"Everyone who's run a half a billion dollars knows that."

My favorite quote... like almost everybody's run a 1/2 bill at one time or another in his life.

George screwed up our foreign policy, our domestic policy, our moral highground, our repution, and our leadership position on most of the important issues these days...now, in his final act, we are seeing that his economic policies have been equally disastrous. As we face a WAVE of retirees and debt, we will be very limited in how we can even attempt to get out of this economic jam. All in all, a complete and total eight year clusterfuck. Well done, junior.

Tweety is in mourning over Hillary's win and I don't think he will get over it very soon. All of the staff at MSNBC are so sad. Andrea Mitchell is really disappointed and it shows. Poor Mika is just so devastated because her Dad supports Obama and I guess she supports her Dad. MSNBC sure sucks when it comes to not showing their bias. Too bad, the rest of us don't get a chance to see a celebration......guess I could change the station, but I'm afraid I'll miss Tweety do something stupid.Probaly won't have to wait long.

most of the time chris matthews makes no sense when he talks.
in fact, he mostly sounds like the trailer trash that appears on the
afternoon judge shows on tv.

ray @ 4:

George screwed up our foreign policy, our domestic policy, our moral highground, our repution, and our leadership position on most of the important issues these days...now, in his final act, we are seeing that his economic policies have been equally disastrous. As we face a WAVE of retirees and debt, we will be very limited in how we can even attempt to get out of this economic jam. All in all, a complete and total eight year clusterfuck. Well done, junior.

bush/cheney are demonically devoted to financially bankrupting the entire
middle class in America.

I am going to take Cramers side on this one about the $.5B quote. What he is saying by that is that anyone who has run significant money knows that all this talk about fiscal stimulus and tax rates don't have any impact on the economy. He is calling the entire republican party liars.

Everyone here should be far more panicked than they are. We are facing a potential downturn of great depression size.

What's the capital of of the USA? About a buck eighty!

If you bankrupt the country, you don't have to pay social security. Well done George.

Don From Canada @ 16:

If you bankrupt the country, you don't have to pay social security. Well done George.

It's even worse than that, the predominant currency in trhe world is the dollar, it will be a global depression.

VegasRage @ 18:

Don From Canada @ 16:

If you bankrupt the country, you don't have to pay social security. Well done George.

It's even worse than that, the predominant currency in trhe world is the dollar, it will be a global depression.

Exactly. Sure, a lot of countries have been switching to the Euro the past two years or so, but the dollar still dominates as far as what assets/debts are based on. If the USD plunges further as the economy falls apart, it's going to take the rest of the world with it. It's not like the US is some backwater 3rd world country with little impact on the global economy.

I ... am ... fucking ... scared

VegasRage @ 18:

Don From Canada @ 16:

If you bankrupt the country, you don't have to pay social security. Well done George.

It's even worse than that, the predominant currency in trhe world is the dollar, it will be a global depression.

Not if countries dump their dollars and buy up Euros. They will take an immediate hit but hanging on to deflating value of the dollar would be worse.Resort areas in India are already refusing dollars. The Haitian currency has been gaining on the dollar. On top of all of that BushCo LLC wants to borrow $ 145 billion to stimulate his trickle down economic theory.
Holy Crap! WTF! where is that bottle of Jack Daniels!

Foxy @ 19:

Betty, Obama lost by 6 points.

Anyway, I've been saying this all along, the economy is going to tank an soon. I would not be surprised if we enter a depression by the general election, espiscially if we keep spending so high and borrowing so much. Also, imagine if there's another natural disaster on the scale of Katrina then you're going to see a bad turn of events. Dems have got the White House already but it's going to be desperate even for the dems to try and fix super spending and tax cuts to the rich. They really need to put a cap on CEO salaries. Those salaries went up, from the '60s, sometimes by 300%.

God help us. I hope I can still go to school.

For your sake and for the sake of so many others I hope it is not the school of hard knocks. Us old timers can withstand the storm. We have lived through bad times before. But I worry about the youth and wonder if they can find the inner strength it takes to live more simply. Whatever the future holds, we must all watch out for one another against the corporate fat cats who are destroying what we have. We need a revolution. We need to take back the night. We need justice.

Doesn't matter if you like Tweety (his voice hurts my ears) or Cramer (don't have to scream). They are right (for once) Look at the stock market, the dollar, gold, oil, housing, credit. Look at the national debt - we owe $9,000,000,000,000 mainly to Middle eastern and Asian countries and that doesn't even count the $50,000,000,000,000 (give or take a few trillion) that the government is liable for in SS/medicare. How are we even going to be able to pay the flippin' interest on this? The bill collector is at the door.

If you believe what you're being told you should believe, step back, and do something different. Just a suggestion.

How's about a 125% tax on any war profit that at least pays for the tax rebates. If they can lend a 125% of the value of a house don't tell me we can't possibly tax at a 125%. Maybe next time these goons wouldn't be so gung- ho if they knew it would come out of their wallets since they never step onto the battlefield< like the coward Bush when he har his big chance while over in the middle east last week.

It's not the R word they should be worried about, it's the D word, Depression. Man this stimulus they are talking about, Dems and Bush is just throwing money. Consumer confidence is not going to go up with an 800 dollar shopping spree--by the way a spree to buy stuff made somewhere else. People are drowning in debt, losing jobs and no vision for nothing. We diluted the campaign talk to idiotic nuance at a time when we need Bold action. It's the economy stupid is apropos at this time. These guys so fucked up with pumping the economy with steroids: false interest rates, over production in housing, bad lending. I do not believe in capital punishment, but I think we need to punish the capital class. I worked through the S& L crisis with the RTC, looks like it's gonna be billions of government bail outs again. Meanwhile, the Republican idiots are dorking with an octaganarian, a hick preacher, a dead white actor and a egotistical New Yorker.

So, kids, lets stop arguing about he said she said and how much you may hate Hillary, and how much Obama will save us, don't need saviours, we need lots of hard work by everyone. We need an FDR.

Betty @ 1:

Why don't we concentrate a little more on TODAY'S news.

Re: TODAY'S news - for an answer what happened in Nevada (and not only) watch this:

Most Important Issue For 2008 Voters

it made me laugh histerically, somewhat less funny today: it is TRUE !!
Watch it all, every little thing IS true.

With catastrophic US monetary situation now (Fed Reserve's existence once again at the center [not federal, and not any reserve =>> vampire sucking out all US economy money, at the neck, no escape for anybody !] ) chickens came home to roost . Economic bailout needed for U.S. economy, experts say. We might never get to any election in November, with martial law in a few weeks/ months, due to civil unrest of desperate people.

go to and read: http://jsmineset.com/

"" Posted On: Friday, January 18, 2008, 6:29:00 PM EST
The End of a Powerful Week in Finance
Author: Jim Sinclair

Bush's $150 Billion Stimulus Plan for Economy:"this is the "Brown Paper Bag" plan:

Trust us. We have a plan and you will be informed as soon as the plan is formulated. There is no Plan B because we are still working on Plan A. Now we do know the number, $150 billion. Now we have to see where that is coming from. You will be informed in time. Please do not call us. We will call you. "" (cont.)

and this: http://jsmineset.com/
Posted On: Thursday, January 17, 2008, 5:45:00 PM EST
The Panic Starts
Author: Jim Sinclair

Unless the equity markets can be calmed, a panic is about to happen, making the statement "This is it" a horrible reality.

If the equity markets cannot be calmed then:

* Recognize this is the Formula happening like everything else much sooner and much bigger in its implications than anticipated.

* Gold will rise to $1650 as an almost immediate effect of what will be done to attempt to fend off a total panic starting to take place in general equities, therein threatening to be followed by all credit markets of all kinds ..
(cont)

Before you get too depressed/ drunk/stoned to feel better, see this below, and pay attention to gold ! It all falls in place - not a satire any more ...

NEW BUSH COINS

plse watch till the end, the final 'public announcement' re: NOLA

Not enough people listen to John Edwards nor think about systemic corruption to the core in DC. Who will pay for all of this? Many of the mad-cowed sheeple who voted/ will for Hill-shill, or Obama, in Nevada and other states, and YOU and ME !!!

Most people think the great depression was an over night event.

Not true. It started with a stock market crash in 29. Then a minor recovery, and then over the next four years everything went down the tubes.

heard murder by numbers (police) last verse hit a nerve..

But you can reach the top of your profession
If you become the leader of the land
For murder is the sport of the elected
And you dont need to lift a finger of your hand

Because its murder by numbers, one, two, three
...

tjb @ 41:

And o by the way I was at a meeting last week that spanned 20 somethings to 90 year olds and my take is these kids ain't going to be into selling apples.

Reality is going to hit them hard. Real hard.

L.A. Confidential @ 38:

Most people think the great depression was an over night event.

Not true. It started with a stock market crash in 29. Then a minor recovery, and then over the next four years everything went down the tubes.

WWII pulled the U.S. out of the Great Depression.

Some historians have written that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming and welcomed it.

Jo @ 26:

Foxy @ 19:

Betty, Obama lost by 6 points.

Anyway, I've been saying this all along, the economy is going to tank an soon. I would not be surprised if we enter a depression by the general election, espiscially if we keep spending so high and borrowing so much. Also, imagine if there's another natural disaster on the scale of Katrina then you're going to see a bad turn of events. Dems have got the White House already but it's going to be desperate even for the dems to try and fix super spending and tax cuts to the rich. They really need to put a cap on CEO salaries. Those salaries went up, from the '60s, sometimes by 300%.

God help us. I hope I can still go to school.

For your sake and for the sake of so many others I hope it is not the school of hard knocks. Us old timers can withstand the storm. We have lived through bad times before. But I worry about the youth and wonder if they can find the inner strength it takes to live more simply. Whatever the future holds, we must all watch out for one another against the corporate fat cats who are destroying what we have. We need a revolution. We need to take back the night. We need justice.

I'd say it's a pretty good school that knows the problems we are going to encounter and are encountering right now (it begins with the middle two letters of my screen name).

I've been telling everyone - my parents, friends, family, teachers and politicians that the bubble is going to burst very, very soon and everyone will be wondering what on earth happened. My father and mother laughed at me when I said that they won't have jobs in a year's time and that they should stock up on essentials like food and clean water. Everyone laughed at me. You know how hard it is to get laughed at when it's something this serious. It hurt my feelings to know that people are in denial and ignoring the facts, and humiliate those that do. Anyway, some are still doing that but people that I know personally are now looking at me with faces of horror that I was right. I'm ready for the depression but I don't know if the majority of the world is and I believe it is not ready for even a recession let alone a depression. I just hope those soup lines are long for new comers at those homeless shelters.

Be prepared. Don't buy anything not really needed. And buy used stuff if you possibly can. Lots of used things are made better than the garbage that is out there. Learn to do all your own maintainance.

Don't wait for a run on the banks. Be liquid. Have flexibility.

exactly 49. How in the world do politicians do it? They don't use conventional mathematics. They use pretend math.

Foxy @ 46:

Jo @ 26:

Foxy @ 19:

Betty, Obama lost by 6 points.

Anyway, I've been saying this all along, the economy is going to tank an soon. I would not be surprised if we enter a depression by the general election, espiscially if we keep spending so high and borrowing so much. Also, imagine if there's another natural disaster on the scale of Katrina then you're going to see a bad turn of events. Dems have got the White House already but it's going to be desperate even for the dems to try and fix super spending and tax cuts to the rich. They really need to put a cap on CEO salaries. Those salaries went up, from the '60s, sometimes by 300%.

God help us. I hope I can still go to school.

For your sake and for the sake of so many others I hope it is not the school of hard knocks. Us old timers can withstand the storm. We have lived through bad times before. But I worry about the youth and wonder if they can find the inner strength it takes to live more simply. Whatever the future holds, we must all watch out for one another against the corporate fat cats who are destroying what we have. We need a revolution. We need to take back the night. We need justice.

I'd say it's a pretty good school that knows the problems we are going to encounter and are encountering right now (it begins with the middle two letters of my screen name).

I've been telling everyone - my parents, friends, family, teachers and politicians that the bubble is going to burst very, very soon and everyone will be wondering what on earth happened. My father and mother laughed at me when I said that they won't have jobs in a year's time and that they should stock up on essentials like food and clean water. Everyone laughed at me. You know how hard it is to get laughed at when it's something this serious. It hurt my feelings to know that people are in denial and ignoring the facts, and humiliate those that do. Anyway, some are still doing that but people that I know personally are now looking at me with faces of horror that I was right. I'm ready for the depression but I don't know if the majority of the world is and I believe it is not ready for even a recession let alone a depression. I just hope those soup lines are long for new comers at those homeless shelters.

Pretty damned good school! One of my favorite characters in a book went to Baliol. As a lover of most things British, I have to say I am envious!! ; )

We are ready for the depression, hell, our family just got out of the last one! Good luck with your studies.

Crack Whore Economics - If I can get a dollar (beg, borrow, steal, earn or find), then I have to spend it on my addiction (war, rich, status, etc.)

We have a Crack Whore running the country, it is a sad day.

mattjd215 @ 54:

Crack Whore Economics - If I can get a dollar (beg, borrow, steal, earn or find), then I have to spend it on my addiction (war, rich, status, etc.)

We have a Crack Whore running the country, it is a sad day.

Colorful. I like it. May I use it in my writing?

Thank the Ron Paul revolution for the honesty that permeates the air on the economy.

Cramer is a Paulite.

Foxy @ 53:

Jo @ 52:

Foxy @ 46:

Jo @ 26:

I'd say it's a pretty good school that knows the problems we are going to encounter and are encountering right now (it begins with the middle two letters of my screen name).

I've been telling everyone - my parents, friends, family, teachers and politicians that the bubble is going to burst very, very soon and everyone will be wondering what on earth happened. My father and mother laughed at me when I said that they won't have jobs in a year's time and that they should stock up on essentials like food and clean water. Everyone laughed at me. You know how hard it is to get laughed at when it's something this serious. It hurt my feelings to know that people are in denial and ignoring the facts, and humiliate those that do. Anyway, some are still doing that but people that I know personally are now looking at me with faces of horror that I was right. I'm ready for the depression but I don't know if the majority of the world is and I believe it is not ready for even a recession let alone a depression. I just hope those soup lines are long for new comers at those homeless shelters.

Pretty damned good school! One of my favorite characters in a book went to Baliol. As a lover of most things British, I have to say I am envious!! ; )

We are ready for the depression, hell, our family just got out of the last one! Good luck with your studies.

Thanks. I might be studying at a British school and have to conform to British society, I'm an American at heart. I love my country even more after being over here and consequently understand it better.

Balliol is one of the most famous and prestigious of the colleges. It's in the same league as Christ Church, Corpus Christi, etc. I have a tutor right now from Oriel, another great college. I'm taking a class on Terrorism and the Second World War.

I think it takes traveling to other countries to really appreciate just how wonderful our country is in so many ways. Sounds like some tough studies, but interesting. If you ever get a chance to see Balliol, there is a portrait of Lord Peter Wimsey hanging there. Dorothy Sayers, who wrote about him went up to Oxford. She was one of the first women graduates and an amazing woman.

Bush's "Ownership Society" where more people own homes than ever before... his Ownership just torpedoed the Mothership!

This little $300 per taxpayer rebate is just so ridiculous. The only way I can make sense out of it is to guess that the mob somehow got Bush to agree to it, and they're taking bets right now on by how much it will impact the economy and when. I just know this has to be true. There's no other logical explanation for it. Their bookies are out taking bets as we write.

Linda @ 64:

This little $300 per taxpayer rebate is just so ridiculous. The only way I can make sense out of it is to guess that the mob somehow got Bush to agree to it, and they're taking bets right now on by how much it will impact the economy and when. I just know this has to be true. There's no other logical explanation for it. Their bookies are out taking bets as we write.

I want my rebate in Euros please mister deciderman.

Actually, you can keep your fucking rebate. Who do you think I am? A cheap date? Someone who can be bought off? Pathetic.

Let’s think about what was really being said. I heard a lot of code being said, but what stood out was the idea that the end of the second Gilded Age is going to come to an end in about 3 weeks.

Sure the United States and most of the world markets are going to cave. Sure those bloodsuckers that’ve drained our economy are going to start raining from the sky, (at least in cities with tall enough buildings). And sure, rough times are ahead for all, but on the bright side, the abuse that we’ve been bitching about from the corporate world will effectively come to an end.

The new savior for the next century will be a government agency with sharp and hungry teeth ready to tear into the meat of any corporation that attempts to “Shock Doctrine” us into submission.

Democrats are going to have a real hard time trying to prevent it from happening when homeless people start sleeping in front of their district offices like a scene from Soylent Green (its people).

The era of Reagan is finally coming to an end, let the rebuilding begin.

For the greedy rich, when the great depression hit bottom,their dollars now bought 10 times what it did before the depression (1 dollar=1 item,then 1 dollar=10 items...thus....great deal for them...thus...'I got mine,screw you.'....(no taxes for them..then.)

Sean Hannity said the economy is phenomenal the other day. These bumpkins don't even look out the windows of their limos anymore

-wow, they sure are eating their words now.

please dont worry and thiers no need to panic, after they take your house away and your checking account , just do as i plan to do , go to the nearest church find a nice pew spread out your bed roll and claim santuary, dont forget to bathe first as the congrigation on sunday frowns on smelling fart strained shorts and month old bo!

Contrast that with "Goldielocks" Larry Kudlow. Thank God for Cramer.
I don't want optimism, I don't pessimism I want to come as close as possible
to reality. Kudlow will never come close unless it's convenient or if it sounds good.

FDR is rolling in his grave and he's saying....EDWARDS '08 !!!

But...but...but..."Deficits don't matter. Reagan proved that." Dick Cheney.

We need a lotta rope.

"Poverty consists, not in the decrease of one's possessions, but in the increase in one's greed."

Good words to remember as the times take a turn for the worse.

Does Jim Cramer snort coke? He sure is "animated".

If war can't stimulate the economy enough to keep it out of recession nothing can.

Another thing: the major reason for the Depression was the government's monetary policy was so tight that it strangled our economy. This is not the case today. What we have to evaluate is how much this sub prime mess is going to cost so we can figure out true asset values. This is in one industry. What the Fed is trying to do is see that it doesn't spread to other industries. I believe that this is Bernake's major concern andd where his efforts lie.
I believe in him...and I believe in this country.
MBrillson

ray @ 4:

George screwed up our foreign policy, our domestic policy, our moral highground, our repution, and our leadership position on most of the important issues these days...now, in his final act, we are seeing that his economic policies have been equally disastrous. As we face a WAVE of retirees and debt, we will be very limited in how we can even attempt to get out of this economic jam. All in all, a complete and total eight year clusterfuck. Well done, junior.

We should NOT call busch a failure. The economic plan was always to eliminate the middle class. busch has achieved the success envisioned by his grandpappy.

mbrillson @ 87:

Another thing: the major reason for the Depression was the government's monetary policy was so tight that it strangled our economy. This is not the case today. What we have to evaluate is how much this sub prime mess is going to cost so we can figure out true asset values. This is in one industry. What the Fed is trying to do is see that it doesn't spread to other industries. I believe that this is Bernake's major concern andd where his efforts lie.
I believe in him...and I believe in this country.
MBrillson

No busch appointee has demonstrated any competence so I think your hopes are way too high. bernie is a deer in the headlights of the oncoming financial disaster freight train. you apparently have no idea of how far this problem extends or the ultimate consequences of a worthless currency backed by debt, which is pretty much what we have. with no productive capacity of any consequence as part of our domestic economy, there are few if any tangible assets to support the domestic economy or that can be used to help generate any economic recovery.

the middle class in this society was the reason our economy was able to recover. they have been marginalized and are under relentless attack by our economic controllers, the corporations.

the infrastructure is decaying badly and all funds are diverted to the war machine. we don't even have a national guard to help respond to disasters.

there will be no recovery as long as buscheneycorp is at the helm.

UnEasyOne @ 90:

there has been serious discussion of the perils of lowering interest rates, but not by anyone in the Washington Dummys' Circle

Tim @ 92:

Look up Don Harold on You Tube, He's been calling this a lot longer than cramer, in fact he ripped on cramer for months before we got where we are today.

Cramer is full of shit, he's just now coming clean.... asshole.

you got that right! CNBC is the MSNBC of finance, with no version of an Olberman to salvage any of their integrity.

The economy we have today goes way further than most people can even fathom. Most people stay relatively simple-minded when it comes to the economy. The current recession is the by-product of a different set of actions a few people are engaging in.

Here's another "bomb" of information for you all, some of you may already know:

In November 2000, Iraq began selling its oil in euros

In 2001, bankers financed a war to invade the middle east, using 9/11 (dubious day indeed) as a precept.

In 2003, US dollar paid soldiers invaded Iraq and took control of the oil fields and reverted the oil selling to US dollars.

In 2006 Iran started to sell oil in Euros, sparking the banker's US government subsidiary to threaten them with nuclear annihilation if they did not go back to US dollars. They, like Afghanistan and Iraq, refused. Have you noticed that since 2006 the US dollar has tanked? It's not a coincidence. The US bankers need to have oil sold in US dollars because if they don't, the economy will turn recession (it has already), causing unrest and a population unrested will start to question those who would rather remain unseen and unheard of.

Thus I can make a prediction that is 100% certain. If Iran continues this selling of oil in Euros and not US dollars, then the bankers will finance another war in Iran until they comply.

This is why there was an "incident" in the ocean with those small Iranian canoes that supposedly was a preemptive move of starting a war. This was supposed to be something that remained in the papers as words, but thankfully there are some patriotic folks who got this message out, in order to stop the insanity. OK, so the first method failed miserably. They will try another incident, perhaps with the Israelis. Bush went to the middle east and armed a whole bunch of people, Arabs, Sunnis, and the Israelis. The goal of this is to maintain the chaos, so that something has to give, sparking a US invasion of Iran, with a retaking of the Iranian oil fields and resuming the selling of oil in US dollars.

Folks, I know this sounds "crazy", and "nutty", and "conspiratorial", but I can assure you with all honesty that this is exactly what is happening.

The recession that is occurring is occurring exactly the same as all recessions occur. I know economics, and recessions/depressions ALWAYS, 100% each and every time, start the exact same way. There are no differences between one recession and the next, with the exception of which industries and firms will feel it first.

Recessions always begin with a few firms here and there, and then spreads. By the very process of what occurs, it is impossible to have everyone feel the hurt all at the same time. That is impossible. What most people are either too ignorant or too dishonest (I think most people are dishonest in the higher ranks, they have to be) to see is that just because there is one industry that gets hit first (from the process I will explain), then, and here's the most important part:

THE FIRST VICTIMS IN A RECESSION ARE NOT THE ONES WHO CAUSED IT.

Of course if you are anti-market you will hate the sub-prime lenders, after all, they are easy to target since they were the first to feel the effects.

The real reason why we have recessions is because of how money is created and distributed. The creation and distribution of money is run by a few folks who cannot know 100% how much the market should have in circulation. They can only make educated guesses. But since personal interests come before the interests of the nation, as they should in times where people are knowledgeable but in this case most people are not, they play the world like a game of monopoly.

Since people don't question this fact, the process will continue, as it always has continued. Sure there are people who have actually not only questioned it, but DID something about it, but they are assassinated.

Lincoln was assassinated for wanting to stop credit backed money,
Garfield was assassinated for wanting to stop credit backed money,
Kennedy was assassinated for wanting to stop credit backed money,

The next President will have to make a choice.

He/she can either stop credit backed money and fight for a world gold standard, or they can keep fiat in play, and battle other fiat nations for currency supremacy.

As long as there is fiat money in the world (we are not the only ones, therefore we will not be the only war mongers), there will be wars. Wars can only be paid for by fiat money. If they are financed 100% by tax, the people will revolt in every country whose government tries to start a war.

Since capitalism is the next phase in world history, the bankers want the US government subsidiary to "win".

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, and then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their father's conquered ... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies ... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the Government, to whom it properly belongs."

- Thomas Jefferson

Kramer will soon throw a screaming fit where he attacks the reality he helped create.

Sany @ 65:

All the Righties that Voted for Bush may soon get their just reward-A Major Depression. Good for all of them. There's no denying Karma. What goes around comes around!

Except that the mexicans are convenient scapegoats.

CoIntelPro @ 102:

Sany @ 65:

All the Righties that Voted for Bush may soon get their just reward-A Major Depression. Good for all of them. There's no denying Karma. What goes around comes around!

Except that the mexicans are convenient scapegoats.

Please stop, this isn't a left or right issue, this is a monetary policy that has been flawed for over a hundred years.

ION @ 100:

Kramer will soon throw a screaming fit where he attacks the reality he helped create.

He didn't "help" it anymore than the millions of other people who demanded low interest rates from the Fed after 9/11, which is what caused the problem.

I remember him a couple years back chastising the Fed for not lowering interest rates sooner. He was screaming on TV "THEY SHOULD LOWER THE RATES, PEOPLE ARE HURTING!!!"......or something to that effect.

But he has since had a revelation, because he discovered Ron Paul. Since he learned what REALLY causes economic problems, he is now siding with him and he even said (to Paul) something like "How come nobody understands what we understand?", as if he knew all along. When he was a trader (he no longer can trade because of his confessions of market manipulation or something), he directly profited from low interest rates.

People on Wall Street ALWAYS profit from low interest rates, because they can purchase stock at a relatively low price (due to them basically being given money out of thin air) before inflation rises prices in the economy and thus making business more profitable and thus have higher valued stock, creating a gain for the original stock buyer.

I know this is a progressive site, and that business is usually targeted, but I think we should call the duck a duck, and advocate for sound money.

Jim Rogers was echoing this sentiment a few years ago and the mainstream media ignored him.

PAPER IS POVERTY

You need hard assets, and you need to prepare now.

Doesn't matter if you hate Cramer.

I believe he is finally 'fessing up.

He's been a cheerleader for this fascist government for years now, and he has always known it was a house of cards.

The market has gone down a thousand points already in a very short time, and it's going to continue going down. I've been urging people here for a month or two to get their 401ks out of this god-damned, rigged stock market. I said that our 401ks were the last treasure chests that could be raided.

The raiding has already started.

And once more: Blame the corporate media in this country for keeping the majority of our citizens in the dark and feeding them lots of shit.

2008 is not the year for taking risks. You have to seriously consider the debt that the military-industrial complex has given us.

We don't produce anything, we exported many of our best jobs, we've exported our economy to Iraq, and we've sold out this country to foreign ownership.

The nation has been plundered by this administration and the neo-cons.

Abel @ 111:

Stellaa @ 67:

This is where the rubber has to hit the road...or whatever the expression is. This is the result of deregulation, privatization, supply side economics, entrepreneurship, free marketism, etc.etc. Yes, folks the Ronald Reagan, Republican great ideas. Capitalism is not democracy. Somehow people got it all twisted. You have to have both. Folks, or as McCain says: Friends, this is the fall of the Reagan/Freidman capitalist victory.

Guess what, capitalist have to be regulated, managed and contained. Our economy may not come out from this downcycle.

We don't have a free market. The Federal Reserve is one of the biggest examples of how we don't have a free market. Freidman was an idiots because he felt that the Federal Reserve was just fine, during the time that he had the most influence.

We already have a heavily regulated economy. "The Federal Register is not small; for example, the 2006 Federal Register was 69,428 pages long. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Register Any deregulation would have to be massive to have much of an effect. Some recent deregulation has had massive public outcry, like the FCC relaxing rules on station ownership. Also, examples like Enron are used to bash deregulation, yet Enron was breaking the law, deregulation had nothing to do with what they did. What did we get out of the spat of law breaking surrounding Enron? More regulation, in the form of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

I just don't see how the faults of an economy that is regulated by dozens of agencies and 69,000 pages of rules can be blamed on entrepreneurship or a free market.

We have 3 trillion dollars taken out of people's pockets through taxation. Where does this money go? A bunch of it goes to pay interest on the US governments debt, a bunch goes to the military industrial complex, and the rest goes to everything else. This is good fiscal policy? Take money from people that actually earned it and use it to pay some banks and to bomb Kosovo and Iraq? We're to believe that good economic policy is taking productive people, that might otherwise make bowling balls or cellphones, and have some military contractor pay them instead to build bombs and come up with better ways to kill people?

Fuck yeah Abel....nice post...

Down with the Fed!!!

They are the primary cause for ALL economics woes.

Drew @ 107:

This should put the problem into perspective...

Recessions/depressions always start when there is an undue increase in the quantity of money, brought about by the Fed. They increase the supply and create false prosperity, because the rapid introduction of money distorts investor's decisions. It must stop once inflation becomes apparent, and thus recession/depression starts.

Bernanke has said that he will not allow the money supply to shrink, he will continue to print money. But printing money is what caused the problem in the first place!!! Bernanke is going to destroy the US dollar, and we all can thank Milton Freidman's Chicago-ite fucktards for thinking that money creation should be placed in the hands of a few bankers protected by government FBI and CIA agents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Components_of_the_United_States_money...

Just look at where M3 stat WAS heading before the Federal Reserve "conveniently" stopped publishing it...For those who don't know, M3 is basically the amount of US dollars that is held overseas.

M1 is basically the free flowing money in this country that goes towards direct spending.

I will venture a guess and say that they don't publish M3 anymore because it will show how much the US is currently printing, and thus will show everyone how worthless the US dollar is today.

We need GOLD!!!!

Put 100 economist in a room and ask them what causes recessions/depressions and you will get 100 different answers. There is no consensus on the actual cause of them.

UnEasyOne @ 115:

Abel @ 111

Sure we have lots of regulations. Proves nothing.

It proves we do not have a free market. Many people would decry the current problems as failures of free market capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. We have a regulated economy. Any problems that we have should rightfully be blamed on that regulated economy, not on some failure of the free market since we do not have a free market.

Anyone else think that the Rebublicans screw up/steal the economy, so that when Dems get in office they HAVE to raise taxes to mop up the mess? Good cop/Bad cop?

Foxy @ 51:

Jo @ 48:

Be prepared. Don't buy anything not really needed. And buy used stuff if you possibly can. Lots of used things are made better than the garbage that is out there. Learn to do all your own maintainance.

Don't wait for a run on the banks. Be liquid. Have flexibility.

I agree. Survivors do this.

I shouldn't say this but I will. In most Cities there is a tremendous source of quality new and used goods for sale for pennies on the dollar. Light bulbs, aluminum foil, cleaners, laundry soap, clothing, tools, everything a person needs to live, often times priced at 25 cents per item. Where is this place? Me and my wife have been going there and shopping for years. You can get the best deals you will ever get in your life shopping there, and the quality often times is much higher than you could otherwise afford. The place to go? Estate sales. Everything in the home will be for sale. Very few times you will run into items that the familly wants to keep that are not for sale, but they are clearly marked. Here are a couple of links for the St. Paul/Mineapolis area. Both companies are good and run quaility sales.

If times get hard, and it sounds like they surely will, this info may help some of us get by. Anyone else have any tips?

http://www.estatesale1.com/

and

http://www.heritage-estatesales.com/website/Home_Heritagex.html

Abel @ 116:

UnEasyOne @ 115:

Abel @ 111

Sure we have lots of regulations. Proves nothing.

It proves we do not have a free market. Many people would decry the current problems as failures of free market capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. We have a regulated economy. Any problems that we have should rightfully be blamed on that regulated economy, not on some failure of the free market since we do not have a free market.

The sub-prime debacle was not caused by regulations... it was financial institutions and markets looking to circumvent existing regulations through the use of SIVs and unregulated hedge funds.

Free market capitalism was tried in this country before and it is known as the "Era of Robber Baron Capitalism", where you had a financial aristocracy, a very small middle class and the bulk of the population was dirt poor.

The sub-prime debacle was not caused by regulations… it was financial institutions and markets looking to circumvent existing regulations through the use of SIVs and unregulated hedge funds.

-----------------

True.

When the stock bubble was burst in 1929, the credit bubble went with it.
Deflation occured.

Greenspan engineered a new bubble to take the place of the stock bubble. Deflation was averted- for the time being.

With a burst housing bubble, the specter of deflation rises again.

The day of reckoning has simply been postponed.

Every boom ends in a bust. There are no exceptions.

Anyone else think that the Rebublicans screw up/steal the economy, so that when Dems get in office they HAVE to raise taxes to mop up the mess? Good cop/Bad cop?

Every boom ends in a bust. Coolidge and Hoover were both republican.
Hoover gets the bad press because the bust began after he took office.

The 1990's boom was largely a repeat of the 1920's boom.

It is written in stone that a bust will follow a boom. Yin and Yang.

The Great Depression did not end when Hoover left office. It continued well into Roosevelt's second term.

Fraud and corruption are hallmarks of economic boom times. Stock market fraud and housing market fraud.

After a Japanese stock bubble in the late 1980's, which collapsed, Americans embraced the nasdq bubble of the late 1990's. Even after the nasdaq bubble collapsed, China and other emerging markets have embraced their stock bubbles this decade.

Americans even embraced a housing bubble, after seeing the result of the nasdaq bubble. A lesson forgotten so quickly.

Rasputin @ 122:

Abel @ 116:

UnEasyOne @ 115:

Abel @ 111

Sure we have lots of regulations. Proves nothing.

It proves we do not have a free market. Many people would decry the current problems as failures of free market capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. We have a regulated economy. Any problems that we have should rightfully be blamed on that regulated economy, not on some failure of the free market since we do not have a free market.

The sub-prime debacle was not caused by regulations... it was financial institutions and markets looking to circumvent existing regulations through the use of SIVs and unregulated hedge funds.

Free market capitalism was tried in this country before and it is known as the "Era of Robber Baron Capitalism", where you had a financial aristocracy, a very small middle class and the bulk of the population was dirt poor.

Thanks for (trying) to insert reality back into this thread.

Check out this graphic from today's NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/01/20/business/20080120_INVEST_GR...

Looks like a major chunk of the US petrochemical industry is now under the control of Mideast oil producers.

"Looks like a major chunk of the US petrochemical industry is now under the control of Mideast oil producers."

Free trade is putting billions of dollars into foreign countries who are developing sovereign wealth funds (SWF). These SWFs are now buying equity interests in our companies.

So, if corporations and their lobbyists control our politicians, and foreigners increasingly control our corporations, who in fact controls our politicians? We need to make this issue front and center as we ask why our politicians don't adapt policies to benefit the United States.

Folks, stop being oblivious to the current events. We have been brainwashed by the main stream media with their false news and their distracting shows such as comedy, American idol, law and order, etc. Get busy with the real news and be concerned for your future.
Do your homework.

Sunday, January 20, 2008
"THE STING" ECONOMY

With housing prices falling, and consumers looking for money and credit, Citibank borrowed $500 million from the Federal Reserve in late August. In spite of Citibank being involved in subprime lending, their rationale was that it was the consumers and borrowers who needed money - so they were “pleased” to borrow and “inject liquidity into the financial system during times of market stress.”

Like dutiful stenographers, our increasingly worthless press wrote what the corporate press officers gave them. And all was good in the market because we all know that we can trust market players to ...( for more )

Check this site: http://www.markmartinezshow.blogspot.com/

Drew@97 Says:

In 2006 Iran started to sell oil in Euros, sparking the banker’s US government subsidiary to threaten them with nuclear annihilation if they did not go back to US dollars. They, like Afghanistan and Iraq, refused. Have you noticed that since 2006 the US dollar has tanked? It’s not a coincidence. The US bankers need to have oil sold in US dollars because if they don’t, the economy will turn recession (it has already), causing unrest and a population unrested will start to question those who would rather remain unseen and unheard of.

Thus I can make a prediction that is 100% certain. If Iran continues this selling of oil in Euros and not US dollars, then the bankers will finance another war in Iran until they comply.

This is why there was an “incident” in the ocean with those small Iranian canoes that supposedly was a preemptive move of starting a war. This was supposed to be something that remained in the papers as words, but thankfully there are some patriotic folks who got this message out, in order to stop the insanity. OK, so the first method failed miserably. They will try another incident, perhaps with the Israelis. Bush went to the middle east and armed a whole bunch of people, Arabs, Sunnis, and the Israelis. The goal of this is to maintain the chaos, so that something has to give, sparking a US invasion of Iran, with a retaking of the Iranian oil fields and resuming the selling of oil in US dollars.

Folks, I know this sounds “crazy”, and “nutty”, and “conspiratorial”, but I can assure you with all honesty that this is exactly what is happening."
___
Drew, Bush may have had an easy victory in throwing Hussein of Iraq out of his palace and that is due to Hussein's lack of support from the neighboring Arabs.
Hussein created enemies with the Emirates, Iran, and the Kurds, and therefore was a lone defender in this war.

Mind you, if Bush continues his trend in Iran, he is in for a surprise. Iran is more powerful than Iraq, in that Iran's twin brother the Russia will be fighting their war against the U.S. and Israel.
Not to forget, the Chinese and the other islamic fundies will be joining in their efforts.

NoBuddy @ 133:

"Looks like a major chunk of the US petrochemical industry is now under the control of Mideast oil producers."

Free trade is putting billions of dollars into foreign countries who are developing sovereign wealth funds (SWF). These SWFs are now buying equity interests in our companies.

So, if corporations and their lobbyists control our politicians, and foreigners increasingly control our corporations, who in fact controls our politicians? We need to make this issue front and center as we ask why our politicians don't adapt policies to benefit the United States.

Agreed!

And since Dow has already absorbed its biggest American rival (Union Carbide), Mideast oil producing states now control the entire product chain for their raw material. Given all the other geo-political considerations involved in addition to the economic ones, I find that disconcerting.

I think the rating of AAA on the repackaged securities has a greater share of the blame than Greenspan’s interest policies.

----------------------

All monetary roads lead to the FED.

Alan Greenspan wrote in the 1960's, that 1920's FED policy lead into the Great Depression. Greenspan repeated that easy money policy.

Alan Greenspan PRAISED reckless lending programs and did nothing to stop them.

AAA repackaging was a symptom of the problem, not a cause of the problem.

Greenspan facilitated and promoted a record credit bubble.

Bush fired Treasury secretary Paul O’Neil, former Charman of Alcoa for being fiscally responsible in opposing the tax cuts proposed by the Administration. He was also fired for pointing out that tax hikes, or budget cuts would be necessary to meet benefit promises made to future generations. This policy by the administration, backed by congress of abandoning fiscal responsibility has lead us to the present circumstances, probably one year earlier than Bush would have liked. So, there’s lots of blame to go around, and the Fed can only play the cards dealt by a fiscally irresponsible congress and White House.

---------------------

The FED has their own deck. You miss the Big Picture- a credit bubble created by Alan Greenspan, which created an economic boom in the 1990's and a housing bubble in this decade. Greenspan abandoned monetary responsibility.

After the stock bubble burst, deflation should have set in, as it did in 1930, due to a deflating credit bubble. Greenspan got home owners to borrow against their equity by dropping rates to 1% and Bush got the government to borrow a lot more.
This staved off deflation of the credit bubble, but now a larger credit bubble exists to deflate.

Nobody wants to experience the pain of an economic boom gone bust. All want to push off the day of reckoning. A successful stimulous package will simply push back the day of reckonng, but will not eliminate it.

There is a 500 trillion dollar derivatives bubble.

Great Depression deflation 1930-32.
great inflation recession 1980-82.
Recession- 1990-91.
Recesson 2001.

The last 3 recessions occured at the beginning of a decade. The Great Depression began at the beginning of a decade.

It might be that the great unravelling can be pushed back to 2010 or so, but the day of reckoning is coming, none the less.

"There is a 500 trillion dollar derivatives bubble."

Maybe "billion" - I doubt trillion. World GDP is about $50 Trillion. Anyhow Greenspan didn't hold a gun to people's heads and tell them to borrow against their houses. There's self-indulgent people paying 18% credit card interest also. But the only loans that are in trouble are the so called "sub prime" loans, in other words, loans that were unsuitable for the borrowers. The enabler on this was the packaging of these loans into "mortgage backed securities" and mis-characterized with an AAA rating. There's a so called credit crunch, maybe if the government wasn't running deficits and therefore borrowing, there would be more money elsewhere.

I think our problem is corruption and criminality.

Rasputin @ 123:

Abel @ 116:

UnEasyOne @ 115:

Abel @ 111

Sure we have lots of regulations. Proves nothing.

It proves we do not have a free market. Many people would decry the current problems as failures of free market capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. We have a regulated economy. Any problems that we have should rightfully be blamed on that regulated economy, not on some failure of the free market since we do not have a free market.

The sub-prime debacle was not caused by regulations... it was financial institutions and markets looking to circumvent existing regulations through the use of SIVs and unregulated hedge funds.

Free market capitalism was tried in this country before and it is known as the "Era of Robber Baron Capitalism", where you had a financial aristocracy, a very small middle class and the bulk of the population was dirt poor.

Financial institution like Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac and the Federal Reserve? Much of the sub-prime backed paper was rated AAA. Sounds like fraud to me. SIVs sound like a disaster waiting to happen, whether they were regulated or not. They require a high amount of liquidity which means they needed the artificially low interest rates from the Fed to continue indefinitely. Did SIVs circumvent regulation? If they did, sure sounds like someone was breaking the law and someone should be punished. If the SIVs were allowed because of a loophole in regulation, then how is that not the fault of poor regulation?

The idea of the Robber Barons is not nearly cut and dried as you seem to think it is. For example, Rockefeller's company brought the cost of kerosene down from $.28/gallon in 1870 to $.08/gallon in 1885. This was a time when the dollar was backed by gold, so inflation was pretty much nil. That represented a very real increase in the purchasing power of everyone. Carnegie did much the same with steel production. It's these sorts of increases in purchasing power that creates stronger middle classes. Also, the middle class had really started to expand at the start of the industrial revolution, which started a good half-century before any of the so-called robber barons appeared. There was also government intervention in certain industries. For example, the railroad industry was heavily subsidized by government to build transcontinental railroads. The vaunted anti-trust legislation was enacted when there was a rash of industrial mergers. But these new companies were continuing their pre-anti-trust business of increasing production and lowering prices. There is no evidence that there were out of control monopolies that needed to be reigned in.

"AAA repackaging was a symptom of the problem, not a cause of the problem."

I disagree. The reason lenders were making sub prime loans was because they were bundled and improperly graded AAA, which allowed the securities to be sold for more than would otherwise be the case. Had the securities been correctly graded as junk bond, the sub prime loan business would have been stopped in its tracks. Therefore the grading was the cause, not the symptom. It's like selling Yugos as Cadillacs. If I can sell Yugos at Cadillac's price, I'm going to manufacture a lot of Yugos. Instead, a lot of sub prime loans were "manufactured". The three rating services are Standard & Poor's, Moody's Investor Services and Fitch Ratings Service? Whoever was rating these securities needs to be investigated to determine whether deliberate misrepresentation of these securities was involved.

Incidentally, the availability of credit in the 1990s was facilitated somewhat by the federal government getting out of the borrowing business as Clinton began to balance the budget. Therefore, there was more money for other uses. Now, as the government continues to run deficits, there's a credit crunch. However, didn't stop Wachovia from sending me a flyer about how they'll finance a mortgage for me.

Now sure, there's lots of problems, huge deficits, huge credit card debt at interest rates that was considered usurious 2 generations ago, government corruption resulting in massive corporate welfare, bridges to nowhere and so forth. And those chickens are going to come home to roost. But the chicken that has already come home was the sub prime mortgage. If a crime was committed to facilitate this fiasco, I would sure like to see the perpetrators prosecuted.