November 12, 2007 06:03 PM
David Kuo Counters Sam Brownback
Brownback is scaring me. The GOP will succeed to the "the degree that it is faith-filled." Hello? The GOP will win if it is religious? What a terrifying, terrifying thought. If anyone needs further proof as to what the GOP will become if it tries to become a church, look no further than the current White House.
That is exactly and precisely wrong. America doesn't need the GOP to be more faith-filled. It needs our churches to be more faith-filled. It needs individuals and families to be more faith-filled. It needs priests and pastors to be more faith-filled. It does not need a political party to be more faith-filled.
It is this fusion of faith and politics that is destroying both faith AND politics. Read on...
Didn't Brownback drop out of the race?
As a devastating drought continues to parch the Southeast, Republican Governors in Georgia and Alabama are turning to divine intervention to help replenish their dwindling water supplies. In Atlanta, Governor Sonny Perdue held a public vigil at the state house Tuesday to "pray up a storm." His plea follows on the heels on Alabama Governor Bob Riley's week-long "Days of Prayer for Rain" in June.
As then-Governor George W. Bush showed with his 2000 proclamation of "Jesus Day," prayer is now a centerpiece of the Republican approach to public policy. And with the GOP fallen on hard times, Governor Perdue is hardly the only Republican turning to prayer in search of better days.
For the details, see:
"Georgia Governor Perdue and the Top 10 Republican Prayers."
We don't need anyone to be any more faith filled. Faith is bad for you.
Faith compels you to continue believing things despite a lack of evidence, nay, BECAUSE of a lack of evidence. Faith encourages you to blind yourself to the world around you and to invest your most cherished asset, your worldview, in the unverified claims of hucksters and ripoff artists.
We need this nation to become more reason-based, not more faith-based.
To embrace evidence, not revelation, as the source of knowledge and understanding.
And to dedicate ourselves to constant review and necessary revision of our knowledge, not to embrace dogma.
Reject anyone who appeals to your faith. They're looking for a way to control you.
To hell with them.
JasonS @ 3:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.
Although I follow your reasoning Nicole,my feeling is that its time we STOPPED operating on Faith, period.I'd like to see "Churches" start popping up where people could go and reaffirm their morals and values based upon reason,science and the arts for example.
Where they could raise questions about the nature of things and whether or not God even exists.Where they could submerge themselves in music(Mozart),philosophy(is God dead?)art(Chagall?)and science.(the relationship between Quantum Physics and Buddhism perhaps).A place to better ourselves and our world,but enough already with "Faith".
Angry One @ 2:
Further proof why science is being ignored. I believe Prayer is a good thing, but not to ask for things that mankind can fix itself.
Faith destroyed itself long ago as did politics. We just need to keep them seperate so they don't completly ruin America.
David Kou wrote a book, "Tempting Faith", about how Bush used the Christians to gain votes, right? Well his evangelical buddies used Christians to promote bigotry, anti-science agendas, and homophobia. Why don't we get an apology!? We are the ones that suffered! Sam Brownback and David Kou are just disgusting opportunists. When America becomes more liberal David Kou jumps on the bandwagon and pretends that he was ignorant of what Pat Robertson preaches.
Huh? The GOP wants more faith-based government? I would think they would be ready to try reason and logic. But then again, looking at their media outlets like Faux News, reason and logic come in at a distant last...
JasonS @ 3:
I firmly believe that if we hold this course, faith will be dead and extremism will take it's place.
Faith is not a bad thing as long as people stay objective about the world.
pinkobait @ 5:
It's called the Unitarian Universalist Association.
The Populist @ 6:
Well said man well said.
And if MLK had limited himself to appealing to people's "faith," we'd still have a segregated South.
The Klan was a Christian organization, too.
This isn't about what men of faith, or communities of faith, have done. Clearly some of the greatest achievements in history were accomplished by men and women of faith.
But some of the greatest achievements in history were accomplished by slave owners. By men who sooner give their dog the vote than a woman.
The question is, need I believe in the divinity of the man from Galilee to expect fair treatment from my government?
Chris H. @ 7:
Here's the problem...why can't we welcome David Kuo instead of tearing him down? Everybody makes mistakes and he has admitted his. He's done a lot to challenge the Robertsons, Bushes and other of their ilk for sometime now.
Why can't we welcome those who become disillusioned? Kuo never murdered anybody or started unnecessary wars.
CD @ 11:
Thanks man...I think we all need to wake up and stop mixing our personal faith into our government. If Jesus were alive today, he'd be branded a liberal and shunned.
The Populist Says:
Faith is not a bad thing as long as people stay objective about the world.
But you can't rightly have both, can you? Faith is belief despite adequate evidence. Objectivity is about drawing conclusions based on a fair weighing of evidence.
If by "faith" we mean confidence that, no matter what the outcome, we have made just and reasonable choices, then I'm all for it.
If by "faith" we mean perseverance in the face of adversity, again I'm with you.
If by "faith" we mean firm belief in statements of fact backed only by personal revelation, that's madness.
Hey Pop-why do you assume "extremism" would take the place of Faith?
It is Faith that has kept our world mired in wars and ignorance for centuries.
Of course many great works of art have been created in the name of God,but it seems to me that its time to leave mysticism alone and begin to truly investigate the true nature of things.
JasonS @ 12:
The Klan ARE NOT Christians. MLK is a great man because he didn't succumb to the hatred and nonsense of the Klan.
JasonS @ 12:
But MLK did appeal to people's faith none the less.
As did the Nuns who marches with him as did the four girls who died in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing.
But faith isn't somthing one should have in a government who lies over and over again.
The Populist @ 14:
He'd be in GITMO.
pinkobait @ 16:
See, I am not a believer in the word of Man. I believe in Christ's message. You can't ask people to abandon a faith. Look at what happens when you do. What we need to do is counter these pinheads with facts and win over the good people of this country who are not paying attention to what's going on.
C'mon, I don't presume to tell you how to think, it's wrong to tell me to abandon my beliefs, as long as they don't hurt you, because you see a few jerks pretending to speak for the people who don't buy this nonsense they are preaching.
He is Exactly right.
Hasn't anybody read "The Prince"
stewart @ 21:
Are you refering to the part where it says princes should always pretend to be pious regardless of what they really think?
JasonS @ 15:
To me faith = hope. I did say I believe in science. I don't go to a church to hear some pinhead tell me how to believe. Can I not believe in the words of Christ and make that my "faith?" It's similar to adhering to your favorite historical figure's quotes.
Some others I love include Teddy Roosevelt, Tom Jefferson, George Washington, JFK, FDR, etc. I am all over the place. Faith to me is hope. It's not what you think it means when I talk about it.
I am not the brainwashed...
The Populist Says:
The Klan ARE NOT Christians. MLK is a great man because he didn’t succumb to the hatred and nonsense of the Klan.
The Klan call themselves Christians. And there are many who would have claimed that MLK was NOT a real Christian because he associated with communists.
One cannot on the one hand proclaim that "faith" is a good thing and then on the other go about decided arbitrarily who is and who isn't a "real" member of a religion.
What are the standards for genuine faith? Safe to say, no Christian sect today practices all the teachings of the original Christian church and certainly no Christian sect today practices the Jewish traditions on which Christianity is based.
Slavery is specifically sanctioned in the Bible. It is fundamentally supported by religious teaching.
Who is anyone to say that's not "real" Christianity? Three centuries ago it was. What changed?
What changed was our humanist ethics. We could no longer tolerate it. We, ourselves, without benefit of a burning bush or tablets from heaven figured out that civil rights was more important than maintaining tradition.
No doubt when gay marriage is finally legalized and churches begin performing the ceremonies, we'll hear all about how people of FAITH brought about matrimonial gender equality.
Religion tells us we're evil, sinful and bad, hijacks our innate morality and then sells it back to us under the phony baloney rubric of "salvation." Feh.
And I ask you this, good people of faith: what happens to those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior? What is their fate to be?
For even if I believed, I would want to stand with them.
The Populist @ 23:
BTW I don't believe in endtimes or nonsense like that. I am not a brainwashed stooge pretending to wait for an imaginary rapture. I don't buy what these people are selling, so know I am on your side.
All I am saying is faith is different for each person. Your faith could be in your family. Another in their leaders. Another can be in the hope that the earth can renew itself from man's destruction.
That's all I am saying...
stewart @ 21:
Why yes I am.
The Populist @ 25:
I find those who want to bring about the rapture to be creepy.
BTW the Left Behind books are full of shit.
The Populist @ 13:
As long as the bible condemns homosexuality, promotes misogyny, and encourages ignorance then I will have a problem with "faith". I love when Churches become less extreme and more liberal, but this isn't what he is doing. He sees it is popular to hate George Bush so he writes a book how "George Bush isn't a real Christian" and yet he is still pro-life and anti gay marriage.
They sidestep questions on abortion and gay marriage by saying they are for the poor, compassionate conservatisim, but when push further they say things like, "God doesn't hate gays, they hate their sin" and then they show their colors. Give this guy enough time and he will turn on us like he did in 2000 when the anti-bush sentiment dies down.
JasonS @ 24:
Dude, you have me confused with the idiots on the far right. I gave you my answer a post or two up.
You can believe what you want, but it feels like you are quickly lumping me in with something of which I do not belong to or believe in.
They aren't Christians...that's fact. Does this make me wrong? No...because Christ as I've read him would never associate with hate mongers like that. THAT is my faith as I said...it means hope. I can say this...I am very pissed off.
I'm on your side in the end. This endtimes b.s. is a pure prostitution of Jesus' message.
Chris H. @ 28:
Some of my best friends are gay. I don't care if a gay person wants to marry, I think heterosexual assholes who say they can't are hypocrites.
I believe gay people are born the way they are. If so, IF THERE IS A GOD, he made them that way.
Again, please don't treat me like I am some wacky rightie. I am far from that. I am just saying many people have different viewpoints of things. I fear our country has become very quick to judge and I blame the right for it.
"For Christians, the problem is not how to reconcile homosexuality with scriptural passages that condemn it, but how to reconcile the rejection and punishment of homosexuals with the love of Christ." - An Open Letter from Rev. William Sloane Coffin.
I argue with rightie christians all the time. I point out to those that hate science to ask themselves why God endowed us with the minds we have?
I ask them all the time...problem is they are brainwashed sheep. A lot of them are not practicing their religion properly.
Religion has no place in politics. Religion and faith are personal issues.
I am done. Sorry to piss off some of you folks. It feels as if you think I am some wack job.
The Populist @ 30:
Well tell god to rewrite his book or tell the Churches to cross out anything the contridicts science or is considered violent. I know your not crazy, but the crazy people are backed by theology and the only way that can change is if the bible changes.
Faith is NOT what we need.
If you need faith, fine. Do it on your own time in your own way and keep it to yourself.
I see some Christians above trying to deny the Christianity of hate groups like the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood.
Get over it, they ARE Christian and can point to the relevant portions of the Bible to back that up. Just because they are not YOUR kind of Christian does not mean they aren't.
They say they are, they claim to accept Jesus as their saviour, they quote the parts of the Bible that back up their insane beliefs, they are indeed Christian.
Too bad so sad for you.
What we need is everyone to park that faith crap where it belongs, at home.
It's a secular world, time to start living in it.
The Populist @ 20:
You are obviously a thoughtful individual,and have every right to believe what you want.However you haven't addressed my question concerning your assertion that "extremism" would be the result of a "Faithless" society.
Sam, the self righteous prig right to the end?
You see Sam, your God Filled Republic Party would rather have a thrice divorced cheatin fallen away Catholic from NY, whose
children hate him, and is both Pro Gay and Pro Choice, then you?
Because, unlike you, they think HE has the best chance of beating
Hillary.
While you claim they are all about Faith, what they
are all about is anger, bigotry, misogyny, racism.
They hate Hillary more then they love Jesus, as a matter of fact.
Deal with it, Sam.
They would vote for Pilate, right after he nailed Jesus to the cross, if he was polling ten points ahead of Hillary.
pinkobait @ 35:
My point was denying faith and telling others that it is wrong will result in extremists. These people need to be more tolerant, I agree 100%. I feel that both worlds can co-exist if the extreme rightie element was put in it's place.
So basically, faith is important since it can mean many things to many people (and I am not talking about FAITH in a religious sense, fyi). I have faith somebody will come along and get this country on the right track. I just hope it's soon.
That is what I meant. I certainly do not believe RELIGIOUS faith should be shoved down anybody's throat. We need to accept that religion as a vehicle for faith is something that will never go away. I know you have issues, as do I but telling others they can't have their rituals and faith is not gonna make things better. What we need is for these people to re-read the teachings of Christ and start FOLLOWING his message of tolerance and peace.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
"It is this fusion of faith and politics that is destroying both faith AND politics"
Exactly why the Founding fathers took steps to ensure that the two woulod remain separate.
I've never fully trusted anyone who seems to proclaim their faith too loudly.
Chris H. @ 33:
Crazy extremists can take the teachings of Christ (which we ALL know is a message of peace) and turn it into one of war. I've heard many in the rightie media preach that. I disagree and I call them on it.
As for the bible? I have no use for it, fyi, outside of Christ's message. I am sure if these idiots had their way, they'd put me in a secular prison or something, LOL.
Again, I am a tolerant person but I have no use for people who can't think, reason or preach tolerance.
Thanks again...
Symes @ 34:
Thanks...too bad you cherry picked most of what I am saying. Too bad you are lumping me in with others I don't share one belief with. The KKK maybe "Christians" but they sure don't like Christ very much. To me that makes them evil. I like Secular America. Please do not attribute words to me that weren't communicated.
Argh...
spit take @ 38:
I don't trust anyone who even mentions their faith.
Those are the people who use faith as a measure of someones worth.
Those are the people who pass judgement over something they can't prove and have never actually seen themselves.
Those are the ones who kill in the name of some ill defined ideology.
The Populist @ 40:
BTW - Why do I feel like some are thinking I support the KKK or something. I think they are depraved assholes.
Faith for me = hope. Christ to me = a great man for whom I take a lot of what he said to heart. Does this make me evil or something?
I hate the KKK, I hate racists, I hate revisionists, I hate people who start wars based on slim evidence, I hate the death penalty.
The Populist @ 17:
People in the KKK believe in an invisible man in the sky, just like MLK did.
This is why religion is divisive. David Kuo says his invisible friend jesus wants him to do things. George Bush says his invisible friend---also named jesus---wants him to do different things.
Obviously, the invisible friend is the problem.
The Populist @ 40:
Too bad you lumped yourself in with them.
They like Christ just fine, they just don't seem to think of Christ the sway you do.
As for naming you, I didn't. You did.
Symes @ 41:
And that is why we have unnecessary wars. Osama kills because he hates Christians and distorts his holy bible and the right wing Christians are hypocrites for wanting to torture the innocent because they believe that Islam is evil.
It's just madness.
John Kiel @ 43:
Agreed....just because they say they are doesn't make their message right. I agree 100%.
The Populist @ 40:
<blockquote
Thanks...too bad you cherry picked most of what I am saying. Too bad you are lumping me in with others I don't share one belief with. The KKK maybe "Christians" but they sure don't like Christ very much. To me that makes them evil. I like Secular America. Please do not attribute words to me that weren't communicated.
Argh...
BTW - just to remind you of what you said:
"The Populist Says:
The Klan ARE NOT Christians. MLK is a great man because he didn’t succumb to the hatred and nonsense of the Klan."
I'd rather a faith-based candidate that believed these words than the "Word of God" any day:
The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.
Faith ain't bad, it's organized religion that destroys lives.
Separation of church and state for the preservation of both...
HEY! Will someone please ask the Republics[sic] to take their fingers out of their ears and stop going, "Lalalalalalalala!"? Thank you!
(Hmmm! I wonder what I will find up-thread? Religion themed threads are always good for some fireworks...)
Symes @ 47:
BTW - just to remind you of what you said:
"The Populist Says:
The Klan ARE NOT Christians. MLK is a great man because he didn’t succumb to the hatred and nonsense of the Klan."
So? I stick to that quote. I can have opinions can't I?
My issue with you isn't that post, it's the absolute proclamation that you say I am something I never said I was.
The Klan aren't Christians for wanting to hurt others who are different from them in the name of God. I say this because they take passages out of a book (I never said I believed in or followed) and make it their mission in life to enforce.
Same thing applies to the wackjobs in Islam.
I joke sometimes that the Buddhists have it right. They do...do you ever see a Buddhist attacking a person different than them because they pervert their own beliefs?
Anyway, it's cool dude...I am not what you seem to think I am. I am not saying you are wrong. I just felt like you attacked me without reading my other posts where I clarified some of my posts.
Can I not believe in the words of Christ and make that my “faith?”
Sure, there are some good words there. Believe in the words all you want.
I especially like:
"he who has no faith in him has been judged even now, because he has no faith in the name of the only Son of God." John 3:18
or
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." Luke 12:51
or
"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth; when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God: and you yourselves thrust out. "
- Luke 13:28
or
"So likewise every one of you that doth not renounce all that he possesseth cannot be my disciple. " Luke 14:33
or
"Every one that putteth away his wife and marrieth another committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. " Luke 16:18
Very inspiring stuff indeed.
What I suggest is not that we draw inspiration from Jesus' words, but rather we selectively read them projecting OUR OWN INNATE GOODNESS upon him.
When he talks about bringing a sword and putting unbelievers to death and requiring everyone to give up their love of family and friends to follow him, we just breeze past that.
We react more positively to "be kind to one another" and "treat each other fairly" because we are perfectly capable of understanding right and wrong for ourselves.
HOLY CRAP !!!
Stupid Git @ 48:
Thank you. Religion takes faith (the religious, God fearing type) and distorts it into something that is wrong.
Christ never wanted people to proclaim their beliefs arrogantly. He believed people should lead by example. The people of "faith" in this country have made a mockery of not only their beliefs but of Christ's teachings.
Again, I am not a bible thumper (I have no use for the fiction and hatred in that book). I only admired a man who truly led by example and was tolerant of those who disagreed with him.
the republican party (aka "grand old party") is already dead.
the john birch society took over their trademark and has been running things for about the last twenty years.
Look Populist, you aren't the only one who claimed the KKK/AYM/Brotherhood/Nazi's weren't Christian.
My point was that I see that all the time and it is wrong.
They were very much Christian, and the refusal to admit that is what keeps the attrocities coming from the Christian camp.
It's that old "We are Christian soldiers so we are rightious and pure and on the side of good" crap. It has been used countless times to commit absolutely viscious and barbarous crimes against humanity.
And I'm not singling out you guys for this, there's enough of it for ALL the worlds faith based thinkers. Budhists included (I know, they LOVE to deny EVER having fought wars).
Nothing personal, just reminding everyone what faith usually translates into in the real world.
JasonS @ 51:
I agree. Sure he said those things, but sometimes I wonder if, like anything that old and written by men, his words were distorted by different interpretations.
Just a thought...I agree with you. I have faith in the words of JFK, for example. I also have faith in the words of MLK, FDR, etc.
Your a good guy, thanks for that post.
On faith=hope.
Hope is another bad habit. Hope is investing emotion in a particular unknown future outcome.
I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. I hope the Giants win. I hope someone will fix our broken government.
Hope is pointless. You can hope all you want for something, it won't divert a single raindrop.
Instead, strive for resolve and satisfaction. As in:
I am satisfied that I am adequately prepared for both rain and sun tomorrow.
I am satisfied that there is nothing I can do to affect the Giants' prospects and will make do with the simple joy of watching the game.
I am dissatisfied with the state of our broken government and resolve to do what I can to help fix it.
Faith is a con and hope is it's hook.
Symes @ 55:
It's cool dude. I bet we have more in common than it seems. I am willing to change my post since you so eloquently pointed out my flawed reason. They are Christians, yes....but they aren't following the overall MESSAGE of the religion. Until most Christians re-embrace the message of love, tolerance and understanding the religion is a mess and will cause many to turn away.
Look at what's happening now. Droughts, war, teetering economic collapse. This is real and all the prayer in the world won't fix it. People need to put the prayer back in church and in their homes and be ready to find solutions to these MANMADE problems. God can't fix it, Jesus can't fix it and (forget the argument whether they exist...I am just trying to make a point) this means people may be forced to question their approach to religion.
Religion in government won't fix any of this mess. Those who believe that are lost in my book.
JasonS @ 57:
One can still have hope and fight to fix the problems caused by this crap administration. I have hope that we can fix it. Without hope I feel it's hopeless...you see my dilemma?
I get what you are saying, and I respect that.
JasonS @ 57:
BTW - try being a Mariners fan. One has to LIVE by hope to be a fan of that team!
Adios guys...it was fun.
I like this place. You guys are fun to have discussions with.
As the GOP knows too well, when there is a problem to be solved . . .
prayer is inexpensive.
The Populist Said:
Sure he said those things, but sometimes I wonder if, like anything that old and written by men, his words were distorted by different interpretations.
That's what I mean. We take it upon ourselves and our own innate sense of right and wrong to decide what the correct interpretations are.
How do we know we haven't misinterpreted all the GOOD things Christ said? For all we know he had the ethics of Charles Manson and we've just cherry picked a few positive messages he gave on good days.
One can still have hope and fight to fix the problems caused by this crap administration.
One can run a marathon with 40 lb weight around one's neck. I wouldn't recommend it.
I get what you are saying, and I respect that.
And you as well. Discussions of faith bring out the Hitchens in me, I must admit :)
"The Populist",
I agree with what you are trying to explain and even though I am a very vocal and proud atheist am aware that I was raised by a father who is a devout Christian and has a heart of gold that he attributes to his "God." I would never take that from him but know from years of attending church that the people of his church are often mean-spirited, racist, homophobic and judgmental and that my father's charitable, open-minded and heartfelt caring stems from his own sense of right and wrong and not the words of some prophet. Just as your sense of decency, right and wrong stems from your views of what you believe to be Jesus' message instead of what a Pat Robertson or Fred Phelps view of Jesus' message.
As "JasonS" illustrated above, Jesus has been attributed some pretty bad sayings as well as good ones just as some folks believe Islam is a peaceful religion and Hinduism is enlightening. I don't blame any of these religions for the crimes against humanity just as I'd never blame atheism for some atheist's crimes against humanity. I blame humanity's "inhumanity" for the shit we do to each other and believe only through our own dismissal of dogma - whether it be religious or political - and acceptance of our common humanity will we learn to get along.
The Populist @ 61:
Au revior Populist, Any time!
The Populist@60-
BTW - try being a Mariners fan. One has to LIVE by hope to be a fan of that team!
Livin' in the Upper Midwest, I'm surrounded by Cubs fans (Tigers fan myself). Follow their example. Go to the park. Enjoy a little bit of greenspace in the midst of concrete and steel. Win or lose, there's always Old Style.
Symes @ 67:
Sorry, that should have au revoir.
I will go flog myself mercilessly now... :grin:
This is just a little temper tantrum that Brownback's having since it's becoming more and more obvious that he isn't going to be the nominee. Also, he's an idiot. No one on the planet ever thought that all that "family values" tripe was worth anything. It's never been about "family values." For some people, it's been about bigotry, and "those damn gays" and for some people it's been about sexism and "those damn uppity women..." and for some people, it's been about racism and "those damn brown people!..." For lots of people, it's about pure, unadulterated greed. Large religious leaders are nothing but politicians, just like Brownback - using their so-called "faith" to garner votes which translates to dollars. It's about $$ - always and forever, it's about $$. Now Brownback is trying to regain relevance for the theocrats. Silly Rabbit. The money follows Guiliani now, and he could care less about faith.
Brownback loves using religion to mask his racism
Stupid Git Says:
I don’t blame any of these religions for the crimes against humanity just as I’d never blame atheism for some atheist’s crimes against humanity.
The problem is that is an unbalanced comparison. Atheism is not a philosophy of life, per se. It's a renunciation of religion.
It all depends on what you replace that religion with.
The fascists in Europe, though they had a great deal of secular ideology, were largely extensions of the right wing of the Catholic church. And the fascists never quite repudiated religion, rather they attacked reformed churches.
Stalin, who did proclaim atheism, replaced religion with an earth-based framework of superstition. Their magical science would provide bumper crops without water of fertilizer, the head of the state is a transcendent individual above common people, etc.
What I'd like to see is anyone who has committed atrocities in the name of humanism (Spinoza, Einstein, Russell.) That would be a fair comparison.
Religion does not bring evil to humanity. It's in there already, along with our innate goodness. What religion does (and is not unique in doing) is connects with receptors in our brains that encourage inhumane behavior.
It also connects with receptors that encourage humane behavior, but in my experience so does reason.
When faced with a conflict is when the utility of reason becomes paramount. Look at global warming. We may argue the evidence. We may debate the likely impact. We may kibitz over the best intervention policy.
What we may not do is proclaim that God will take care of everything if we just have faith.
What we further must not do is proclaim that any investigation of global warming is impinging on God's domain and will bring about his wrath, therefore it must be abandoned that we may prove that faith.
And that's how faith is used today in the public arena (though, thankfully, not on that particular topic.)
Put God to the same test Reagan put to the Soviets: trust if you must, but verify.
If one of the puppets from the GPO (excluding Ron Paul) :-) Gets the nomination and that republican wins looks for the NEOFASCIST CULT of antichrist christianZIONISTs to start world war 3.
Its a little off topic but please watch the 1 minute youtube video from pastor Hagee.
Supposed * Christian * preacher John Hagee clearly states that he believes Jesus didn't come to Earth to be the messiah, that Jesus never claimed to be the messiah in word or in deed and that it isn't Jewish people's fault that they missed the messiah, because it's Jesus' fault for never offering.
Basically there is a strong risk of people to begin to be led by fake preachers who say that Jesus is not the messiah and that we are in a holy war with islam. This is crazy.
Brownback is one of the biggest assholes in the republican party. He is out there with Bush and Cheney. They all should go Cheney themselves. And, if the traitors at the NSA are reading this - go Cheney yourself also.
Jesus told me the GOP will go underground for eight years and finally morph itself its inevitable form, a full-blown white supremist/christofacist organization. You think they're bad now , just wait until they incubate under Democratic control for years. Santorum and Brownback will break out their white sheets, and Rush will finally use the n-word on the air. This the werd of the lord.
StirFry Says:
Jesus told me the GOP will go underground for eight years and finally morph itself its inevitable form, a full-blown white supremist/christofacist organization.
Yeah, but Jesus also said the apocalypse would come within one generation of his passing, so I'd be skeptical of his, uh, "artificial timelines."
;)
JasonS @ 72:
Just as you chastised Populist for saying the KKK aren't real Christians you can't now proclaim that bad atheists aren't real atheists. And the rest of your post was just highlighting what I already said - Humanity is often inhumane.
I am a proud atheist but I don't pretend it makes me better than those who aren't.
This is like Nixon's code words about 'states rights'. He wants even more hypocrites than the Bush days.
Religion isn't just about 'god' and 'the bible' you know... The GOP has founded a new religion based on profit, lies, money and pure balls...
One man's religion is another man's tool...
Stupid Git Says:
Just as you chastised Populist for saying the KKK aren’t real Christians you can’t now proclaim that bad atheists aren’t real atheists.
I claim to do no such thing.
The fascists were not precisely atheists by their own claim. The followed a mixture of Catholicism and Nordic hero worship and they proclaimed mystical truths. But they did reject mainstream religion and therefore would be in an "atheist" camp from that point of view.
The communists were, in fact, fully atheists. But they also denied essential materialism and equated belief to reality, which is a faith-based approach.
But yes, they were atheists in that they did not believe in God.
My point is that I'm not defending atheism as a positive philosophy. I'm attacking religion as one.
Once we're talking about replacing religion, it takes a lot more than simple atheism to get to anything good. Humanism works for me.
I am a proud atheist but I don’t pretend it makes me better than those who aren’t.
I am no better a person than the typical person of faith. But my ideas are better.
"The GOP has founded a new religion based on profit, lies, money and pure balls…"
Colbert 21:12 ;)
What America "NEEDS" is the guts to throw the fairytale rip-off of religion OUT of our political system.
While I respect Mr. Kuo and what he's trying to do, one thing I can't respect is the thought process in Religion that everyone can absolve themselves of blame for there wrongs or attribute there good fortune to Satan or God. All that shows is the inability to take responsibility for ones self. If I can blame sin for my mistakes then I can continue to be a screw-up, because it wasn't my fault. If I become very rich or successful then it wasn't any of my doing but the result of the Almighty. If human beings need someone to take the heat we are to quick to pick "not me".
How many times have you heard an athlete say "I want to thank God for giving me the strength to make that play"? As if he couldn't have gotten off the bench without Gods help. Much like Pat Robertson blameing sin in New Orleans for Katrina(a natural disaster). How pathetic it is to have to do that. Without any personal human responsibility life must be grand for these people. Too bad it is only an illusion.
A Richard Head Says:
If human beings need someone to take the heat we are to quick to pick “not me”.
Good point, Dick. The Christian myth is a wicked one, at it's core.
It tells us that we are guilty of crime from the moment we are born.
It tells us that we cannot, by our own actions, hope to do adequate penance.
It tell us that to be cleansed of this and other sins, we must endorse the most violent murder in the history of mankind (their assessment, in reality it was likely a fairly typical crucifixion.)
It tells us that if we accept not only the fact of God's existence, the fact of his son's existence but also the holy righteousness of tearing another human apart, that we may be vicariously cleansed.
It tells us that if we are cleansed, we are cleansed clean. Not that we have made recompense for our crimes but that the crimes themselves have been literally washed away by virtue of this belief. The suffering of our victims is not at issue. They have no say in the matter.
It tells us that if we do not accept this cleansing, we will not simply die but be tortured for all eternity.
And, if we do, our reward will be that we will be ALLOWED to praise God.
Constantly.
Forever.
Luckily, not a word of it is true.
I can't keep track of Bronwback, Huckabee and Tancredo (and a few others-- but Kucinich ROCKS!). They all sound the same to me, and they are way way behind. Now, I come here every day (an dshould know), so I imagine the US public, at large, hasn't a clue who any of the are. If 1/5 can't even find the USA on a map...
And these people are worried about "Islamofascism"? They need to take a long hard look in the mirror.
Far be it from me to take up for Brownback, but what the man was actually talking about was the "conservative movement" and not the GOP. He even mentions that he isn't talking about "political power." This delineation actually makes his actual position far more disingenuous.
See, if that distinction is important for Brownback, he is dancing on the head of a pin. The GOP is willing to pimp social conservatives for votes and the social conservatives didn't seem to have one problem with that so long as the guy who they thought was theirs (e.g. Shrub) - was winning. Now the minute the GOP drops them because they are no longer helping, the religious wingnuts are crying foul!
Well, I hate to tell them "we told you so..." but...if the shoe fits....
And these people are worried about “Islamofascism”? They need to take a long hard look in the mirror.
And when he felt his father's hand grip his throat, he struggled to speak, but the air would not come.
And when he saw the knife in his father's hand, he saw the hand of God.
And when Isaac gazed upon his fathers face, he saw there no recognition.
And when his father released him, Isaac was enlightened.
Never again would he underestimate the power of religion.
"It is this fusion of faith and politics that is destroying both faith AND politics."
What more is there to say? Honestly what else do people need to understand?
Faith, belief, and hope are redundant and useless terms. They inslave the mind because of the mystical qualities they are attributed with throughout life. These terms are for the lazy thinkers around us. Oops, I think I just called them thinkers....
Proud sheep are the downfall of our democracy. Our country demands active citizenry and Christians love nothing more than sitting in sanctuary every Sunday, safe in their shared delusion, and scared of the world without. It eventually turns into one big YES MAN session after another and pretty soon, you have extremism solely for the fact that they've told themselves how right they are, without contest, for too damn long!
Matt @ 89:
Faith, belief, and hope are redundant and useless terms?
Why don't you kill yourself then?
Since they are redundant and useless, I don't need them to live. What good would killing myself do? Do you have a point?
Does CD stand for Christian Determinist? LOL
Matt @ 91:
I am assuming you don't like life under Bush.
If there is no hope for change then why go on living?
CD @ 90:
I get what yer sayin' Matt.
I wonder if Brownback will be the next GOP legislator to be outed. Whenever one of these clowns starts spouting about faith we found out pretty soon he's taking it in brown back.
Republicans like "faith" - because it's free! Something for nothing they can give their brain-dead base.
It's also about the only thing left of government once they leave office. After they have stolen everything they can get their grubby little hands on - of course.
"Lost your job, house, health insurance and pension?" "Have a little faith, and everything will be just fine."
"Well, gotta go. I'm off to Dubai to spend my latest tax-cut."
Sam Brownback kind of looks like David's much older identical twin brother in that picture.
I haven't read the article that faith and politics is killing both, but I agree. All my life I have bounced back and forth between a believer and an agnostic. But because of religion and politics in the years of the GWBush administration I have become a full-fledged atheist. The fundamentalist christians, charletans, and TV evangelist have brought all of Chrisianity in the U.S. down. They have degraded politics and the American education system as well. Not only are these people idiots but they have brought religion and politics down to the lowest common demnominator. The religious leaders in this country are no more than businessmen using religion to gain power and wealth. It is more than discusting.
Don't give up on faith just because of the charletans and idiots.
You don't hear about the good leaders on tv because their philosophy doesn't fit into a sound bite.
Edwin @ 94:
Sure you do.
How dumb would you have to be, to vote for this guy?
What's the matter with Kansas?
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