Daily Show: Billy Graham vs. Jeremiah Wright
By SilentPatriot Wednesday Apr 30, 2008 8:00pm
Continuing to be the most respectable name in (fake) news, The Daily Show put Wright's comments in context last night...well, in the context of controversial things former pastors of all stripes and presidential allegiances have said over the years. Kinda odd that only a Democrat comes under fire, no?
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"Billy Graham remains a beloved figure. Jeremiah Wright said things I don't imagine are much worse than that. Why is he such a flashpoint for controversy?"
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Maybe the fact that it was a different time is why Graham was not taken to task like Rev. Wright. I am not sure why; this is just speculation. But I don't believe Billy Graham made those statements from the pulpit.
To think there is someone in the white house who is LESS popular than Nixon, now that really is something !
Religious people are crazy
lookit me, i believe in magical flying people and virgin births
i believe in books written 2 thousand years ago which talk about witches
Way to keep the story alive, Stewart.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/01/jon-stewart-slams-media-for-obs...
obsessive, indeed.
PssttCmere @ 1:
SO?
He made them. He's a racist asshole. And he was whispering these things in Nixon's ear. Just like Wright is (supposedly) whispering them into Obama's ear. Have the goalposts for what is outrage been moved again? I guess I haven't been keeping up.
“Billy Graham remains a beloved figure. Jeremiah Wright said things I don’t imagine are much worse than that. Why is he such a flashpoint for controversy?”
*************************************************
As I see it, the answers to that question are simple -- although by no means pretty.
1) Wright is African-American
2) Wright is associated with a Democratic politician, whereas Graham has typically been associated with Republicans. (Rev. Hagee, as another example, is associated with a Republican candidate and yet his inflammatory remarks have received considerably less attention and criticism compared with those from Wright. Double standard? You betcha...)
i feel that if you believe in god, you are not in touch with reality
spirituality is merely a severe yet apparently admirable psychosis
its ok to believe in non existent make believe spiritual entities, but wrong to want to give children health insurance
2000 of Christian history PROVES that a christianity
is an enemy of peace, understanding, freedom, tolerance and goodness and a practitioner of genocide, torture, discrimination, indifference, sodomy,
rape, incest, and tax evasion!!
Is it the "no worse than Nixon" defense now?
Pathetic how far the Dems have sunk.
Wright's crime is that he told the truth. Americans run from the truth like cockroaches flee from light.
.
Q U E S T I O N:
Why must a candidate measure up to or be a self proclaimed "Christian" in order to become President of the USA?
1) I thought that there was to be a separation of religion from State?
2) I thought Americans were FREE to practice, OR NOT, ANY Religion each American chooses?
3) I thought Religious tests were unconstitutional?
.
Yes, I recall Graham saying 'the black man' gave 'whitey' the Cancer.
no even close to sense
What's the world come to, black people telling the truth about America. Until we exorcise the racist demons from our past, it will not be possible to move forward. Wish we could have seen a debate about some of thing Reverend Wright brought up.
http://www.actofstate.org
Will any candidate who was ever a Spike Lee or Will Smith (to name but a few) fan for 20+ years have to reject and denounce them because they too believe the govt was behind AIDS?
In fact, the book Jeremiah Wright pointed to by Horowitz, Emerging Viruses, was loosely used used as a basis for the film "I Am Legend" and they bought the rights to it. The book itself is actually in a scene of the movie.
The fact is, those beliefs are majorly prevalent in the US, especially so in the black community, and while that may be a stretch, most all of the other things Rev Wright pointed out were patently true.
when do we get to get after hagee?
i'm wound up like the tasmanian devil and ready to go, as any reasonable, sane, patriotic american ought to be...
Welcome to Armageddon
Actually it's turning out to be pretty childish and low level stuff IMO.
If there is no validity to the aids claim, then the media should investigate. When ever someone starts hurling ad hominems "nut" . . "fruitcake" . . . "wackadoo" . . I just think they're hiding something.
What haven't governments (and churches) done to their own and to others?
PssttCmere @ 1:
Oh, come ON! Jeezus H. Keerist - like it's OK to spout anti-Semetic hypocrisy in private?! At least Wright makes no bones about it . . . he's goddam PROUD to be a fucking whack-job! Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and their ilk merely pretended to be holy, when they actually were/are "wholly" nuts!
To me, the worst thing about it all is the glee with which the bigots refer to Wright as a racist. They just love the idea that racism could come from black people, which means racism must be a person's personal fault rather than an institutional tool of oppression.
Graham was the Founding Father of TeeVee Evangelism. Started out with Circus Tent Revivals.
The one and only "Original Crusader In A Suit"
david blimmo @ 9:
I watched one of Wrights sermons on Youtube, the one where they took the quotes out of context etc.
When a section of society is picked upon and treated like dirt by the establishment, they have every right to be suspicious and angry.
david blimmo @ 9:
Uhhh... pretty much, yeah.
Great Post Man.
Why is he such a "flashpoint for controversy"? Because he is an African American. He is automatically suspect. I don't see Hagee's comments causing a stir. Why? Because he is a white fundamentalist. There has always been a double standard in this country.
If ya' don't have the balls to declare your atheism, at least go with a Buddhist Monk -- they know how to keep quiet.
PssttCmere@1
If I were as ignorant as you appear to be, my life wouldn't seem so complex and I would be happy. Aaahahahahahahahah!!!!
marko @ 7:
Christianity is just one of the three Jewish sects: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three cults are steeped in the same Middle Eastern superstitous nonsense.
All three cults are centered on outrageous lies and are adhered to only by severely mentally ill people. All religious belief is symptomatic of Delusional Thought Disorder. Are there really billions of mentally ill people in the world? You betcha. At most, only 18% of any given population are free of delusional belief systems such as religion. But then, only 5% are capable of meaningful thought. The average IQ is only 100--retarded in my book.
Act of State @ 17:
I found it interesting how the recent research on Drosophila and the genetic and chemical effects on male and female behavior were announced,
guess what, follow the money and the grants come indirectly RW xtian fundies.
Sounds like to me they are pursuing a cure for 'teh gay' in humans.
How bout Falwell, Robertston, and Hagee and their pronouncements about the wrath of God as the reasons for each of the disasters that have befallen our country as well as the other calls from the Fundamentalist pastors of divine retaliation for our failure to embrace their faith. They do not ask for God to damn America but tell us that He already has.
While the assault of the purely tangental continues, NPR finally did a piece on the Pentagon Propaganda machine.
And of course we now know it is not illegal for the Corporate News Machines to be completely untruthful.
The fake news continues to be as vital as the purported real news. Jon Stewart is struggling mightily with this one.
L.A. Confidential @ 20:
ferrofluid @ 21:
Aids from the Government? The Tuskegee Experiment? Small Pox on Blankets? People are scared of the Truth. There's no doubt about that. Even when it is part of the mainstream knowledge. The power of denial and the power of ignorance is going to have to be overcome if we are going to succeed in preventing madmen like Bush and his friends from running this country into the ground. The Enron effect.
Mike @ 3:
i respect agnostics and pragmatic believers over fundamentalist fanatics and dogmatic atheists.
I will not defend Wright even though he didn't say he aggreed with Farakan only that he is listened to by all black people. Even though he didn't accuse the us government of causing aides only that the US government has done some documented awful things like sell nerve gas to Iraq, tusguegee experiment, etc. and that means we are capable of awful things. these things are true. All I can say is that I am so proud that Barack Obama is running for President. He is a man that can suffer more slings and arrows than Hillary, bill. and all the rest. You think Hillary knows how to take a punch? She can't handle shit. What happens when they come looking for her nutjob spiritual advisor past. You notice that no one in Obama's campaign is coming for her? That is because he forbid it. Not like McCain pretended to forbid his campaign from going negative. NOt like the chicken shit way Hillary goes negative acting like it is the Voters who decide to attack him with a bunch of bullshit. He really didn't come after her/ That is one strong motherfucking black man. Reminds me of Jackie Robinson. He takes all the the injuries and gets up and keeps walking. I am more proud of him this week than before. As Doctor Martin Luther King JR. said many years ago. " Lord knows I get tired. When I get criticism from other Negroes lord knows I get tired. But I have faith. I have faith. " This comment post broaght to you by certified stupid white men for Barack Obama for president.
david blimmo @ 27:
and when you take the average as 100, half the population falls below that !!!!!!!!!
Of course IQ is subjective and also a measure of educationa and culture and a bit of brain power.
but still scary and partly explains how we get Chimpy for eight glorious years and a possible fours year of McSenile
scary stuff indeed.
hahaha
Testing 1 2 3
bullfrog @ 32:
Oh boy. The dogmatic atheist canard.
I suppose it's possible that there are people who are utterly certain, merely on faith, that there is no god, and who would be willing to consider no evidence to the contrary. But I am rather agnostic about their existence.
In Britain in one book from long ago, they documented a research project that measured how a bio weapon would travel through a city,
back in the 60s the US gov released a mostly harmless bug which spread and killed a recovering patient at a NY hospital
One of the many nasty things they do in the name of research and gov.
As this article explains well, the double-standard crap happens because black people still get lumped together, but white people are allowed to be individuals:
"hold black people to higher standards"
We're freaking nuts. Thats the bottom line.
Karen @ 37:
Its not faith, its well documented human suffering here on earth, all the empirical evidence points to the fact there is no God or gods.
Pick a shroud waving human subject of misery and say honestly that there is a 'fantasy fairy in the sky' that loves you and enjoys innocent children dying of cancer or other hidious things.
L.A. Confidential @ 40:
and proud of it, proud to be a human being with a conscience and morality, and happy to help others in need.
david blimmo @ 27:
That's some sunshine in your life, there.
I'm an atheist myself but I like to think our civilization is on the cusp of an awakening.
ferrofluid @ 41:
Maybe god is cruel. Maybe god is nuts. Your argument might rule out a good god, but not necessarily any kind of god.
But anyway, my point was to critique the oft-spoken phrase "dogmatic atheist." The current headline-making atheists are not dogmatic.
and not in need of ghosts and fantasy voices in the sky to prod me to be a human being.
ferrofluid @ 42:
I meant the Country.
david blimmo @ 9:
Wrigght's crime is that he is BLACK. That is the only reason this thing with him has any legs. For evidence I show you Hagee and Parsley.
So, when is Youtube going to evolve to Stereo?
I mean mono went out in the 50's already.
Captain Bitter Elitist Hussein Kangaroo @ 47:
And that he's affiliated with a Democratic candidate.
Problem with Obama--too much of a gentle-man. If it was me in his shoes,I'd threaten all the major media with revoking their licenses-for not being fair and balanced.
By the way,in one of Nixon's tapes said--I'm surrounded by sooo many FKN J**s
No wonder Nixon got the swift boot,but Bush is the darling.
Karen @ 44:
If a god was nuts and thriving on pain suffering and misery, what does that say about people who immerse themselves in churches and cults,
and think they are the righteous ones with the right to inflict pain on others.
damn the cults of death to hell (if it exists)
I like the philosophy of the 17th century 'religions' like the Quakers and similar, "please leave god at the door when you enter"
PssttCmere @ 1:
So it's ok to be a hypocritical racist bastard so long as you're two faced about it and do it behind closed doors? What am I saying. The guy is a preacher. LOL!
They are both egomaniacs, but Wright's actions are more a problem now, cause he threatens to sink Obama's candidacy. Also, as a black man, I am concerned that many of my people suffer the "victim's mentality" and as a result, can't move forward. I feel people like Wright feed that attitude and perpetuate it. I hear it all too often in my daily life. Do not defend his crap.
david blimmo @ 27:
marko @ 7:
Mike @ 3:
Goddammit, drive away all the people who believe in the 'magical sky fairy' who might possibly want to be friends, why dontcha?
Sure, religion is a delusion. Atheistic belief systems like Communism work so much fucking better in practice, huh? The Soviet Union was a fucking paradise, right? Red China treats the Tibetans all sweetness and kindness, right? Yes, folks, Red China is atheist. Look how...marvelously sweetness and sunshine and pixies and rainbows the Commies were and the Reds are now.
Hey, buddy, what's your solution to us dumbasses who are evidently too fucking stupid for the likes of you? Eugenics? Breed us out like a good little Nazi would? (I realize full well Nazism and freethought don't go together.)
Let's hear you numbnuts criticize one other faith other than Judeochrislam, eh? Criticize Buddhism's sanctioning of the destruction of humankind, criticize the atrocities that Shinto Imperial Japanese Armies engaged in killing 30 million Asians, criticize the atrocities the pagan Romans and Mexica engaged in.
Yeah, the Bibble is fucked up. Big fucking deal. I could point to the Ramayana as an example of a fucked-up book, or the Tripitaka, but you arrogant motherfuckers probably have no idea what either is.
It's like you types whining about censorship of Darfur and ignoring the cannibalism and slaughter of the Congo!
Arrogance is plenty evident on the Judeochrislamist side. I know our shit stinks. Why don't you criticize Neopagans, for a change....
trails off into incoherent rant
Jeez, General, those "religions" have their extremists too. Jesus was a great guy with some awesome things to say, no doubt. Whether he really took cues from God, well, to each his or her own on that one.
Billy Graham's son, Franklin, is just as bad and he was a spiritual adviser for George W. May still be stirring the shit. Talk about delusions run amok in Iraq. The plan, seriously, was to convert the Moslems to Christianity. Christian material would accompany all aid. These people are certifiably nuts. I'm sure that's where Bush got the Crusade comment just after 9/11. The way Bush has screwed up the Middle East, Christians are becoming an endangered species.
millie wink @ 55:
Personally, the thought that a monotheistic God exists is sometimes hard to believe without accepting some degree of Dystheism. The thought that a perfect monotheistic God would incarnate as a human stretches it even further. What happened when Jesus took a dump? Was it Holy Crap? The idea of the Incarnation into a group of descendants of nomadic goat herders occupied by an imperial power and that this Incarnation's death and Resurrection somehow save both men and women (unless Yehoshua bar Yosef was a herm, ain't no way a male savior can save women) just pushes things well into the abyss so that there's a splat and red goo all over the place.
General_Rennenkampf @ 54:
All religions are equally stupid. There. Problem solved.
millie wink @ 39:
... always the individual if you're Caucasian/Anglo/white... always inextricably linked to the group that has soooo many issues if you're not. Now mind you they are the same issues that afflict every conceivabe American ethnicity (or international ethnic group for that matter), but when dysfunctional behaviors/criminality/ignorance/greed afflict those who look like you, then you have to eradicate it from existence w/in your group before demands parity can be taken seriously. *serious eye roll*
Karen @ 37:
I have to chime in here.
I cannot prove a negative. The term faith means believing things for which you have no proof.
Yet I find no credible evidence that there is one or another god in this universe.
People point this or that ancient text and describe it as coming from this or that deity, written in a language that humans can now understand, sometimes there have been multiple translations. The source was a human language.
These texts were early attempts to describe the origin of the universe and our place in it.
They were the first and the worst attempts.
Nowhere in any of the texts are found descriptions of physical scientific truths we now know and can demonstrate.
If any of these text described nuclear fusion as the power source for the nearest star, our sun, in fact all stars. If any of them made even a close description I would be impressed mightily. I might even think that there was something to the notion that there was more than human minds at work in the writing of these texts.
Nothing of the sort occurs in any of them. If you know of one show it me. Show me a early text that describes nuclear fusion and I will be impressed.
We as a species demand order in our understanding of our universe. We will accept a bad theory instead of no theory.
All of these early texts fall to the scientific method.
bullfrog @ 32:
OK, in all fairness despite that rant, dogma requires two things: 1) a belief in something to support it. Atheism lacks that. 2) A sanction by the state or some political organization to give it more support than just the doctrine/dogma/WTFever has on its own. Atheism fails on both counts.
Which is fortunate.
For all my bringing up of the USSR, the atheism was a tit-for-tat retaliation for what Russian Orthodoxy became under the Tsars. Similar principles applied with East and Southeast Asia. Religion in Russia and China and the other Communist countries was part and parcel of the oppression. It therefore gives the brutality of the atheist revolutionaries a bit of perspective. No less brutal, but understandable.
Two standards for white and black America. Two standards for white and black preachers.
General_Rennenkampf @ 54:
I always try to make it perfectly clear that while I do not respect religious beliefs, I do respect religious people, who have the same rights as I do.
The evils of any of those countries hardly condemns atheism itself. Atheism is not a belief. It's a lack of belief. Nothing follows from a lack of belief. You have to have a belief, typically a dogmatic one, to be able to justify the kind of atrocities committed in those regimes. It's dogma that's the ultimate problem.
One can be an atheist and a humanist. Or an atheist and a mass murderer. Atheism itself does not lead to either.
If you really want a fair comparison of political consequences in terms of belief and disbelief, we need to compare dogma vs. non-dogma. Show me a country or regime that sticks to Jeffersonian or Spinozan principles and who has suffered for it, and I'll be willing to consider that a general lack of faith in society is dangerous.
I know you weren't addressing me, but I have no problem criticizing those faiths as well. As for why Christianity gets the brunt of it on American blogs, I think that's obvious. Christianity is the organized religion whose more crazy adherents have the numbers and audacity to try to integrate their religion with the state, and to enforce it on the rest of us.
Everybody Hates Bush
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/01/poll-bush-most-unpopular...
I wonder if Chris Rock can do the voice over?
Shag @ 53:
Good point and good post, Shag. But you see, Wright's crap has to be defended by Democrats because Obama the Democratic candidate has to be defended. In that sense it's not about the racial struggles of blacks, it's all about the struggles of Democrats running for President. First things first, or so it seems.
Defending Wright and blaming the problem on a MSM conspiracy to take down the black Democrat running for President does nothing positive to improve race relations. But that doesn't seem to matter right now- there's a race to win.
Karen @ 63:
1) Thank you. I currently am unsure just what I believe about a deity, whether one, 4 million, or what have you. Monotheism in the traditional sense is a pretty clear failure in a lot of ways. I tend towards Christendom because I've been raised in it, but polytheism, if you accept deities at all certainly explains suffering better than Christendom.
2) You're right, and much of the brutality of the state atheism came from the personalities of the rulers and the cultures of the peoples involved. Had a state atheist regime arisen in the 1930s in the United States, I think we'dve been less brutal in the long run. Though the Indians would take a lot of crap from a state atheist regime, probably equally if not worse to OTL.
3) Yes, the Christofascists (they certainly are identical to their Muslim brethren in rhetoric, and it's only a matter of time before violence starts to match rhetoric) pose a dangerous threat to the USA. They are certainly more dangerous than whatever "radicals" the Cons designate on the Left.
Billy Graham remains "beloved" only to those who refuse to look at him clearly. He was a groupie for politicians and loved to associate with people who held positions of power. He was no more than a charlatan, a snake oil salesman selling religion to the common people, that's all he was.
Karen @ 63:
But somehow questioning Barack Obama and the rantings of his pastor who he has had a close 20 year relationship with should not be allowed?
Doesn't make sense, Karen. Or at the least, it's inconsistent.
dennis @ 68:
We should question Barack Obama's links with Wright to the same degree we question McPapen's links with Hagee.
Who doesn't hate Billy Graham?
Furthermore, I hate this whole 'well THEY did it too!' attitude.
Even if Billy Graham was a character that always avoided critique (which, again, he isn't), that doesn't negate the well earned criticism against Wright.
General wrote:
What happened when Jesus took a dump? Was it Holy Crap?
Ha! Instant classic, thanks!
And Isome:
when dysfunctional behaviors/criminality/ignorance/greed afflict those who look like you, then you have to eradicate it from existence w/in your group before demands parity can be taken seriously. *serious eye roll*
Perfection again! This thread is a two-fer for me.
Did you say . . . demands parity? Kinda smells like . . . reparations . . . wudda concept! (a good one, I think, in case I'm not being clear)
justabill @ 14:
Its a fact the South African bio labs were working on bio weapons to be used against the black hordes if it came down to crunch time.
British labs like Porton Down and the various US labs all collaborated with SA scientists, in that world theres a revolving door for the science people and their research between them.
The US and the British have a long history of producing and stockpiling chemical and bio weapons, witness the 1000s of tons dumped into the inshore seas after WW2, plus all the modern 'defensive' crap that they still produce or have the potential to make on a moments notice.
Who supplied Saddam and Iraq with their chemical weapons and the precursor chemicals in the 80s ?
Its not far fetched to make a connection between the bio weapons people and the RW fundies that are scared of the non white.
South Africa even produced an atomic bomb and detonated it underseas to the denial of the western governments until it was revealed so.
As soon as they said 'underseas earth quake' off shore alarm bells started ringing.
I have absolutely no idea why Wright should cringe and hide as though his hard work and worthy practice of two decades shames him. Actual spiritual practice that requires real toil, and helps others. The destructiveness of spokespeople of the religious right is not spiritual practice, it is slothful and radical, unchecked except by the fresh ambition of the next guy in line for the job of building wealth and power from ministering over a congregation that forms its basis in demonizing others, even as its elders are found in scandalous humiliations based on complex perversions of serial hypocrisy (not that its any of my business). Its unclear to me why Wright should be beholden to Obama and renounce his own experience. My impression is that Wright has backbone, his words line up, as he answers each question he seems to draw from a coherent whole that gives him wit and confidence. People say he was arrogant: Watching the Press Club footage, I think he showed considerable humility in his humor and manners as he basically attended what was, if not a lynching party, a gathering with an undisguised agenda of ridiculing him, without, as he repeatedly noted, his questioners taking the time to discover him within an easily researched context that made a thoughtful appraisal of anything about the man but the phrases already found to be, ahem, beyond the pale.
to general@54 Steady General Steady, I don't think it's the fact that someone believes in a higher power or a "magical being" as I put it, makes them "crazy", Its when they speak for god or act on gods behalf by trying to make everyone live and believe the way they do that the trouble starts. And the christians are not the only ones by a long shot. Some people believe in vampires, thats ok with me as long as they don't try to make me go out and bite people. Besides I think most real thinking believers are more reasonable in what they believe and have more tolerance for those who believe something else. And we all know their is a nut group in any group of humans willing to push the norm for whatever reason,money,fame,power, looking cool you name it. CEO-----Have a JD& water,my treat
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1960573578763591048&q=ken%20cop...
magical being strike these shitfaces dead, take a peek at this
to be fair, if FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, & Kennedy were as enthusiastic about the audio recording technology of the day as Nixon was, we would certainly have some equally juicy clips to sift through. Everyone was a bigot back then.
and not much has changed.
US Media Green Room sign above their doors
Criticizing America?
**************************WHITE PASTORS ONLY**********************
slippy hussein toad @ 5:
Like a true obamabot you come to the aid of the victim, obama. I just made a simple statement, take it for what it is. You don't have to spin every statement made about anyone into something good for obama. obama is paying dearly for his f-up with Rev. Wright already.
Left&Left @ 26:
Hey chimpy...come back when you can post a coherent comment. I doubt you have that complex a life at the place the short bus drops you off at every day.
dennis @ 67:
Yes... pretending that daily discrimination, on the macro or micro level, doesn't exist is the only thing that will make people like you feel comfortable and thank gawwwd people like Shag are around to help you with your discomfort.
"At most, only 18% of any given population are free of delusional belief systems such as religion. But then, only 5% are capable of meaningful thought. The average IQ is only 100–retarded in my book."
Harsh...but true.
MargeAggedon @ 54:
My post does not advocate it is okay to be a hypocritical racist bastard. If Wright didn't spew from the pulpit, he probably wouldn't have been called out is what I am saying. And, like it or not, racist behavior was tolerated in a larger degree than it appears to be now. But apparently any idiot is allowed to post inane responses, such as yours, without having to comprehend what they are responding to. If you were trying for humor, try again.
bullfrog @ 15:
Max Blumenthal started nearly a year ago with the expose' of Pastor John Hagee's annual Washington-Israel Summit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig
Hagee and McCain are perfect for each other. Neocon scumfucks!!!!
CEO,citizens,eyes,open @ 78:
Ultimately, they all speak through their asses
Isome Hussein @ 83:
I don't pretend at all that discrimination doesn't exist, Isome. I just don't understand why people like you try to blame this screw-up by Obama on racial grounds. He's given us numerous iterations on his relationship with Wright and his separation from his outlandish comments. That has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with his honesty and his judgment. Blaming it on race is just a little too convenient for you, and like Shag says, it does nothing to help the black cause.
Hagee and McCain are two peas in a pod. McCain's gonna deliver The Apocalypse. Hang on and enjoy the ride!!!!
Hey! Graham is white. He gets pass in the good ole bois club!!!
dennis @ 70:
Actually, dennis, you're inferring an inconsistency where there is none. I have been perfectly consistent in explaining my view that Obama's association with Pastor Wright is a legitimate issue. I have said so in many other threads, and I see nothing about what I have written on this one that contradicts that position.
As for my take on how the issue should be handled, it's linked to why I think it's a legitimate issue, namely, because we need to know the influence that Wright has had, and potentially will have, on Obama. How will his association affect his presidency. To that extent, it is a legitimate issue.
Now, think for a moment about the 20-year relationship. This is a man with whom Barack Obama has been friends for two decades. A man who helped bring him to his currently held faith. A man who Barack Obama has witnessed do many, many good things in his community, and who Barack Obama has heard express all sorts of political views with which he disagrees. As Obama said, he has been "like family."
Do you have anyone close to you who just might become a political liability for you should you run for office? Would you have trouble disowning that person because you are close to them, fully confident that you would be your own person once in office? Your relationship with that person would be a legitimate issue to the extent that that person might influence your decisions. If you said to me, yeah, this close confidant of mine has some odd views, but I love him like family, so I can't disown him as a person, but rest assured, I hold the views I tell you I hold, why would I continue to hound you until you broke down and outrightly rejected your friend of two decades? What would I, as a citizen, gain from doing so, but the sadistic pride of knowing that I broke you?
Now compare that to other pastors who have no personal relationship whatsoever with Republican politicians, but who have their ear because of politics. John McCain considered icons of the Religious Right to be "agents of intolerance," until it became politically expedient not to. Once he needed them, he was ready to deal with them. Hagee and the late Falwell are not people whom McCain has known for 20 years; they are not people he witnessed first hand doing good things. They are hateful people who now hold something over him politically. What influence will they have on our foreign policy?
And of the two kinds of relationships, which is really more worrying? A personal confidant whom Obama loves like family despite his kooky views? Or a powerful hate merchant who lusts for Armageddon whose political endorsement McCain seeks purely for help to win the White House?
And what does any of that have to do with my atheism or contempt for faith in general?
No, I've not been inconsistent. Examining Wright's views and their influence on Obama is not an illegitimate issue. Only the manner in which the typically immature and sensationalist media has handled it has made it one.
And it's okay for Rabbis to trash goyim?
Hmmmmmm, Paul Wolfowitz, Joe Liebermann, Donald Rumsfeld, William Kristol, Henry Kissinger.... Hmmmm. Perhaps Billy Graham meant to say Neocon Jews as opposed to Cool Jews that include John Stewart and Bill Mahr and Albert Einstein to name a few.
Well, I'm no fan of American-joos, or any other self-identified hypenated Americans, but Billly Graham whispering that trash into the ear of that imperial Richard Nixon? No patriot he, just a bum. I've been to Billy Graham revivals. Q: How dare he? A: Because he knows he can fool most of the people most of the time. To his pretended Hell with him and his un-American b.s. hate. Ted Haggard, Falwell, Pat Robertson, Baker et ux., Swaggart, Graham et fils, Billy Sunday, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, Elmer Gantry look-a-likes, and it goes on and on and on . . .. They are all bums, every one.
CEO,citizens,eyes,open @ 77
Exactly what I was thinking. The simplistic vitriol that has largely derailed this thread sickens me and thoroughly misses the point.
marko @ 7:
But Pastor Hagee is a REAL CRISTIAN!!!!
He knows that if we killd all the Islams Terrist that JEBUS will RAPTURIFIY US IINTO HEAVEN...
AND WE WON"T HAVE TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE MCCAIN!!!!!!!
We should be very careful to avoid hypocrisy on this issue. It would be all too easy to say, 'yes, Obama associates with and accepts the endorsement of a man who repugnant views, but so do Republicans therefore we're all even'. That Republicans have been associating with the lowest of humanity to appeal to 'faith based voters' for years doesn't mean Obama shouldn't categorically denounce this man's views on race. We have to hold ourselves to higher standards than the Republicans, otherwise what's the point?
Embittered-Max-Hussein-1 @ 10:
dennis @ 88:
Obama didn't "screw up". It's the idiotic MSM and morons like yourself that made this non-issue an issue. Then people like you go on to defend the white racist bigots like Haggee, Farwell, et. al, who's endorsement McCain ACTIVELY sought. And puleeeze don't come back with "Hagee isn't McCain's preacher for 20 years" bullshit. Like that makes any difference. It's purely a double-standard by the right-winged dominated MSM. Pathetic.
Has Graham ever put any anti-Semitic remarks in any of his sermons?
I would suspect his view, albeit erroneous, was that the Jews were way to involved with the Civil Rights movement, stirring unrest.
PssttCmere @ 1:
the fact is that Graham is white and Wright is black. white America is scared to its toes anytime a black person makes any statement of the nature that Wright made but when a white person makes the same type of statement, "it's just one of us and they don't mean what they are saying."
PssttCmere @ 81:
No actually I wanted to make sure that this was put in this proper context. Billy Graham, the kindly old preacher man, tells President Nixon in private that Jews will destroy America.
YOU then try to defuse his words by saying that somehow they weren't valid if Graham didn't make them in public from the pulpit, as if private antisemitism is so much better than public antisemitism.
And quit with the "obama-bot" bullshit already. Is it passe in America to support a political candidate? I often wonder if that's what's really freaking the elite out these days. They were relying on our jaded cynicism. Sorry to FUCKING DISAPPOINT you.
PssttCmere @ 1:
Huh? Bush regularly had Ted Haggard and Jerry Falwell in the WHITE HOUSE. Graham is nothing compared to the statements of these two loonies.
If Wright was a gay hater the media would probably be ok with it.
PssttCmere @ 1:
Denial, plain and simple. Classic racial double standard. It was a "different time" alright...a time I'll bet you'd love to go back to. What bullshit.
I missed the part where Graham was humping the podium in Church.
Rev, Wright is contraversial because he is BLACK. This country has been , is and will continue to be a recist country. Just wait and see what the right and the racists will say about Obama if he wins the primary. Gurantee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have posted about Doug Coe and The Fellowship-Hillary's admitted spriritual advisor and support group on other threads here. Billy Graham is intricately woven into the warp and woof of this Christian Dominionist group whose roots are in Nazi and Fascist principles. Here is an excerpt form Wayne Madsen's article,"Expose':The Christian Mafia,":_________In 1968, Senator Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated after he won California’s Democratic primary by Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian émigré to America. Kennedy was succeeded in the Senate by Charles E. Goodell, appointed by New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller. Goodell was also a core member of the Fellowship.
On January 30, 1969, Vereide, Billy Graham, and newly-inaugurated President Richard Nixon gathered for the Presidential Prayer Breakfast. There is little doubt that Nixon had been tipped off years before by his friend and bankroller Howard Hughes about Vereide’s ties to Pan Am’s Trippe and his bought-and-paid for senator, Brewster. Nevertheless, Nixon, a Quaker, became close to Billy Graham, the North Carolina-born evangelist and one-time student at Bob Jones University who is also the Fellowship’s patron saint. Obviously, Nixon shared the Fellowship’s and Graham’s anti-Semitism.
The Nixon tapes reveal that in 1972, Nixon, Graham, and H.R. Haldeman had a conversation in the Oval Office in which the Jews were targets:
Graham: “This [Jewish] stranglehold has got to be broken or the country’s going down the drain.”
Nixon: “You believe that?”
Graham: “Yes, sir.”
Nixon: “Oh, boy.” So do I. I can’t ever say that but I believe it.”
Graham: “No, but if you get elected a second time, then we might be able to do something.”
---
Graham: “By the way, Hedley Donovan has invited me to have lunch with [the Time Magazine] editors.”
Haldeman: “You better take your Jewish beanie.”
Graham: “Is that right? I don’t know any of them now . . .A lot of Jews are great friends of mine . . .They swarm around me and are friendly with me because they know that I’m friendly with Israel. But they don’t know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.”
Nixon: “You must not let them know.”
The tapes reveal the inconsistencies of the Fellowship. On one hand, their Nazi and Fascist past and tendencies make it seem unlikely that they would be supportive of Israel. Yet, support for Israel is not only something advocated by Graham but also by the shock troops for today’s fundamentalist movement, the so-called “Christian Zionist” wing of the Fellowship.
Although Nixon would later come to distrust the Fellowship, one of his closest confidants, Charles Colson, would become one of the key figures in the group. Colson served time in jail as a result of his involvement in the Watergate scandal. He would later re-emerge “born again” and serve as a covert adviser to the very same elements who would propel George W. Bush into office as President. No longer would the Fellowship have a paranoid, moderate Republican like Nixon or corny, superficially Christians like Reagan or George H. W. Bush in the White House. For the Fellowship, Nixon, Reagan and the first Bush served their purposes but they were not true believers. In their minds, after an unsuccessful coup against Roosevelt and war with their brethren in Germany; the uncooperative and “left leaning” administrations of Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson; a paranoid administration in Nixon; a transitional Gerald Ford; a born again Christian anomaly in Jimmy Carter; partial entrees to power with Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush; and absolute disgust with Bill Clinton, the Fellowship believed it was God’s will that they would have one of their very own core members wielding power in the Oval Office and carrying out God’s (the Fellowship’s) dictates. In George W. Bush, who had been indoctrinated into the total submission to Jesus (the Fellowship) after his involvement with alcohol and drugs, fundamentalists would not only be able to remake the United States but, indeed, the entire world.
Additional tapes indicate that the Internal Revenue Service had Graham under investigation in September 1971. Since Graham was so close to the various Fellowship front activities and foundations, it is likely that the IRS was looking at the illegal mixing of tax-exempt religious groups with political campaigns. When Graham informed Nixon of the IRS probe, Nixon was not happy as the tapes indicate:
Nixon [to Haldeman]: “Please get me the names of the Jews, you know, the big Jewish contributors of the Democrats ... Could we please investigate some of the cocksuckers?...Here IRS is going after Billy Graham tooth and nail. Are they going after Eugene Carson Blake [president of the liberal National Council of Churches]?”
Unlike Graham, the Fellowship would not have any problem with its taxes. A letter from the Department of Finance and Revenue of the District of Columbia to Douglas E. Coe of International Christian Leadership, Inc., dated October 21, 1971, granted the group tax- exempt status on its property located at 2817 Woodland Dr., N.W. Washington, DC. In his request for tax-exempt status, Coe listed some of the activities that took place at Fellowship House. They included a Tuesday morning bi-monthly prayer meeting for Foreign Service wives; a Thursday morning “Mattie Vereide Bible Study” (Mattie was Abraham’s wife); “training and orientation activities,” including “regular sessions with associates from around the world;” “how to run small groups;” “how to set up prayer breakfasts;” “regular dinners involving the leadership of the world."
Billy Graham also supported the war in Vietnam. On April 15, 1969, just a few months after the National Prayer Breakfast, Graham sent a secret letter to Nixon from Bangkok, where the evangelical preacher was meeting Fellowship missionaries from South Vietnam. Graham and the missionaries urged Nixon to step up the bombing of North Vietnam and include in the campaign the bombing of dikes to “overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam.”
The Fellowship’s Very Own Foreign Policy
Perhaps one of the most important aspects of the Fellowship is their involvement in international affairs at the highest levels. Ever since Vereide sent emissaries abroad to further the aims of the Fellowship, the group had sought access at the highest levels of governments abroad. A significant Fellowship presence was established in various English-speaking countries – Britain, Canada, Australia, and South Africa – as well as the Netherlands, Germany, France, India, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, and countries in Scandinavia, Latin America, and Africa. Thanks to the support of two ministers in General Franco’s Fascist Spanish government, Vereide and Coe were able to penetrate Spain and obtain adherents, mostly through the offices of the neo-Fascist Catholic Opus Dei sect. Vereide was also able to convince Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie to be a major supporter of the Fellowship. Chiang Kai-Shek’s Nationalist Chinese government was also a supporter and remains one to this day. Every year, the Fellowship’s C Street Center receives a $10,000 check from the head of Taiwan’s mission in Washington. The Fellowship also established close links to Liberia’s autocratic President William Tubman. Today, Fellowship adherents are even found in the leftist government of Brazil’s President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva. Fijian dictator Sitiveni Rabuka is a Fellowship member. He also overthrew his nation’s democratically-elected government. In Canada, a Fellowship ally, the extreme conservative Stockwell Day of the Canadian Alliance, calls for the establishment of a Christian state. He wants to overturn the Canadian Supreme Court’s decision to legalize gay marriage, wants public funding of private religious schools, and outlaw abortion. Another one of those who the Fellowship counts as a friend is French far-right leader Jean Marie Le Pen. The French leader has created a firestorm of protests in France and elsewhere by claiming the Nazi occupiers of France were not so brutal and that the Nazis were not inhumane. It is the same rhetoric once espoused by Vereide, Buchman, and Gedat.
The Fellowship’s involvement in foreign countries is documented in archived files held at the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College in Illinois. Organized in a manner similar to how the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) stores and segregates files, the Fellowship’s archives consist of 592 boxes of documents, photos, audiotapes, film, and negatives. The documents have an automatic declassification schedule, in the same manner that NARA handles classified files. The Fellowship’s new policy, adopted in 2003, states “All folders with paper records less than twenty-five years old are closed to users until January 1st of the year following the 25th anniversary of the creation of the youngest document in that file, except to those users with the written permission of the President of the Fellowship Foundation. This restriction applies to everyone, including Foundation staff and associates. Example: A folder containing material dated no later 1977 would be open January 1, 2003.”
Left&Left @ 105:
Context does count.
One of the biggest was that Nixon never claimed to be a uniter.
To put it as we so frequently do on the site it's worse when a family-values republican gets caught in a sex scandal than a Democrat whose caught in a sex scandal because he never made sex a political issue.
Interesting thing, context wise, Nixon never sold himself as a uniter but he was elected in 1968 as a Moderate of all things, simply because his opposition was Hubert Humphrey on the Left,with his guaranteed income strategy, and George Wallace on the far right.
108 Renell
Where can one get information on the Fellowship? I've been following the Dominionists but on the Internet you can't be too sure of your source.
But from what I've read so far, they wouldn't even recognize other Christians like Roman Catholics, Mormons, Unitarians, Jehovah Witness, and would actually want to put to death those of use who are Wiccae, abortionists, or gay.
#!!@_ If you type in The Fellowship,or The Family-Wikipedia will provide you with a brief history of the organization,and some excellent links-such as Harper's,the Nation,Mother Jones. This info I posted above is from one of the links-"Christian Mafia",by Wayne Madsen. However, Googling Christian Dominionists will provide many sites,although not specifically dealing with the Fellowship, they are invaluable sources to delineate and define the Protestant theologies being discussed here. BTW, Katherine Yurica has one of the best sites on Dominionism,IMHO.
Sorry,that should have read #111-oops!
(Almost... :) Graham and Wright together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjyB7IOBU34
Politicians always wind up having to distance themselves from religious figures or statements.
This is why we need an atheist president.
113 Renell
Would Dominionists execute anyone who doesn't order their pizzas from Dominoes?
Theirs a good piece in mother jones this month pointing out false numbers in the number of people who do belong and attend a church The real number appears to be off by at least half and a big part of that number are counted 2 or 3 times. The real number of people going to church is 6. ceo
Billy Graham proves his scoutmaster skills by teaching all the scouts how to truly fly a kike and simultaneously proves that a Christian God is a racist bigot.
Now that is serious skills.....pfft!
Johnny2Bad @ 8:
Exactly. Come on, people. What he said is anti-Semitic. Doesn't excuse anything. Wright is a blustering, preening, spotlight-seeker and thrives on controversy for its own sake. Notice at the press club meeting where he directed attacks against the woman who asked the questions, "Did you hear my sermon? Didn't think so!" (Which was followed by the embarrassingly sophmoric applause by the other "reverends" in attendance).
Dale @ 116:
The historical ratio of atheist heads of state to atheist heads of state/mass murdering totalitiarian bastards insures one won't be elected for the next hundred years.
CD @ 121:
Blah, blah, blah... Stalin was an atheist....blah, blah, blah... Hitler was an atheist ... blah, blah, blah... pol pot...blah.
First, Hitler was Catholic. Second, it was not Stalin's atheism that lead him to do the terrible things he did. It was his thirst for power.
Not sure about Pol Pot.
What exactly did Pastor Wright say that was racist or anti-semitic? What statement of his has been shown to be untrue, crazy, or wacky? The statements made against Pastor Wright are generalized, he's characterized, he's painted as being "controversial" but none of his sermons are pin-pointed as being racist. Sure a few statements are taken out of context, but when the entire sermon or even the entire SENTENCE is quoted, any reasonable person must realize that there is nothing racist stated.
Some people will state that Pastor Wright's refusal to denounce Minister Louis Farakhan is proof of Pastor Wright's own anti-semitism. That doesn't make sense, given the fact that Minister Farakhan made his statements 20 years ago, and that Minister Farakhan has repudiated anti-semitism. Of course, when states continue to fly the Confederate flag, when Confederate Memorial Day is a holiday in many states (along with Robert E. Lee Day), when the Sons of the Confederacy are allowed to parade up and down public streets, when those same streets are marked with statutes of Confederate "heroes" that is NOT proof of racism or glorifying slavery and the degradation of Africans. In America, it is only African-Americans who must denounce one another, who must deny our heritage (why can't we be simply Americans instead of hyphenated Americans???), who must always be guilty, never innocent nor forgiven.
As for the supposedly "sophomoric" response at his appearance at the National Press Club, it wasn't the applause or Pastor Wright's response that was "sophomoric"! It was the questions! The young lady who read the questions had the discretionary right to ignore any question that was "sophomoric" but she didn't. Instead, those were the ONLY questions she asked.
One other point: Pastor Wright is unashamedly Black, but never played the victim card. Rather, he stated that African-Americans are different, but NOT deficient. Racists don't want African-Americans to accept themselves as they are, to see themselves in a positive light, because then racists can't spout racist bigotry and blame African-Americans for the problems that racist policymakers (who have been white males mostly to this point) have made.
In all honesty, America is terribly racist and quite ostrich-like with its head in the sand, refusing to acknowledge its history and its reality.
If you are a Death Cult Christian, if you are Rapture Right Christian you are anointed by God for whatever hateful speech you might make because you are saved. Right wing Christians are special whatever they do is because of they're special relationship with God. The Humility of doubt doesn't trouble them because of their special relationship with God. The Bible is all true there is no ambiguity or doubts to be raised. Where is the Love? Where is the caring for the least among us. Self doubt isn't a Christian Virtue Jesus didn't ever doubt, did he?
Am I the only one who remembers Robertson's comment about nuking the State Dept (aka Foggy Bottom)?
Planting a weapon of mass destruction in the nation's capitol isn't radical and America-hating?!? I recall some condemnation from Powell and the State Dept. (of course), but that was it.
Seems like fucked up shit from a black preacher is much worse than fucked up shit from a white preacher. And yes, that's fucked up. I mean, Newt on the Daily Show the other day asks us to imagine that we reverse the races, with Wright being white, saying what he says about black people instead. Com'on Newt: I'll take you to sit in on some sermons in rural North Carolina. Those folks are NOT ostracized. However, how much you wanna bet that if Wright had mentioned nuking a target in the U.S., he would now be down in Guantanamo.
A second issue is the content of the outrageous claims of the Rev. Wright. To justifiable express moral outrage to the comments, one must be sure that the essence of what he says is wrong. That is, it goes beyond a simple "You have your facts wrong" to "How can you say such a thing! The notion is absolutely preposterous."
So, questions for scholars of U.S. history: Does the U.S. have a history of using terrorist tactics and terrorism as part of its foreign and/or domestic policy? Does the U.S. have a history of using biological weapons as part of its foreign and/or domestic policy?
If so, then we have no ground upon which to express moral outrage for any accusations that may emerge from an understanding of this history: All we can do is argue that specific claims are not true, and then judge the evidence as it exists.
dennis @ 88:
Huh? What is this "black cause" you speak of? Did I mention a cause of some kind? You mean a demand for parity? A demand parity is an ongoing 'cause' that is neither helped NOR hurt by calling this situation for exactly what it is.
After all the posts outlining the hypocrisy of guilt by association and the posts explaining that plenty of people take NO exception to what Wright said in or out of the pulpit, you still have the temerity to feign ignorance about and/or mischaracterize the source of people's objections.
Wow... just wow!
Dale @ 122:
Oh how cute you tried to put words in my mouth all by yourself.
I never claimed that Hitler was an atheist.
We know Stalin was one though.
His hate of religion was epic.
CD @ 121:
You whine like a baby whenever somebody says something mean about Christianity, yet are twice as quick to slander atheists. Such a tolerant Christian you are.
Karen @ 91:
I thought this was a fantastic invitation for dennis to share his "concerns" about McCain's indebtedness to Hagee. I wonder why he let the opportunity pass.
Rusty Shackleford @ 128:
I stated fact if you can't deal with it don't bother slinking around here.
As for you atheists I spent enough time trying to defend Christianity then I got tired of trying to make nice with people who want to destroy.
You want to attack Christians fine.
You'll find yourself confronted with the crimes of atheists every time.
And no I don't want to force people to convert.
But if you don't show respect for my ways why should you be given any?
CD @ 130:
Then you must appreciate the fact that, over the past 2,000 years, Christians have been responsible for FAR more human misery than atheists.
Sorry. Fact. If you can't deal with it...
Rusty Shackleford @ 133:
And you must appreciate the fact that, over the past 2,000 years, Theists have been responsible for FAR more good than atheists.
I saw that clip on Jon Stewart - I need to put this out somewhere on the net.
Stewart is comparing:
A recording from one of the Nixon tapes, which were done clandestinely - Graham wouldn't have known he was being taped - in which Graham privately reveals his fear of a Jewish conspiracy to Nixon. Maybe he hopes Nixon will do something about it or watch out? We don't know - we don't hear any action Graham requested that Nixon act on. One tape, one instance.
VS.
A 20 year career of sermons, some of which were recorded, which consistently and publicly claimed wild conspiracy theories, ridiculed of white people (that's called racism too by the way), and suggested that everyone including God should hate America.
There you have it - let's conflate one bad thought with an entire career spent advocating hatred and divisiveness (and yes, I did see the Moyers interview). OK. I've seen this technique used elsewhere...hmm...oh yeah, it's the way the media tries to be 'fair' and equate Democrats and Republicans all the time.
CD @ 134:
I don't think you guys have even broken even, but believe what you like.
So let me get this right. Christians are complete (fill in the expletive) for believing in God, and listening to people like Reverend Graham, but it is totally OK for Barack to believe in God and listen to Reverend Wright. Just wondering.
I am left center liberal and am a regular here at C & L , sorry but comparing Wright to Graham is about as assinine as it gets . Graham is nothing like the Hagee , Falwell , Hinn or Robertson freaks ( in my humble opinion ) either for that matter . Believer or non believer or agnostic like me , regardless of your politics ,this is one guy genuine , down to earth and not a lunatic.
Liz @ 135:
whites have been ridiculed black from the beginning of this country and you got the nerve to imply that whites are not racism! ROTFL By the way, how many of the sermon over the past 20 years have you heard Wright preach? None I bet. So you subscribe as long as what you say is not going to be know it alright to spout hatred and racism? What a christian theory.
Rev. Wright was RIGHT!
This nation needs to take a good honest look at itself and then ask the question: would Jesus, whom we so adore, approve of our behavior, past and current?
The honest answer would of course be, no.
Because of our actions the rest of the world are no longer interested in the American brand of anything - we have become what we despise, a pariah among nations.
Wild conspiracy theories, indeed. The AIDS/HIV virus was probably generated in the secrets laboratories of this nation in its pursuit of the most devastating of germs. Now I'll add my own theory, just like the neutron bomb was supposed to kill people but leave buildings standing, so too was the AIDS/HIV virus designed to selectively destroy humans by latching on to characteristics of the target group. Could be that the Joseph Mengeles of this nation found a way to target certain deseases toward groups of people they could not identify with. It could also be that the deciphered genetic codes of all human groups yielded sufficient information to make the test trial of a black-man killer to be introduced into Africa. It is not so far fetched, after all, didn't the Europeans generously provided the indegenous Indians with blankets, laced in small-pox? Didn't the US government allow the experimentation with the course of the syphillis virus in, specifically, black men?
The only thing far fetched about this is the reaction from a lot of white people about Rev. Wright's statement. Why is it so hard for some white Americans to empathize with other groups, after all, we're all from a common root.
bullfrog @ 33:
Atheists are not dogmatic, unless you define Atheism incorrectly or encounter someone's opinion outside the bounds of Atheism. Also, no one is an Agnostic. It is not a middle position between Atheism and Theism. You either have a deity belief, or you don't. If you can't say you believe in one of the thousands of invisible sky pixies, then you are by definition an Atheist. You could possibly call yourself an Agnostic Atheist or an Agnostic Theist, but then your just a whining coward who is afraid of what others might think.
justabill @ 14:
Well, silly me. I thought it was based on the Richard Matheson book "I Am Legend." Oh, wait, I forgot. It IS based on Matheson's book. Third movie based on the book, which is a sci-fi classic. Horowitz's book is interesting, but he's a latecomer to this party - Matheson's fiction predates him by some 40 years.
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