I heard some nonsense...
...I watched so much coverage last night that I can't remember who said it, (I think David Brooks with Charlie Rose) but the gist was that if Obama wins the primary and he doesn't run to the center then he's a total failure because the "center" is where all the kool kidz are. How can he possibly fix the country if he isn't a centrist? In other words, how can a man run on being a uniter, but be for universal health care and ending the Iraq war (issues both Hillary and Obama are running on) because the hard core wingnut base is against it. Typical Village elder garbage. The Republicans destroy the economy, install torture, start an immoral and unending war and filibuster every piece of legislation that has come down the pike since '06, but if we Democrats don't pander to them---we'll fail to win the White House.
Just shoot me in the face.
Button from evolvefish
Phuck David Brooks phirst
I think you must've meant "immoral," but "immortal" sort of works, too...
caught that...thx. - sitemonitor
no, shoot me in the face.
me too. *bang
Yes it was David Brooks on Charlie Rose. I think David Brooks is the most evil of the bunch -- the smiling aw shucks good cop who gives cover to the most vile elements of the Republican Party.
rekroc @ 2:
no, I think immortal is correct, because this undeclared war will never die!
In b4 Hillary supporters pointing out that their candidate doesn't need to move to the center
My take on Obama's plan is that he intends to try and gain the support of a the bulk of the independent voters by rallying them towards him, not moving towards them or pandering to them. Anyone who thinks that any Democrat is going to draw significant portion of the Shrub's 20% (if its that high anymore) is clueless; further, you really wouldn't want to since the policies that the Democratic base and the GOP base agree on is almost nil.
which is why all of Obama's speeches about bipartisanship I don't think will turn out to be all that successful. The Republicans got us into this mess. Trying for bipartisanship won't help get us out of the mess...
Hopefully, there will be enough democratic congressmen, women and senators voted in, that there won't be many republicans to reach across the aisle to.
Ron @ 10:
But in 06 the Dems get the majority in both houses, understandably by a slim margin, and what sorts of Dems are they? Blue Dogs that let someone like Mukaskey into office. I know some of them are being taken down...but we need to understand that the Dems have many of the same items on their agenda as the Republicans, and just helping them win isn't going to get this country any better
He IS the center!
Stephen Colbert on McBush™: 'Clearly he has hundreds of years of experience'
There is no group of people more easily manipulated than "centrists." Simply run a candidate who is as far to the right as the electorate can stomach, then heavily finance an "opposing" candidate that is moderately right of center to establish the "leftmost" limit on debate. Bingo! You've played the "centrist" suckers into agreeing with the far right.
Sam @ 11:
If we get a substatial majority in the house and senate the blue dogs won't make any difference. Another thing they need is campaign finance reform. Let the public finance the elections instead of the corporations. Some states have a system that seem to be working.
"The Center" is cowardice. It's a little torture. It's some rights, but not all of them. It's why Hillary voted to allow George HW Bush's wayward son to blow up the middle east. It's why she voted to subvert the Constitution in support of the Patriot Act. It's why she's toast in this election. The center is where reptiles like Joe Lieberman and Harold Ford do business. The center is where you alienate every single constituency. The center is NAFTA and Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA and mandatory health insurance instead of universal health care. And a Democrat who'd take advice from the likes of David Brooks would have to be a hopeless, contemptible centrist.
Sounds like the same weenies who insist Dems have to reach across the aisle and work with the fascists. Look where that's gotten them.
Crap.
David Brooks:
http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=David_Brooks
Which Center?
The goalposts have been relocated to another continent by rightist propagandists. Before anybody can talk about positioning a campaign in the "center" we first have to restore the traditional definition of what the center is. And it isn't the middle ground between Bill Clinton and Dick Cheney.
Get your free Pocket BARACK-itizer here.
All 3 of them, McCain, Clinton and Obama, are centrists to a large degree. They differ on how far to the right or left they'd like to go on pet projects (McCain - defense; Clinton / Obama - domestic special interest).
In a perfect world, Obama's centrist message will be unnecessary if the House remains Democratic and a few gains are made in the Senate. He can then become as liberal as he might want (which I still wonder whether it is liberal enough). The need to worry about the GOP's virtual filibuster will be gone because, presumably, Obama will not demand dictatorial power or threaten to veto sensible legislation.
I've got a question! If Rush Limbaugh is urging his listener to vote for Hillary, and the primary turn out is at least 2 to 1 for Democrats to Republican, does something smell fishy? even though it has been awhile since I smelled fish since the ocean been polluted so much. But I think I remember what fish smells like and I am comparing this to the primary turn out as it may be.
Your polemics are starting to bore the shit out of me.
Well said, raker @16.
Mark @ News Corpse @ 20:
Absolutely. A lot of folks who were "centrist" 15 years ago are shocked to learn (from the right-wing talking heads) that they are now radical leftists.
Justin @ 6:
I assumed it was an error too but it still works.
It's both immoral and 'immortal' in that it is never ending.
Ron @ 15:
Except they still aren't going to fight for universal health care, or get out of Iraq, or reduce the military budget, or rebuild the infrastructure of this country.
No prob. Obama already is a centrist. The biggest joke of the campaign is that progressives are supporting Obama. He's a total Con.
It really is astounding how many supposedly objective, non-partisan journalists despise or discount liberal policies and expect Democrats to run as conservatives, even though most conservative policies screw over the general populace and have been disastrous. The same journalists have no problem with far right candidates running on far right platforms. That's our liberal media!
David Brooks in particular always expects Democrats to run as Republicans. It's rather silly.
# 21
po "All 3 of them, McCain, Clinton and Obama, are centrists to a large degree"
IMHO Clinton and Obama are 'centrists'? I agree, I think they both they understand the need to appeal to importnat socio-political blokcs and, sighinificantly, identify with a broad range of interests and concerns.
McCain on the other hand is altogether confused, as the GOP's base and it's usually GOP leaning "Independent" allies. McCain is in the center of something, but I don't think he's in the middle of a substantial consensus--more like a pile shit. It;s a differnet kind of "centrist" position altogether.
Sam @ 27:
Come on Sam, you don't know that. We won't know until we have a system in place. Right now, a congressperson or senator has to spend a substantial amount of time fundraising for the next election. If we have public financing for elections they won't have cater to the lobbyists. If they don't owe the corporations they won't be writing laws that favor corporations.
It's your sandbox, but a thread that merely whines about this issue is weak.
#30. Agreed. McCain is the fun one because he has little to nothing to offer those that make up the actual base of "his" party.
# 29 Batocchio
I share your astonishment;and yet I also don't because Brooks et al always do exactly as you describe. Now my brain hurts.
Conservatives are always telling everyone what to do, why should the one you heard be any different.
Newtie was doing a talking head routine a few weeks ago and sounded like he thought he was a consultant for Hillary.
It's time a Democrat said, without softening the words, "You conservatives have totally screwed up the world and now you're telling us what to do?" Then begin laughing hysterically. But they won't, for fear of offending some obscure demographic.
Ron @ 31:
I totally agree with you about financing. Its ridiculous that one of the huge barriers to running for public office is money. But currently, we are seeing Obama and Clinton give us health care plans that are just not good, and only stand to increase insurance company profits. We've seen both candidates sort of back track on their previous guarantees about gettign the troops out. Right now, I don't think that we will see much of a withdrawal even before their first term. The debate about undocumented worker's rights is so far to the right, its disgusting. And so on and so on...
It reminds me of the people who say they listen to Rush Limbaugh and Thom Hartmann because they think they will find the truth somewhere in between them. I just want to choke them. I have said to their face "so you know that Limbaugh's lies almost every time he opens his mouth and you just figure they all must"? There is no center, just people willing to try to be fair and the rights willingness to take advantage of them. If you take issue after issue and ask Americans, they will come out at a rate around 75% on the liberal side and still think they are conservative. Plus I would never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter. I heard somewhere today that in Ohio that 20% of white men voting Democratic said that race was their most important issue and 90% of those men voted for Hillary.
The word liberal is considered an insult in America. The far right has demonized it.
Barack and Hillary don't call themselves liberals and they are the Democratic front runners. Sorry, I don't think the word liberal will ever become fashinable in America. Not for a LOOOOOONG time to come.
Just stick with progressive. And use the term neocon or neoconservative to stick it to the right wingers the same way they use the word liberal as an insult.
Right wingers don't like being called neocons. Even Hannity has got upset at being labelled a neocon, which he is.
Beat them at their own game.
I'm bummed about Hillary winning last night. I was hoping Barack would win at least TWO states. I want this lame primary OVER!
It is just gonna drag on and on and on. Still, I might be able to support a Clinton-Obama presidency. If Obama is Clinton's V.P., I could live with that. That would be enough change for me.
A woman president and a non-European vice president.
Sam @ 36:
We can't rebuild the democratic party from the top down, we have to rebuild it from the bottom up.
Right, left, center, up, down, sideways.......what's with the media and these stupid analogies...who cares what a talking head thinks? If the idiot actually knew anything, HE/SHE would be running for Prez and not talking about it on tv like they know anything. The best part is, most of their "experts" are criminals, already found guilty, but got off through a pardon or a technicality. Ya some expert. Perhaps the media in all their wisdom would like to answer why so few actually vote on election day.
Ron @ 39:
Yes that's true, but it certainly doesn't help to have candidates who talk about substantive change, and only propose policies that will keep the status quo.
I have absolutely no faith that any of the candidates, or the newly elected Congress with get anything done. So I hope that everyone who is so excited about this race (which I think is great by the way) continues their involvement and tells whoever the next President is, that we want things like universal healthcare, and an end to this war, and so much else...
But John, Obama IS a centrist ! Haven't you heard of what he said about Reagan ? Haven't you heard of what he said on foreign policy ? Economy ? Pakistan ?
Sam @ 41:
All anyone has to do is look behind the curtains to see how much "change" any one of the three remaining candidates will do. The campaign team for each of these people, are the EXACT same people that have been in Washington for years. Every election, same people. Once elected, who gets the big jobs? Same people that were part of a previous administration that screwed up things it touched. That isn't change.
Sam @ 41:
It's best not to alienate voters that don't feel exactly as we do either. We don't know what they will bring to the table once they are elected. We do know that it won't be the same as what we have right now.
"The Republicans destroy the economy, install torture, start an immortal war and filibuster every piece of legislation that has come down the pike since ‘06, ..."
Mr. Amato,
Mostly true, but review the button used as graphic. The Repugs haven't needed to "...filibuster every piece of legislation..." because of the "...Wimpy, Spineless Democrat (sic) Politicians." BTW - really do appreciate the diction turn to "immortal (sic) war" as conceived by W and perceived by Insane McCain.
Be well,
Horst
Ron @ 44:
Yeah, it could end up being worse! There is no one that is challenging them to move to the left. Maybe Nader can do that to a degree, but right now, the fact that their policies are considered "liberal" is ridiculous. If one of the healthcare plans is passed, that's the new healthcare system, and probably for a long time! Why not propose universal coverage, and then after going through the voting process, maybe it ends up like Clinton or Obama's current proposal. If one of their bills is debated and rewritten, we are going to end up with the same exact thing as we have now. I've head Obama say he would support bombing Pakistan. Hillary still won't apologize for her Iraq war vote. And honestly, I don't care if it's the politically viable thing to do. If Dems are too afraid to demand REAL change after this pathetic administration, we are never going to see any better. Maybe the Dems keep things the way they are, but we aren't going to see things get better. Obama and Clinton want to increase the already inflated military budget.
Sam @ 46:
I'm really getting tired of this conversation. Look at what happened to Edwards and Kucinich because they talked about universal health care. Come on Sam, sometimes you have to hold your cards close to your chest.
Ron @ 47:
Right, but a lot of that is because the media never gave Edwards or Kucinich a chance, and no one ever spoke up about it, outside of maybe blogs. Notice that in the first few debates, Obama and Clinton were always in the middle of the stage. And throughout all the debates, Obama and Clinton got much more time to speak. And if any of the other candidates got the chance to speak, the question was proably about their views of Obama and Clinton.
Also, I'm not going to vote for someone that isn't going to fight for my ideals, and I'd say universal healthcare is a big one. Its also widely supported across the country. On top of that, I can't really think of a time a politician went above and beyond their campaign promises, most of the time its watered down without much changing. So I'm not going to trust that everything will change once they get into office.
Horst @ 45:
You sound a little horst to me.
littlehorn @ 42:
Stop it. What did he say about Reagan? What did he say about the economy? What did he say about Pakistan? Quit with the talking points. He said intelligent things about all of those issues, but they were bent into something else by people who would like to distort his message.
Both Obama and Clinton are more liberal than they are running right now, which is completely fine by me. IMHO, Clinton is more hawkish on foreign policy (see Kyle-Lieberman, Land-mine ban, etc.)
The racist, xenophobic, corporate, reactionary right has redefined where the "middle" is.
Sam @ 48:
Especially if his/her number one priority is getting re-elected (like, IMHO, the last Clinton.)
The center can not hold.
"Just shoot me in the face." John Amato.
Somebody call Dick Cheney, he'll be happy to do it.
I dunno, I worry about the Liberal's penchant for picking a looser!!
Lindy
My button would say, "Liberal and proud", full stop. The right can go fuck themselves. They belong in prison.
"The Republican install torture?" That's a bit naive, like saying that the Democrats installed unfaithfulness in the White House. The US has been torturing for long before this administration came to power, probably almost as long as US presidents have been screwing around on their wives. The current administration was a bit less careful in trying to conceal it, that's all.
"Just shoot me in the face"
Who are you, Paris Hilton? Such vulgarity!
Now that the moderate right is totalitarian fascism, Obama should run on the radical left...so we might preserve some of our civil liberties and bits of what once made America great.
Edwin @ 55:
What, and deny all them bruisers who's been in prison longer?
I see the button uses "Democrat" as an adjective. Hmmm.
Wahhh???
"How can he possibly fix the country if he isn’t a centrist? In other words, how can a man run on being a uniter, but be for universal health care and ending the Iraq war (issues both Hillary and Obama are running on) because the hard core wingnut base is against it."
That's funny, John.
Obama is a "centrist". (He sure ain't a progressive) and neither he (nor Hillary) is not for "universal health care".
In other words, neither he nor Hillary have to "move to the center". They are both...already there.
Ooopppss.
"Obama is a “centrist" (He sure ain’t a progressive) and neither he (nor Hillary) are for “universal health care”."
(Sorry...Cut and paste fade)
Akin to the difference between the median and the average. These guys only consider the geometric center and not the gravitational center.
You need Obama's "centrist" bona fides:
Read George Will in praise of Austan Goolsbee, Obama's chief economic advisor and the guy who got his hand caught in the Canada/NAFTA ringer.
MargeAggedon @ 26:
I can keep you guessing..hehe
Ron @ 15:
It won't make any difference how many Dems get elected. The powers that be that control both political parties are playing the American public like a bad violin just like the Dems did in 2006 -- and then those same powers ensure that whoever gets elected will do whatever they are told. The only way a presidential candidate becomes a major candidate is if they are bought and paid for from the outset.
The Dems of 06 highlighted just how little they care about the values and opinions of the people who voted for them. They aren't wimpy, in fact it takes a lot of balls to go against the wishes of your constituents again and again and again. They just know who they serve, though, and it isn't the American people. Don't kid yourself.
McCain in my mind is running to be slaughtered because the elitist power brokers need a Democrat horse to pick up the ball and run with it for a while to placate the population. But you watch. They are already preparing you for policies that make no sense -- like the continuation of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the continued rollout of the police state and the stripping of basic human rights in America -- under the guise of bipartisanship. And of course none of the police state measures enacted under Bush will be reversed; indeed, the new Democrat president will be as thrilled to have those powers at his disposal as Bush ever was. Perhaps even moreso; they will not be hindered by a suspicious public the way Bush was.
The button should read "I am a sheep and I am tired of being fleeced", but one would have to acknowledge they are misinformed and being played continually. I don't know when many of you are going to acknowledge that this is what has been happenning, but when you do, be prepared for a number of long dark, nights when you do. The powers that be long ago decided that the Democrats had to be placed in the White House. And that president won't give a damn about you.
Change may be the keyword in this election, but it is the illusion of change that is the reality of the situation.
David Brooks wrote a column in the NYT on Monday, I think, to explain why Obama was so great. Everything he said crystallized every reservation I have about him.
if the dems cave and give the telecoms immunity retroactively, then
it's the time has come for the Patriotic American Citizens to overthrow
this fascist govt as provided to the citizens in the Constitution of the
United States. those in wash d c must obey the laws of the land and
stop supporting the criminal actions of the gop, the pres and vp.
Obama is already a centrist. We Illinois progressives sent Obama to the U.S. Senate, where he promptly joined the Joe Lieberman wing of the Democratic Party.
http://progressivepunch.yvod.com/members.jsp?member=HI1&search=selectSco...
He’s not a progressive.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11936
But he’s a master at pretending to be one.
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
"Obama is a company man.”
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
“Barack Obama Inc.: The birth of a Washington machine”
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/11/0081275
Friend of Exelon
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/03/america/03exelon.php
His economic advisers are very conservative, from the University of Chicago-Milton Friedman school of economics.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080211/fraser
His voting record is pro-business.
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2007/street0207.html
His voting record is pro-war.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12687
He glorifies American imperialism.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13396
He flip-flopped on the Palestinians and Israel, and now is AIPAC-approved.
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2008/01/obamas-israel-shuf...
He has shown repeatedly what good friends he is with anti-gay African American preachers.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2007/11/obamas-anti-gay.html
His chief political adviser is the Daley machine’s chief strategist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/magazine/01axelrod.t.html
Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
Sam @ 11:
For the record, there are no Blue Dogs in the Senate.
FTR #2, it is better to have an AG than not to have an AG, so Mukasey is better than nothing. Without an AG, there is no way to fight the DoJ. Even a bad AG gives Congress SOME ability to investigate the DoJ.
I think the right wing nutball Brooks had a bought of cognitivie dissonance last night. Let me see, the "wingnut" base of the Democratic party is against universal healthcare and ending the war in Iraq. I think he was talking about his ring wing, totally nuts base, huh! He did make one point though, we are where most americans are, which I guess makes us the mainstream right!
David @ 66:
The conspiracy in your rhetoric is so overamped you have the answer: DO NOTHING.
No thanks, I prefer to take the White House, add 40 Dem seats to the House, and replace five Senators.
You can continue to interpret the world in the way that is the most LAZY, that requires the least amount of effort. What's your big plan? A big fat DIAL TONE.
I don't know why my previous comment didn't post, so I'll shorten it.
The truth is that Obama is already a centrist. We Illinois progressives sent Obama to the U.S. Senate, where he promptly joined the Joe Lieberman wing of the Democratic Party.
http://progressivepunch.yvod.com/members.jsp?member=HI1&search=selectSco...
He’s not a progressive.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11936
But he’s a master at pretending to be one.
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
"Obama is a company man.”
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
“Barack Obama Inc.: The birth of a Washington machine”
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/11/0081275
Friend of Exelon
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/03/america/03exelon.php
His economic advisers are very conservative, from the University of Chicago-Milton Friedman school of economics.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080211/fraser
His voting record is pro-business.
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2007/street0207.html
His chief political adviser is the Daley machine’s chief strategist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/magazine/01axelrod.t.html
Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
dadams @ 68:
Sure thing. Grab up your flintlock, the rest will be right behind you.
Until you hit the microwave weapons, it's going to be a real rush.
And, dadams, the 'provided' you refer to is in the Declaration of Independence, which is NOT part of the Constitution. There is no right to rebellion in the Constitution -- you can ask South Carolina about that. Sherman pointed it out to them in considerable detail.
kaT @ 28:
The rightwinger said for years that Hillary would be the biggest mistake to run for president, and now they are endorsing her.
There are known known, things we know that Hillary loves the corporates,
and there are known unknown, thing we know that we dont know, Obama for the people?
and there are unknown unknown, things we don't have a friggin clue with flip flopping McCain!
Hillary is more conservative than Barry. Barry is far left of Hillary. He is a Trojan house. What is he for? Hope? What is in for me? We are for less regulation, less government, fewer taxes. We can party with Bill in the “White House” while Hillary is in charge.
Paul in LA @ 71:
Right, and everything you Dem apologists have done has been so, so much more effective. We still have Bush in power for another nine months or so followed by the next corporate flunkie, the country is still spiralling into a police state, the wars and looting continue unabated. Ya, I think your plan is so much smarter, and so much more like doing something. I'm so impressed.
Of course you are an individual with all the mental curiosity and critical thinking capabilities of a sheep who looks for outside guidance as to what is true and what isn't. You pick your political parties like football teams, and as long as your Nazi gets into power, you feel like you have accomplished something. And of course there are people who study people like you and know if they can recruit enough "useful idiots", the gravy train that is Washinton can continue unabated.
We are heading into one of the most serious economic cycles this country has seen since the great depression, the country is rapidly going bankrupt and the political classes are moving against the people because they know when the bottom falls out, people are going to be furious about things and realize they have been had. Hence all the draconian measures to track, spy and corral the population. The wars abroad were directed against the American people as much as they were directed against "terrorists" overseas. And the Dems have been right in line with every single fascist move Bush has made. They are all on the same page.
What are you saying, that conspiracies don't exist, that politicians are pure as the driven snow, that there are few examples of the government using its considerable power to manage and reign in its people and wrap it in a delicious crust of freedom and truth? I would suggest that control and tyranny are the rule of governments throughout history rather than the exception, and I don't know what further proof you need that this country is sliding dangerously out of control toward dictatorship.
Waking people up to the realities they are facing is a monumental task. Monumental task. When people begin to recognize the fact that they are being played, the Wizard behind the curtain can be shown to have no power. Until then, we will continue to be sucked dry.
And while more and more people are becoming totally fed up with the status quo, the whole election has only highlighted how completely gullible the general public is, how complict the media is in maintaining the illusion, including I might add this site. When people begin to wake up to some of the fundamental truths about how this country is operating and where it is headed, there is a real chance that the cancer that has infected the political life of this country can be reversed. Until then there is plenty of evidence to suggest we are due for more of the same. Or worse.
Fuck Brooks and the myopic political spectrum he rode in on. These people are insane.
They have presided over the wholesale gutting of the US treasury, the ongoing catastrophic devaluation of the US dollar, the most expensive government entitlement program since LBJ (Bush's prescription drug plan), a $3 trillion war, illegal domestic spying on American citizens . . .
and they somehow still get away with calling themselves anti-big-government conservatives.
Just where the hell does he suggest "the center" is, when McCain, Mr. Hundred-Year-War, is too liberal for the Republican base?
They have to run to the center because the majority of Americans are not bat shit crazy libs.......
John, you should have stopped after "I watched so much coverage tonight..."
It's bad for you, John. You're a hundred times smarter than the people you're watching. Fox Network? MSNBC? Chris Matthews? Why are you wasting your valuable time? Really, John...do you like watching dopey commercials that much? Do you like verbal pillow fights more than you like intelligent discussions of issues? Are you a celebrity buff?
Please answer one question for me (anyone else can answer): "Why would any intelligent humanoid, hoping to become better informed, watch television in the 21st century?"
Carolyn Kay @ 73:
Carolyn Kay is, of course, correct. Obama is center--center right. As is Clinton. Look at their voting records. This means nothing to most of the readers of this website, though. Which is why the dems care more about steroids in baseball than in holding the Bush admin. accountable.
David Brooks is not a village elder; he's the village idiot.
The man has been right about nothing for eight years--at least. How does he stay on TV and in print? Oh, right. It's the right-wing media conspiracy!
Could we get a wake-up call to the roll-over-and-play-dead Dems in Congress. Enough already. Impeach Cheney and Bush and get out of Iraq.
Newsflash for conservative talking heads: wanting to stop flushing away a million dollars an hour in Iraq, or wanting affordable healthcare for all Americans, or wanting to provide the most basic rights to prisoners in Gitmo IS the center. The 70% of Americans that want out of Iraq are all "bat shit crazy libs" as chris says above? Come on. At some point their heads will explode from the mental gymnastics required to make goofball neocon assertions without cracking up hysterically.
HW @ 77:
Are you kidding? If you are for less regulation and less government, you want Pres. Dubya to be declared ruler for life. He has gutted government by appointing incompetents to every conceivable post and bankrupted the nation with his unprovoked war of choice. The Bill of Rights has been suspended (come on, the whole country IS a "free speech zone") and apparently no one in the executive or legislative branches thinks the Constitution applies either. Four more years of Dick and Dubya and we could have a Libertarian utopia--no government whatsoever, just uncontrolled, unregulated corporate tyranny.
Oh crap, "Homeland Security" just pulled up out front. Guess that pre-emptive domestic spying actually works.
Diogenes Says: HW @ 77:
Hillary is more conservative than Barry. Barry is far left of Hillary. He is a Trojan house. What is he for? Hope? What is in for me? We are for less regulation, less government, fewer taxes. We can party with Bill in the “White House” while Hillary is in charge.
Are you kidding? If you are for less regulation and less government, you want Pres. Dubya to be declared ruler for life. He has gutted government by appointing incompetents to every conceivable post and bankrupted the nation with his unprovoked war of choice. The Bill of Rights has been suspended (come on, the whole country IS a “free speech zone”) and apparently no one in the executive or legislative branches thinks the Constitution applies either. Four more years of Dick and Dubya and we could have a Libertarian utopia–no government whatsoever, just uncontrolled, unregulated corporate tyranny.
Oh crap, “Homeland Security” just pulled up out front. Guess that pre-emptive domestic spying actually works.
Any group that is as parnoid as you are need to get back on your drugs.
Sounds Like talking points from the left. If anything you said was a fact it would exist. Prove anything you believe or perhaps lie about should be taken with any truth. You believe what you want to hear. Hillary for President and Bill for first Stud.
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