and harsh interrogation techniques. The difference is, in my opinion, waterboarding is dilerberately hands on. Meaning, the interrogator(s) physically pressures or injures a suspect with the waterboarding technique to gain information. Heck this is right along the same lines with pulling out fingernails, electric shock or some other method. If Guiliani can not see the difference then I wonder what he approved law enforcement to do in New York to obtain information from Mafia members?
I used to work for a water board. There were 6 of us on the board. It was torture sitting through the meetings.
But I did not realize it was this big of a deal....WOW!
I am kidding guys/gals....just putting out stuff because I am getting frustrated by the impotence of our elected democratic officials in stoping this administration's horrendous policies and lying.
Ok...i never really worked for a water board...ok...ok...this white jacket suits me well.....
As expected, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 11-8 to send the nomination of Judge Michael Mukasey to the full Senate for confirmation as Attorney General. As the AP reports, Democrats Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) provided the decisive votes after accepting "his assurance to enforce any law Congress might enact against waterboarding." Sadly for Schumer, Feinstein and the American people, Congress in 2005 already passed a law express forbidding waterboarding and other interrogation techniques amounting to torture. And President Bush already issued a signing statement declaring he would ignore it.
For the details, see:
"Waterboarding the Constitution: Mukasey and Bush's 2005 Signing Statement."
OMG!! Please....PLEASE make this guy your GOP candidate!!!
Rudy's never been responsible as a mayor, either.
All good that's happened-- and ever will happen-- to New York, you can credit Rudy.
He is the Jesus of the Big Apple.
Rudy is one the biggest political con job ever foistered on the American people. My fear is that the average Joe out there will just see the strutting Mussolini aspect of Rudy, and think he's "my kind of Alpha male", and those Evangelicals will back him because he's the Right's one hope against Hilary. You know a Hilary candidacy will bring out the personal attack ads. A Hilary-Rudy campaign would
be a field day for it. I just hope the DNC is cataloguing these amazingly stupid remarks Rudy regularly comes up with. Saw him doing a smarmy Hilary imitation the other day....wonder why he didn't dress
up like her too.
With all the talk about water boarding and the demonstrations of it being shown on tv lately, I wonder how long it will be before we see a news story about some 14-year-old kid being killed because his friends thought it would be fun to try it.
McCain comes across as nothing better than schizoid. He can complain about the torturer advocates all he wants but it means less than nothing so long as he uses his votes to support actual torturers. He needs to put his votes where his mouth is or STFU.
I just looked over Guiliani's bio. In all cases Guiliani served as a U.S. Attorney or Associate Attorney General in which he supervised various law enforcement agencies. His entire career has revolved around the law and prosecuting criminals. He has never been and doubt never been around any form of actual intelligence gathering and probably has never seen any interrogation first hand. In other words, Guiliani has always been a high priced lawyer and couldn't possibly know what the difference between harsh interrogations and torture techniques. McCain on the other knows all to well. In fact, I bet the Vietnamese waterboarded him a time or two.
donitacurioso @ 24:
Worse still and what I fear the most: People like Guiliani advocating the use of waterboarding and other torture techniques directly upon American citizens for a wide variety of reasons.
Joe, O., I think you might be right. It's hard to close that door once it's opened.
The Battle of the Twits.
Maybe Giuliani should have done some of his intensive questioning of his good
Friend Kerik.
Giuliani you are an IDIOT!!!!!
Angry One @ 19:
wha what??
Ya mean Rudy "let me ask some questions with this plunger" Giuliani was lying when he said it was unreasonable of politicans to ask Mukasey to do something they hadnt??
The Hell you Say!!
wouldnt Dumbya call that "revisionist history"?
GIULIANI’S ULTIMATE BOAST: ‘I WATERBOARDED SQUEEGEE MEN’
Joe O. @ 17:
he was okay with having an innocent student shot 42 times.
I want to personally waterboard Feinstein in a dirty trucker's stop restroom.
Same goes to Jerry Falwell... Gah, darn it! He's roasting in hell already. Nevermind then. Let's waterboard John Hagee instead! While we're at it, let's throw in the Faux Noise network too.
As Venini mentions above, Abner Louima, a Haitian immigrant was sodomized with a plunger, repeatedly, by NYPD officers. Is this the kind of "intensive questioning" to which Giuliani refers?
Giuliani is proud of his record as the Northern, somewhat less obvious, version of Bull Connor.
He is a disgusting human being.
Joe O. @ 27:
You mean like "Homeland Security" fighting crime by tying it, through association to "terrorismers"??
Between my politicians refering to our country as the "homeland" and privatization of the Police in this country , Im thinking it might be time to leave guys.
Like for real. There have got to be better places to live than what America has become.
Here's a suggested question for the republican youtube presidential debate
"The United States charged Japanese officer, Yukio Asano with war crimes in 1947 for carrying out waterboarding on a U.S. civilian, he was sentenced to 15 years hard labor. If members of his family petitioned for a presidential commutation from a war crime to just an assault, would you grant it? (assuming the president can do that) and if not why not?"
The debate about whether we should be using torture or not under "certain circumstances" can rage on , but one thing is certain, waterboarding is torture no matter the circumstance. Call it what it is.
stop the insanity @ 33:
its was Giuliani's lucky number.
did he get any info out of the student?
So, theoretically, if you're a Mafia guy convicted in NY, you should be asking for a new trial. Rudy will back up your claim that your confession was coerced.
Interpreter of Maladies @ 22:
uuuuuuh, what new york are you referring to? surely not the racial profiling, 42 shots, plunger in the ass, 2 buildings down, no communications for firemen, motorola no-bid contract, bernard kerik era new york?
He sounds like the kind of fruitcake you dont want to have to sit next to on the subway. I think he's gone mental. Which I think is a new qualifier for GOP candidacy.
I thought he was clear.
Torture is defined as illegal interrogations.
If you want to rip people's fingernails off, then legalize it. Then it won't be torture.
In his view, if you want to burn people's hands and feet off with a blow torch, then legalize this activity and it won't be torture.
"It's good and wholesome." - Rush Limbaugh on Torture.
This guy comes off like a capo who wants to be boss of the whole outfit.
Can you imagine if Rudy actually gets elected POTUS? The swearing-in will be held in an olive oil warehouse in Queens and the Oath of Office will be administered by a made guy named Guido dressed in a pin-striped suit and a pinky ring.
Instead of a Vice President, he'll have a Consigliere. Instead of a cabinet, he'll have a Crew. The Joint Chiefs will be his Soldiers.
nigel @ 37:
How bout this.....
Keep the first sentence, change "waterboarding" to "torture" then change second sentence to something like , in light of the threats we face as a nation, do you think that those who use torture on private contractors in Iraq receive a punishment comparable to the Japanese officer Yukio Asano. If not why aren't U.S. citizens protected from being tortured by foreign agents ?
Then the moderator could reveal that the method used, after they all UNANIMOUSLY declare that they will hang any terrorismer that tortures americans, the method used was WATERBOARDING.
then they can all look like jack-asses.
I mean Russert seems to love that kind of political ambush style of questioning,
Except he goes the extra mile and misrepresents the truth.
But thats another rant entirely.
nigel @ 37:
Amen. As Murrow said, it's a mistake to believe that every argument has two equally valid sides.
Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal.
Pretending that there's even a shred of validity to claims that we're protecting America by doing this is to stand as a willing accomplice - yet this is what the candidates and people like Feinstein and Schumer are doing.
>Between my politicians refering to our country as the “homeland”
Always thought it didnt sound right unless it had "Zee..." in front of it, spoken by a nice man in a black trenchcoat.
Amato, McCain is my senator - sadly. He IS NOT taking a principled stand. He is fighting a tactical fight against an opponent. When his interests are at stake, he has no principles.
He has and will get on his knees to anyone to ensure his personal gain. That goes all the way back to G.H.W. Bush and the republican convention.
You watch too much 'TV'.
Weaseldog @ 42:
he said the same about Oxycontin.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/rushletters1.html
Rudy missed his calling. He should have been assigned a camp in the Third Reich
And these people have the gall to complain about games like Grand Theft Auto and Manhunt 2 ...
So is Rudy a Mets fan or a Yankees fan?
To this day, no one really knows for sure.
Yellowbird @ 49:
too young, hes still bummed he missed out though.
I have visions of mafia figures getting a good laugh about Rudy's toughness. He is such a joke. Why would any sane person even consider voting for Rudy? He portrays himself as a 9/11 hero. He was hated in NYC before 9/11 and still is by many. Does Rudy really believe we have all forgotten what he was and that now we love him enough to elect him to the highest office in our land. God help us.
Giuliani DOES know what he is talking about. He made his bones as a fighting, tough-on-organized-crime federal prosecutor in (as I recall) the Southern District of New York state. He put some of the most famous people in organized crime behind bars -- and you don't get thugs like them to rat each other out by asking them "pretty please tell us what you know" and slapping their hands when they refuse to answer.
The funniest thing about the anti-torture crowd (I'm against torture, too) is that most of them seem to think that what's happening at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and elsewhere is a step away from traditional American police methods. Truth is that waterboarding is more sophisticated than traditional American police methods, and in fact it is less brutal than most such methods. (i.e.: which NY cop shoved his night-stick up the ass of which black suspect a few years ago?)
Some of you would profit by getting yourselves arrested on a violent felony rap. When the cops interrogate you, don't answer their questions. See what happens next.
Giuliani was a federal cop. Giuliani KNOWS what happens next. That's probably why he thinks waterboarding is no big deal.
What the F**K dreamland is idiot Giuliani living in?
First of all, if there were any meetings with top NY mafia, Rudy didn't call them, he just attended, as ordered.
Secondly, he's stupid, but not stupid enough to ask questions of them other than 'How High'?
The only questions asked would have been among the boys themselves, after the meeting, like "How does that Goombah find his ass to wipe?'
urizon @ 35:
My first thought as well. And don't forget Amadou Diallo. Am I to take the repub stance is "so far so good, more of the same"?
Yo Mafia,
Ya gonna let this sacko-shit badmouth ya like this forever or what?
Jimmy Montague @ 54:
Decades of daily torture, then a bullet through the head when you no longer serve a useful political purpose?
I see your point. Cases get solved quicker if you just pick up anyone with opportunity, then torture them for as long as it takes to get a confession. Then you're done. Case closed.
By some estimates over a million people were determined to have had sex with Satan by these means. They were given a choice of being burned alive at the stake or allow thier torture to continue. Most confessed and chose to be burned alive at the stake. Proving that they did in fact consort with Satan.
george bush with brains...sorta
Rudy's trying to pander to the LGFies
Jimmy Montague @ 54:
You're a laugh riot. You're against torture, but defend Giulani because 'he knows the score'?
This relative scale of evils is what will destroy this country in a heartbeat.
Oh, puhleeeze! Everybody knows the U.S. does not torture. We use "enhanced interrogation techniques", duh!
a href="#comment-308096" >Jimmy Montague @ 54:
If you can go ahead and give me a statistic that is even 1/10th of that number I'd be very impressed.
The fact of the matter is, the U.S. army waterboards every single U.S. Special Ops soldier so they are ready for it if they eventually get it. Do you honestly think the U.S. military would intentionally cause seriouse damage to a soldier that they have invested so much time, money and effort into? Torture is electroshock, physical harm (beating, etc).
Intensive interigation is waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc. There's a vast difference between the two.
I'm also curious if anyone can point me to a mayor who cut crime so much in his city that it effected national crime statistics (Giuliani) who did it by just asking the criminals to "pretty please stop killing people". Another question, if everyone here is so zealous in the belief that they know law enforcement and interrigation better then the people trained in it, can you give me a way that you would have gotten information the same information out of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi that the CIA got? (already confirmed to have stopped somewhere in the order of 3-4 attacks on American soil, but most are still classified).
Maybe when we live in a perfect world where ununiformed combants stop blowing up civilian markets or busses full of children we can get information out of criminals by asking nicely, but I'm not going to shed a tear over a sleep deprived baby killer, thanks.
It's been evident and this video certainly supports it as well, guilliani is running completely on his "heroic" efforts during 911. His comments directed at mccain, no i don't know about torture than mccain, but mccain doesn't know how to run a city. he has never been responsible for the welfare of all of the citizens of that city." Oh yes, Guilliani is the big brother we all never had. he is braver than the police and more diligent than the firefighters. if he did such a great job, why do the people of new york despise him? His comments regarding torture and his comments that are directed at mccain must be disseminated throughout the heartland in language that they can understand. Pick him off first, there is so much there to focus on, and then go after whoever is number two. Well, i guess they all are pretty much number two.
All of you who would support Guilliani, you in essence are telling McCain, POW McCain, that he doesn't know what he is talking about. "“When someone says waterboarding is similar to harsh interrogation techniques used against the mafia in New York City, they do not have enough experience to lead our military,” McCain said Sunday night at a town-hall meeting here. What you are saying is that Guilliani knows more about the torture issue learned while sitting behind his desk in NYC than McCain garnered in his years of incarceration in Hanoi. McCain is not my candidate, but in this instance, i'll take his experience over dandy rudy any day of the week.
Has anybody asked any of the Mafia guys that Rudi interrogated if they were waterboarded?
Guilliani is a liar and a fake.
Rainsford
I’m also curious if anyone can point me to a mayor who cut crime so much in his city that it effected national crime statistics (Giuliani) who did it by just asking the criminals to “pretty please stop killing people”.
He affected national crime statistics by shoving all of his crime out of the city. Ask Brooklyn how they feel about "America's Mayor".
Rainsford @ 63:
And you're basing this on personal experience, or your own out-of-your-ass reality?
Really, Dr. Mengele? Please, enlighten us humble mortals.
A crime-free city is not the point. Accepting the use of torture is the subject at hand. I could drastically reduced teenage pregnancies by having teenagers (both boys and girls) sterilized - that doesn't make it a sensible or morally valid practice.
Oh, and the CIA never had Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in custody. He was killed when we bombed his safe house. You must be thinking of Abu Zubyadah, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, or Khalid Sheik Mohammed.
The 3 or 4 plots you mention were? The liquid-bomb nonsense was out of the U.K, and the 'supposed' attacks on a base in Germany were foiled by police work, not Jack Bauer.
Therefore, because evil men exist, it's okay to sink to their level?
Oh, and the word for a person who doesn't feel remorse about the pain inflicted on another, even a criminal ... is sociopath.
Not patriot.
shadowgm
I am humbled....
"Intensive questioning" is the new "Enhanced interrogation techniques."
t
I lived in NYC when Rudy Frutti was U.S. Attorney. As I recall, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Giuliani went after the high profile mafia bosses, and he lost both his big high-profile trials against Gotti. It was his successor who got Gravano to testify, and got the conviction. If you google john gotti conviction, you get links to the newsday articles about the US Attorney who actually did bust the mafia in NYC. Rudy didn't do jack; he's just savvy enough to get a lot of face time on t.v.
And Saint John will stay with this line until the focus groups reveal that the lizard brained republican primary base voter just LOOOVEs themselves some torture. Look then for the flip flop.
@sshole. He likes to put himself up, by bringing others down. That's just scummy.
Is he saying he waterboarded the mafia in his office? I wonder if he did that in drag?
Hey Rudy, by "Intensive questioning" do you mean torture? If so, then why don't you just come out and say it you chickenshit Asspublican.
Put the emergency response center in the WTC.
Nice.
Is he a dominatrix?
Oh..
So now torture is called "intensive questioning?"
Just trying to keep all the bullsh it terms straight.
Where do they find these people?
How do we give them back?
68 Shadowgm Says: You tell 'em. Well done. I'm not sure I would have said sociopath. Sadist sprang to my mind. Rainsford is a sadist.
Rainsford @63
The waterboarding you speak of against our own spec ops happens in SERE school. Been there. Done that. It's just a familiarity session - it wouldn't do any good to be breaking or killing our warriors. The instructors make sure doesn't persist. Same with the stress positions. Their job is to expose without doing harm. It's a school.
The torturers, on the other hand, make it last. And waterboarding will break anybody. If continued, the victim will drown. If any stress positions are held, most victims will be dead of coronary failure within 72 hours. (What do you think crucifixion is - just one more stress position).
Torture is an ultimate moral failure. It is a certain sign that a people has betrayed its own humanity and collectively sunk to a level that is lower than an animal. Nothing justifies it, and that is why the rest of the world considers it a crime against humanity.
If you really believe what you say, there are words that describe what you are: Sociopath. Borderline psychopath. Monster. Amoral.
Jimmy Montague @ 54:
Because they do it, it must be OK? Real tough he-man stuff, eh? Or just thoughts from a sick little perverted mind?? Go back whence you came: join your sick friends.
Jimmy Montague @ 54:
Some of you would profit by getting yourselves arrested on a violent felony rap.
Sorry, but I am not a violent felon. Many abductess are law abiding family men. See Arar case, Canada.
I will say this about rudy giuliani.
Considering that he can go THIS long with his pants on fire, he, himself, may be impervious to torture.
Unfortunately for those of us listening...
Ahhh to hell with waterboarding his ass... Way too easy, in his particular case... Fagitaboutit... Give em a cement overcoat instead and plant his flip-floppin lyin ass in the new foundation at the twin towers site.. He's such a fan of 9/11 it would be extreme poetic justice in his case... I just bet there's a NYFD or two or three dozen who'd be happy to mix the mortar and probably a NYPD or three dozen who'd stand by cheerin em on and providing security....Ehh, I'm not sayin... I'm just sayin.....heheh, oh don't blows yer kool sitecats, it ain't gonna happen... I'm just wishin....
Besides, if people like Dobson and Pat Boone and Don Wildmon et al, can carp pointlessly about porn in the military and turn people against people in the real world just because of who some people prefer to be intimate with that doesn't jive with these bigots narrow view of the world...The kind of agititing that causes real violence against real people..? Then what's a little fantasy on a blog, wishin for a little evening up karma against a true one hundred percent prick??...JD
McKissass can't have it both ways. He virtually voted to give the authority to the president to do what he damned well pleases. Even though he was tortured, it's more important to cater to the Right than to thorougly be against torture.
McCain is a victim of torture, and look at the results to his mind--permanently deformed.
Yo, Ghouliani,
If waterboarding isn't a crime, then why did America try, convict and hang Japanese officers for waterboarding prisoners in World War Two?
Fact is, torture is a war crime according to the Geneva Convention, an international treaty signed by the United States. The Geneva Convention does not recognize BushCo's bogus "illegal combatants" definition, nor its "enhanced interrogation," both of which bullshit euphemisms were cooked up to cover Bush's ass. Defining away torture will not impress the judges at the Hague, when George and Dick finally face real justice.
Edwin says @ No. 82: Because they do it, it must be OK? Real tough he-man stuff, eh? Or just thoughts from a sick little perverted mind?? Go back whence you came: join your sick friends.
No. I'm not a real tough he-man and don't think of myself so. I merely point out the fact that this shit (and worse) has been going on for years and none of you paid it any mind until it all of a sudden became "official policy." NOW you're worried about it.
In Giuliani's day as a prosecutor, prisoners who'd been tortured were said to have "fallen down the stairs" at the police station. Some of them actually fell down the stairs so many times that they died. Nobody paid it any mind then. Now all of a sudden it's big news. I don't think it's laudable or desirable or effective as policy. I just think it's laughable that the middle class is just now picking up on the fact.
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