KS Man Dies After Being Tased At Goodyear Plant
By Logan Murphy Wednesday Apr 02, 2008 8:16amCJOnline: (h/t J & Scarce)
The Shawnee County Sheriff's Office on Tuesday released the identity of a Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. employee who died Sunday after being tased by a sheriff's deputy.
The man who died was Walter E. Haake Jr., 59, of Lawrence. However, the sheriff's office released no other details about what led to the tasing at the Topeka Goodyear plant.
Early reports indicated Haake had been suffering from a medical condition and had resisted emergency personnel's efforts to subdue him. The sheriff's office said after several attempts to control Haake, a deputy used a Taser on him.
Haake was taken by ambulance to a Topeka hospital and later pronounced dead. Read on...
Here we go again. We've covered some of the recent incidents involving tasers, and just last week an 11 year old girl was tased in school to "stop a violent temper tantrum." This one ranks right up there with the worst of them and is sure to reignite the taser debate. I realize that all the facts of this incident haven't been released, but it was known that this man suffered from a medical condition that was serious enough that his employer was trying to keep him from driving himself home -- this should have been a no-brainer and the deputies should have found a better way to handle this situation.
*Update: New details have been released and it appears Haake had fallen down some stairs at home before going to work that day and he was actually tased 3 times before being thrown to the ground and handcuffed. He quickly became unresponsive and they performed CPR for 20 minutes before they removed his handcuffs.
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Primero!!!
In this particular case I would like to see more of what went on. The cops out where I live use their guns instead of tasers when trying to subdue someone with a mental problem. It MAY be that this deputy was trying to refrain from using too much force and I'd hate to spread the idea that tasing is not as effective as shooting.
I have asked for a couple of decades now why cops don't carry anaesthetic guns. Never have gotten a good answer.
Man...these "non-lethal" weapons are not really livin up to their hype...fuckin cops are probably like.."Well at least I didn't shoot him!"
No Brainer, indeed. Tasers are not being introduced to their users properly, it would seem, as the effects of an electrical jolt vary from one person to another. This death should be tracked back to the issuer of the taser, and that entity held liable.
If an ordinary person used a taser in a hostile situation, how much you want to bet that person would be charged with with an assault crime? Yet............
Medford Tim @ 2:
Maybe because you never know what chemical or substance one might have a fatal allergy to.
I wonder what Tasers do to people with implanted defibrillators. At my age I doubt if I'll find out - But you never know these days.
You know, based on what I'm reading here, the guy didn't break any laws. I don't understand why the taser was pulled out in the first place.
The man may have been going into diabetic shock. Some tend to get violent and resist help when that occurs.
bizona @ 6:
That's true, but I think it's safe to say that EVERYBODY has a "fatal allergy" to electrocution.
I don't know if you all read the article on the 11 year old, but those are some sick parents..."She deserved it" was one of the more common responses. Tasing isn't supposed to be a punishment I thought?
If the man wasn't armed, seems to me a couple or three policemen could have overpowered him. Cops seem to be too quick to use the tasers. Just like they did with the kid of the famous "don't tase me bro." They clearly had that kid down and under control when they zapped him.
I think the key to this story is that the man was having some kind of medical condition, and someone in a position to use better judgment, decided to administer electric shock, without regard for what the man's medical status may have been.
Negligence, at best.
ShouldBeWorking @ 11:
I was bothered by that too. My wife works at a grammar school and she's encountered plenty of parents like that. Funny thing is that they're the first ones to scream that they're going to sue when someone looks cross-eyed at their little darling.
When will these murderers who find employment at cops ever be taken to task?
I work in a mental health crisis unit and deal with violent people all the time. Even when we have a skeleton crew there are enough trained people there to subdue somebody. But even then we get hurt. I was out 14 months with a total shoulder separation that required 3 surgeries and still isn't right.
While I totally understand that people can lose it and become out of control - even children, I can't fault deputies for doing what they have to in order to subdue a person. We've had some extremely violent children who are large enough to really hurt somebody and they have.
The media always makes it sound like some poor, sweet 11-y/o was brutalized but if you had to deal with some of the kids we do you'd think differently. While it may not be the kid's fault (they may be extremely mentally ill or have extremely poor parenting) that doesn't make them any less dangerous.
There are a lot of times I wish we had a "Wild Kingdom" dart gun that could put a person down in seconds from a safe distance.
There is no training in the world that even executed perfectly can guarantee you won't get seriously injured if you actually have to put your hands on somebody which is why we avoid it until absolutely necessary (the person is endangering themselves or others).
Before anyone casts stones try putting yourself in that kind of danger day after day and ask yourself how much you're willing to let your own body be broken in order to not harm the person who is causing the damage in the first place.
ShouldBeWorking @ 11:
It's not supposed to be punishment. It's supposed to subdue a person so he can't harm anyone else.
I am hearby serving notice that if ANY law enforcement officer of ANY kind EVER uses one of these on myself or any of my children I WILL KILL THEM!
Try me!
I think this is the way we combat this problem.
skypilot @ 9:
Without knowing the circumstances of what was going on I agree with skypilot. When a person goes into diabetic shock they become very uncooperative just before they go comatose.
Everyone has heard of the Polish immigrant (spoke no English) who was tased to death within 25 seconds of the RCMP arriving at Vancouver Airport last fall?
http://tinyurl.com/38y9em
(Link is to CBC)
What happened to common sense? I'm curious to find out if Haake's supervisor told police about him falling down the stairs prior to them using the taser on him.
Mike the Canuck @ 19:
Does the reason a person is violent matter to the person he's being violent toward? If a guy is trying to kill you because he had a bad experience totally unrelated to you do you do nothing?
Just asking.
earl @ 20:
you bet...and as it turns out there was a polish speaking official (according to global tv) in the area
PS. Regarding my post @16, we never use any kind of weapons to subdue people. Only ourselves. And like I said, we get hurt too often.
We need to give tasers the death penalty.
Why should police be allowed to carry the pocket electric chair?
Who the ef do they think they are??
StevePam @ 25:
What would you do when confronted with a person who is extremely violent toward others?
We saw some red flags when back in 2004..
Quite a Bush Homeland security nominee.... ( and then you have to ask why )
Bernard Kerik made millions from Taser International, which does business with the agency.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-12-09-kerik_x.htm
Also... In light of all of the chaos that our country is experiencing.
researching... ALL Bush Signing Statements...
On Jan. 18, 2007 George W. Bush issued Executive Order 13422 (E.O.),
which amended Executive Order 12866, ---> Regulatory Planning
http://ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4120/1/85/?TopicID=2
Send To Congress and whats left to the Media:
RESEARCH ALL 2001-2008 BUSH SIGNING STATEMENTS
http://www.coherentbabble.com/signingstatements/SSann2002.htm#2002-08
It looks as though Bush Is "Tasering" ... and Deliberately Harming Our Country and People
CafeenMan @ 26:
What did they do BEFORE tasers???
If you can't take the heat don't be a police officer period.
The pocket electric chair is no solution.
I work with people who are idiots too as do most people but I don't get to electricute them nor do I think THE POCKET ELECTRIC CHAIR should be the EASY BUTTON for chicken-shit lazy cops.
In the words of our all-knowing administration..."they volunteered"
CafeenMan @ 26:
I understand the points you're making, but Haake wasn't violent, he was resisting treatment and was not a threat to anyone. He obviously wasn't thinking clearly, but from everything I've read about the incident so far, he wasn't trying to attack anyone, he wanted to be left alone. I do have a question for any medical professionals who might read this -- they performed CPR on him for 20 minutes while he was handcuffed. Does that make a difference on the effectiveness of CPR?
This was actually a dress rehearsal for the Obama/Clinton "We call it universal but its really not even close" healthcare plan.
Enjoy.
Mike the Canuck @ 23:
I heard the kid who took the cell video interviewed on As It Happens while the mounties still had his camera, they GAVE it back to him later --- without deleting the video ...weird. If they had deletedit, there would have been no case:
"dude had a heart attack, nothing to see here' ...
StevePam @ 28:
They did take the heat. And I asked a specific question that you completely avoided. If somebody is violently attacking somebody your job is to protect (kids for example), do you resolve it non-violently? The world is waiting for a better answer. What's yours?
Don't kid yourself this countries a dangerous place now with every rent a cop rent and security guard with a 10th grade education armed to the teeth and ready to kill.
There is no "taser debate". Pigs like Giuliani and Kerik and the freaks that run Blackwater own stock. Therefore, Taser Good, Sell Many!
police state?
Just drop the "non-lethal" crap. Tasers have proven to be often enough. Then law enforcement or security may use them like they would real handguns and can't hide behind the "non-lethal" legalese anymore when things go wrong.
Logan Murphy @ 29:
It sounds to me like the response of law enforcement was over the top. My peeve here is that liberals particularly think there is some sort of "sheep" response to every situation and they get up in arms every time a law enforcement official hurts somebody.
I work with a lot of deputies and yes, some of them have hard-ons for their power trip. But most of them do the best they can. They deal with violent people every single day. They get singled out and executed by gang-bangers. They show up at domestic disputes and get killed ringing the doorbell. They get executed at routing traffic stops. They aren't the bad guys. They make mistakes and there are some people in the job who shouldn't be there.
But they also save a lot of lives and frankly I'm tired of hearing about them being fascists who just get off hurting people. I promise you most of them would much rather not ever be in those situations.
It seems to me a lot of people believe that every single law enforcement official should be some sort of elite special force with years of training, split-second reflexes and can perform error-free. That would limit our national law enforcement force to about three people.
Can anyone here do their job without ever making a mistake? Hell, you signed up for it. If you can't perform error-free then you shouldn't be doing it, right?
CafeenMan @ 32:
I avoided NOTHING you liar! I anwered that with......What did they do BEFORE tasers???
Who took the heat? WTF is that supposed to mean?? Heat from that 11 year old girl??That elderly immigrant??The elderly guy who fell down the steps and refused help??That kid who was pissed at Kerry???
Now which one was attacking children??? Oh I forgot..thats your off topic fantasy that has NOTHING to do with what I said so stop DEMANDING I answer it.
I said nothing about resolving things non-violently.
I am all for settling disputes with violence AND I stand by every word of my post.
spiritcatcher @ 36:
It's not non-lethal. It's mostly non-lethal. It should be the last response before the last response - a gun.
It would make me happy for anyone here to tell me how to prevent a violent person from hurting anyone else with a guarantee you won't get hurt in the process and a guarantee the violent person won't get hurt either.
Anyone?
One thing for sure... we have never seen this level of insanity.
Keep a list of Police Dept's where this is occurring in American cities and towns..
Citizens should confront their local elected city, county, and town officials
and find out where and who trained them.
StevePam @ 38:
My question to you was how would you resolve the situation. And you're saying your answer was "What did they do before using tasers"? I guess I don't see that as an answer to any question I asked. So where did I lie?
Anyway, I'll ask you again. How would you stop a violent person with a guarantee nobody gets hurt in the process?
Or how about this. When deputies are on-scene and the violent person hurts somebody that's the deputy's fault too for not stepping in? Not claiming that's your viewpoint. Just asking.
I think it's high time we classified tasers the same as guns. You can shoot someone with either, and depending on the location the effect can be either death or submission. Tasers are not non-lethal, as we see over and over, and the rapidly indiscriminate use of them is appalling.
Any adult that would use such a weapon on a CHILD should be put in jail for brutality. There's no 11 year old girl in the world that needs to be tased by an adult. These weapons are designed to bring down fully grown men, so using one on a child is criminal, in my mind.
I have utmost respect for police, as they do put their lives on the line every day. However, common sense, hard work, and compassion seem to have been replaced with the easy excuse of these fucking tasers. They're no different than guns, and should be used with as much restraint.
more at my blog...
Absolutely no doubt that the deputy should recieve the death penalty for 1st degree murder considering the circumstances.
Terrible @ 43:
Finally we hear from somebody who witnessed the event personally.
And let that be a lesson to the rest of the union folks who still think they are entitled to a safe,just and fair working condition. Thats such pre 911 thinking. I know i am nuts but has the rest of the world completely caught up to me now ? Out of control, rouge cops are just another reason many are using to avoid traveling to the good ole ? USA these days.
Ummmmm... seriously, WTF?! Whatever happened to the good ol' gurney with leather straps to subdue someone with a medical condition?
I don't need to know any more. Sue the bastards. Sue every damn police department that uses tazers for any reason. This man committed no crime, and even if he did, he did not deserve this.
ood callon the diabetic symptoms, but with a significant fall down some stairs prior to the episode, one would also have to rule out a head injury.
So either we ended up with a heart attack as a result of the exertion of the struggle, or the taser put the man into asystole.
my question is would an automatic defibulator been effectiv to bring him back.
CafeenMan @ 41:
Oh..more fantasy scenarios for me to answer....go away gnat.
You lied when you said I avoided your question.
First of all, I owe you no explanation.
Second if you pretend you can't comprehend my answer from the question I asked then you are just being an A-hole.
Third nothing is truly guaranteed but I do know that if cops did things the way they used to there would be no deaths from tasers.
Obviously you missed something because the cases we are talking about have NOTHING to do with your question!
Either the pocket electric chair should be outlawed or killing to make ones job easier should be legal for everyone.
StevePam @ 49:
Are you always this hostile? And you feel you have the right to judge others?
You obviously don't HAVE to answer my question and you obviously aren't going to. I was pretty sure you couldn't anyway.
Hey, cops should be allowed to kill anyone they want at any time for no reason. That's the official GOP policy. Since torturing people to death is now US policy, what right do US citizens have to protest against non-violent but non-compliant arrestees in handcuffs?
The Republican Party has made is very clear since Bush Senior was made President in 1981:
If you resist authority, you will be killed.
Let it be known that CafeenMan was pwned on this day.
I saw it and it was righteous.
As a physician, I can offer a hypothesis: The man suffered head trauma in the fall at home, and the trauma of "throwing him to the ground" ended up killing him as a result.
Cops should stay out of medical care. And doctors should stay out of law enforcement. The two don't mix.
I don't think tasers should be outlawed. I think police officers that misuse tasers that result in death should be prosecuted and fired. From all indications, Haake did not attack anyone, he merely resisted help. In this case the officer should be prosecuted and fired.
Cops like this should be thrown in jail where they belong. This is disgusting. Lazy ass police who would rather use their tasers than do their jobs.
And now a man is dead because of these cops. Worse than criminals.
Not a Goodyear for the KS man.
CafeenMan @ 50:
You have no question you fool!GEEZ!
In all of your replies to me do you feel you had a point?..not one SHRED of substance unless you think...."oh yeah?....well what would you do if this happened or that"
Big efing deal..you still said nothing.
Yes I am hostile toward aggressive idiots.I already told you I am all for settling things with violence
You have NO questions!Only IGNORANT off-topic insults and demands that I answer your retarded,unrelated fantasies.
Not happening.
Now you answer some questions.
What was your point to picking me to keep replying to?Not a smart choice was it?
I was hoping you would admit to yourself that you are making a fool of yourself and getting served and quitely slink back under the bridge but now I see I have to stop feeding you for you to get the picture and go.......
CafeenMan, the argument you are making is quite ridiculous when you consider that it hinges on this notion that a someone being violent towards others can't be subdued without someone being at risk, yet in this case the only violence seems to have been directed towards the man who is now a corpse. If you are interested in trivializing the pointless death of a man who broke no laws by broadening the scope of the conversation to taser mortality statistics, perhaps you should consider what your position might be if that man had been, say, your father.
I suppose you are all for extraordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques and the abolition of habeas corpus because hey, the people that are jailed and tortured without significant evidence or due process cant ALL be innocent right?
Cafeenman is just throwing up Jack Bauer Wingnut fantasy arguments. There was no one in danger, the man committed no crime. And surely the cops on the site could have used a standard takedown. Tasered 3 times? Sick and unnecessary.
Cops kill innocent sick civilian. Beginning, middle and END of this story.
Except that it will probably happen again as more and more police are trained to use tasers like they are some sort of Star trek stun gun.
Before tasers they used their nightsticks which could cause concussions and hematomas and/or chokeholds which asphyxiated arrestees.
Tasers were supposed to be safe; I imagine everyone hearing, "Set your phasers on stun."
The problem is we're dependent on technology to make things easier for us. If they could create a smoke bomb tommorrow from cannabis, they'll be an arrestee with lung problems or goes into diabetic shock after he needs a Twinkie.
Arrest me, officer!
Tasing, starvation blockades and strategic bombing
We are hard-wired to find the direct application of physical violence on our fellow human beings stressfull and unpleasant. Good thing, too, or we would have gone extinct soon after the invention of the club. The three things named above predictably allow and encourage violence to get completely out of hand, because they short-circuit that protective hard-wiring by allowing deadly destruction to be applied without any effort that feels at all violent to the perpetrator.
Nobody would want to do the kicking, punching, hammer-locking that would have been required in this case to subdue this 58yo without killing him, precisely because he was an old, sick man, not some cartoon villain. However wrong factually, of course it felt less violent to the officers at the scene to tase this victim than to kick, punch and hammerlock him to the ground. Tasing just involves pushing a button.
The best answer to this problem is to do what we can to prevent the short-circuiting of our protective hardwiring. No one gets issued a taser until they have sat through horrific video footage of sick, old men being killed, however unintentionally, with a taser. Then after they get the best that we can do to viscerally reconnect pushing that button with potentially killing a human being, we give everyone who gets a taser the proper training in taking down with minimal violence people who can't be reasoned with. Psych techs deal with floridly crazy people all the time, and I've never heard of one of them killing a patient. No one should get issued a taser -- or a truncheon, or a gun -- until and unless they get this psych tech training, and demonstrate the knowledge, skills and attitudes necessary to apply it correctly.
We expect the police to deal with people who won't or can't listen to reason. We have to give them full training in the full spectrum of means to do this, so that they can choose the least violent method possible in any given situation, not just the method that viscerally feels less violent.
The same applies to us as to our servants, the police. When we feel (usually an erroneous feeling, but that topic deserves its own dissertation) that some other nation can't be reasoned with and needs to be taken down, we have to limit ourselves to the least violent method to achieve that end. Starvation blockades and strategic bombing may feel less violent to the perpetrator, but most assuredly are not less violent than sending in the infantry. There are international laws already on the books, that we have simply ignored for 50 years, that limit the violence of warfare to combatant-on-combatant violence. As with the taser, you could, as we habitually do in self-justification, blame new technology for our failure to act in accordance with rules sanctioned by the long experience of human nature. But, just as tasers really present no new self-control issues not seen previously with the truncheon (Remember Rodney King? Not a taser in sight.) or the gun, so the strategic bomber and the submarine only made it somewhat easier to do something already known to be wrong from long experience, trying to win a war by killing enemy non-combatants.
A US electorate that was serious about regaining self-control after 50 years of reckless and highly destructive behavior, would first put itself through the moral equivalent of training films in which sick, old men are unintentilnally murdered by taser. We would put ourselves through our own Nuremberg Tribunals, and finally hold accountable the public servants who enabled and facilitated the crimes. But that, of course, would be merely hypocritical blame-shifting unless it is accompanied by a serious acceptance that the guilt is really ours as an electorate. They're just our servants, and they're not supposed to be fascist Leaders. After ridding ourselves of the criminals, we would then have to resolve to never again allow these crimes, the targeting of civilians in war, no matter what the imagined benefit to ourselves, in the future in our dealings with other nations. We need to call another international congress to revisit whatever modifications and adaptations to targeting civilians actually might be required by new technology in the law of warfare. I doubt that there is anything non-trivial in that respect -- neither the means nor the temptation to the mass murder of enemy civilians in war is even remotely new. This is not really a technology problem. It's a self-control problem. If we can't or won't accept the principle that not targeting non-combatants is the very essence of the distinction between war and mutual genocide, which principle is backed up by the practical observation that targeting non-combatants simply doesn't work for any war aims short of genocide; then we simply are a rogue nation that the rest of the world must either band together to destroy, or submit to eventual genocide at our hands. At the end of the day, we have to give up the narcissistic delusion that killing enemy civilians does anything but make the enemy more, not less, likely to oppose us to the death. We didn't respond to 9/11 by becoming more open to the idea that maybe we hadn't been fair to the Palestinians. Do we imagine that other nations are any different?
If we are going to set ourselves up as the world's policeman (again, a topic that deserves its own dissertation), the least that reason requires of us is to show the same professional ethics, including self-restraint and insight into human nature (our own and that of others), that we expect of the police forces that we grant the use of public violence to maintain order within our own country.
It's real easy for nuts like Cafeenman to justify this abuse, UNTIL it happens to his family. And if nuts like him have his way, it's more and more likely that one of his relatives will get Tased and killed.
Quit justifying a murder. Please.
In regards to the question of How to subdue someone who is violent and not get hurt yourself...
When I worked in a psychiatric ward, it was quite common to have to deal with people who were being violent to themselves, to others, or to their environment. Our response to subduing the individual was quite simple; we sandwiched them between a matress and a floor or wall or another mattress. No one ever got hurt.
Now, every cop car being equipped with a mattress might be odd, however, I'm sure that an alternative means of subduing someone other than electrocuting them has got to be available.
Cops have armor to wear, much like football players. They can tackle the violent individual like they've been trained to. Electrocuting, (I refuse to minimize what it is by using the word "tase"), someone who is already handcuffed and down on the ground is just over the top police brutality.
Like previous posters have commented, What did the police do before tasers? Violence is nothing new, but portable electro-shock is. Perhaps it's not exactly the right tool for the job.
Too bad cops don't get Naval Seal or martial art training in the move, counter-move.
greg white @ 63:
Were they mowing the grass?
Come to think of it EST was outlawed years ago, although there's now a newer version called ECT that's creeping back although it's controversial. Isn't that addressable to the taser controversy. Afterall, in the former two, doctors were applying it.
There has been a recent change, about ten years, where police seem to have re-categorized non-violent passive resistance to be an assault on police.
That anyone can even think, "It's good for the police to tase non-violent people" is already so very wrong. That obnoxious kid at the Kerry event should never, ever have been tased. The police feel so confident with abusing their authority that they can torture non-violent resisters on national TV and our docile US populace, numbed from decades of 'Cops', no longer find that to even be a problem.
Tasing non-violent people for simply refusing authoritariansim must be outlawed nation-wide immediately.
66 Comrade Rutherford
I guess you've heard about the army tank that sets up something like a force field that burns people, supposedly without permanent damage.
Their hope is peaceful protesters would be driven away from the tank, but anyone trying to withstand the pain to get closer is a threat they can kill.
The best answer to this problem is to do what we can to prevent the short-circuiting of our protective hardwiring. No one gets issued a taser until they have sat through horrific video footage of sick, old men being killed, however unintentionally, with a taser.
NO, the best answer is that these cops know they will lose their jobs and face criminal charges for unnecessary use of these weapons. And it should be against the law PERIOD to use these weapons more than once. Can we teach the police to grow some balls and learn some grappling/submission maneuvers? How hard is it to subdue a sick 60 year old?
A cop neighbor of mine got thrown off the force for tasing his neighbor at a party. What a cutup that guy was... Throw these goons off the force. They have no place in Policing a park for cig butts, much less our neighborhoods.
And tasing an 11 year old? Jesus- you imagine YOUR 11 year old being tased by the cops and you tell me it's okay to stop fits. I guess its better than another cop (Still on the force here in lubbock- Ofc. Tracy Taylor) blowing away a 14 year old with a steak knife. If you can't subdue an 80 pound child without using 3 bullets, maybe you shouldn't be on the force. Seriously.
I just called the Goodyear plant in Topeka and spoke to some consumer relations asshole who yelled at me, cursed me out and hung up on me. As far as I'm concerned we should march on their plant and disassemble it with our bare hands! Enough is enough! What will it take? A new civil war? The American People vs. the Shadowy Overlords, perhaps? Civil war is looming large, and I believe it is just what our country needs. We won't be able to take our country back from the Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi worshippers of Moloch. I'm sick of secret societies running the show while the rest of us suffer more and more every year. WE MUST RISE UP AGAINST SUCH ABUSES AND MAKE THESE COMPANIES, POLICE, ETC ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR MURDERING OF U.S. CITIZENS!!!
At 50000V , 20A in 10sec pulse and with the taser's track record so far, you point that thing at me, you might as well point a gun at me.
Perhaps, we should reconsider calling these weapons as "non-lethal?"
I agree that cops need a non-lethal means to take down violent offenders, but no assailant is going to carry around his medical records.
I should add that this tank is supposedly only going to be used for foreign operations, although who knows?
If that 11 year old girl didn't have a Hispanic name and had blond hair and blue eyes instead, would she still have been charge with assault and battery? Just asking...
69 Indigowatcher
Moloch was smeared in the Bible. He was the sun God of the Canaanites, possibly the Ammonites, in Palestine, ocassionally worshipped by the Jews as well. Apparently what caused the hubub bub was passing children over a bonfire, not burning them to death, in a form of baptism/naming ceremony. Maybe there were some sacrifices, but probably only during extreme duress.
Here's a Youtube link to a scene in one of my favorite movies, Metropolis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiOQ5RV07xA
Fade @ 68:
This was my point exactly. Years ago a good friend of mine Dan Pinkowski taught martial arts to County police and prison guards.
Did the people he trained abuse martial arts to the point of deadly force?
No!
So why are the same people ok with abusing tasers to the point of making them deadly?
There are too many variables to make the blanket statment that tasers are safe or non-lethal!
Reminds me of Chuck Schumer claiming flash-bangs can't kill..... in a documentary about the Waco hearings conducted by the Joint Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives, surely one of the most gratingly memorable characters must be the snide, sneering, sanctimonious, acid-tongued Representative Charles Schumer (D-NY). Fortunately, Waco: The Rules of Engagement allows the ever-obnoxious Schumer repeatedly to discredit himself with his own words. In one segment of the hearings Schumer is shown upbraiding defense attorney Dick DeGuerin for referring to the FBI's "flash-bangs" as grenades. Schumer fulminates: "This idea of the FBI having hand grenades, not flash-bangs, but hand grenades — And then the coup de grace, Mr. DeGuerin says flash-bangs can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything about these things knows they can't."
The documentary then cuts to Congressman Bob Barr (R-CA) questioning ATF agent Jim Cavanaugh. Barr asks if the flash-bangs used by the ATF and referred to by Schumer are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 6845 (f), to which Cavanaugh answers in the affirmative. Barr then asks if it is true that they can kill people, to which Cavanaugh replies, "Certainly. Yes sir." So much for the self-anointed know-it-all, Mr. Schumer.
Outlaw the pocket electric chair....no one has a right to kill people just to make their job easier.
Tasers... the non-leathal alternative??? Apparently, not quite so much as advertised... We're starting to see a fairly consistent track record of both lethal incidents as well as bad actors using this device under cover of authority... Perhaps a bit of rethinking the whole idea is in order..... When it's being used on people who are non-violent but not doing what someone wants, as it seems to be the case in this specific incident.. when it's the first go to solution for a misbehaving 11 year old at a school... that is just a screwed up protocol to be following.. What next? Parents opting to tase their children for not getting good grades? Maybe for being out after curfew???
This slope is starting to look pretty damned slippery all the sudden.. This tasering business as I'm hearing it, among other disturbing things, begins to sound a little uncomfortably like a replacement for the belt or switch for parenting miscreant kids and I thought that whole corporal punishment thing was discouraged and discredited by the big brains who like to teach us all how to raise our children... In fact I think there are laws on the books now for dealing with parents to beat their errant children all the time. I guess these laws never anticipated a pocket shock device....being used by school officials. And I can't help but wonder.. is this just opening the floodgates for less than together people who are parents to begin thinking, 'well hell, if the cops are doing it, if the schools are doing it to keep kids in line.. well, why not??? It's non-leathal...Right???
Look, I ain't going to point fingers at anyone specifically even though I do believe the law enforcement agencies in this nation across the board needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and try to figure out how to deal with the one bad actor out of say ten cops who goes all Dirty Harry all the time making the rest look bad by association... That shit needs to be delt with but its a much larger issue than strictly the tasering problems we are seeing. All I'm really saying is there is something seriously wrong with this picture. And real experts from several fields of say psychology, the technology field and law enforcement really needs to evaluate just what the hell is going sideways here... Because something clearly is.....JD
Cats r Flyfishn @ 72:
Probably not.
I saw your blog. I saw that pic of you and Obama. cool !
We don't know why Haake resisted help, but I don't think it's a stretch to say he may have been thinking about the medical costs involved if an ambulance was brought in and he had to be taken to the hospital.
lsantana @ 58:
I didn't trivialize anything. I even said that this case seems over the top. I'm not passing myself off as judge, jury and executioner based on the little bit of the story we have like some others here are. I know I don't know the facts and I know nobody else here does either.
That's quite a stretch considering I'm as anti-neocon as a person can be.
My whole point which I guess isn't getting across is that I'm sick and tired of people bitching about fascist cops when they have no idea what it's like to be in their position making quick decisions.
I've asked several times for someone to provide a better answer. Nobody seems to be able or willing to do that.
If a cop abuses somebody he should pay the price. I agree that tasers are over-used. But any time a person brandishes a weapon it may kill somebody. Any time a person needs to be restrained somebody may get hurt, maimed or killed. That's just how it is.
You know, cops don't show up at my door. When cops show up at your door the first thing I wonder is what you were doing to get their attention.
Back to this guy. Was he under control or wasn't he? If he wasn't under control then the cops acted to bring him under control. Did they over-respond? Sounds like it but I don't know.
If the guy was under control then why did he act in a way that the cops felt they needed to taser him?
I know if I were staring down an armed cop I would hope to have enough self-control to not give him any reason to use a weapon on me.
Real life situation. A 14 y/o boy who is about 190 lbs and built like Mike Tyson decides to bash his aunt's skull with a shovel. Luckily she survives and somehow the kid isn't arrested but is taken to a mental health center for treatment.
After he's released he assaults his 100% disabled, wheelchair-bound mother and puts her in the hospital and he's brought back to the mental health center. No arrests.
Now if cops were there and they tasered the kid, the media would do what they always do (without actually lying) leave out the pertinent facts about the size and temperament of the kid and make it seem like he's just a regular kid who got angry and the cops killed him. And of course he's a minor so they can't show pictures of him or give his real name.
wijg @ 77:
We have people in our center who need medical attention and refuse. Most of the time it's because they can't afford it. A lot of folks are down and out already so it's a catch-22. If you send them to the hospital it screws them and if you don't it screws them.
I'd like all republicans to not have the same medical care they're refusing to everyone who isn't as affluent as they are.
Logan Murphy @ 29:
No it does not.
Fade @ 68:
I don't disagree with you that firing folks who fail to show the professional ethics that we should require of the police, would be appropriate. In fact, criminal prosecution might be appropriate in such cases. But prevention is more desirable than cure, so training beforehand is more to the point than punishing violators after the fact. And I get the impression, I would be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, that whatever taser training the police get tends to be left in the hands of the manufacturer (hey, that saves taxpayer dollars!), who perhaps is only equipped to train on skills, and not the knowledge and attitude that such a modality obviously requires, even if the manufacturer didn't have the clear motive to downplay safety issues. Yes, policemen who tase inappropriately do wrong, perhaps even criminal wrong, but an electorate that chooses to give untrained policemen the power to apply public violence also does wrong, does it not? What do you propose as your punishment, for your gross failure to supervise, through your elected officials, the police power in this country?
The point of asking this question is not that we should slink off unwilling to look for justice in this issue because we ourselves are guilty -- but that you should consider that punishment is more a confession of failure to properly address a problem than it is an answer to any problem. Let's not talk about punishing the police until and unless we have done all that we can to send them out to do their jobs fully prepared for what they will face. If we're going to talk about punishment at this stage, the focus should be on these abuses of the taser by police being merely a small foretaste and modest down payment on the just and inevitable punishment visited on we the people for decades of knee-jerk reaction to the problem of crime with the simple solution of ever more draconian punishments for whoever can be railroaded into a conviction. We have the police, the courts and the prisons that we deserve, not a jot worse, and not a jot better, and should not be surprised when institutions that we have systematically allowed to become blindly retributive, blindly visit retribution on ourselves.
duncanidho @ 48:
If he was in asystole an AED would not work. AED's only work for Ventricular Fibrillation.
How in the heli can CPR be done properly when the victim is handcuffed?
(this is the 2nd time I posted this. First time it disappeared)
ysbaddaden @ 73:
====================================
Hey Ysbadaden. Really? I'll admit, I don't know much about Moloch, just a few Youtube videos I've seen that mentioned Moloch in relation to the Bohemian Grove. I think that this particular Moloch cult rules the world, and if the stories are true, it's creepy beyond words!
Btw, sorry for getting OT...
Point is, enough is enough and we the American People need to rise up against this Tazer bullshit! It could be your child or your elderly parent or grandparent next!
So in order to prevent an ill (possibly already injured man) from hurting himself further, the cops throw him on the ground an taser the shit out of him. Typical shit for brains cop response; I swear these guys just make a bad situation worse. And please, trolls, spare me the responses that "not all cops are like this and we need them to keep us safe, yada yada yada". Every cop I ever met was the same personality type: a meathead with a short temper. You're better off not calling them if you need help. Unfortunately, if you call for medical assistance, the fucking cops show up anyway; why? who knows.
clytemnestra hussein orestia @ 84:
They weren't in a heli. They were in a building on the ground. :)
It just seems these days that the taser is the Big Mac of law enforcement:
You serve up order quick and easy...well, easy for the officer. At any rate, it takes effort, experience and often nuance and skill to cook a meal and none of the same to order a Big Mac. Ok, you have to know how to count to hand over the money for the burger. The taser is a shortcut to imposing the officer's will. Want fries with that? Or is that...want to be fried or what?
I am certain there are scenarios where the taser is the safest solution for everyone concerned, even the perp, but this sort of thing is happening all too often and I am left to wonder how many officers are still getting true, traditional, practical police training anymore.
I remember when the Taser came out, it was supposed to be used in cases where a gun would previously be used. No other case...
Now its used simply as a torture device to keep the results you want.
11yr old who sounds like she has mental problems. Not able to restrain her? Guess what, just close the door. Calm things down instead of getting wound up instead.
A hurt person in diabetic shock. I don't know, maybe not tase him while trying to calm him. I'm thinking a taser would do the opposite.
Its not for subduing, it was for stopping a threat (in a hopefully non-lethal manner.) It was not meant to be used to restrain or gain additional power over someone. That's its new use, and one it fails on completely.
kbass @ 81:
I would say it would. (ICU nurse x 10 years). If he was cuffed in back, it would be physically impossible, if cuffed in front, compressions would be less than ideal because of a change in the position of the chest. If the handcuffed one arm to a stationary object, then it would be ok. I've done CPR on a patient handcuffed to the bed before.
Why the hell would you tase someone in a medical crisis? If they thought is was a diabetic crisis, diabetics can have fragile vascular systems, it would not be a wise choice. The possible head injury adds another dimension to this, too.
Why not restrain him? If the paramedics were there, they usually carry a set of leathers or soft restraints. Or, maybe sedate the guy.
I don't get tasing a person having a medical crisis. It's very disturbing.
Most of the cops I know are out of shape and over weight. Using
a teaser instead have to physically restrain someone is their only option.
CafeenMan @ 79:
Show me a 14 year old who's 190 lbs and I'll show you a kid who's too goddamn fat to cause any trouble. In any event, this story is not like the figment of your imagination. In this case, the cops roughed up an already sick or injured man, threw him to the ground and tasered him until he was dead. Another "heckuva job" by the boys in blue. Why is it that trolls can't deal with the facts on hand, but must always respond with bullshit hypotheticals?
geneHUSSEIN214 @ 92:
I don't know why trolls do that.
The case I cited is absolute fact. I personally dealt with the kid on two occasions when he came and and he received a physical so we know what his weight was and how he was built. He wasn't fat and in fact, when the cop brought him in the kid was in cuffs and he was still managing to throw the much taller cop all over the place until we could get the kid restrained.
I'm aware of what the story says about the guy presented here. You know as little as I do about it. Or were you there?
"Tased" sounds like fun, like waterboarding. I prefer the word torture. A Taser is a device for sadists.
Remember when the worse we had to worry about at school or work was being teased?
CafeenMan @ 93:
I think the hypothetical that you introduced is the part where they leave out the pertinent details such as the kid's man-like size and history of violence. They might leave them out and sensationalize the story (believe me, I am no big fan of the MSM in general. Two months on Anna Anna Anna Anna Nicole? Puh-lease!), but then again they could just as well report them as those are pretty juicy details in and of themselves.
Anyway, in an attempt to answer the question you have posed to everyone here, I'd say that the solution is traditional police training:
Negotiation, patience and then when the time comes, overwhelming the person with sheer numbers. Cops are not here to kick ass (I assume; perhaps I am being naive, eh?), but to keep and restore the peace. I imagine that most good cops take a lot of pride in not having to use excess force, tasers, or their guns in order to be effective. Then throw in a proper diet, appropriate martial training and some exercise to help make the average cop more effective.
CafeenMan @ 93:
Man is ill, possibly injured. Instead of assisting in restraining him until he received proper medical attention, they throw the guy on the ground, handcuff him, then TASER the poor bastard, causing his death. Those are all the facts I need. By the way, thanks for setting me straight about that kid, but this situation clearly isn't the same.
raker @ 94:
Here's my preference
http://www.owk.cz/pic/visit.jpg
That sound you hear?
Our society swirling around the toilet bowl.
Well, duh. If we can torture people because we call them 'enemny combatants' we can tase a disabled child who is having a tantrum or a man with a head injury who wants the EMT to leave him alone. Just wait, it won't be long before we learn that a police department waterboarded a prisoner, or used electrodes. Your rights began to disappear with Reagan, under Bush II they went bye-bye.
raker @ 94:
That some people are willing to argue in favor of this practice boggles my mind.
Do they REALLY think it is the BEST thing to use or are they just Taser International Inc. shareholders?
I like the name pocket electric chair.No court costs no jury selection no nuttin'.
You simply electrocute repeatedly until dead!Just set it and forget it.
Evinfuilt @ 89:
That's really the bottom line here. The 11 yr. old girl, the man that did not speak English, "Don't tase me bro" guy, and this 59 yr. old man did not deserve tasing. In the absence of a taser, the officers would never have used a gun against any of them (at least I would hope not).
Tazers are simply another abusive use of electronics. Just like vote tabulation devices. Just like microwave pain weapons.
Powkat @ 100:
Powcat, you should check out this piece that was in the October 2007 issue of Mother Jones. It's entitled "School of Shock" and it's probably the most disturbing thing you'll ever read. Short version, cops aren't the only ones using tasers; just wait until teachers are authorized to carry them (and that day is coming, believe me).
http://tinyurl.com/23trwp
Here's an excerpt from the "mother" of one of the kids who went to the Rotenberg Center
Michael, now 19, suffers from mental retardation and severe autism. These days, when he comes home for a visit, Marguerite carries his shock activator in her purse. All she has to do, she says, is show it to him. "He'll automatically comply to whatever my signal command may be, whether it is 'Put on your seatbelt,' or 'Hand me that apple,' or 'Sit appropriately and eat your food,'" she says. "It's made him a human being, a civilized human being."
You are a very sly comedian. I like how your question asserts that tasing is the way to "guarantee nobody gets hurt in the process."
I know you couldn't be stupid enough to comment on this story while making the assertion that tasing "guarantee(s)" nobody is hurt, so you must be making funny.
Very good!
CafeenMan @ 41:
wijg @ 102:
EXCELLENT points, both of you. That's the part where these cops start getting accused of laziness or not using their training to find a better option or whatever myriad things we can accuse them of (ending a sentence in a preposition! Bad!). Are we to assume that absent a taser every airport spazz-out or 11-year-old-super-tantrum will turn into a turkey shoot? No. So why do they use the taser anyway? Looks to me like it's being used in the name of expediency, rather than good police work.
Bonkers Hussein @ 96:
Thank you. As far as sensationalizing, I tend to watch stories about kids and cops and almost unanimously they don't come out and say it but they tend to lead you to believe the kid is just any other kid. I don't see much sensationalizing unless the kid goes missing or is kidnapped or something. But when there's a bad outcome for the kid at the hands of a cop they always make the cop look bad.
If you could see some of the kids our place deals with you'd understand where I'm coming from.
Over-whelming numbers probably is the best way to go against an unarmed person. I don't know why they didn't do that unless they didn't have over-whelming numbers. Frankly, I'd like us to be a society where everyone didn't feel they needed to be armed to the teeth - including cops.
Our first step is to try to de-escalate people and that works more often than not. When that doesn't work we move to a show of force. Just having the numbers gets people to pull themselves under control. When that doesn't work we start circling because we know what's coming next. Sometimes it works and sometimes the person goes off. Usually he goes after the biggest person in our group and we take him down quickly and get him restrained.
We've had a lot of training in de-escalation in the past few years because we want to become restraint-free. In reality I don't see that ever happening but the training alone has reduced the number or restraints tremendously. When I first started working where I do now (5 years ago) we were restraining several people a week - sometime a day. Now it's a handful in a month and usually it's a psychotic person who really has no control over what they're doing. It's as much for their safety as everyone else's.
Ultimately, I don't think cops have nearly the handle on mental health issues that we do. I'm sure they receive some training but it's probably a side-dish at best. I think they expect people to respond to their commands faster than is sometimes reasonable and they are less willing to take chances because they don't have as controlled an environment as we do.
When people get to us they have already been cuffed in the back of a squad car and are disarmed. While I consider my job dynamic it's nothing compared to being on the street.
And if you keep up with the news, look at how many people are walking into various places randomly blowing people away. I think a cop would be foolish not to be decisive and all he can do is hope he's reading the situation correctly and making the right call.
I don't think there's a person on this planet who could do it without making some serious mistakes in his career.
And no, I'm not justifying bad cops. But how do you know they're bad cops until they screw up?
"The proposal was stalled because there is no scientific research showing what Tasers can do to kids medically." Taze first, get information later.....
geneHUSSEIN214 @ 97:
Gene - I understand and I've said at least twice I think the cops over-reacted. And that's all the judgment I'm willing to pass knowing as little as I do. If it's as bad as it sounds, then they deserve to be fully punished.
Peace.
CafeenMan @ 39:
how about if they come at you with fresh fruit, a pointy stick or a red herring?
If a violent person is attacking you, use a gun. Your life is in danger.
When someone needs your help and they aren't being violent, don't tase them.
To return your red herring....
Why do you think cops should tase everyone they meet?
arjuna108 @ 105:
No, I'm not being funny although you're welcome to view me that way. :)
My point is that there is not a way to guarantee nobody gets hurt. And when people get hurt it's not always police brutality. Regarding this specific case, I've addressed it several times already.
With all the deaths from tazers should it not be considered an attack on your life? Battery at the very least.
One things for sure, if cops are going to use tazers so are criminals. Imagine the 110 LB female trying to get to her car in the parking lot late at night, out pops the criminal with a tazer, toss's her in the van. Which begs the question if someone tazes you can you shot them with a real weapon in self defense?
No the only thing going on here is it's a continuation of the same torture mentality, allowed too continue and grow and fester and they will start using cattle prods in prisons next. (IF it isn't already being done)
Weaseldog @ 110:
Depends... is the fruit or herring spoiled? I need more facts before I can respond. At least enough so the goal posts don't keep moving. Thanks. :)
If it’s as bad as it sounds, then they deserve to be fully punished.
Does that mean life in prison for causing a death?
Phil @ 114:
Even the death penalty if it's egregious enough. Whatever the law stipulates.
I'm trying to find some kind of statistics in taser fatalities / taser use. Not finding much. Found some stuff indicating numbers of fatalities but not percentage so it's not real useful. But I did come across a statistic that said 79.6% of people tasered were unarmed.
Tasers have their use. When someone is out of control and dangerous to others. When they need to be subdued to keep them from hurting someone and the other option would be shooting them. I work in an ER and I have seen people successfully tazed when the only other way to get them under control before they endangered other people would have been to shoot them.
Obviously that was not the case here. Tazing someone for refusing medical care is obviously outside their recommended usage. They had the man's keys so he could not drive.
My guess is that he died from a head bleed, not the tazing though if he struggled with them for 45 seconds after being tazed.
I have seen officers use them as behavior control devices on unruly people and I am conflicted about whether this is appropriate or not. I've never seen them have to actually taze someone to make them "behave" but I've seen them tell someone in cuffs that was starting to act up that if they didn't behave they'd get tazed and it set them straight right away. "takedowns" are dangerous and cops and the takedownee can get injured in them and they do. We read all the time about people dying after being taken down by the cops without tasers. Anytime someone out of control needs to be contained its a risky situation. In fact, the guy in this article died after being taken down. Was his death from the take down or the taser?
CafeenMan @ 79:
But the cops never saw the need to taser him.
But they do see the need to taser a man experiencing a medical emergency.
So what you're saying is that cops don't need to taser 190lb violent teens, but they do need to taser people that need their help.
If it’s as bad as it sounds, then they deserve to be fully punished.
Does that mean life in prison for causing a death?
Even the death penalty if it’s egregious enough. Whatever the law stipulates.
I don't see that happening, and there's the black hole, "whatever the law stipulates"
If a civilian buys a tazer it usually has a sticker on it saying something like it's a felony to use this device in the wrong manner. (I remember having this discussion before somewhere)
Phil @ 112:
It seems that tasers are being used in robberies now. Once the perps are caught, and this goes to trial, the issue of whether tasers are lethal or not will get a ruling.
1) Although CPR while cuffed might increase the risk of injury to him, it would probably still be effective.
2) Having a history of falling downstairs before work makes me suspect that he may have had a slowly accumulating subdural hematoma (in his head) and his bizarre behavior may have been due to this. If that is the case don't be surprised if they say he would have died with or without the taser.
3) The "anesthesia gun" idea is the same kind of fuzzy thinking that got us tasers. Anesthetizing someone in an uncontrolled setting carries no risk? Obviously wrong. The person can be injured falling to the ground, certain medical conditions that may not be obvious (e.g. sleep apnea) might make it lethal, and you would be faced with estimating the person's weight and trying to calculate the appropriate dose (or saying, "OK, you can keep the knife but please step on to this scale for a moment!"). And, of course, there is the issue of allergic reactions as mentioned earlier but that would be a rare complication. There is no reason to believe it would be less dangerous than a taser.
You may recall the Russians attempted a hostage rescue by pumping anesthetic gas into a theater and many of the hostages were killed by the gas. Remember, if it works on Star Trek that may not predict real world results!
Which leads me to if it's a felony and a cop does it three times, is that three strikes? (Even if no one was killed)
Weaseldog @ 117:
In the kid incident the cops didn't arrive until after the deed was done and the kid ran off. I don't know the details of how they caught him but in this county it usually means helicopters, cars and dogs. But the point is they weren't there to stop him. If they were and they tasered him and the kid died then the cops would be the bad guys because the kid hadn't whacked his aunt in the head with the shovel yet. And if they were there and they didn't stop him from cracking her skull they'd be the bad guys for not doing anything. I would hate being a cop. If you're not helping a citizen by getting the safely across the street then you're a brutal or an incompetent clown (or dead). Can't win.
So this guy wasn't doing anything illegal, he wasn't suspected of having done anything illegal, yet he was tased anyway. How can anybody justify using any force at all against somebody who has done nothing wrong and isn't even suspected of having done anything wrong? Those cops should be fired, even if it turns out that his death resulted 100% from the fall he took at home.
CafeenMan @ 37:
American's are addicted to herofication, especially of people who wear a uniform. The fact is that police officers are less likely to die on the job than fishermen. That's right, FISHERMEN face more dangerous conditions than police officers. All the hyperbole about gangs and out-of-control spouses won't change the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
The following jobs had some of the highest fatality rates for 2005 --
Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 118.4
Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 92.9
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 66.9
Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 55.6
Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 43.8
Farmers and ranchers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.1
Electrical power-line installers and repairers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 32.7
Truck drivers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 29.1
Miscellaneous agricultural workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 23.2
Construction laborers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 22.7
Police Officers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 18.2
That is not to argue that the work isn't dangerous, however the dangers they face should be put into perspective in light of our culture's tendency to hero-ify police. They are simply people, some good, some bad and some totally unfit for the work.
Using the taser has clearly gotten out of hand and apologists for their unnecessary use of force just need to stop it now. People are dying and they didn't commit any crime, or if they did violate the law it amounted to a trifling misdemeanor!
What's the solution? Uhhh... less violence! How about they learn to man-up, buck-up, stop being so fearful and automatically resorting to electrocution or gunfire?!!
FEAR is why the US is in trouble in Iraq! Too many Americans are convinced that if we kill the ever-changing 'them' first they won't have the opportunity to kill us.
Phil @ 118:
It seems to me there were plenty of witness to this event so if it goes to trial I think the cops will get a fair shake. There were other professionals on scene (paramedics) as well as employees of the plant.
There clearly needs to be more guidelines and boundaries to taser use. In fact, that applies to use of any kind of force. When I was a soldier I felt safe. I work with enough cops now and see what they're dealing with I'd never feel safe doing what they do.
Beelzebud @ 99:
Are you the green
Or the corn chunky one?
120 arjuna108
Wasn't Arjuna the warrior Krsna taught in the Mahābhārata?
122,
while I agree cops don't have a good job.
Should we allow them to be so militarized and intimidating?
We're not talking the Gaoul in Stargate here fear and intimidation is way out of hand in the United States.
It's no wonder protests are so small now. Between the plastic orange fences like the NYC 2004 GOP to the LA Immigration Protest it's looking more and more like the GAOUL are in charge. This ain't America. You don't assault the media.
Isome Hussein @ 124:
The other jobs you mentioned are people getting killed in accidents which most of us tend to avoid by being situationally aware. Cops have people actively trying to kill them. It's not the same ball-park but I do see your point. But I didn't say or even mean to imply that cops are heroes by virtue of being cops.
On second thought accidents can happen to anyone and some jobs tend to have more of them so situational awareness is probably less of a factor than I said. But it's still not the same as having someone gunning for you.
Isome Hussein @ 124:
American's are addicted to herofication, especially of people who wear a uniform. The fact is that police officers are less likely to die on the job than fishermen. That's right, FISHERMEN face more dangerous conditions than police officers. All the hyperbole about gangs and out-of-control spouses won't change the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
The following jobs had some of the highest fatality rates for 2005 --
Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 118.4
Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 92.9
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 66.9
Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 55.6
Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 43.8
Farmers and ranchers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.1
Electrical power-line installers and repairers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 32.7
Truck drivers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 29.1
Miscellaneous agricultural workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 23.2
Construction laborers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 22.7
Police Officers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 18.2
That is not to argue that the work isn't dangerous, however the dangers they face should be put into perspective in light of our culture's tendency to hero-ify police. They are simply people, some good, some bad and some totally unfit for the work.
Using the taser has clearly gotten out of hand and apologists for their unnecessary use of force just need to stop it now. People are dying and they didn't commit any crime, or if they did violate the law it amounted to a trifling misdemeanor!
What's the solution? Uhhh... less violence! How about they learn to man-up, buck-up, stop being so fearful and automatically resorting to electrocution or gunfire?!!
FEAR is why the US is in trouble in Iraq! Too many Americans are convinced that if we kill the ever-changing 'them' first they won't have the opportunity to kill us.
Maybe fishermen should carry tasers?
/SNARK
Weaseldog @ 129:
They have something like that. It's called Navy Sonar.
.
Anther example of how a NONLETHAL device kills.
.
Could someone please direct me to more information regarding this case! I've noticed that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to find out WHY they tased him and what his actions were that merrited BEING TASED!
Unfortunately, it appears that the taser has become the batan's replacement for strike breaking and civil protests. I'd take the batan any day; at least you can see that blunt monstrosity flying at your face from a hunderd miles away.
.......what you can't silence or sedate with Ritalin, the taser takes up the slack! Someone help AMERICA get our voice back!
figs004@hotmail.com
See also this recent taser death.
If you need a taser to suppress an 11 tear old child, YOU ARE A PUSSY.
Another reason to hate cops.
Nice going copper. You might as well start shooting them with real bullets again. This tazer thing is killing them just as fast.
I just called @ 785-368-2200 to express my disapproval. The rest of you might want to do the same.
to andy@132 He just needed to rest up a little, he was tired. If the police have officers who are so frighted of an unarmed, handcuffed 59 year old man then they should move to school crosswalk guards! Tasing a person after they are cuffed is , the same as beating them after being cuffed Its called a crime. Where is this new breed of cowards calling themselves police officers coming from? What a bunch of pussys. Shoplifter won't come out of store? Jay walker refuses to lie down in street, call swat, lock down all schools ,block street in 10 mile area, stop people from going to their homes and most imporant call the local news media and hint that the suspect might be tied to al kadar! In my day real police officers would just walk in and arrest them and it did not take 200 of us nor did we need swat! The swat teams were reserved for the armed and dangerous not the old and handcuffed! these are not police officers, they are bullys and cowards with a badge. being a police officer is no longer a job with honor,protecting and serving the citizens. I urge all officers who believe in the ideals of this country to stand against the law breaking bullys and cowards when they see it, These are not fellow officers these are punks who have somehow got past background checks.
Hulk @ 135:
If they were real coppers wouldn't copper thieves steal them?
Protesters at conventions ought to plan on carrying tasers on their person in order to protect themselves. This is an outrage!
Fanon @ 90:
I've done CPR with a person handcuffed in front. Not a problem. Yes, Paramedics do carry leather restraints, but its really hard to put them on when a person is fighting you. As far as sedating the guy, Paramedics don't do that as a restraint. (Paramedic 10 years)
129 Weaseldog Says:
Maybe fishermen should carry tasers?
/SNARK
That would save us having to cook our fish sticks.
"I just called @ 785-368-2200" So did I and sheriff Holliday refused to answer any questions. So I called the Topeka FBI office (785) 235-3811 and requested that they investigate this as a homicide. I respectfully request that all C&Lers do the same.
Be polite. The FBI did not kill this man the sheriff's office did.
The whole point of "non-lethal" weapons like Tasers is that they can be used in some situations where deadly force would otherwise have been necessary, thereby possibly sparing someone's life. I believe most police departments use this standard as a rule of engagement for use of Tasers. The problem in so many of these stories is that these weapons are used in situations where there would have been no justification whatsoever to use deadly force. The broader issue is the obvious fact that the police cannot be trusted to police themselves. They are the one who are empowered to enforce the law, but they refuse to really enforce it on each other, effectively placing themselves above the law.
sammy @ 145:
Except that they do - this wasn't a "deadly force" incident, and they didn't use deadly force - unless it says contrary in their policy and procedures manual, the deputy was within her training and responsibility. As for not enforcing the law on eachother, thats misinformed. After use of force incidents, especially with serious injury or death - the officers are placed on administrative leave and are investigated by a veritable alphabet soup of internal and external departments and committees. Contrary to popular belief police officers do NOT want to hurt people/shoot people - it's actually the LAST thing they want, even the asshole and racist cops don't want to, because it turns their life upside down.
When the law breaks the law, then there is NO law. To Serve and Protect?? . . . . .
CafeenMan @ 26:
Is a gun and nightstick not enough? Just how much power are we going to give our police? What's happening to us??
John @ 147:
...But what law are you talking about? Someone wrestling with the police who were there to help him, gets tased by a deputy who I am willing to bet was following policy to the letter, and they die of something that may not even be related to the tasing incident - there isn't anything illegal there. Not to mention that the other options the officers could have taken to put him in custody which could have hurt him WORSE, instead of wrestling with him, spraying him, etc. the taser in this case was the least likely to cause injury to him and the officers, even if it does turn out to be the cause of death, the officers made the best choice they could with the knowledge available at the time.
living-abomination @ 149:
Since you were there, and have an insight into the officer's choices, can you give us more detail so that we can better understand how tasing this man was the best choice?
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