FISA Debate Open Thread
Dianne Feinstein is up now. We hear it's a bad bill at this point. Orrin Hatch hates Feingold's amendment. What a shocker.
Green Greenwald breaks it down for you.
Pat Leahy is joining in:
Tuesday, February 12 is a critical day in our fight to stand up for American values and preserve our freedoms while protecting our national security. The Senate is voting on amendments to FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the law governing the use of wiretaps and other means to conduct surveillance of foreign threats.
Unfortunately, the new FISA bill we'll be voting on still has many problems. I will do everything in my power -- including joining my colleague Chris Dodd in a filibuster against this legislation -- to fix it.
Please tell Congress that any new FISA bill must both protect our national security and preserve our civil liberties!
And I received this email just a little while ago:
Reid announced that FISA amendment votes will begin at 10 tomorrow today is the last day of debate on the bad intel committee (SSCI) bill. The cloture vote will be around noon/early afternoon Tuesday and post-cloture votes will go until late afternoon/early evening. Final passage will be early evening. Of course, that could change. But that's what he said.
first
duck
Why does this FISA thing keep coming up? Can't the democrats nail it for once and for all?
It's time to grow a backbone. I have faith Dodd is not going to let the Telcoms get immunity.
Bush: I am above the law.
Telecoms: We are above the law.
Dems: As the doormats we are, we proudly say, "Okay!"
Very sad.
casper46 @ 4:
"Faith" is not is needed. Wish I could concur w/you, however, the telecom industry
WILL receive immunity. "Why" you asked. Well, because the Dems in the U.S. Senate
will allow it to occur and then, tho supposedly opposed to such, the U.S. House
members will do likewise. What again were those Nov 06 Elections all about?
Cong. Rep Survey asks about FISA
CIVIL LIBERTIES
Several telecommunications companies complied with the Administration’s warrantless wiretapping program and made customers’ telephone conversations and email correspondence available to the government for review. Should individuals whose private communications were disclosed be able to sue the telecommunications companies?
http://www.house.gov/stark/survey/
casper46 @ 4:
In other words, you have no frickin idea what the unanimous consent agreement from last week says.
Thanks for the heads up!
Senator Feinstein needs to be investigated for her family's Iraq war profiteering. What is with Democratic voters in California electing this warmonger! Feinstein needs to go and needs to be investigated!
If Hillary gets the MI and FL delegates. Then this will mean that the DNC and the clintons are in collusion to steal the election from the American people. again.
Can a DRMC take down notice be used to suppress electronically recorded conversations?
Feingold up...
Masterfully explaining history of FISA... for all of the Senators who have been bought off and could give a crap.
ROCKEFELLER SAYS:
If dragnets are good for the destruction of our oceans, then by God they''ll be just as good for the destruction of our civil rights!
Viva la freedom
hazmaq @ 13:
And as Mark Twain said: " Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member
of Congress. But I repeat myself. "
Feingold:
"Do we really want to create a law-free zone?"
"So much for the rule of law."
"Sends a terrible message."
We are "encouraging cooperations with requests that violate the law."
"The rule of law is taking it on the chin."
"The rule of law is not less important after 9/11."
"Support the rule of law."
Doggiebobo @ 14:
And further, as Albert Einstein is quoted as saying: " Only two things are infinite; the
Universe and human stupidity;and I'm not sure about the former. "
Fein fuckstein
Al Gore @ 8:
Sorry Al. Is it alright if I call you Al? I think YOU are the one who doesn't have a clue. What the hell do you think Dodd is going to filibuster?
I just don't know what to say. I never thought I would see the day when warrantless spying on Americans, water torture, endless wars of conquest for oil would be ok. Where is the outrage? With the exception of the DFH blogs and a few in the media, you wouldn't even know anything was amiss. These are things I would expect from the old Soviet Union/KGB, East Germany/Stasi, but by the US? What happened to American values? Freedom? Liberty? Our Frickin' BILL OF RIGHTS? While I have some consolation that "my guys" (Leahy/Sanders) are fighting the good fight, where are the others? Perhaps tomorrow (Lincoln's birthday no less!) we can officially put the torch to the Constitution and the Republicans and SPINELESS, BOOTLICKING Democrats can officially annoit Commander Codpiece as Dictator for Life. February 12 2008 - The Day the Republic Fell
I'm sure my Congressman Dutch will give a rats ass. He's running with no opponent.
Actually that's unfair. Dutch has actually been pretty consistent in his opposition to this crap. So I instead retract my statement. Mikulski on the other hand apparently believes that protecting my rights is not worth her time.
Dodd:
"This is about the rule of law."
"We swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States."
"Openness is at stake."
"Were were the first nation that insisted that we were a nation of laws and not men."
"Never let one individual, or a handful of individuals, determine the fate of a nation."
"Retroactive immunity... forbids our fellow citizens from having their day in court."
"Real judges and juries... must be allowed to do their job.... Let's have the courts decide... Open the court house door."
"Debate in the open... allow the court to do its job."
I've never been as disillusioned about how our government works as I have become watching the FISA stuff play out. The entire basis for the telecom immunity provision is a logical fallacy. The argument is basically, "They did nothing wrong, so no lawsuits should be brought against them." If it's that obvious that they did nothing wrong, ANY LAWSUIT WOULD BE THROWN OUT OF COURT. The entire reason to lobby for telecom immunity is because there IS evidence that the law was broken, and the fact that only a handful of Senators seem to really care is incredibly disturbing.
Watching Kit Bond, who is the vice chairman of the intelligence committee talk on C-SPAN is absolutely depressing. Beyond the fact that he constantly raises the spectre of attacks from "teh terrorists" if the bill isn't passed exactly as it is currently written, and beyond the fact that he tries to paint anyone against the bill as not caring about national security, he frankly seems to have no idea what he's even doing most of the time. He doesn't even seem to really understand how the procedure works. When they were voting on Amendments last Thursday, he asked whoever was acting as President at the time, "Uh... has approval for a vote been given, sir?" "No one has asked for a vote yet." "Uh.... (huge pause) I ask for a vote." This is a few weeks removed from when he claimed that waterboarding is only unacceptable if certain types of it are done, likening it to different types of swimming. Friggin' ridiculous.
Kit Bond is, was, and always shall be a douchebag.
FreedomOfInformationAct @ 7:
Good survey. Much more effective than voting.
We keep hearing about U.S. telecoms and immunity. Has yet to be a mention of the Israeli based telecoms Amdocs and Comverse Infosys. Amdocs supposedly has had access to 95% of all U.S. phone companies billing.
Part 1,2,3,4 by Carl Cameron of Fox News
part 2 and 3 address Amdocs and Comverse Infosys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
CSPAN sucks nowdays. They put up wrong descriptions of what is on their schedule on a regular basis. They indicate that CSPAN2 is having Super Tuesday Results when in fact it is showing the FISA debate. This is misleading.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2
I hate that much of the BushCo douchebaggery has stripped people of franchise and outsourced responsibility for their own egregious crimes onto a public kept ignorant of what's being done in their name.
This FISA crap not only accomplishes that but potentially turns business people like myself into victims with no recourse to object to Telcoms' willful shredding of our Terms of Service contracts.
It potentially turns me into a crook, by changing the rules of operation for transmitting and transporting sensitive data, goods and services without notifying me in advance of the changed field.
It makes me an unwitting liar to my clients (who trust the guarantee I give them to keep private their valuable personal data and work in progress that I do for them).
Each day I wonder whether this Dem "controlled" Congress is better or worse than the Republican rubber stampers, who were at least obvious about what they were doing.
Levin hit the nail on the head. The administration isn't giving the immunity to the the Telcoms to protect the Telcoms. It's to give immunity to the administration.
Levin:
"Support the Specter-Whitehouse Amendment."
"To simply grant immunity may encourage others to engage in illegal activity in the future."
"Avoid the terrible precedent of giving retroactive immunity to lawbreakers."
"Retroactive immunity is being sought... to protect the administration."
You cannot and should not needlessly remove a remedy."
How much of the trial of these six will(as the NY Times asks)"be held in secret, closed
proceedings NOT available to the public eye?" What has become of the often touted
term "rule of law" used by bush-lite and his admin.?
Nope.... not gonna do it.... I won't fall for THIS crap again.
I refuse to believe that a single person has changed their position from last week.
More bluster tomorrow, and the SAME result by night time. Bush will get his way, and then have a press conference on Wednesday to belittle the democrats and insist on his appointees being confirmed.
Business as usual.
Now I understand stockholm syndrome.
Doggiebobo @ 31:
Opps...posted to incorrect C&L threat...sorry.
Jdog @ 19:
After a long day at work, making less in real dollars than I did seven years ago, the last thing I want to do is get all worked up about lofty, complicated, theoretical things. I just want to be told that the gov't is protecting me from terrorists (which they obviously are) so that I can move on to how Britney's rehab is going and whether the people on Lost will be found.
I mean, come on. Be real. If the gov't wants to listen to my phone calls, they are free to do so. I'm not a terrorist. I have nothing to hide. Even more, if they happen to overhear how Britney's rehab is going and then leak it to the media, that's even better than nothing. But if they leak the ending to Lost, I'll have them all impeached. My wife's brother-in-law did that to me when I had the last episode of 24 on TiVo and I just about killed the bastard.
Yeah. I want my phone calls listened to because it means the government thinks what I have to say is important. Hey, Mr. Eavesdropper, be sure to listen in next week, when I tell my friends what I really think of Britney's latest attention-getting antics! Good stuff.
rightwing kabuki
telecom immunity
-- just say noh
I'm not sure why they treat this as an immediate threat... It's a general discussion on how to spy on americans. I'm okay with spying.. but with over sight, and a warrant by the Fisa court.
This immunity non sense.. I don't believe in it. I truthfully think some of these business people should be charged by the american people for obviously breaking the law.
I already emailed my two senators regarding this.
My Gawd!!! This muzak during quorum calls drives me batty.
Orin Hatch is such a tool. I live in his district and he always does what his constituents don't want. Idiot mormans keep voting for him though.
Are either Obama or Clinton going to make an appearance in the Senate tomorrow? Because, if not, you can take it to the bank that neither one will do much about constitutional matters from the lofty White House perch.
It doesn't matter what they put on the Congressional Record. It's how they vote. Hold them accountable.
On the Rule of Law, quoting our government's own web site:
° Rule of law means that no individual, president or private citizen, stands above law. Democratic governments exercise authority by way of law and are themselves subject to law's constraints. [Exception: the telecoms and the President get to do whatever the hell they want.]
° Laws should express the will of the people, not the whims of kings, dictators, military officials, religious leaders, or self-appointed political parties. [except for FISA law, which will express, not the will of the people, but the whim of the President.]
° Citizens in democracies are willing to obey the laws of their society, then, because they are submitting to their own rules and regulations. Justice is best achieved when the laws are established by the very people who must obey them. [But corporate citizens don't have to obey the law because they are the tools of the President, who is above the law.]
° Under the rule of law, a system of strong, independent courts should have the power and authority, resources, and the prestige to hold government officials, even top leaders, accountable to the nation's laws and regulations. [Except that the courts can be taken out of the picture, via retroactive immunity.]
° For this reason, judges should be well trained, professional, independent, and impartial. To serve their necessary role in the legal and political system, judges must be committed to the principles of democracy. [Except: Judge Mukasey can be for toture and illegal wiretpping, because he's pals with the President.]
° The laws of a democracy may have many sources: written constitutions; statutes and regulations; religious and ethical teachings; and cultural traditions and practices. Regardless of origin the law should enshrine certain provisions to protect the rights and freedoms of citizens:
For many of you who read my comments know my personal support for the
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Especially, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
All this “the right of the people peaceably to assemble” in the public domain of the electromagnetic spectrum, the Internet” it’s the public’s.
This is where we get to debate unfiltered, perhaps coarse sometime because of the obvious frustration, but this is America’s commonwealth area for our public use. And, in the public electromagnetic domain spectrum the cell phone is also part of the common wealth area where we the have the right to assemble talking peaceably. Please let us all fight for this liberty. Why should our government keep secret to listen to me? Perhaps they want to know who I vote for by listening to my conversations.
If the opposite of pro is con then the opposite of progress must be congress!
I guess we'll just stand around until citizens en masse are carted off to secret prisons for violating some vague unfounded illegitimate terrorism law. When will America wake from the slumber? When your neighbor is taken? When your boss is taken (some people may not mind that)? When your friend is taken? When your brother is taken? Or, when you are taken? All of these signs are after the fact. As we "speak" these conniving worms are conspiring to yank the terra firma out from under our feet! I have sorely confused my representatives with people who care about the actual written de facto law written by the founders of this nation. We as a nation have unwittingly allowed our own system to overcome, dominate, and exploit everything we ever held dear. Tomorrow, when the news comes through the wire, I will simply accept that there is nothing we can do to stave off the acceptance that America is just not America anymore.
We the people....tsss what a joke...
gallery @ 32:
You are being held hostage to defeatism.
Is no one paying attention to this issue anymore?
Dodd is speaking now.
Dodd quoting Reagan:
"Trust me" government asks that we concentrate our hopes and dreams on one man; that we trust him to do what's best for us. My view of government places trust not in one person or one party, but in those values that transcend persons and parties. The trust is where it belongs--in the people.
Dodd quoting Madison:
"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad."
Dodd is giving a terrific speech.
Truly inspiring.
"Outrage after outrage after outrage... why didn't they do anything... what were they thinking of... ?"
if the congress passes the fisa bill and gives telecoms immunity, then
mayge one of those a bombs LIEberman is so worried about will fall
on washington dc and remove the "weakest link" we have in our govt,
the legislative branch. oh, it would not hurt to remove those bastards
called the bush administration either. lol lol
This is as good as it gets in Congress.
Chris Dodd is doing what all Democrats should be doing: lambasting the Bush administration for its actions, calling on Americans and Congress to reject the false choices put forward by supporters of telecom immunity, and standing up strongly for the Constitution and the Rule of Law.
We ignore him at our peril.
Dodd:
"Worse than selling our soul, we're giving it away for free."
Shame. On. Us.
One thing we can do is STOP doing business with companies that have so little respect for the law , so little respect for our privacy and no respect for us , as citizens of the United States .
STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH COMPANIES THAT SPY ON US !
.
My simplest of questions for Congress:
SINCE WHEN IS WARRANTLESS CONSTITUTIONALLY LEGAL?
.
.
HOW COME NO ONE MENTIONS THE WARRANTLESS WIRETAPPING
OF AMERICANS HAPPENING BEFORE NINE ONE-ONE?
Or are we all in daydream mode, still... hoping Congress will somehow, magically make warrantless legal?
.
warrantless wiretapping...it was illegal prior to 9/11, it was illegal after 9/11, and it is still illegal today!
Don't let your congressional representatives grant bushs' lackies in the telecom retroactive immunity for crimes they have already committed.
Sue, Indict, Convict, Impeach, Send to the Haugue to stand trial for war crimes.
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