Count Every Vote in Los Angeles
By Julia Rosen Tuesday Feb 05, 2008 9:00amfull disclosure: I work for the Courage Campaign
The Los Angeles County Registrar of Voters decided in they could save a few bucks by creating a complicated ballot design for the presidential primary. In 2008, that decision has now lead to the disenfranchisement of countless voters. What we don't know is the scope of the problem.
Here is the deal:
Almost 20% of California voters are registered as "Decline-to-State" (DTS). About 776,000 of these DTS voters live in Los Angeles County. To vote for President, like other DTS voters across the state, LA County DTS voters had to ask for a "Democratic Party ballot" on Tuesday (see funny, now prophetic video).
However, in Los Angeles County -- and only Los Angeles County -- these DTS voters were given a special "Democratic Party" ballot that required voters not only to fill out a bubble for their favorite Democratic Party presidential candidate, but ALSO to fill in a bubble at the top that they wanted to vote "Democratic" -- a redundant requirement. According to the Los Angeles County ROV, if the DTS voter didn't fill in the redundant "Democratic" bubble, their vote would not be counted.
This is what we are calling "double bubble trouble".
The Courage Campaign, thanks to our lawyer Steven Reyes' eagle eyes, discovered that a failure to mark the "Democratic" bubble resulted in the vote not being counted. Regardless of the clear-cut intentions of voters, the Los Angeles County Registrar of Voters (ROV) is refusing to do what is necessary to count these ballots.
Now, under a national spotlight, the ROV must do the right thing and count these votes correctly. Voter intent is clear. Missing the top bubble (and it's easy to miss) after you already asked specifically for a "Democratic" ballot -- and voted for a Democratic candidate -- should not mean that your vote goes uncounted.
This is not about the candidates. This is about making sure every vote is counted.
Help us fight to make sure every vote is counted and that this never happens again. Contribute now.
UPDATE: If you you are a DTS voter in Los Angeles and think you might have been effected or had troubles at the form, click here to report your story. If you still have your voting receipt, please enter in the number.
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Good work! It's outrageous that this type of bullshit is still happening! These attempts to subvert our elections are obvious and despicable. Yet after the debacles of the past two presidential elections, we still don't have serious election reform in this country. We are on the way to quickly becoming a corrupt, Third-World nation. Dammit, this is America and we can't even hold proper elections!
more at my blog...
Thank you so much for bringing attention to this!
What is their explanation for designing these cards asking the same question twice?
Do they have one?
Just how in the hell did they "save a few bucks" by making a complicated ballot design????
Its a funny commercial,and a serious problem. but the problem I have is that it utterly misrepresents the two parties in california. The *republican party* does not allow DTS voters to vote *at all* and they arent permitted access to republican party ballots. the democratic party in fact allows *declined to state* voters to vote in their primaries. The peculiar situation in los angeles county is very problematic but does it really come from some nefarious *prevent dts voters from voting* thing or from some bizarre *cost cutting measure* which led them to print ballots for *two different parties* on the same page?
aimai
Jeeeeezuuuus!!!
This is the kind of shit that makes my fuckin blood boil!
Which one's the Church Lady?
Was it...booooosh?
Eve @ 2:
The explanation is to disenfranchise as many Democrat voters as possible. The intent is to give victories to the Republican party. It's despicable, and the people that approve such a ballot should be charged with election fraud. There is simply no way to defend such a ballot - you know that the ballots for the republicans weren't like this. Purely an attack on democrats.
and leave it to the democratic party not to do a damn thing about this tragedy!
this reminds me of Al Gore and THE NEGLECTED APPEAL
or John Kerry and the REFUSAL TO INVESTIGATE OHIO or FLORIDA
Who says we are NOT a one-party state?
You'd think that after a couple hundred years of participatory democracy, we'd be have this stuff down. And yet we go trotting around the world monitoring elections to make sure that they are free and fair.
Jeez, it's just a little ballot faux pas. What's the worst that could happen?
demacracy at work..... well from Europe it looks increasingly like you Democracy is a fairy tail and ever has been one...
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander @ 7
I agree with you but the question I have is what in the hell is the Democratic Party thinking by not vetting these ballots before hand?
Are they that stupid? Gee, it's NOT LIKE WE'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM with voting shenanigans before here in America.
It would be nice to know the exact names of the individuals who are officially responsible for this so we can actually put some real people in the hot seat and let them squirm.
DaveTheAngryRhodeIslander Says: Good work! It’s outrageous that this type of bullshit is still happening! These attempts to subvert our elections are obvious and despicable. Yet after the debacles of the past two presidential elections, we still don’t have serious election reform in this country. We are on the way to quickly becoming a corrupt, Third-World nation. Dammit, this is America and we can’t even hold proper elections!
more at my blog…
Same old $hit. I'm afraid if the Democrats don't win this one, the party is doomed and the Republican party will go on as it is now.
This is a little off the subject, but write your representatives in congress and tell them they are becoming irrelevant.
It's not stupid if it's planned. It's amazing to me how the dems seem to do so much to further the repug goal of voter disenfranchisement. Where is Howard Dean?
OMG. Not another fraud claim from the Obama people because he didn't win CA.
Must admit I don't "get" the American way of voting. It's a very exciting and frustrating bloodsport, but I don't think it's efficient.
Here in Canada (don't get me wrong, we're not perfect either) - voting is private, private, private. No registration of your party affiliation at all. "They" do like to have your name on the list of eligible voters beforehand (makes it simple to cross your name off when they give you a ballot), but you can vote on the spot by providing proof of citizenship and address.
Elections are run by a non-partisan "Elections Canada" for federal elections. Not party affliated groups. Federal elections are paid for by taxes, but legislated to be independent from the currently elected government's oversight. Elections Canada is responsible to Parliament only.
Simple ballots. Simple. Easy. Everyone of them counted.
My humble suggestion - a little election reform. Maybe ask your candidates what they would do....
I am an LA County voter.
I am a registered Dem
I saw the bubble and took it to mean, "If you are an Ind, please mark"
I did not mark the "Democrat" bubble (number 6)
Did my vote count?
It's amazing listening to these public election officials speak. It's like they don't realize how self-important they sound.
Monday on NPR, I heard a Riverside County offical complain about how much work it was to count paper ballots, as if 1) there was some other way to count ballots in CA until the invention of the Liebold machines, and 2) THE COUNTING OF THE VOTE ISN'T MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FARKING INCONVENIENCES.
And now Yesterday, the LA County official is fighting to maintain some arbirtrary hoops that a voter must jump through in an unnecessarily complicated ballot... just because they designed it that way. Clearly, this person is forgetting their number one (and only) duty: to accurately and honestly count the votes.
What makes you think they "REALLY" designed it to save bucks?
Just as likely or more probable that the G.O.P.ers designed it to exclude independent voters!
Eve @ 3:
Good question, and what evidence does the author have to back up such a claim? I'd love to see it, and this has nothing to do with the idea that such ballots are just plain stupid. I don't like it either, but please, such a condemnation deserves some demonstration.
If you fill in the wrong bubble
Do you vote for the bubble-boy
And get four more years of boosh?
ROVe
That says it all....
Here in Tucson, Az - after 20 years of voting in the same room, my polling place was moved for the third time in three elections - since 2004. By the way, the ROV is one of those that call the democratic party the 'democrat' party. Last election they also attempted to force me to vote on a provisional ballot. Here in Tucson, they are christian dominionists that are doing this. I mentioned this to a poll worker and she agreed she has had the same thing happen.
We are about one election cycle away from a revolution. It's time that election officials realize that they are creating...
...oh wait, that's right...this is the United States, not Eastern Europe.
Fuggedaboudit. Have anutha beah and watch the friggin teevee.
Joementum @ 10:
The worst? I'd say the worst would be a bunch of uncounted ballots coupled with another fear-driven fund-raiser (see last sentence in the leader).
And guess what....
I"m in Los Angeles and this was ridiculous. When I went to vote the lady did say "make sure and fill in bubble 5 to say you are DTS or your vote won't count." Fortunately, I paid attention to the ballot. It was bubble 6 I had to fill in, not 5. Had I done what she said, my vote wouldn't have counted. I even caught the guy next to me getting ready to fill in the wrong bubble. This morning my wife and I are musing about the stupidity of the group of idiots that came up with this ballot design. And not picking on old people (am an old person myself) but so many of my age group are poll workers and I swear these people are so technologically challenged that they still call cars "horseless carriages". I wonder how many people, in my precinct, filled in bubble 5. I'm sure more than a few.
Scy @ 26:
Do I understand that in CA there are republicans, democrats and DTS?
This is a primary for the parties. In Az, if you arent a member of a party you cant vote. This isnt about the general election in november.
While I think parties are the downfall of the country and would like to get rid of them - it surprises me that a party affiliation isnt required to vote in a party election.
Get rid of the bubble, register one way or the other - stop triangulating.
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw283.html
I would like to volunteer to re-design the repulic ballots, in all states. This would include all ballots used in primaries and general elections. I think I could teach them a thing or two about 'convoluted'....
anon @ 27:
Yes, about 10 years ago, a law was passed that allowed DTS registered voters to participate in primaries. Why it's only applying to the Dem primary this time, I dunno.
I do know that whenever I register DTS, I find myself registered Democratic whenever I show up to vote. It's despicable. Yesterday was the first time I voted for a major party candidate since 1988. (I don't feel too bad about it because it was Mike Gravel.)
Here's what I don't get - you're already on the rolls as a decline-to-state voter, and should receive an appropriate ballot - just as Democrats receive a ballot with their candidates listed, and Republicans receive a ballot with theirs.
That's the first failure.
The second is that, having created a ballot with the need to mark an additional bubble to affirm your status, that poll workers apparently were not properly trained and failed to instruct voters to complete their ballot, nor was there any verification before voters dropped their ballots into the magic counting box (even just a sign that says, 'If you are a DTS voter, be sure you have marked x before depositing your ballot!').
It's simply a bad design that should never have passed review.
Boz @ 17:
Assuming when depositing your ballot in the ballot box you stuck it in a card reader that is supposed to verify it was properly cast - what happened then?
Eve @ 3:
By combining the DTS and Dem ballots, they don't have to design two.
Apparently, they didn't consider the chance that they would have to perform a recount on their own nickel. Now it's gonna cost them more in just PR labor, even if they don't do a frickin thing to fix it.
I was one of the registered independent who asked for and got a democratic ballot in Los Angeles. There was a little confusion when they realized that I was an Independent. They gave me a special ballot. There was no page (We vote by inking in spots on "pages") regarding that I have to ink in a spot saying I want to vote Democratic. After reading what happened, my guess is that my vote for Obama was not counted. And I'm really pissed off.
Eve @ 2:
You know, I don't normally endorse violence. But we're getting very close to having no other choice. Our executive branch is corrupt and doesn't care. Congress is a bunch of ineffectual cowards and lying cheating stealing criminals. Our Judicial branch is busy on it's knees sucking cock for the Bush administration and every local jurisdiction is just as fucked up. There is no one that has the interests of the American people at heart. Everybody's either out for themselves or out for some special interest group. Where's the fucking special interest group that represents the rest of us?
I'm curious as to what is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
So here's a question -- how do they know whether any particular ballot was cast by a Dem voter or a DTS voter? Does the ballot carry any information about your affiliation?
I was handed a ballot labeled "Democratic." Is there anotherone, identical except it's labeled "Declined to State?" If so, then LA County had to design two anyway. If not, then when they go to scan the ballot, how do they know the voter's registered affiliation?
Too farking messy. Way too farking messy.
I am not sure why if people don't want to belong a political party they think they should be able to vote for who those political partys run for president?? There were a few ballot mesures that they could have voted for in California. Why not let them vote for both a Republican and a Democrat? Makes about as much sense to me.
I worked a polling station in LA County and here is what was happening ...
N/P (non partisan) registered voters would be given a 'Non Partisan' marked ballot. It is not a 'Democratic' ballot. All the ballots have a big colored label on the top which all the voters can see when they get their ballot. I have never seen an DTS - i find most people are confusing DTS with N/P. N/P is where all the confusion lies.
If you have a 'Non Partisan' or 'Democratic' labeled ballot you can vote in the booth marked DEM.
It is the 'Non Partisan' marked ballots that require bubble 6 to be filled out - not the 'Democratic' ballot. No one can just request a 'Democratic' ballot - only registered democrats. Non Partisans can request to 'vote democratic' with an N/P ballot and go to the booth. That's a slight (but important) difference in saying they were given actual Democratic ballots. Because if they were actually given an actual 'Democratic ballot' it wouldn't matter if they checked 'Bubble 6' or not - because the Recorders office wouldn't be able to tell who was a N/P that was given a DEM ballot - there's no way to pull those out from the rest of the ballots - they would just be considered regular DEM ballots. It's the N/P ballots (yellow colored label, i think) that need to have been marked 'Bubble 6', not DEM ballots used by N/P (because they wasn't happening).
From what I was told there is some kind of law that required N/P to clearly state they were voting in the DEM primary - thus the creation of 'Bubble 6'. We explained this to everyone at our station. I think it's a pretty flimsy argument though - seems like more of a loop hole because it is obvious the voter intends to vote in the DEM primary bc they ARE. I don't really see any purpose in 'Bubble 6' except hella confusion - but I'm sure there is some kind of weird law somewhere.
Another problem no one talks about were people in the A/I Party (American Independent) not realizing the joined a party, when they intended to register as an Independent (called N/P in CA) - they were furious.
Because the only people who can vote in a DEM election is N/P or DEM. All the A/I voters who showed up refused to vote A/I and I let them vote provisionally so they could challenge their registration with LA County themselves. I think the A/I party is a scam and by using the name 'American Independent' they sucker in voters who think they are registering as an Independent. I think I had about 5 of these people - they were hopping mad - they all wanted to vote in the DEM primary.
One of these days, something little like this is going to cause the US public to snap, and go postal on their government. Like an abused wife who puts up with it day in and day out, until one day she pulls out a kitchen knife and stabs the bastard 26 times because he criticized her jello.
Why is it so hard to come up with a simple ballot and simple way of voting? How many decades have we been doing this and why do we tend have a more inefficient election system than a third world country?
This should not be difficult.
Who's in charge?
I see only one justification for the seeming redundancy and that is to copunt how many DTS or Independent coters are siding with Democrats. That would serve the campaign strategists, but the ruling that that the failure to fill in the DTS bubble negates the vote is guarantees a loss of votes as well as a loss of data. It also doesn't serve the principal of voting. VERY VERY STUPID!
There are still many issues about how the elections are run that have been significantly ignored. Though the Democratic gains in governships will have restored some balance to the state coting authorities and some have been able to get rid of the rigged e-voting systems, many still remain. I doubt the GOP will be able to steal the election this time around, but they can still steal votes and thus distort the political picture to the Dems ( and the nation's) disadvantage.
On a realted note: I happen to still be registered in NY, not NJ where I live. I was intially refused my right to vote by the volunteers manning the poll. I was told a flat no. I had to argue for two minutes until they understood that I was allowed a provisional ballot.
The zippered sack of provisional ballots was sealed with a zip-tie and the volonunteers I was dealing with didn't have a knife or scissors to cut the sip-tie. Scissors were acquired and I got my provisional ballot.
Once I completed filling it out I was told to seal my ballot in the form/envelope.
I pointed out that an official had to sign my ballot.
That done I was told "now seal the ballot in the envelope".
I pointed out that they had to sign the form as well.
Finally, the means to seal the envolope was not very obvious. I was directed to like the outsde edge assuming it would fold over and make the seal. After doing so with no effect other than to wrinke the edge of the form with with my saliva, I determined the glue strip was at the inside edge (or 'gutter') . I pointed this out to the vlounteer officials before doing the deed.
Evidently no one was trained on provisional ballots at all ( mine was the first, around 4 pm). It seems to me these volunteers took their jobs seriously regarding the procvedures they's been trained on--but porviding provisional ballots was something that I had to remind them of and had to point out to them the need for their signatures and how to seal them. Having paid attention this last 7 years this lack of training was endemic and apparently still is.
KCThinker @ 40:
Democracy isnt important in the US. Compare voting to almost anything. More people purchase crap they dont need than vote - and in doing so they pay to the exact penny and it is tallied accurately all the way to the IRS as income. More people have licenses and drive than vote.
Why arent people more upset about all this - I argue they arent - democracy just isnt that important in the US.
At the college I attended, students always ran a candidate for student body president called Dr. No. Dr. No was a nilhist ararchist. His campaign slogan was 'no vote is a vote for no'. He won every election. That is the story of democracy in the US.
I'll tell you what would cause an insurection. If you required by force of law the citizens to actually vote - then they would revolt.
In a few years the masses will finally re-discover that voting by paper again is not so great after all. The security fears about voting on DREs has been more overhyped by the MSM than the OJ Simpson trial. The only way to get every vote to count is to use a voting system with end-to-end verifiability -- and the only way to do that is with cryptography. Most of these systems use a computer at some point -- get over it.
Sounds like they are suffering like we do in Florida with our closed primaries. It sucks! We recently had a sheriff run off and both contenders were republican, so only republicans got to choose 'our' sheriff....which is a gross injustice to the many democrats, indepentends and what every other choice people are.
It's time to get rid of parties and have people run as 'people' and have people vote as 'people'...one for one, no delagates, not caucauses, etc... Simple voting period!
voter @ 43:
Such bullshit.
That would be true IF you signed your ballot - which you dont. The ballot is annonymous. Cryptography has absolutely no role here. (I say this as an old guy that started programming in 1966 and still do). The truth is, the MOST secure method is absolute openness. The more visible the data and process, the less likely problems will be.
Paper, end to end, does that.
You get over it.
I live in a state where you don't declare your party affiliation. As an American, I demand the right to vote for any candidate. That is American. I guess karl thinks my state is insignificant.
To answer the question, yes, in CA there are Dems, Repugs, and DTS. DTS can only vote in the Dem primary and not the Repug one as the Repug primary is closed. I am DTS.
Yesterday my wife, a DTS voter in Lakewood, CA (LA County), who thought she could not vote in the primary, discovered that she could vote for Democratic candidate, so off to the polls she wandered. When she got there, she was told, insistently, that she must vote for a Republican. She countered with an article that I had emailed her stating the rules of this primary in CA, and after a long and winding search through the procedures manual, she was told that she was correct and was allowed to vote. No Democratic precinct worker uttered a peep in her defense. She could not recall if she bubbled in the notation you refer to in your article.
I wonder how many times this happened yesterday...
This electioneering crap has to stop if democratic values are to survive in any recognizable form.
To Lynn at 38. You are exactly right about how it was designed. In the other counties, voters were simply handed a regular Democratic ballot. Los Angeles decided they would create a separate Non-Partisan ballot, for reasons I am still unclear about.
I voted in L.A. as Non Partisan. I too didn't know about the extra bubble, nor was I told about it for that matter. That means my vote wasn't counted.
Wow, it's a really weird feeling knowing that I was gamed out of the system.
Lynn @ 38:
Someone posting objective facts rather than paranoid virulence? Unheard of!
Un-real! @ 44:
Great idea. That is the way our system was designed. People choose local representation - up to state level (senators were appointed by the people you elected to serve in the state legislature) - and you directly chose the congressman who would represent you. (Elections to choose senators came later after the constitution was ammended - I prefer the ammended method). The result is all the elected officials represent your region and its needs/interests NOT some political party. Was historically was a personality difference between people (conservative and liberal) who shared a common interest in their region has been mutated into a political difference that benefits some political superstructure of power and not the people of a region.
Political parties need to go. Parties have broken our nation (and now control it like a politburo).
I worked the polling station yesterday in L.A. County and this was not that difficult, as I was handing out the ballots and if someone was registerd as non-partisan I would simply instruct them to begin by selecting the party they are voting for at the top of the first page.
Also since it was right at the top of the first page (just above the primary contestents) you could hardly miss it and if you did that would mean you simply did not read your ballet before you started making your selections...and that would mean you learned nothing from the problems of Florida in 2000 with the butterfly ballots.
I don't care if you think it's easy voting or difficult voting you sould ALWAYS read your ballot before you begin voting.
But for all those who's blood boild becuase of this I have to ask: did you read your ballot before you began voting? or did you just start punching holes hoping for the best?
We know there's been a lot of bullshit regarding our voting system, so to not read your ballot careful is just plan lazy, and you have no right to complain...you only have yourself to blame (oh, and the corporations that are screwing up our country...you can blame them a little too, but you can't blame them because you didn't read your ballot carefuly)
I just popped in at the ghastly Little Green Footballs to see what was doing there ( very busy) and thought I'd share some comments that caught my eye (I went there so the rest of you won;t have to ).
( I;ve formatted them " comment" and ---response and my reaction [WTF?])
"If McCain emerges as the Republican (c'mon...gimme a break) option, I'm considering doing something I've never done before. And that's not voting at all."
----Still hoping to see Fred or Rudy on the ticket
---How does McCain feel about Thompson? Do they like/dislike each other. Is Thompson for VP a possibility?
[FRED? ROFL!]
"America survived Clinton I, it will survive Clinton/Obama/McCain. Conservatives are screwed no matter who wins. All three will support the winding down Iraq war (Clinton/Obama because it is a cheap way to get support for their social programs)
Conservatives best hope is to divert campaign contributions from the hopeless presidential race to the coffers of good Reps and Senators. A stronger conservative wing of the minority party along with staunching the bloodbath the republicans are facing this fall."
---It is critical that we control Congress now...but that too seems unlikely at this point. It's going to take a world changing event to stop this runaway socialist train. The nation seems to WANT to move to the left....even the Republicans. And this is very scary. And I don't understand how this happened
[Yeah, all those jobs and a booming economy and whatnot were a nightmare! And damn those fiscally irresponsible Dems for planning to shift funds from the Iraq war to social progams--the cheap bastards! And why DOES the country wnat to move to the left? Thie economy is bigger, the Iraq war is bigger, the deficit is bigger, the housing bust has gotten bigger, everythings bigger! This country is in FANTASTIC shape! WHat on earth is wrong with the majority in this country? ]
Still, note the degree of realism, despite the bafflement.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 53:
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 53:
In Arizona the democratic ballot had 30 names (I didnt count - it was alot) with instructions to vote for one. Nothing else. One mark.
Arizona isnt better - its dumber. Which is why they found a simple solution.
Simple is better.
Lynn @ 38: people in the A/I Party (American Independent) not realizing the joined a party, when they intended to register as an Independent (called N/P in CA) - they were furious.
your absolutly right about the American Idependent voters, they register in the IndepentEnt party without knowing that Indepentent is a party and not open, also if someone was N/P they could not vote for a Republican candidate, only the Democrat or American Indepentent cadidates.
Please please, before you register to any party, please make sure that your registration means what you think it means, you can get information right on the internet. But please don't register blindly and then blame to voting system for your mistake and disinterest in your own vote.
kaT @ 15:
Actually, reporting on this issue began Tuesday morning... before any Super Tuesday voting had been counted.
So get the hell off your high horse and realize that the election process in this country is FUBAR'ed to hell and gone.
Eve @ 12:
The democrats were aware. And they sent a very "stern" letter to the criminals who perpetrated this B.S. They are still waiting for a response to their letter.
so this means my vote for OB did not count!the 'directions' above seem to indicate that the bubble was only necessary to fill in if you were NOT a registered Democrat. I am calling the registrar of voters in LA County today, this is outrageous.
anon @ 52:
Political parties need to go. Parties have broken our nation (and now control it like a politburo).
I couldn't agree more, we really need to eliminate all the parties and have everyone be an indepentent, their record will show if they are Right or Left of center or whatever, but we can then eleminate these nonsense Primaries, the nonsense Iowa and New Hampshire early states and maybe, just maybe we could become truely united.
But the lawyers who run the show would never allow that becuase they would be the first to go. American citizens need to take charge of our own system, and not wait for someone else to come along and fix it.
I too am DTS in LA County.
What I don't get is that I asked for a Democratic ballot, and voted for my candidate and some propositions, and I knew nothing of the 'bubble' for DTS voters.
If I got the same ballot as all Democrats and they didn't mark the 'bubble', did their vote for President count? If yes, why? How would they know who the voter was, unless there are 2 types of Democratic ballots. If that's the case, which one did I get?
E in MD @ 35....
I think the straw that will finally, at long last, break the camels back will be if Dumbya declares martial law right before the elections. If that does happen....and I hope like hell it doesn't...but if it does...alot of folks are gonna end up on the wrong end of a gun...mostly civilians angry with this corrupt govt. American Revolution Part Deux...
omg @ 60
If you are registered as a Democrat then you don't have to punch that first bubble, you could simply vote for the party you wish. Same thing if for some reason they gave you a Democratic ballot instead of a N/P ballot then you didn't need to punch that first bubble.
And if you are N/P then you should have simply followed the Plain Enlish directions at the top of the page. - Not trying to be snarky but it's not anyone else's fault that people don't read.
ronhohn @ 62
was your ballot yellow at the top? also your receipt they give you will tell you what ballot you got. if it was a Democrat ballot then your vote will be counted as a standard ballot, if it was a N/P ballot (yellow in color) then you did need to punch that top bubble.
Quest to you is how did you miss that first question? and if you read it and didn't mark it, then why not? and if you were confused by it, why didn't you ask for help?
My stub is pink and reads:
DEMOCRATIC
Official Ballot
County of Los Angeles
February 5, 2008
This ballot stub .....retained by the voter
#000080 or #080000 depending which way you hold the stub.
We need a lot less social darwinism here with regards to voting. In otherwords ... its easy and if you didnt follow direction ...
I dont care if people cant read - or are blind - or are confused - they should be accomidated. Lets put an end to poll taxes, tests etc.
I gave an example from Az earlier. One mark for a candidate from a list of probably 30. I PROMISE you that some people voted for more than one. In my opinion, in that case, the ballot box (which is electronic and counts the ballot) should immediately eject that ballot as invalid and force a new ballot to be marked. Is that a pain in the ass and a lot of work just for a person that cant mark just one - yes.
So what ... do it. Its that important.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 64:
in fact I had an absentee ballot that I filled out and delivered yesterday. Yes I read all the instructions carefully and English is my native language. I am relieved to know that it was not necessary to fill in the extra bubble on the top- it was obviously a Democrat ballot, the ballot only had democratic candidates on it.
But the fact that there is still so much confusion with ballots is not because voters do not read the instructions, it is because they do! We need simpler procedures.
FYI In France, where I also vote it is incredibly simple:
You sign in and your name is checked on a list. You take an envelope and then select slips of pre-printed paper with the different candidates' names on it. You take how many you want and there is even a blank one.
Then you go into a booth and put one slip of paper in the envelope and close it. (After the blue envelope is opened, your ballot is counted, the envelope is re-used).
Then you give the envelope to an election worker who puts it in a large transparent locked box, your election card is stamped and you initial the register.
The presidential primary and election process is not complicated with additional measures and laws up for vote at the same time. IMO that is the way to go, simple, efficient and fair. And btw there is elegance in simplicity.
What is screwy is are the instructions in the pamphlet:
Upon receiving your ballot, you must first mark your party selection on the ballot before voting for partisan candidates (see below)
This box for nonpartisan voters only [Vote for one]
American Independent 5->
Democratic 6->
NOTE: If you do not wish to request a ballot for the American Independent or Democratic Party. no further action is reqired. You will be provided with a ballot containing only nonpartisan contests and ballot measures
If I say nothing I get a ballot without candidates, if I ask for a Democratic ballot I get one with candidates on it.
WHAT FOR THE BUBBLE?
This happened to me. No one told me, so I just voted for my candidate. Then, after I heard, I went back to my polling station (in Hancock Park) explaining I didn't also mark "Democrat" on my ballot.
The poll workers assured me it did not matter, that my vote would count.
But now I'm not so sure. Is there any clear statement from election officials that this vote will count?
I'm livid if not. My INTENT is clear.
The only consolation I get out of this is:
There may be as many for Hillary as there are for Obama, so it may balance out without affecting to overall result.
In the General I'll vote for either vs. any repug.
But I hope there will be no screwy ballots
ronhohn @ 66
Well, at least your ballot was Democrat so you don't have to worry.
But I will say that unless your really unable to be there in person (and most people could, you wouldn't believe how many people dropped of their own absentee ballots) I say people should go in and vote in person. this nonsense about not having time to vote is (for most people) just an excuse, they could if they tried, they just don't care enough to try and do it right. we have a pretty busy district and had about a 40% turn out (unheard of for a primary) and nobody waiting more then 20 minutes and that was only during a heavy rush (lunch time or right after work) but most people walked in, got a ballot, voted and left, with no wating at all.
So as far as I can see the problem you were having (or not having as the case may be) is simply because you didn't take the time to really go out and vote.
and I'm sure you have a good excuse for why.
It seems they have had these strange ballots since 2002. Fortunately where I voted they were telling people they had to fill in the top bubble as well. This seems in the spirit of the butterfly ballots in Florida.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMbTUdg2Qg
DTS is called "Unenrolled" in Mass.
I am "unenrolled" and the election judges ASK you if you are voting Democratic or Republican and then hand you a Democratic or Republican ballot.
As a DTS voter, if I had not seen the internet warning about this, I might have missed it. Therefore, I conclude many others probably did. It was not mentioned/made clear at the polling place.
Here is a link to the contact info for the California Secretary of State Debra Bowen:
http://www.sos.ca.gov/contacts.htm
Time to start complaining!
Los Angeles is ran by a mayor who supports Hillary. Decline-to-state voters overwhelmingly support Obama. Coincedence?
If a non-partisan voter marked a spot next to a Democratic candidate, isn't that enough to indicate that they intended to vote for that candidate? Why is the extra check even necessary?
I'm a DTS voter in Los Angeles, so is my girlfriend and many friends of mine. Out of maybe 10 of us, only 1 had any issue at the polls yesterday and that was fixed quickly.
It is not up to the polling stations to tell you how to vote, as that is seen as election engineering. Please don't make this situation into yet another LW conspiracy about Diebold. If there was actual voter disenfranchisement that's one thing, but far too many people have their tinfoil hat ready when their candidate loses an election.
why should non-Democrats be selecting the Democratic candidate for President?
Want to vote in a primary? Register with a party--after all, you're selecting that party's nominee.
LanceThruster @ 76:
It is actually illegal for them to make anything clear. Election engineering is what they call it, and they are obligated to refrain from this for VERY good reasons.
Too many people don't know anything about election laws, but are ready to cry conspiracy at the drop of a hat.
If you are a registered N/P and the poll worker gave you a 'DEMOCRATIC' ballot instead of a
'NON PARTISAN' marked ballot, that was a mistake. They should have given you an N/P.
I heard some poll workers were confused by N/Ps asking to vote DEM and they would give an N/P an DEM ballot. But if that happened to you I think you are actually better off - your vote will be considered as a regular DEM ballot - there is no way for the county to match the ballot with the voter (no serial numbers or anything like that - only the voter will know bc he got the stub)
What will happen is the county will find (for example) - 100 N/P voter signatures in the voter roster - but only 75 N/P ballots in the box. That means 25 N/Ps were accidentally given DEM ballots. But there is nothing they could do about it because which 25 DEM ballots would you know to pull out of a box of 500? You can't distinguish N/Ps who accidentally voted on a DEM ballot from actual DEM voters. They have to count these.
I am guessing LA County will have some DEM ballot over votes balanced off by N/P ballot undervotes. - meaning N/Ps accidentally given a DEM ballot. I don't see where this is any real significant problem bc at the end of the day N/Ps can vote in DEM - but if you don't understand the process people run around saying fraud fraud fraud.
It would seem only be a real problem if pollworkers were giving DEM ballots to other party members . Say DEM ballot overvotes and REP ballot undervotes as compared to what the voter roster sign in - that would be a big screw up - because some people may have misunderstood the definition of the CA DEM 'open primary' - it doesn't mean any party can vote - just N/P. Needless to say I would think the information was probably inconsistent depending on what pollworker you talked to as the county didn't provide any signs to explain this - considering the have a dozen signs in 9 languages it looks poorly they couldn't see this coming.
The easiest solution does seem to just give a DEM ballot to N/Ps who declare they want to vote that way and just note in the roster when they sing in (we had to mark them DEM anyway)- i am sure there is some other reason they do it this way (probably to match the voter sign in roster to the actual ballots and make sure the totals match) I just can't see the end benefit of it all over the confusion.
Volum @ 82:
It doesn't have to be a conspiracy to stink. It's pretty clear that the extra bubble on the top of the ballot is completely superfluous. It could only serve to confuse a voter, it has no purpose.
I've stated this at Brad Friedman's site, but I'm going to state it here, too, in hopes that someone in authority will step in and stop the stupidity from overriding common sense. I'm a precinct officer in Sonoma County, CA, which has a very well-run elections system. Thank-you Sonoma County Registrar of Voters!!!
When a voter walks into your precinct and informs you they are a non-partisan voter, you recite the following to them: "As a non-partisan voter, you must choose one ballot from the following three choices to cast your votes on. Your choices are a Democratic party ballot, an American Independent party ballot , or non-partisan ballot. Do you understand what these choices mean?"
If they answer "yes," you ask, "Which ballot do you want?"
If they answer "no," you respond: "If you choose to vote on a Democratic party ballot, then you will get to vote for one of the Democratic party's presidential candidates. If you choose to vote on an American Independent party ballot, then you will get to vote for one of the American Independent party's presidential candidates. If you choose to vote on a non-partisan ballot, then you will not get to vote for any presidential candidates. Which ballot do you want?"
If they have more questions, then you hand them one of the voter guides which every precinct has on hand, and that contains information about each party and their candidates.
It's just not that difficult, folks. Why on earth did LA county go to the trouble of having a separate ballot for this classification of primary voter?! All that did was to create unnecessary confusion, and to provide greater potential for voter disenfranchisement. Our Secretary of State Debra Bowen needs to step in now and tell LA County that it must count those voters' votes, that just because LA's Registrar of Voters screwed things up so badly for this election is no reason for their non-partisan voters to now be disenfranchised.
I say, "Let's disenfranchise LA's Registrar of Voters! They are clearly unqualified and too incompetent to be overseeing their county's elections process."
Hooray to Sonoma County's Registrar of Voters for doing such a terrific job yesterday, and for going to all the necessary lengths to make sure every voter's vote counted!!!
#72
"So as far as I can see the problem you were having (or not having as the case may be) is simply because you didn’t take the time to really go out and vote.
and I’m sure you have a good excuse for why."
Where did you get the idea that I didn't go to vote in person? Go back and read my #62
Lynn, you are mistaken about the options available to non-partisan voters in CA. Please read my post at #85.
Lynn @ 83:
a repug plot???
hardly
la county is controlled by dems
mayor villaragosa is a hillary supporter
this was a plot to disenfranchise young voters....
the clintonistas are bush lite
#81
Because the Democratic party and the American Independents allow it. The Republic party doesn't.
Julia Rosen, in glancing over the comments in this thread, I am seeing that there is an awful lot of misinformation about the voting process on Tuesday for non-partisan voters in CA being posted here. I hope that you and the rest of the gang at C&L will clear this up once and for all.
It's one thing for there to be disagreement as to whether or not voter disenfranchisement took place in LA County, disagreement based on various interpretations of the facts. But it's another thing altogether for there to be disagreement based on misinformation and ignorance as to what the options were that were available to non-partisan voters in CA yesterday.
Thank-you. I hope you follow up on this.
Linda @ 87:
#83
You seem to have missed the gist of the matter. In California, DTS voters may vote Nonpartisan, Democratic or Independent as they wish. There is no 'by mistake' involved if a voter, like me requested a Democratic ballot.
My question is that if I asked for, and received a Democratic ballot which had all of the candidates on it, yes, Edwards, Dodd, Biden, etc. were all on the ballot, why would I need to check a
'bubble' if the regular DTS ballot did not have the candidates. That's redundant.
Maybe Sonoma is different -
Not in LA County - ALL N/P voters are ALL given N/P marked ballots - if they declare they want to vote in the A/I or DEM primary we note it on the roster (mark out N/P and put DEM or A/I) and direct them into the A/I or DEM booths, thats when I explained to them about Bubble 6. They do not get the actual party ballots - thus the creation of ‘Bubble 6′.
Maybe your county is different, but it is instructed at the top right hand corner of every voter roster page (ALL Non Partisan voters only get N/P marked ballots). They do not get a choice of actual physical ballots, only a choice of booths (A/I or DEM) - this is the whole reason there is a Bubble 6. Not that I agree with any of this process - i think it blows.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 53:
...What, read your ballot before voting...c'mon...that's asking why too much when it's much eaiser to complain and cite some grand ole' conspiracy !
Please, save us from our own stupid laziness !
You're exactly right. I was one of these DTS voters, and filled out my ballot correctly, but might not have had I not been tipped off by C&L.
It seems to me that a state election/primary should have uniform voting procedures in the interest of election integrity. Allowing individual county's the power to change ballot rules is FUBAR and asking for trouble.
I am a registered Independent. When I registered as an Independent, I was fully aware that I would not be invited to participate in either parties' primary - which is as it should be!
If you want to vote for a Democrat, REGISTER as a freakin' Demosrat! WTF is so hard to figure out?
If you are an Independent, you don't DESERVE to choose one or the other parties' delegates. WTF SHOULD you? It's NOT your party!
Filled out the ballot correctly, my ass! Why were you even THERE???
In LA County if you are a registered N/P you still vote on a N/P ballot - if a pollworker gave you a DEM or A/I marked ballot it was mistake by them - not you. Your vote should still count it just won't match the signed in voter rolls and might give the impression of fraud. (i.e. there are 100 N/P voters signed in but there are only 50 N/P ballots? - or there are 250 DEM signed in but 300 DEM Ballots? - that's how they double check the voter rolls against the physical ballots)
The physical ballot is a representative of how you are registered in the voter rolls and how you signed in - it is not a reflection of how you are voting. That can change depending on what booth you choose (A/I or DEM). That's why there is a Bubble6 - all N/Ps were supposed to get N/P ballots and if voting in the DEM primary they had to mark Bubble 6. You can't choose your physical ballot.
If you ever look at a voter sign in roster - on the top of every right hand corner it says that ALL N/P voters ONLY get N/P marked ballots. They choose their primary in the booth. Again I think this blows..
I blame Bush!
I was a poll worker in LA County yesterday and we were told to explicitly tell people that they had to mark box number six if they were Independent voting Democrat. I'm sure a lot of people did not.
Lynn, Sonoma County does not have different elections regulations re non-partisan voter options in our state's primary election. ALL CA non-partisan voters were eligible to choose which of the three ballots they wanted to cast their votes on: Democratic, American Independent, or non-partisan. This is because the CA State Democratic Party, and the CA State American Independent Party opened their ballots up to non-partisan voters. None of the other parties did so.
This decision was NOT up to LA County. It was up to each state party organization.
If you believe you were prevented by your Registrar of Voters from exercising your right to vote according to the laws and regulations that govern THEM, then as a citizen you have a duty to press ahead with a formal process to address your alleged disenfranchisement. I would certainly do so if I believed this had happened to me.
Lynn @ 93:
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 53:
Thank you! I'm a non-partisan voter in LA county. When I went to vote yesterday, I told the poll workers "none" when they asked what party, so they gave me a non-partisan ballot and pointed me toward the Democratic booth. When you open the ballot, the first thing you read, at the very top of the page, is something to the effect of: "to nonpartisan voters: check the party for which you'll be voting."
Filled in the "Democrat" circle, and voted for Obama.
Really, people.. if you read the instructions, it's really not that difficult.
Registering as a non-partisan voter means that you are electing to not choose to register under any political party. This is a legitimate option that many Americans choose to follow for many good reasons.
Registering as a member of the American Independent political party is a whole other option. It is a specific party. It does not make you an "independent" voter.
Medford Tim @ 97:
Linda Says:
"Registering as a non-partisan voter means that you are electing to not choose to register under any political party"
Exactly! So what gives the person who has chosen this option the nerve to vote in either PARTIES' primary? 'Wedding crasher priveleges?'
Independent = non-affiliated
Of course, I also think it is wrong for the states which allow cross party primary voting to do so. It ain't kosher.
Thanks for commenting.
What a bunch of lazy morons...Can YOU READ ????
Because many of us do NOT want to be taken for granted - which is why I will not register for a party after being a registered Democrat for many years . . . 8 years of Clinton taught me that
It may be time for international monitors of U.S. elections. Governments in some 3rd and and even 4th world countries seem to have figured out how to hold elections better than we have!
I know at least 10 people whose vote for Obama did not count yesterday, mine included. I know several others who were dropped off the registration list, and were then given provisional ballots for no apparent reason.
This is systematic. Systematic problems are not due to mistakes.
Not in LA County - All N/Ps can only get N/P ballots - seriously, it is written on EVERY PAGE of the roster and that is what they also told me in training.
In the simplest of terms how else would they know how to distribute the physical ballots to the precincts if N/Ps can choose which physical ballot? All the precincts got physical ballots in proportion to the voter roster - not how the county was guessing N/Ps were going to vote. Thus, I received enough DEM ballots to cover every DEM voter in my roster, and enough N/P ballots to cover every N/P in my roster with a few extras for mistakes. If N/Ps are allowed to pick up a DEM or A/I ballot the county would have had to distribute additional DEM and A/I ballots to cover all N/Ps who might voter that way - I would have had to have enough DEM and A/I Ballots to cover all the N/P voters). That doesn't happen. When precincts were running low on DEM ballots it's possible they were giving N/Ps the wrong ballots.
Again I don't think this matters if an N/P got a DEM marked ballot before they went to the booth - I only think it will give rise to fraud charges because the voter rolls won't match the physical ballots.
This explains why there is a Bubble 6.
Why else do you think there is a Bubble 6? If an N/P can pick up a DEM physical ballot then why a Bubble 6? Of course this may be a whole screw up that only LA County has - I haven't heard of other counties complaining of problems like us.... i guess were are just special in a very bad way.
We're not talking about nerve here. Nerve has nothing to do with following elections laws and regulations. Political party organizations get to decide who votes in their primaries. If LA County did not permit its non-partisan voters to vote on a Democratic ballot, then our elections laws were broken. It's as simple as that.
Medford Tim @ 104:
Isn't the real issue how many such "non-counted" ballots are there? I don't care for the fact that anyone's vote gets invalidated for such a stupid, redundant reason, but I'd be absolutely wrathful if the outcome of the election were changed because of it.
Wow I can't believe this happened in L.A. county, former home of the Diebold/Premier advocate and ROV Connie McCormack. Oh and ya'll down there in San Diego county need to keep an I on your ROV Debra Seiler. She is a "former" rep for Diebold/Premier. Looks to me like we should all be investigation our local ROVs. Hopefully before the next election. Also there's a group of ROVs suing our patron saint of voter integrity in CA Debra Bowen because she has had the balls to decertify those crappy ass none functioning "Premier" voting machines. Maybe a check of a list of those involved would reveal where your local ROV stands.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_d.htm
Linda Says:
"If LA County did not permit its non-partisan voters to vote on a Democratic ballot, then our elections laws were broken."
Yes, yes, no argument - follow what is on the books. That is ONE point.
Mine is another. If a person declares themself to not be affiliated with a political party out of a personal principle, they should live up to that principle by not trying to interfere in the decisions of a party they didn't want to associate with. That means not voting in their primary.
Oh yeah the present ROV of Los Angelos county is Dean Logan
12400 Imperial Hwy.
Norwalk, CA 90650
P O Box 1024
Norwalk, CA 90651-1024
1-800-815-2666 (LA County Only)
(562) 466-1310 FAX (562) 929-4790
E-mail: voterinfo@rrcc.co.la.ca.us
Website: www.lavote.net
Paulahaha, is Dean Logan a former electronic voting machine company employee? Or does he have any other interests other than his livelihood connected to the profitability of the electronic voting machine industry?
I voted around 10 a.m. yesterday morning in Los Angeles, and had heard the flap about this on NPR as i drove to the polling place. I walked in, got my ballot (I too am a DTS voter) immediately blackened in the top "Democrat" bubble, then proceeded to vote for my candidate and my propositions. My vote counted. Later in the day my wife voted, and had heard nothing of this whole crazy issue, missed the bubble at the top, and her vote was discounted. This was a very real issue yesterday. I wondered if it was the DNC/Clinton people's doing? I imagine most independents voted Obama, and what better way to disenfranchise them by finagling some lame, obscure, redundant ballot requirement.?
i'm a registered democrat and my absentee ballot had the stupid bubbles next to democrat and indepedent. i left the frickin thing blank. I filled in the bubble for the candidate i wanted to vote for (obama)
so my frickin vote doesn't count now?
whoever designed that ballot should be waterboarded.
This isn't just an LA county thing. I voted in Orange county and they had me check one of three boxes. One of the boxes he called non partisan. If I had checked that box as I was about to before I asked for more clarification, I could not have voted for a democratic candidate. The worker wasn't offering up information on the ramifications on what checking the box was, and I had no idea there was such a thing as the "american independent" party or the "non partisan" party.
My wife had a similar problem when she registered. She accidentally registered as one of those parties and wasn't even given the option of voting in the democratic primary.
And it's about precedent.
Either we sit back and allow the precedents to continue to pile-up upon us, or we start fighting back and start setting a few voting rights precedents of our own.
CoIntelPro @ 8:
The post you're commenting on is about the CA Dem party 'Courage Campaign' doing something about this CA county issue.
plooger @ 119:
You sit back and get ready to do something -- a lot of us have been working all this time. We have a good SecState, and this issue will be addressed by her soon enough.
You sound like Lee Iacocca, who went to great trouble to ask, three years too late, if he was the only person offended by what is going on.
Voted in LA County yesterday, registered Dem., and as such, was automatically given a "DEMOCRATIC" ballot (so noticed at top of ballot.)
First item is marked 'NON-PARTISAN VOTERS ONLY: Decline-To-State and American Independent - Mark Here' (more about AI later.)
No one explained to me what this was, either at the polls or through my party. But I knew I was registered as a 'Democrat,' so I skipped past it.
I do NOT know how they can tell a DEM like me from a Non-DEM when the ballot gets to the tabulator, unless they can match the ballot up to the voter. I doubt this is the scenario.
"American Independent" is an actual party out here in CAL, and is often selected by folks trying to register as non-committed, seeing the word 'Independent' which is the commonly used vernacular for this kind of voter. They should be checking our 'Decline To State' choice. Can't tell you how many times I've reviewed the form with a new registree after they've filled it out, wrong, and had to ask them to fill out a new form.
NOTE that the state Dem Party knows this happens, and so both Decline To States and American Independents could vote in the Democratic Primary. So the party was trying to enfranchise these folks in the Primary.
I will review my election materials when I get home, to see if this item is mentioned at all.
BUT, to all furreners, note that this is what happens when the Partys, rather than the government, define the rules for elections.
Don't even get me started on delegate apportionment, and how it not only differs from state to stae, but also between the partys
Eve @ 12:
Los Angeles (and San Diego) have had the worst Registrars of Voters in the country over the last ten years. Conny McCormack, the previous LA RoV, was the cover girl of Diebold's advertising.
In Los Angeles, the RoV is chosen by the Supervisors. We have ZERO public input into that process.
Check where you live, it's just as much of a problem, I guarantee.
bookworm @ 16:
You are on your way to where we are, if you don't watch out.
There are electronic tabulators in use in Canada, and some of the larger cities have been experimenting with touchscreens.
Cal Damage @ 122:
Totally incorrect. This is an action by the Registrars of Voters, with just about zero input from the parties.
Linda, Santa Clara county was the same way as Sonoma. It seems that LA county made their own rules, which is apparently illegal.
I don't think the poll workers understood the issue any better than most voters, despite what it says in the sample ballot.
For those outside of CA, if you get a Non-Partisan ballot, all that is on it is the state and local propositions, and any non-partisan offices, like mayor or school board.
OriGuy @ 126:
There is a conspiracy among RoVs in California (and elsewhere). They are currently suing our loyal SecState to prevent her barring of almost all of the electronic machines those RoVs have foisted on the state with the help of Arnold Pantload's previous SecState, who committed a number of criminal acts.
Paul in LA @ 127:
How can it be that an elected official who oversees our ROVs can be sued by these ROVs? Doesn't that override the direct connection between the citizens of CA and our elected SoS? Probably the main reason SoS Bowen was elected despite running against an incumbent is that the voters of CA felt we need her to overcome the election irregularities perpetrated by our various ROVs. Should this be a matter for the State Attorney's office?
It's beginning to appear that the electronic voting machine cartel in CA and the rest of the country is positioning its minions within our local ROVs offices in order to conduct election fraud.
Linda @ 128:
Did, long ago. As for electronic voting machines, banned in CA, except for one touchscreen per polling place, the ballots of which have to be handcounted. And we are currently working down through to their second string in the RoVs -- and they will be forced from office too.
Linda @ 128 "How can it be that an elected official who oversees our ROVs"
The SecState does not oversee the RoVs. She regulates voting--they operate independently. RoVs are local officials chosen in most cases undemocratically.
"Should this be a matter for the State Attorney's office?"
The CA Attorney General is Jerry Brown. If you would like to buy him a box of golf balls (he enjoys seeing how many he can put up his rear and still answer the phone without grunting), send it to Former Governor in Retirement with a Cushy Gov't Job, Sacramento CA.
This just sounds so fishy. I requested an absentee ballot and received it on 2/4, so naturally I had to physically drop it off. When I began filling it out I noticed no Presidental candidates were listed. When I got to the polling place I inquired why I was sent this ballot and that's when I learned of DTS. I have been a registered Democrat forever and for the life of me don't understand why I would be sent a ballot like that. I requested a provisional ballot so I could vote my choice and I questioned the senior ladies who were in charge--they were sweet, but no information was available. They did tell me I wasn't the first to have that problem.
Seriously, do people not read the ballot? I voted in LA as a non-partisan. I was given a non-partisan ballot and directed to a democratic primary machine. The first question made clear that as a n/p I needed to indicate which primary I was voting for. The dreaded bubble 6.
How is that unclear? It's on the same page as the choice for presidential nominee.
Granted, it seems redundant since I'm voting for a candidate with a party affiliation, but it's hardly a huge task to read the freakin' ballot and fill it out appropriately. If you're that careless in voting, perhaps you shouldn't.
critter @ 132:
Studies have shown that over and over. Which is why foolproof ballot design is needed (and has been achieved in the past).
The LA RoV is a Republican engaged in removing Obama voters from the roles. This was one of her tactics, and it was done nationwide by likeminded co-conspirators. They sit around thinking up ways to steal elections and rig our political system for the benefit of their party and their corporations.
I live across the street from MacArthur Park near downtown Los Angeles, I've voted at the Korean Presbyterian Church down the street for years.
I showed up last night ca. 6:00 pm and they couldn't find my name on the rolls. Me: "I should be on the Democratic party list". They checked and sure enough, I was on the indie roll. I said "I've voted Democrat since I've been 18 [I'm 48], how could this happen?".
I finally got them to give me a Democratic ballot and go in the "booth" and sure enough, there was that stupid-ass slot to punch in Democrat. I don't blame the poll workers, what a shitty job that is, but there *must* be an investigation and solution to this nonsense before November.
You Americans couldn't run a chook raffle.
voter @ 43:
ROTFLMAO Great sarcasm voter
first of all, if you don't like the way the polls are run quit bitching and volunteer! really. i'm 45 and i'm a los angeles pollworker -- and no, it's not fun. i would really prefer to never do it again, but now that i see how much they need people who can troubleshoot and stay dedicated to the process i feel obligated to continue. this video is obnoxious, wrong in the information it supplies and really isn't going to get better pollworkers by insulting them.
i started at yesterday at 5:30 am and finished at 11:30 pm after waiting for two hours in a line just to turn in the ballots and supplies. i suffered crazy people and rude people who acted as if i were their servant and hadn't hopped to it quickly enough when they had to wait a few minutes for us to finish with someone else. (and the polling place was in a mormon church where coffee/tea wasn't allowed!)
now, there are some serious flaws in the system, the first of which lies in training volunteers in a rushed two-hour session and providing them with instructions that are just dumb. this was my third election and the rules have changed each time.
for example, the whole non-partisan voter thing is unecessarily complicated. though my team was diligent about instructing non-partisan voters to ink the dot for the open party's primary they were voting in, we made a mistake with 18 voters in our precinct. after rushing to set up the poll in one hour (the mormons wouldn't let us set up the night before) and then finding the ballot reader jammed, when we barely got started at 7am, the ballot clerk mistakenly gave non-partisan voters democratic ballots (they were supposed to get non-partisan ballots and mark them democratic). there were actual job description cards for each clerk but the ballot clerk's did not contain instructions about which ballot to give. those instructions were buried deep in a book about "what to do if..."
another issue is the inconsistent language. why is someone who registers as "decline to state" called "nonpartisan?" this adds to the confusion.
and, finally, there is the whole issue of independents. there is an actual political party called "american independent." many voters consider themselves an "independent" when in fact they are non-partisan by the lingo of the polls. folks found themselves mistakenly registered as "american independent" when they wanted to vote in other parties' primaries and couldn't. one young woman serving in the air force showed up to vote at our poll. she said she had driven four hours to vote democratic and instead found herself a member of a party she knew nothing about and which has little in common with democrats. (one might think we could have let her vote provisionally, however once they verified that she was indeed registered as an "american independent" her ballot would have been nullified)
we did have MANY provisional ballots voted. out of 380 ballots cast at our poll, 79 were provisional which is 1 out of 5! these were voters who were not on our logs - many of whom were carrying official sample ballots directing them to our precinct - and voters who insisted their party affiliation was recorded incorrectly. (i personally suspect some caging might have happened but what in the world am i supposed to do about it in the moment? please answer that before you start mocking me as a volunteer)
ultimately, i think the trainings are awful, the instruction manuals are chaotic and circuitous. throw in a crummy ballot and you've got a recipe for shit soup. i would challenge anyone interested in serving their community by pollworking to do a perfect job with the limited support they are given.
I am a veteran pollworker and have experienced two closed primaries (not this year as I did exit polling). This problem is endemic.
The reason the extra bubble is required is because ALL nonpartisan ballots are the same, as you noted above with the Registrar's flyer. When the voter walks in and announces a party, it is merely recorded on the roster next to the voter's name, by law, and the ballot clerk hands them a NP ballot and is supposed to show them to a Democratic or American Independent booth. Filling the bubble allows the computer to determine which primary they voted in, because the ballot positions for the AI and Democratic candidates are the same (8-10 for AI and 8-15 on the Democratic ballot). Thus, voter intent is going to be tricky for non-bubble fillers, since who's to say that, if they voted for a candidate in ballot positions 8-10, that they didn't want to vote in the American Independent primary? (If they voted for someone in positions 11-15, then intent would be clear. Remember that candidates rotate between each assembly district, but the 8-10 and 8-15 stay the same.)
Yes, the American Independent Party is a really bad name. Here's how you check how confusing it is: look at the number of people that voluntarily choose to participate in the AI primary (by filling in the AI bubble), and look at the number of votes cast in the AI primary. Sometimes, there are more independents choosing to be AI than there are actual votes cast in the AI primary (in other words, people chose AI and didn't actually vote in the primary that they chose). It would be interesting to note the number of undervotes for the AI primary.
There were 85,000 Dem crossover voters in this primary, but in the 2000 blanket primary (where all individuals could vote for a list of all candidates on the nonpartisan ballot), there were 81,500 Democratic votes, and about 61,000 Republican votes. But the electorate has grown significantly since 2000, and the interest in this election is much higher among independents than the 2000 primary, which was essentially decided at this point. From there, you can estimate the actual number of NPs who wanted to cast a vote but were lost. Factoring in turnout, growth, and the fact that the Republican party was closed to NP/DTS, I would say about 40-60,000 votes could have potentially been lost. Not hundreds of thousands, but not zero.
The solution that still complies with state law is to simply hand nonpartisan voters that request a party ballot that party's ballot (instead of the special NP ballot); or, continue the existing process but change the ballot positions (so that Dem candidates are in the first column, Rep candidates are the second column, etc.... did you notice how many blank pages there were in this year's ballot?) so that there is no doubt of voter intent. It is not difficult to have the Republicans turn one or two pages before they start voting and you can have the computer scan for votes across multiple columns and reject those as being incorrect "blanket primary" votes.
Good Idea! This is a good way of eliminating the effects of stupid voters.
That is so insane. Why can't they handle voting? I re-registered ahead of time as a Democrat and was still listed as non-partisan (on one list) and Peace and Freedom (on the other) on voting day, the day that I got a postcard in the mail telling me I was now a Democrat. They had to give me a provisional ballot - and the little note on my voting receipt saying that I could call this number to see if my vote had been counted, but no sooner than a month after the election, didn't inspire my confidence either.
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