Gonzales establishes legal defense fund
Most Attorneys General, upon stepping down, move to private-sector legal work. Some take on faculty positions at respected law schools. And then there’s Alberto Gonzales, arguably the worst Attorney General in U.S. history.
Since resigning in disgrace, Gonzales has retained a high-powered DC criminal-defense lawyer to represent him. Given that the U.S. Inspector General may recommend criminal charges against Gonzales, it was probably a good move.
It’s reached the point at which Gonzales’ friends have had to create a legal defense fund for the embattled former AG.
Supporters of former attorney general Alberto R. Gonzales have created a trust fund to help pay for his legal expenses, which are mounting in the face of an ongoing Justice Department investigation into whether Gonzales committed perjury or improperly tampered with a congressional witness.
The establishment of a legal defense fund for the nation’s former chief law enforcement officer underscores the potential peril confronting Gonzales, who is one of a handful of attorneys general to face potential criminal charges for actions taken in office.
If criminal charges against Fredo come quickly enough, maybe he can get the special Scooter Libby get-out-of-jail-free card?
Why bother? He'll get pardoned.
I suspect that criminal defense funds for disgraced repugs will become the hot new cottage industry in D.C. over the coming months.
Why bother? He’ll get pardoned.
Dunno. If he's pardoned, he can't plead the fifth. I think Fredo is going fishing...
...well, the [expletive deleted] are above the laws they make to begin with, so what's the point?
Why would anybody contribute to this fund?
Barry Bonds and fredo both have pre-emptive pardons coming.
Does anybody really believe that Gonzo will be charged? Perhaps if we lived in a reality-based country he would be. But not here, not now.
maybe if we waterboard him for a while we'll get all the facts
I love the smell of pardons in the morning.
not really.
After you get settled down in your jail cell, we can talk cigarette money. Until then FU.
Query:
What happens to the monies collected for LDF's that doesn't go toward actual legal fees?
Are LDF's a new way to hide money from the IRS and public scrutiny?
CORPORATE CRONIE WELFARE QUEENS!
GET THEM OFF IT!
Rusty Shackleford @ 5:
Because high crimes and treason are a worthy cause for republicans doncha know.
Healthcare for children, medical for veterans, cancer research etc etc...not so worthy.
I find his lawyering-up so fast to be veddy eeeeenterrrrresting!
Let's just drag this out a bit to the time where The Stupidest Person in the World can't possibly pardon him for the crimes he's committed.
He remembered to do that?
Pardon me.
as long as boosh is prez and nancy is speaker and reid is ml, this is moot.
Everyone should mail them one penny. Since it takes about a buck to process a mail in contribution, they'll go broke.
I am standing tall to donate. Here's a bucket of warm spit gonzo. It's more than you deserve but I am feeling generous.
Dr. Acula @ 14:
I agree. Nobody moves that fast to get legal representation unless they have done something that know no one will cover.
And when Bush issues a blanket pardon for his entire administration, where does all the money go?
Who cares. It does not matter anymore. Bush\Chaney have corrupted the U.S government beyond repair. It is too late to save what America used to be. Get ready for the world war the necons want so badly and to send your sons and daughters to die so corporations can turn a profit and destroy our standard of living down to wore than a 3rd work country.
Boycott Ford Motor Company for letting their General Counsel establish the fund.
Not quite rich enough to escape the consequences of his actions I take it.
Rusty Shackleford @ 5:
Because some people (neocons) genuinely believe what this shithead did was right.
Doesn't matter if something is illegal, immoral, unethical or has disastrous results. What matters is he's one of theirs. If he was a Democrat he'd already be swinging from a lamp post down in DC.
Rather than not donate, why not make a pittance donation to get on the email list to help organize protests at any and every event the fund has!
Save your big donations to the prosecution
I look forward to his book, "A Life looking back: How I sucked". I'll look at it in the bargain bin in a few years, right next to "Culture Warrior".
That should read "Illegal Defense Fund" Does that mean I can send him fake money?
Bring him back and IMPEACH him!
John Dean, on Findlaw, outlined a legal process where by he can be brought back and impeached in a streamlined process in the House Judiciary committee, where they act as a grand jury and if cause to impeach is found it is sent back to the House floor for and up or down vote.
It is not the long drawn out process that is involved in the impeachment of a President, it happens very fast. There is legal precedent for this, it was done during the civil war to a cabinet member who was taking bribes from war profiteers. He resigned to try to avoid the scandal and they actually subpoenaed him to return to face impeachment charges.
Why do it?
1. It would be a CRIMINAL investigation. He can not refuse to be there or testify and he would be under oath. Any thing that emerges can be used in other trials.
2. If he is impeached, a simple up or down vote in the House can strip him of his pension and prevent him from ever holding another job in any future administrations.
3. It would send a very powerful message to all of the Neocon bureaucrats that Bush has stuffed into every office of the administration... "Your frickin career is over." In short it hits the Bush/Cheney enablers who think that they can get off of the hook by simply resigning.
From John Dean:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20061215.html
Ya gotta love that last line! I say put him down for good!
I contributed a bag shit.
I contributed a bag 'o shit.
Thoma @ 23:
There's always the military-law enforcement-security contractors for the bottom 50% of the population. That or starvation and destitution.
We'll probably need a 70 Million strong army after Bush gets finished.
I hope Bush and Cheney's names are at the top of the list of donors to Gonzo's cause.
I really do hope that Gonzales rots in jail for his arch-criminal activity. But like Bush and Cheney, nothing will happen to him. There is no law for the rich.
Is there a link to where we can donate? ;)
"If criminal charges against Fredo come quickly enough, maybe he can get the special Scooter Libby get-out-of-jail-free card?"
what happens to the millions of dollars these legal defense funds generate when the perp is given the presidential free pass. is it possible that someone like skooter liebby made a pretty penny after all?
"Supporters of former attorney general Alberto R. Gonzales have created a trust fund " i guess gonzo was not leaglly smart enough to think of that himself. look for someone like mary matlain? 9a.k.a the cheyney witch) to get on tv and radio and repeat the web address for contributers as many times as she can in the time allowed. just as in the liebby deal.
Why should he need to hire outside counsel? Wasn't he the premiere lawyer in the country--picked for his outstanding ability navigate the legal highways and byways of our judicial system? To not only interpret, but act on those interpretations? Who be be more qualified to represent
BozoGonzoGonzales, but himself?just like Libby, if he's convicted of anything, Bush will have his back... I say delay any legal action until Bush can no longer help him...
Is there a prosecution fund? Can I contribute to those attorneys who will pursue justice. Usually attorneys pursue causes that are incentive based, meaning money as well as recognition. .
It is part of that theory / policy - equal justice under the law, for all, who can afford to pay.
Still, I would donate to the prosecution, which would be the state, the citizen.
It is too late to save what America used to be.
And what did America used to be? We had segregated schools, "Taxi Driver"-esque failing cities, law-based gender discrimination, legal persecution of homosexuals, legal persecution of communists, suspected communists, communist sympathizers, suspected communist sympathizers and those suspected of sympathizing with suspected communist sympathizers.
And how did we get away from all that? By fighting motherfuckers like this man, right here. And we didn't do it all at once. And we didn't always know if we'd win. And we didn't always trust history.
How many soldiers died in Vietnam (another war based on lies that profited friends of a Texan president?)
How many lives did Joe McCarthy ruin?
How many Japanese families were torn apart during WWII?
How close did we come to nuclear war?
We've seen worse than this obvious, pathetic, sniveling lot. We may not get the satisfaction we want, but history will kick the Bushies to the same curb that McCarthy occupies.
Only, however, if we fight.
Letter sent yesterday to the Ford Motor Corporation:
Dear Board of Directors of Ford Motor Corporation,
I have just read news reports that your General Counsel David G. Leitch is spearheading the drive to assist former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in raising money to fund his defense against pending criminal charges. If your General Counsel David G. Leitch continues in this capacity with regards to former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and remains in the employ of the Ford Motor Corporation, I will NEVER purchase another Ford product as long as I live.
I am of the opinion that this man, Alberto Gonzales should be left to deal with the mess he has created on his own.
I am terribly disappointed and surprised that you might allow your General Counsel David G. Leitch to use his position within your company to potentially imply the support of the Ford Motor Corporation in assisting this man who may very well be guilty of crimes against the U. S. Constitution as well as the American people.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXX X. XXXXXXXX
gioi @ 40:
You already have 'donated,' if you are a taxpayer.
Why would anybody contribute to this fund?
Perhaps, it will become tax deductible?
One thing's for sure, it's great to see him out of the AG position and stuck on the defensive. There may be no real justice for what he has done, but at least he has to go through this and make more of a spectacle of the GOP, Neocons and Bushlickers everywhere.
Who knows, it could be quite revealing - Gonzo was at the center of many things, with one of the most important being: election rigging, which would also ensnare Rove.
The problem with that is that the american nitwit has a very fickle memory and will most likely forget about Alberto Gonzo and move on to something else that pisses them off.
This guy has friends?? Do they ambulate on their bellies like the snakes they are? I guess he's gonna need all the friends he's got. What a pathetic lo$er!!
And just who are these people that are giving him money? You probably won't see them on TV or in the news, no sir!
You want to know who is REALLY giving him this money? It isn't his "crony" friends. No way, it is obvious to me that his friends are the actual elite of this world, the puppetmasters, the ringleaders.
[Deleted. You veered off topic with this one-Sitemonitor]
Here's but one of the reasons he needs a legal defense fund. He clearly was complicit in permitting torture of "illegal enemy combatants." Waterboarding (according to the law) is illegal as explicitly defined in the 1984 Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment of which the US is a signator and the treaty was ratified thus making it US law. There are no exceptions made for dire and exigent circumstances and its violation is a capital crime meaning punishment is life imprisonment or death. Gonzo isn't facing piddly perjury or obstruction charges, he's facing the death penalty. Here's an excellent link to a brief article (just a few paragraphs) explaining the blatantly clear language contained in the Convention Against Torture: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/111507A.shtml
Wag @ 48:
I humbly disagree.
I'm sure the Republican party and the Christian Churches will makes sure Gonzo has lots of money to fight the crimes he committed. Some Military Families love the Bush Administration and would make a donation. Yes we know Gonzo committed many crimes but he's a friend of the Bush Family and that means the Law doesn't count. Americans have to get use to the new Justice System in America. If your a friend of Bush/Cheney, an appointee, GOP criminal or married to a GOP you are free from being charged with the crimes you committed. Look Mikie will make sure Gonzo's case is dismissed and Barry Bonds too. With the new corrupt Deputy AG Mark Filip who knows how to cover up as he's done it for the GOP for years there should be no problem. Mark will make sure the crimes done by the GOP are dismissed. Loyalty is the most important thing to the Corrupt Republican Party as for the Church their only in this crime family for the money. If Mikie and Mark are told let Gonzo hang for his crimes well there's always Mexico. Gonzo can move to Mexico and teach them how the US States Justice System now works and maybe get those laws added in Mexico laws.
Gonzo might even remember his family history now. His sister Teresa Gonzales a life long Drug Dealer might be able to help with some of that Drug Money she makes. He protected her from being arrested for selling drugs for 7 years that sould be worth something now.
I've been saying for years that gonzo would look good in 'gitmo orange' and I might just get my wish...
I'll contribute as much to this as to the "Defend Tom Delay" site - Absolutely nothing but contempt.
is there any connie not under investigation? Kerik, Libby and Gonzo are draining the rapture fund
Based on his history, any 'Defense Fund' Gonzales establishes will not be 'legal', he'll f**k it up some way. But, he'll be the first ex-attorney-general to establish an Illegal Defense Fund. Another screw-up for The Dummy's dummy.
I am confused. Why would he have any use for a legal defense fund if he has done nothing wrong?
I gave! Sent him $1,000.00 in Monopoly Money.
Even he doesn't trust his own legal abilities to defend himself?
I'm sure he will get a "get out of jail card free" once he is held accountable for his lying, stonewalling and "act of playing stupid" for this criminal administration. Just like libby before him, they are nothing more than stooges that hold off the country from holding these scumbags accountable for their crimes.
"Obstruction of justice" seems a very ironic crime for the supposedly "head of the justice dept". What a crying shame...he and this whole gang of crooks are to this country.
I know a number of talented, bright kids in their early to mid twenties who are seriously planning on moving to another country. Their conclusion is that this is not the best place to be, and that the corruption is too deep to be cured - a fatal disease. This is the age at which people should still think that pretty much anything is possible - when they step off the cliff with the complete certainty that the parachute will open. Instead, they are so discouraged and disgusted that leaving seems like the most rational response. And I can't really tell them they are wrong.
And that, my dears, is why I detest George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and all the evil they have wrought.
alberto, all along your ordeal you maintained total innocence and a want to only make your family and in particular your mother proud. in light of this, "arguably the worst Attorney General in U.S. history," i would ask, how does your mom feel now, and for you was it worth it?
I'd like to think that all the money in the world couldn't keep his and his crooked accomplices asses out of jail!
Man deserves a noose* - not a defense fund!
* After a legal trial for treason, and for war crimes - of course :)
A Gonzo who has himself for a lawyer has a fool for a client.
The democrat should make sure this asshole is not pardon by Bush on his way out of office in 2009. Just watch the string of pardons coming from the White House on the last days of this administration. I wonder if the right wingnuts on radio will go nuts as they did with Clinton's pardons. JUST WATCH!
The democrat should make sure this asshole is not pardon by Bush on his way out of office in 2009.
What makes you think the Democratic president won't pardon the whole Bush administration? "This nation needs to heal..."
Maybe not a pardon, okay, but hand-off on any prosecutions, definitely.
Why?
A) The Rethugs will characterize any post-Bush investigations of this criminal administration as politically motivated, gratuitous piling on. I know, so what? The Rethugs pile on all the time and, no matter WHAT you do, they'll accuse you of playing politics. It's like debating a parrot. But the Dems are chronically afraid of being called unfair and so they'll back down and the Rethugs will call them unfair anyway.
B) Hillary is almost literally salivating over the expanded executive authority Cheney et al are about to hand her. Any such investigations might lead to *gasp* REFORM!
C) By backing off on Bush, the Dems gain the moral authority to resist the (inevitable) piling on of Hillary that is to come when the Rethugs gain ground in the midterm...which they will. I know, so what? The Rethugs will pile on Hillary anyway, hypocrisy or no. But the Dems still operate under the idea that you can compare apples to apples in politics.
The two parties do not need to be in explicit collusion to be in a conspiracy. There's no star chamber sitting in a room anywhere deciding these things. This is simply the result of two adversaries doing what is rational to win a game that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with serving the needs of the people and EVERYTHING to do with acquiring power for power's sake.
The Clinton/Rove philosophy of life has told us that you can't govern unless you win, so therefore winning should be paramount. There's wisdom in that, okay. But once the power game becomes all consuming that you can't govern once you win (because good governance would undermine your next win) then the game itself must come to an end.
And all logic based on that game must be rejected, regardless of who might win.
Ohh ... those poor criminals with all those legal bills... it just breaks my heart...
Watch him get sued by his legal defense for embezzling the funds.
Lets start a prosecution fund!
They can save their money. Bush will pardon him. Then expunge his record before leaving office. I think his fellow lawyers could hurt him by having him disbarred.
JasonS @ 66:
That's probably all true, but what are you saying? GIVE UP? Stop caring? Don't try? Just let them have their way; let them hijack the country and the constitution?
(Since impeachement is "off the table", lately, I've been in favour of putting revolution "on the table". But that's just me.)
Gee, don't you wish that one could contribute to the Prosecution in cases like this? What the hey, call it Capitalistic Judicial Democracy. Maybe we could just show up at the proceedings and chant the Prosecutors name. Kinda like a pep rally. Make him/her the star. Turn it into a reality show. "America's Prosecutor".
Peace.
That’s probably all true, but what are you saying? GIVE UP? Stop caring? Don’t try? Just let them have their way; let them hijack the country and the constitution?
All I'm saying is, don't expect the Democrats to come riding in on a white horse and bring everyone to justice. They have no interest in any such thing.
Don't put your hope in people who sell you down the river at the first sign that it's worth it to them to do so.
Support candidates who play the game as little as is possible and who are willing to take a hit to do what's right.
Require your representatives to stand by their "strategic" maneuvers and not abandon them as soon as they score their rhetorical points.
Demand government reforms that will put some of these decisions into dedicated career professionals and not 24-year-old Jesus University graduates.
Stop supporting one side over the other. Instead, identify which rhetorical points (on either side) would actually lead to reform if they were actually implemented, and then lend support (yes, even to Rethugs) who back those policies. Even if they're just using them to hurt the other side, they'll have to dance with who brings 'em.
Stop expecting powerful people to go to prison. It happens sometimes, but never often enough to justify any expectation.
Envision the world the way you'd like it to be and then support leaders who are most in line with that vision. Make it a positive vision, not just "no Republican in power."
Oh, and don't accept any "but we'll lose the next election!" reasons for why people don't do their duty.
The oath of office says "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution." Nothing in there about "unless it's politically inconvenient."
Powkat @ 60:
I'm not far out of my twenties and I have heard a great deal of this, too, from people of all ages. I was, for awhile there, considering taking my talents elsewhere as soon as I finished my degree. This can be fixed, though. We can fix it. We have the laws and the legal precedents to clean up this mess, we just have to make it expensive to them to fix it the way they want it. These people love their money, and if it's too expensive to fark it up, they'll subside. However, before we get to the legal option, we need to make it clear that the more direct route is 'on the table.' There are a lot of people getting really goddamn comfy in situations that shouldn't be comfy. Let's make them uncomfortable. It can definitely be fixed.
Just not without it getting a leetle ugly in the process.
This can be fixed, though. We can fix it.
Hear hear. If you want to live somewhere else for your own reasons, that's great, but don't let a bunch of dime store thugs and petty commisars run you out of your home if you'd rather stay.
This is great place, and worth fighting for. There's pretty much no other nation on the planet as diverse. That diversity creates a challenge. We form large cliques and we tend to value "our" leaders over "theirs" no matter what happens.
From Inherit the Wind:
"Progress is never a bargain; you have to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man who sits behind a counter and says, 'you may have the telephone, but you lose solitude and the charm of distance...madame, you may vote, but you lose the right to retreat behind your petticoat and powder puff...mister, you may conquer the skies, but the birds will lose their wonder and the clouds will smell of gasoline."
America is worth fighting for. It's certainly worth fighting THESE yahoos for.
The real underlying story is that Terwilliger was pulled out of AG replacement to be Fredo's lawyer. Mukasey is second string. That the Senate got so little for lying down for him is a real shame, but we'll survive.
In Foot-Shoot 2007, the leftist comment of choice, at #1, "Why bother? He’ll get pardoned," completely misses the value of pressing the investigation to reveal the facts. Fredo is going to be disbarred, with or without a 'pardon,' and his crimes are going to be held up to the light, without or without a pardon. Because, ahem, Bush can't pardon his co-conspirator until later next year for political reasons, and by then his pardons will be worthless.
But then again if cynicism is the only virtuous option for disenfrachized leftists, it's a proud (cough) honor. Do ABSOLUTELY STINKING NOTHING other than whine at every chance about how this once great country ba-blah-blah-blah, FEMA camp, every fear coming true, and blame it all on the Dems, you favorite scapegoats. It's quite a demanding protocol, requiring you to TYPE. And mostly type about how you won't vote any more, and how you have such POOR concept of politics that you won't donate or fight for any race that isn't hopeless.
Meanwhile, it's Friday, and time for another two hours of outdoor protest for justice. My fingers would prefer to stay and type, but I'm just not virtuous enough to sit and do nothing.
JasonS @ 73 "Stop supporting one side over the other. Instead, identify which rhetorical points (on either side) would actually lead to reform if they were actually implemented, and then lend support (yes, even to Rethugs) who back those policies."
Name ONE rhetorical point that a Republican supports you think is worthy.
Oh, wait, RONPAUL, is that it? Go for the rhetoric, not the caucus. Shoot-Foot 2007, well underway. Nevermind that the REPUBLICAN RP wants to disband all international warcrime law. Nevermind he supports torture. Nevermind he wants to deregulate the energy industry and do nothing about global climate change. Vote HIS RHETORIC!
And put some salve on the hole in your foot.
JasonS @ 66:
That logic belonged to Nixon's hand-chosen successor.
Since by next year the wars in the ME will be even worse, the budget crisis even worse, the destruction of American honor even worse, and the report of the criminality even worse, you have to be a real cynic to convince yourself that your cycnicism is valid at any rate of change.
Nothing is the same as it was. No president, no coup, has EVER had this much evidence stacked against it. This is an unprecedented situation in world history.
But please do try to shrink it all down to your political prejudices. It's so cozy.
Name ONE rhetorical point that a Republican supports you think is worthy. Oh, wait, RONPAUL, is that it?
I have no one specific in mind. I'm suggesting that we get away from this idiotic game of "but but but...the other guys are WORSE!!!"
I'm no Ron Paul supporter. The man, excuse me, is an idiot. But he's on the right side of the war and he should be supported ON...THAT...POINT.
I'm not talking about voting or sending money, but voicing the opinion that Ron Paul, Chuck Hagel and even Arlen Specter are SAYING THE RIGHT THINGS and that Joe Lieberman, Diane Feinstein and Harry Reid are DOING THE WRONG THINGS.
Banish all party loyalty, is what I say. It's not serving us any more. Hold people to their words and deeds and nothing more.
I have no interest in caucuses or any other such thing. See, I know this is a hard concept to grasp, but I HAVE NO PARTY LOYALTY WHATSOEVER.
I am not a Democrat. I am not a Republican. I am not a Green. I am a voter. You all get to compete for my votes and "but but but...the OTHER GUYS ARE WORSE" impresses me not one whit. Not one tiny infinitesimal whit.
But I do generally support Democratic candidates when they say and do the right things.
So now YOU loyal Dems with YOUR agenda get to run the political calculus of how you're going to convince us irrational, unreasonable, self-defeating, unreliable, petulant would-be supporters to vote for you.
Time's running out. I have no fear of Republicans. Got anything else?
Scooter Libby was indicted.
Marth Stewart indicted and prosecuted.
Paris Hilton sentence to prison.
Barry Bonds just got indicted.
What makes the bush administration so special that they get treated differently from the justice system?
What is taking so long for contempt charges agaist Harriet Miers? What is taking so long to impeach; indict Alberto Gonzales? Is the justice system waiting for Gonzales to raise millions of dollars for his legal defense; so that there would be tons of money for the lawyers and legal system to bilk Alberto Gonzales's defense fund and enrich themselves?
JasonS @ 66:
Amen brother! This point has already been passed. This message needs to be spread far and wide. To Republicans and Democrats alike. Put Country before Party!
JasonS @ 80 "I'm not talking about voting or sending money, but voicing the opinion that Ron Paul, Chuck Hagel and even Arlen Specter are SAYING THE RIGHT THINGS"
Before he screws you, Arlen Spector ALWAYS puts a little Vaseline on. Because he cares!
Support the RHETORIC! This has got to be the weirdest leftist theory yet. But it is an extension of hunting down the most unlikely-to-succeed candidates to support, by being willing to listen to their claims and the lies they tell to get elected.
I'm a CAUCUS VOTER. You should elect the best Democrat you can run. Only by having enough votes can we change the situation for the better. No amount of rhetoric will do anything unless we have the votes.
How do you find out who is the best Democrat to vote for? Find out who the person IS, not what they say. Taste the food, don't buy the wrapping.
proud American @ 81 "What is taking so long for contempt charges agaist Harriet Miers?"
The DLC asked for it to be delayed until December, because they thought the issue would suck the air out of room. FISA, and, though now Senate-failed, the $50 Billion withdrawal bucks bill, as well as the HHS/VAC bill and a few other bills, they thought took precedence, which is not a particularly loopy idea.
The whole reason for filing that contempt is to promote the 800 pages of factual review of the U.S. Attorney's scandal. There is some point to allowing Mukasey to settle into office before dumping that trashcan into his lap.
And, the Justice System? Still crazy after all these (7) years, crazy from Bush cronies, nonfunctional, hungover, twisted, with puke down the front of their white shirts, and road grease streaking their spines.
Gonzo has more problems and more legal matters to look forward to. Yes the fired attorneys are filing charges against Gonzo. Nice to see lawyers join forces against the former AG. Now let's see if Gonzo can afford or find lawyers as good as the ones he illegally fired. It should be made into a movie when Gonzo is found guilty and no Bush to pardon him. Yes right now the new puppet AG and his criminal Deputy will do what they can to save Gonzo but now that the fired lawyers will file their own charges their smarter then Mikie and Mark.
Waterboard him on Fox TV - if he's telling the truth and survives, I'll contribute to his defense fund.
What was Scooters number?
If we are lucky Gonzo gets a number too and we can start calling them by their new names. :grin:
Amitola @ 86:
That's great!
I'm in as well!
Haha I wonder who can get more legal funds? Alberto or the guy from Oink.cd
A legal defense fund eh... Well... He'll need at least that much...
He'd be better off planning on moving in with The Chimporor down in Paraguay when the dust settles... Maybe Chimpy will let him advise on how to clear brush in an rainforest, or just be the hired yard help.. Either way I'm hopin he ain't got no future as a lawyer in this country anymore after 08............P.S. take John Yoo and all the rest of that pack of assholes with you when you leave the country you prick...JD
Support the RHETORIC! This has got to be the weirdest leftist theory yet.
Yeah, I'm a "leftist" because I believe more in supporting issues than candidates. Gotcha.
Pick your issues. Form coalitions. Support candidates who REALLY back those issues (I agree, you'll get more Dems than Rethugs on that list) and echo the words of candidates who don't really support those issues but feel the need to do so rhetorically.
As in, when Arlen Specter says we need to restore confidence in the justice department say, "Good for you! That's exactly right! Now, explain again how Alberto Gonzales shouldn't be removed?"
When Chuck Hagel says that the war is off course and we need a serious strategy say, "Right on! Good! So, what is that strategy and will you help us get Republicans to support it?"
And when the Democrat chicken-littles come running and say "but but but...they're *gasp* REPUBLICANS!" tell them that you know and that's why you count your fingers after you shake their hands, but the fact of the matter is that if you DON'T follow up then they get to use progressive rhetoric to their advantage with no accountability.
I’m a CAUCUS VOTER. You should elect the best Democrat you can run.
I'm a conscience voter. I appreciate the advice, but I'm satisfied to vote for the candidates who most support the things I support, in deed and action. Electability be damned.
See, I have this thing called a "sense of right and wrong." I know, it's a birth defect. Can't seem to shake it, tho. Sorry. Want my vote, I'm afraid you're just going to have to pander to me.
How do you find out who is the best Democrat to vote for? Find out who the person IS, not what they say. Taste the food, don’t buy the wrapping.
Right. Tell me again how Joe Lieberman got the Veep slot?
Look, you want independents to vote for Democrats? You have to earn it. You don't get there by just insulting us for not playing your game.
Try again.
Only by having enough votes can we change the situation for the better.
"Give us one-party rule or nothing will happen. We won't even bother to try."
Feh. Tyranny by any other name.
What gonzo gets to screw us twice?
Dear JasonS, I'd propose if I wasn't already seeing someone. :) I'm another indy voter; I can be wooed. I want to be wooed, and I'm likely to vote Dem because the alternatives (in order) are a 9/11 dropping do-nothing with a habit of hiring child-molesting priests and corrupt officials, a five-time father whose kids are too special to go to a war he supports who hires campaign aids/supers who impersonate police officers in order to corral the media at his events; an old soldier (a plus of sorts) who has, to be fair, stood up on the issue of torture but not on the war's legality; an ex-actor who appears to chronically be unable to decide if he wants to be prez and has otherwise not distinguished himself; a minister who is apparently putting his mouth where his faith is (I remain unconvinced that Jebus wants us out there and I'm quite sure a theology degree is not, in fact, equivalent to a Masters or better in International Diplomacy); and Ron (baby-with-the-bathwater) Paul.
However, if anyone in the Dem party's leadership is listening: look, for the love of god, distinguish yourselves from the Republicans. I, for one, will remember the contempt voters are being treated with.
JasonS @ 91:
No, you support RHETORIC about issues, not ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
When voting for politicians, vote on their record, not their campaign speeches.
Leftists follow the rhetoric, because their opposition is mainly rhetorical. We're pure and right, and we only vote for the pure and right. None of them win -- but that's not our problem.
CAUCUS GOVERNMENT.
It's not the individual candidate that matters. It's the collective -- enough VOTES to make things happen (not just minority nays that plead for purity in the face of FAILURE).
carol @ 29:
Actually... that's a bloody BRILLIANT idea. How about it Admins? How about we organize a 'support' drive for Gonzo and send him letters of 'support' along with supplies of monopoly money to help in his defense fund? Monopoly money being particularly appropriate for the situation.
What do you think? I'm sure we can generate a few million bucks for poor ol' persecuted Gonzo.
Paul in LA @ 95:
I'd agree with you except for the fact that the record is gathering dust, if you catch my drift. Something (and I've got my pet theories) is happening up there and politicians on the left are not voting with their records or their speeches (especially the whoopers from the 2006 elections.) I'm all for looking at the record, but in tandem with their statements. At this point, any appeals to party loyalty for the caucus are going to fall short; I refuse to waste my vote on candidates I think will do the same kinds of things I'm already seeing. Especially if they're basically telling me so upfront. There's something contemptuous in how long those Dem representatives intend to rest on the 'waiting for the advantage' or 'let's just wait it out' arguments.
And I object to the fatalism behind "nothing will change, let's make 'real-world' decisions." I intend to change things as much by my votes as actions.
E in MD @ 96:
My kids and I could likely spare a couple thousand in Monopoly money. And I'm fairly sure I could craft an obnoxiously sympathetic letter. Where can I sign up?
If Bush isn't president when he gets a sentence handed down to him, he'll have to take it up the arse like Libby should have. Somehow I can't see a dem president pardoning him.
Paul in LA @ 95:
Rhetoric is telling us if we don't support Bush we don't support the troops.
Rhetoric is telling us that it's ok to torture people as long as certain people do it.
Rhetoric is telling me that I must have something to hide if I don't want Bush's frat buddies poking around in my underwear drawer.
Rhetoric is telling me that if I mention Bush overstepping his authority to suspend habeas corpus that I am a traitor.
Rhetoric is publicly burning the CD's of a music group because they don't tow your party line.
Rhetoric is constantly attacking 'liberals' and 'leftists' and 'secularists' because we don't want to support a criminal theocratic oligarchy to take the place of our representative constitutional republic.
I don't give a damn about rhetoric. I don't give a damn about speeches. I don't give a damn what someone's voting record is. I care about what they're doing -right now- to ensure that justice is done and the American people are protected. Not just from threats abroad but from the sociopaths and criminals in charge of our own damned government.
I care about making sure some bureaucratic appointee doesn't break into your house and shoot you in the damned head or haul you off for a CIA sponsored swimming lesson because your name 'sounds Arabic' or because let your dog shit on his lawn once too often.
So you can kiss my Leftist ass, you sanctimonious prick.
mouthy b @ 98:
You can find more details here: Lets all help poor Alberto
Including the PO Box address that Alan G. Mulally the President and CEO of Ford Motor Company, David G. Leitch the Senior Vice President and General Counsel of the Ford Motor Company and the board of directors uses to receive information from share holders and customers. I'm sure Alan wouldn't mind forwarding our generous donations to our good buddy David so that he can help Alberto out of hyper-politicized pickle.
I am for dragging this bastards case, along with all the other's, under this administration, on until we get this snake out of office.
We may then be able to get some justice out of our system if we do.
citizentwenty @ 42:
I own a Ford vehicle and I think it will be my last Ford product I ever buy. No corporation should be supporting Gonzo.
mouthy b @ 97 "Something (and I've got my pet theories) is happening up there and politicians on the left are not voting with their records"
There are not enough caucus votes to do more. Do the math. You can vote pure for persons who won't get elected, or you can take a caucus perspective. Obviously, that's not a presidential issue; I'm talking about Representatives (and Senators, but mostly Representatives).
truthfinder @ 103 "I own a Ford vehicle and I think it will be my last Ford product I ever buy."
Life is too short to own Fords.
E in MD @ 100 "So you can kiss my Leftist ass, you sanctimonious prick."
I see you didn't understand my point.
Paul in LA @ 104:
The thing about not doing anything is that (surprise) nothing gets done. The thing about setting up a two-instance case, either throw away votes or vote by caucus is that it ignores other possibilities. I'm for replacing Pelosi and Reid (and anyone else I catch lying about it; us idealists do watch the actions, too), and I'm voting for Kucinich (have you seen the man's record? MSM doesn't have to take him seriously for him to be a contender, not now that another source of news is available- hint: you're on it. Check the DFA and MoveOn polls. See, I can do things like write and/or campaign to replace representatives who don't fulfill their promises and vote my conscience. And I can live with myself afterwards. If you could possibly stop naysaying and look at the records and the 'rhetoric' (and as an English major, I take umbrage with the negativity of that assertion), and then go do somethin' about it, maybe we can vote for the same kinds of people. Until then, stop trying to reality check via raining on the parade. It'll go on whether or not we get wet; though I suppose, to drop the analogy, if you came up with a good enough reason for me to change my mind, I would.
But 'til then, God knows there's enough pessimism to go around between the economy, the eroding Constitution and the war.
Coming to Fox News Network next Labor Day.
Jerry Lewis hosts the Republican Defense Fund Telethon.
i'm willing to contribute a wet fart.
mouthy b @ 107 "The thing about not doing anything is that (surprise) nothing gets done."
A great deal has gotten done, but when dealing with a collapse like we've had, a lot of the work done is in shoring up from further collapse. For this work, the Democrats will never get credit from leftists, because they themselves love to pretend that everything on earth was just fine until the last election, and so when something like extending the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to LGB persons occurs, leftists act like this was, after all, our rights, so why should Democrats get credit for that? When minimum wage goes up, leftists say, well, they should have been higher anyhow. It's a no-win model, in which actual continued structural weakness is considered moral weakness, which is clearly an incorrect analysis.
"The thing about setting up a two-instance case, either throw away votes or vote by caucus is that it ignores other possibilities."
The caucus nature of this government is the singular fact leftists love to ignore, with their fetish for pure leaders.
"I'm for replacing Pelosi and Reid (and anyone else I catch lying about it; us idealists do watch the actions, too),"
Speaker Pelosi is the most progressive Speaker in US history. If you were to 'replace' her, you would be replacing her with Steny Hoyer. Because 'anything is possible to people with no context for their analysis,' you and many others don't understand that simple fact. The Progressive caucus in the House is powerful, but Pelosi became unavailable, it is doubtful that anyone could stop Hoyer. NO ONE outside of those two is coming to that chair in the next five-ten years (the usual term of Speakers) by any forseeable future.
"I'm voting for Kucinich (have you seen the man's record?"
Rhetoric. His nay-voting on bills which are passing may look like accomplishments to some, but they are only rhetorical events. Compared to him, Rep. Conyers accomplishes more in one week than Rep. Kucinich has accomplished EVER. And there are many other examples.
Purity of rhetoric is the fundamental litmus testing of leftists, apparently because their own rhetoric interferes with appreciating effective representation in those who are actually compromising and getting things done.
[NO ONE outside of those two is coming to that chair in the next five-ten years (the usual term of Speakers) by any forseeable future (if the elections are fairly held).]
I'm going to pretend I didn't see several attacks on my IQ in 110. Though I'm not surprised you're passionate about all this (we all are or we wouldn't be here), I'd like to think we could do this without too much rancor. Hope I'm managing to be at least circumspect, if not polite.
Actually I'm quite pleased with the extension of the Non-Discrimination Act extension. That's been overdue for forever. I was amazed three years ago when doing research on feminism and GLBT rights to discover no Constitutional guarantees against persecution via sexual orientation. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but I've been surprised before by the ranges of opinions people have.
Are you speaking of the continuing decline of the dollar, the erosion of the Constitution, the various natural disasters and physical infrastructure collapses, the removal of our manufacturing infrastructure via NAFTA and the WTO, the infiltration of our government by underqualified religious graduates, the gutting of our social programs, the rising debt, the attempted religious coup, the destruction of our military or the destruction of our diplomatic reputation? Cause these are the things I'm concerned about, in terms of disasters. And from what I see, the compromises (like Mukasey, the continued tabling of impeachment, the unwillingness to fine companies that outsource the majority of their labor, etc) are actually perpetuating the existing problems. So you're damn skippy I'm not pleased nor voting for people whose plans for repairs do not even begin to repair what I see going wrong.
That's some awful bitter generalizing about leftists you're doin' there. I don't think the Democratic party should be quite so sure they can scoop up the indy votes unless they go about seriously distinguishing themselves. I'll be voting Dem, but not majority Dem, and I'm thinking about registering as one so I can put my candidate up by at least one more vote.
It's not too late to have some hope, man. It can be fixed, it just won't be simple.
My cats say they could contribute something from the cat box.
mouthy b @ 112 "That's some awful bitter generalizing about leftists you're doin' there."
I've met both kinds. The ones who talk and do nothing are the main ones around here. The ones who work for a better future ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.
"I don't think the Democratic party should be quite so sure they can scoop up the indy votes"
As I have said, I'm mainly talking about Congressional elections, not the Presidency. Who you actually send to Washington, though, is the main point.
I agree that there are two kinds of people in this sense (although I try to be careful with the whole one or the other argument.) I think we've all met people who like to talk more than they like to do and people who feel like they need to do (but talking would be easier.) I can't say what I think the people around here are all doing; I see some calls to action and a lot of pessimism, which I find attractive after I've been reading the news, but cannot indulge in too often (or at least I try not to.) I worry a little about the pessimism, no matter how understandable I might find it, because nothing changes when we mope.
As far as doing, even though I know you didn't ask, I hope that writing my congresspeople (and the congresspeople on bills I am concerned with that are not my direct representatives, to scold or thank them for their votes), that supporting and occasionally helping with protests, reminding people to vote and trying to actively make politics a part of the conversations around me are helpful. I bring politics to as many places as I can because I think that, if nothing else, making people articulate their beliefs will help them think about them and I hope to sneakily change people's minds on occasion by the very fact that they have to listen to themselves say what they're thinking to someone else. (Also by asking leading questions.) I'd love to contribute money, but I am dirt-ass poor right now and worried from month to month about utilities, groceries and keeping a phone. Thank god the bf pays for cable or I wouldn't be here on the tubes right now.
I agree; who we send to Washington is the point, and the one I am trying to change.
Paul in LA @ 106:
Your point is that Lefties only care about rhetoric. That is precisely what you said. Which is and of itself, right wing rhetoric along the same lines as "Democrats should stay home on election day because your votes don't matter anyway."
And my response is that if it were Clinton in office torturing people, suspending habeas corpus, searching the email and mail of an American citizen I'd be just as pissed off as it was Bush and I liked Clinton and voted for him twice. No president or administration should have this much power no matter who's team he's playing on. This isn't a monarchy or a dictatorship. The President's power comes directly from the people through the Constitution so he should never be allowed to just toss parts of it aside because they're inconvenient. If you don't like that then freaking move to Syria or Saudi Arabia or something.
If we're tossing aside the Constitution, then he is NOT the President. This is NOT America. We are not a nation and I don't freaking owe him or you anything.
So take your self righteous attitude and cram it.
Paul in LA @ 110:
Blah blah blah, Lefties bad, blah blah blah. Yes yes Righties are the paragons of virtue they hallucinate that they are. They always help the country and never ever do anything bad.
So I guess we should all vote for the theocrat courting, thrice divorced, First Amendment crushing, 'I'd have to think about whether it's right to arrest people without a warrant' who put his emergency center in a building that'd already been hit by terrorists and bought inferior radios for his emergency service personnel because he was in cahoots with Motorola for President. Who I might add, runs on the platform of 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, and in case he didn't mention it, 9/11 and if you don't vote for him 9/11 will 'pale by comparison'. He's also more George Bush than George Bush and from what I hear most New Yorkers can't stand him.
The only Republican I'd even consider voting for is Ron Paul and I don't agree with a lot of his 'unfettered market capitalism' ideas or his 'abortion should be illegal' stance. But at least he believes in the Constitution.
Gravel, if he's still in it by the time the primaries hit, will be getting my vote. But he has a chance in hell since he's not 'snazzy' or 'sexy' enough for most people and reminds them of their crazy granpa Joe or something and because the more mainstream candidates won't even let him in the room. But when it comes down to any Republican (Because Ron Paul doesn't have a chance) and Clinton I will be voting against the Republican and that's basically the bottom line. There is no 'pure' candidate and I don't trust any of them. Edwards still has a lot to answer for for his vote to invade Iraq despite the knowledge that the yellowcake justification was false. Kucinich and Reid I can at least respect because both of them are making stands ( finally ) against this out of control administration. Nancy Pelosi should be impeached if only because she refuses to even consider impeachment, which is her DUTY when the executive branch starts committing felonies.
But just like you and everyone else out there, when election time rolls around you'll end up voting for the lesser of two evils. Because in this system you only get column A and Column B and neither party has done as much as it really could for this nation when it needed them. The Dems in the Senate and House could have shut the government down if they had the balls to do it using the exact same tactics the Republicans are using right now. But they haven't. They're waiting and biding their time and I for one am tired of the mock chess game the Congress has become. I give them credit for the little bit they've accomplished but allowing the Republicans to rule from the minority isn't something i'm happy with especially with Americans dying in some hellhole.
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