FOXNews Sunday: Dean Calls FNC "Shockingly Biased"
By Nicole Belle Saturday May 03, 2008 12:10pm
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I've said it before: Democrats need to stay the hell off FOX. Not because we should be afraid of their questions, but because it legitimizes a clear and overt propaganda unit of the RNC. And frankly, when Democrats do stay off FOX, it gets under their craw, and forces them to do WATB tactics like the Obama Clock. And that worked well for Democrats until just recently, and then both Democratic presidential contenders appeared on FOXNews Sunday. Now it is DNC chairman Howard Dean's turn to try to contextualize host Chris Wallace's crowing that Democrats are now appearing on FNS. The problem is that he just didn't do it strong enough.
Dean: No, I think it was the right thing to do (boycott Fox debates and appearances) because there are some things in the news department that really have been shockingly biased. And I think that’s wrong. And I’ll just say so right up front, but it is important also for us to not…we shouldn’t punish the viewers of FOX by staying away. Now those viewers have had an opportunity to look at the debates on other channels, now they're going to have an opportunity viewing on this channel and I think that's fair.
Are you kidding me? The network that aired the "Dean Scream" ad nauseam should be given a place in the Democratic primary race?
Wouldn't it have been better if Dean had been tougher when he decided to go ahead and appear on FOX and said something to the effect of "the Republicans have done such a poor job of managing this country that their party is falling apart, and we wanted to go to the one network that we know caters to conservatives and try to get some truth on this network, so that the voters understand that conservative politics--such as FOX News advocates constantly--are not in their best interest. So I'll give FOX a chance to show that 'fair and balanced' is more than a catchy phrase to fool their viewers."?
Transcripts below the fold
Wallace: Governor, not to say that we’ve been counting, but it has been nineteen months since you’ve appeared here or on any FOX program. How do you explain the fact that in less than a week—and we’re very happy to have you—Governor Dean and Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have all shown up on FOX?
Dean: Well, first of all, your audience is important to us. There’s…a lot of your audience are working class Democrats, the kind of people who will vote either way and we’d like them to vote Democrat. And second of all, you gave us a fair opportunity to talk about Sen. McCain’s record. The truth is, is if ordinary people in this country knew what Sen. McCain believed about the economy and about Iraq, they wouldn’t support him. And that’s one of the reasons the Republicans have put such a big fuss about our ads. It’s because those ads really move independent voters. Sen. McCain is an honorable person, he served this country with great honor during the war, but Sen. McCain is not the right person to lead America into the future…
Wallace: Governor, again, I’m going to bring you back. We give you plenty of time to bash McCain. The left wing of your party is in a snit, over all these Democrats appearing on FOX. In fact, the head of MoveOn.org had this to say about Democrats on Fox: “It legitimizes a right-wing network that is going to use that celebrity to smear them—the Democrats--in the general election.” He and the head of the DailyKos are using words about you guys showing up here as “weak”, “idiotic”, “stupid”, how do you respond to the left wing?
Dean: What I say is this: we stayed off FOX for a long time because your news department is in fact biased. But Chris, you haven’t been. We’ve always…you’ve always been tough, but I always thought fair and I still think that’s true. And we need to communicate with people who are going to vote in the Democratic Party. Hundreds of thousands of Republicans have turned their back on their own party to vote in the Democrat primaries in the last six months. We owe it to all the American people to reach out to those folks. So this is not about FOXNews, that’s not why I’m here today. I’m out because I want to talk to your viewers directly about why this election is important and what we can offer the American people.
Wallace: And let me ask you, and obviously it’s always about the millions of people who watch these shows. Looking back, do you think it was a mistake for the Democratic party to boycott FOX debates and all the other programs during the last year, and thereby boycott getting your message out to the millions of people who watch?
Dean: No, I think it was the right thing to do because there are some things in the news department that really have been shockingly biased. And I think that’s wrong. And I’ll just say so right up front, but it is important also for us to not…we shouldn’t punish the viewers of FOX by staying away. Now those viewers have had an opportunity to look at the debates on other channels, now they're going to have an opportunity viewing on this channel and I think that's fair.
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Republicans appear on MSNBC which is very pro democratic. The democrats look like total wimps for not appearing on Fox. You know the coverage on FOX is going to be biased but it is by far the largest cable network in terms of viewership and its really weak for the democrats to write it off.
Brian @ 1:
Stop drinking the kool-aid Brian. MSNBC pro-democratic my ass!
Yes, if Democrats go on FUX News, they should come armed with instances of bias, and go on the attack. Absolutely. It'll even work with the FUX News viewers who like strong personalities who stand up for themselves. (As Bill Clinton said, Americans prefer strong and wrong to weak, but right.)
When Bill Clinton looked Wallace the Lesser in the eye, and told him off, he emerged the victor despite media's attempts to brand him as having inappropriately lost his temper.
Why aren't the Democrats doing so now? If I had to guess, I would say that the calculation is that, with Indiana and North Carolina coming up -- two very red states -- now is the time to capitulate a bit, and show those FUX watchers that they don't write them off as unimportant. To attack at this particular time can only make FUX angry early, and risk a push back now instead of later.
Whether the calculation is smart is debatable. I just hope that if any Democrat goes on FUX News during the general election, s/he is in hyper attack mode.
Wright '08=Dean scream '04
Now that MSNBC is WORSE THAN FOX, why shouldn't the candidates go on Fox. The propaganda for Obama on MSNBC is ridiculous. The O'Reilly's interview with Clinton was super.
Obama's turn!
Brian @ 1:
Republicans think that anything that is not explicitly for them is biased against them.
Only to people who buy what FUX sells them. To a lot of people, they look like wimps for being bullied into appearing on FUX News.
Its ratings are declining, thanks in part to a growing sense that it's not real news. When Democrats learn simply to say, "It's not real news," and move on, that sense will grow.
Brian @ 1:
Where on MSNBC are they "pro-Democratic" , exactly , besides Olbermann and Rachel Maddow , who is a guest on various shows ?
Floridiot @ 4:
If it's not Wright, it'll be something else.
This just in:
NewsWeek
With friends like these who needs Republicans?
Karen @ 3:
Really ?
How many Americans prefer Chimpy's idiotic (and illegal) invasion and occupation of Iraq now ?
It is beyond time that the American public learns that actions based upon stupid decisions has critical consequences ....................
"Wallace: Governor, again, I’m going to bring you back. We give you plenty of time to bash McCain. The left wing of your party is in a snit, over all these Democrats appearing on FOX. In fact, the head of MoveOn.org had this to say about Democrats on Fox: “It legitimizes a right-wing network that is going to use that celebrity to smear them—the Democrats–in the general election.” He and the head of the DailyKos are using words about you guys showing up here as “weak”, “idiotic”, “stupid”, how do you respond to the left wing?"
I love the tone.Wallace(a "newsman")characterizes Dean's criticism of McCain as bashing.The Leftwing of the party is in a "snit".Of course these are Wallace's biased opinions.In the very next paragraph Dean pronounced FNC biased but quickly assures Wallace that he is not.Well no,Howard.He IS biased.Utterly.Biased.
At any rate,why is any of this news worthy?
Is Dean on FOX to be interviewed or to be interrogated?
Dean should have turned things around by asking Wallace how he "responds" to the charges of being a right wing "smear" out fit.FOX has sooooooooo much to answer for,yet THEY are demanding answers like this?
MCMetal @ 10:
Just so, and I'm deeply disappointed in Dean. He's really screwed up by the fukin' numbers with his toadying to Barry the Ignorant over MI and FLA and now this.
Just another loss to the Dead Loser Caucus.
Get ready for McSame....
Then maybe, maybe, the rank and file Dem Caucus will wake up to the fact they are being 'led' by wankers, idiots and fools.
hood @ 2:
MSNBC. Yes, that's the network that has run at least 8 times so far according to my count since Friday, Dan Ambrams' "Special Report" on Obama and Rev. Wright.
MCMetal @ 10:
I'm referring to campaign ethos, not post hoc analysis of actual decisions.
Yes, the vast, vast majority hate the war.
Does that majority match the majority by which either Obama or Clinton will beat McCain -- or would even beat Bush were he eligible to run again? Nope. People will still vote for the candidate with their preferred ethos, policies and consequences be damned.
Brian @ 1:
Chris Matthews has claimed herr dubyah is Lincoln-like and said herr dubyah should be on Mount Rushmore. Chris Matthews said the only people that do not like herr dubyah are the far left crazies. Chris Matthews said America likes war and AMericans like this war and women like this president. He said women like a president with some swagger and who is simple. Yeah.....that's a lot of Democratic propaganda.
A.Citizen @ 12:
Stop it! Stop injecting the bickering between the two Democrats' camps into every friggen thread! Dean biased for Obama. MSNBC biased for Obama. Clinton getting a pass for bas behavior. Stop it already! It's making C&L a very unpleasant place to be.
Why not just boycott the entire U.S. Corporate "News" Media for that matter? And if the old guard still offends...
No matter what FOX News says, we Americans will always remember GWB as this.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/9961300/the_worst_preside...
Kieth Olberman is pro Democratic Party but i am hard pressed to name anyone else.
Any help?
Should Republicans post on C&L?
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 19:
Moyer? Maher?
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 19:
Nope! Every once in awhile I got the feeling Schuster might lean slightly left but since he got his ass whooped by Clinton he is very neutral.
For a cable show, Fox draws lots of viewers. They vote. If you go on a military base, tv's are EVERYWHERE, even in the commissary. And they are almost all tuned to Fox. If we want to win an election, we have to put forth a candidate who can win not just Joe- intellectual who follows the news, but Joe- average who watches American idol.
Most Americans don't even have a clue who McCain is. We'd better have a candidate on Fox letting them know the other side of McCain.
Another liberal media lie....
No link.
More liberal lies.
Elite media feeding lies
♠Bangkok-Bob♠ @ 21:
Moyer is PBS and a hero of mine. But he had to come out of retirement to fight the bullshit he sees in the Corporate Media. Maher is a Republican.
JTM @ 20:
If they can do so without using numerous expletives and Lies they are free to voice opinions anywhere. But they mostly just come on here to Flame and Troll for emotional responses.
Speaking of MSNBC, I wish they would take David Gregory off the air. The man can hardly sit in his chair when smashing Dems. How did he get from dancing with the Prez to being talking head.
It was Hillary Clinton that showed the spine to go on and talk to the millions of Americans that watch Fox News.
There is your real unity.
JTM @ 20:
Of course they should, but i would prefer it if they would stick around and have a serious argument rather than arguing in circles as so many of them have in the past.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 25:
♠Bangkok-Bob♠ @ 26:
That wasn't my question.
My question wasn't whether C&L should allow them to post here.
My question was whether it would be in their interest to do so.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 29:
So do you agree or disagree with the idea that Democrats shouldn't go on Fox?
Most suprising in this encounter was that Wallace didn't come to the defense of his own network against the the charge that the network's news department is totally biased. I'm sure Wallace will pay for his negligence. Forgo the limo for two weeks?
The reason Clinton went on Fox was because the shockingly Obama bias with Obama hacks like Jack Cafferty and Keith Olberman.
That is the real story.
right arm, Howard!!!!!!!!!!!!
getalife @ 28:
Uh, unity is forgetting all about the total and unrelenting way Fox News, Richard Mellon Scaife, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and numerous other mouth pieces tried to destroy you completely? IF Clinton is elected let's just see how good Fox news and the above mentioned treat Hillary. Ya think they are going to be all embracing in a General Election?
♠Bangkok-Bob♠ @ 30:
I watch him. He comes down squarely on the side of killing people in other countries as long as they are terror suspects. If that is the position of the Democratic Party i may have to end my short tenure. There are other things he says that can't possibly be construed as Democratic. Sometimes i have to leave the room.
Aquarius2 - Gregory at least looks at both Democratic candidates to show their strengths and weaknesses. If you want a love-fest for your candidate, just watch Olbermann.
getalife @ 28:
What unity? She only proved once again that is in a far, far reich-winger. Faux is a well established propaganda arm of the reich-wing, and Hill gladly used the tool. SHe's only distancing herself from the Democratic Party. congrats.
jmac @ 38:
I do LOL
Yes, Hillary is taking on Fox and Scaife and everyone else out there. And she's winning them over. People have respect for you when you have a spine and look the bully in the eye.
JTM @ 32:
Oh, i really don't have a serious opinion about that issue. In many ways i would like to see Fox curl up and die, on the other hand i think for free speech and democracy to work everybody should be able to have his or her say. Fox has done it's best to drown out any opinions but it's own. If anything i think it should be mandated by law (it once was, they called it the fairness doctrine) that all opposing views be aired.
Aquarius2 - You can laugh out loud and watch your propaganda, and that makes you no better than Fox.
Get it?
jmac @ 23:
OK, that's cool.
My question was mostly for Nicole and anyone who agrees with her on this.
JTM @ 20:
Yeah
To add unintended zaniness , hilarity and never-ending stupidity on an infinite level , to the proceedings..........
JTM @ 45:
Just for once i wanted to give a non combative answer. :)
jmac @ 43:
Propaganda?? I guess it depends on your point of view, yours is not obviously mine, so who has the propaganda, you or me?
jmac @ 41:
They'd have even more respect for you if you made the right decision(s) the 1st time around ; Hillary doesn't have that.....................
The shockingly Obama bias on CNN and MSNBC back fired and Fox took advantage of it.
I thought you folks wanted unity. It is Obama's message.
MCMetal @ 46:
But...
We have you. :)
(Ok, granted it is not unintended). :)
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 47:
Take two aspirin and get some rest. I'm sure you'll be back to you normal self tomorrow. :0
JTM @ 32:
If C&L had a policy of editing Republicans' posts here in order to distort their opinions, asking them loaded questions in order to unfairly trap them into something whenever they tried to post here, or generally used their comments unfairly on the front page, and if, simply by posting here, Republicans would increase the already unfair legitimacy of C&L.......I'd say, hell no! They'd have nothing to gain from posting here!
But your analogy doesn't hold up.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 51:
Oops, scratch the "stupidity" part and it is closer to what i intended to say.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 51:
And we have you to keep showing your limitations are indeed limitless.............
jmac @ 23:
yes, they will vote republican no matter what. those are the 30% that still thinks junior bush can do no wrong. I am in the military,and I can tell you that fox news got no effect on me. If we want to win an election,we need to stop our little hillary/obama little war and start attacking bomb bomb mc cain. those fox news viewers still think that there are links between Saddam ,al qaeda and 9-11.The democrats need to stay away from foxnews,so far we have been doing good without going on rupert murddock right wing propaganda machine.Those ill-informed fox news viewers will not vote for a democrat even if baby jesus asks them to. Democrats should stay away from fox. They are irrelevant to us.
Karen @ 53:
There is that. On Fox every Republican caught in a sex scandal is magically transformed into a Democrat. "Osama" seems to be running for President according to Fox. This is an "error" they have made on several occasions without appology.
MCMetal @ 55:
I was just joking with you, don't take offense. You are well spoken and often funny.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 58:
When did I say I was offended ?
First of all Fox is not a news station. They even said so. They are propaganda spin for the right. They are a strange mixture of holier than thou!!! Blah,Blah, Blah. But if that is what you like watch it.Me I don't watch corporate media. I rely on the internet. you can research any thing.
getalife @ 34:
yes yes fox news is fair and well balanced. There was no such thing as a vast right wing conspiracy against bill. richard mellon scaife didn't use his money to trash the clintons. If hillary went on fox because she thinks fox news is fair and balanced that makes hillary a liar.She lied about mellon scaife.
jmac @ 41:
Winning them over? They're laughing that they are able to use Hillary to destroy the Dem party's chances for success. Hillary has been fooled into thinking she is the now a bonafide member of the popular clique, instead of a dupe to be dumped when she has served her purpose of tearing down the Dem party.
Fuck fox news. Only Bush supporters watch it, and those idiots aren't going to vote for the Democrat anyway!
Brian @ 1:
Thanks for that ignorant-trash perspective, schmuck. Ya gonna tell me there's been no msm coverage of Reverend Wright and Obama and Dems look like wimps for refusing to jab sticks in their eyes now, too, little factually-challenged fella?
You shrub-shills pull this delusional-dreck shtick all the time. You operate from the same factually-challenged, bogus premise that the msm has a liberal bias giving you loons license to spew specious slop with no supporting evidence to "even it up" with an endless stream of specious slop about the NYT, WAPO, CNN and the rest of the sclm. No sale, shmendrik. Talk about assuming facts not in evidence.
Apart from the Judy Miller malarkey, the NYT carries David Brooks. WAPO carries Novak and Krauthammer. Who are the "liberal" columnists regularly carried by the Wash Times, NYPost and WSJ-Ed? Who is the "liberal" host on Faux to counter the lunatic-fringe likes of Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs on CNN and the late, unlamented "Tucker" on MSNBC?
That's what I thought.
Clearly, there is a market for wing-nut nonsense and gop-slop spewing scum like Limbaugh, Hannity and Billo to tell the Tennessee Taliban what they want to hear. That doesn't make it legit journalism any more than it makes it fair and balanced.
There is nothing legitimate about fixed news. There never was. There never will be. To paraphrase the Judge upon tossing the ludicrous billo/murdo nuisance suit against Al Franken a few years back, it is wholly without merit, factually, legally and journalistically.
Pretending that there was and the continuing failure is of the msm to do due diligence and their jobs is why we're in this fix in the first place.
Dismissed. Go cheney yourself.
Tony @ 63:
If that were true, then there'd be no reason to worry about Fox.
But it isn't.
Has anyone ever posted something even neutral about shrub and been allowed to post a follow up? Same here.
JTM @ 65:
Who is "worried" about FAUX Gnus ?
The Dems stated their individual cases on that imbecilic propoganda network ; now , let the (buffalo) chips fall where they may (hopefully on Roger Ailes' empty , bald coconut)
getalife @ 28:
Spine? Wrong part of the anatomy, or didn't you get the Clinton memo? It's about testicles, not spine. Get with it.
Dean is wrong. The candidates AND those who represent the defeat-o-crats should stay off Faux News.
NOT ONE of them should be appearing the the channel of re-PIG-lic propoganda.
*
Has anyone ever posted something even neutral about shrub on the lunatic-fringe likes of Powerline or Freeperville and been allowed to post a follow up? Same here.
Coop @ 66:
If you're "neutral" about the worst president and administration in US history , you're either in a coma or are already dead.................
Coop @ 70:
Even minor dissent and/or criticism of the horseshit Chimpy administration is not allowed on GOP sites..............
JTM @ 65:
It's true and that's the reason why Dems need to stay away from fox news..We don't need fox to get the message out. Why wasting time trying to convert hardcore ignorant bushies. THEY WILL NOT VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT NO MATTER WHAT. Going on fox news is a waste of time for any democrat.
Karen @ 8:
It IS something else. People have fallen for the Karl Rove/Clinton propaganda about Obama, and are now being led like sheep to vote for Hillary or McCain----BOTH Republican candidates. Once more the media has aided in forcing people to vote for who the media wants.
MCMetal @ 72:
True for the most part. Very sad.
And worse is that they use our willingness to listen to opposing views against us. They'll yell flip-flop at every opportunity, or scream about how they just "won" the argument merely for acknowledging that they have a point (which they consider to be a weakness).
As Sam Harris notes, when your enemy has no scruples, your own become a weapon in his arsenal.
ConcernedCanuck @ 74:
Yeah, well, Obama is still winning anyway so far.
Can we please keep the bickering between the Obama and Clinton camps to more-than-tangentially-relevant threads?
I DO think that Walleyed's the closest thing the re-PIG-lic propaganda machine has to a bona fide turd. The suit and tie can't disguise it and the smirk confirms it.
*
Oh, Dean, you stupid twat...
"we shouldn’t punish the viewers of FOX by staying away."
While I realize that many Fox News viewers are too stupid to work the channel changer, this sounds like your talking out of your mouth and your ass at the same time. If you truly believe that Wallace is "tough but fair" (LOL!!!!!!!!!), then hold him accountable for utilizing his journalistic cred for such a shoddy organization.
Karen @ 75:
True strength is not expressed through viciousness nor merely screaming stupid shit.
Regardless of any Fat Fuck Limpballs fan claiming his 'popularity' based upon Nielsen ratings numbers , there are still way more Americans that do not listen to someone like that stupid fat bag of shit , than do listen to his nonsense...............
Being stubborn and stupid (as Chimpy truly is) , reveals an insecure and feeble mind ; and everyone has been witness to the sorry ramifications of someone like that in power.
Dean--"FNC is shockingly biased."
Fux anchor--"Don't tell anyone"...
Karen @ 76:
Even if he wins, he loses as he will get John Kerry'd in the general. It's obvious now. He is NOT who the Dems and Repubs want, and they always get what they want. This has nothing to do with Clinton vs. Obama fight. Fact, any candidate as far behind as Clinton was a month ago, would have been forced out long ago. Now look. Rebounding like the comeback kid in some hollyweird movie. Way too convenient.
ben @ 73:
So please explain why Fox's viewer percents are higher than Bush's approval ratings.
You might not want them to, but some people who are open to voting for a Democrat do watch Fox. Sometimes it's because they are sitting in an airport; sometimes it's by choice. Running away from this will not help you to get what you want.
I agree with Ben and Karen. We need to stop the Clinton/Obama war.
Obama needs to do the right thing and drop out! The spin has already started. Even the Dallas Morning News had a blurb on the front page of today's Sunday paper relating to an inside article that says Obama should do the right thing and withdraw.
When the spin is on the other foot, how are Obama supporters on this blog going to handle it. I think they should fight until the convention - my view hasn't changed even when the spin goes the other direction.
ConcernedCanuck @ 81:
Two weeks is an eternity in politics. We have no idea what the issues of October and November are going to be. Republican moves will manage to gobsmack us. They always do.
And it will be this way no matter whom we nominate. Obama is going to get Swiftboated if he's the nominee. Clinton is going to get Swiftboated is she's the nominee. It's that simple.
What matters is how either responds, and the kind of campaign s/he runs against Gone InSane.
Clinton hasn't rebounded from an insurmountable deficit, if we take into consideration the rules about the necessary majority of delegates to win the nomination. After Iowa (but a mere four months ago), the media said she was toast, and that Obama had everything wrapped up. The media ate crow after New Hampshire, but continues to have the audacity to talk authoritatively about who's up, who's down, and what will happen next. They don't get anything right.
I don't think either of the candidates will have a majority of delegates heading into the convention. And then it'll be up to the superdelegates. I just hope they declare prior to the convention in order to push their preferred candidate over the top.
Full disclosure: I prefer Obama to Clinton, and wish Clinton would drop out. I think it would be better for the party if she did so.
JTM @ 82:
Clinging to stupid policies and incompetents from the horseshit GOP party might get you what you want , but it's usually a terrible idea based upon a false foundation/premise.
You can get the answer you want by feeding false information into a computer , too ; it's just not the correct answer..............
Karen @ 84:
Karen, if you noticed, my work forced me to take a time out from posting on here for awhile. It didn't stop me from seeing/hearing the media spins. It didn't stop me from watching someone who was losing, to suddenly be in a virtual tie with the leader, and then poll-wise surpass him. Why? Well, from everything she's said and done, it isn't her great oral skills, or any new public policies that did it. It was the media, and the two political parties that did it. After watching this gruelling 18 year long election fiasco from afar, it is turning out just as I thought right from the beginning. Regardless of circumstance, Hillary WILL BE the Dem nominee, even if someone has to be politically assassinated in order for that to happen. And it is happening. November will see McCain vs. McHillary. Two Repubs for the price of 10.
Karen, Clinton isn't the Republican candidate. You have on blinders. Obama is center right - Republican health care complete with insurance ads, Reagan economics advisors, Republican talking points (many, but one is SS in crisis), two advisors who have said publicly not to listen to what he says on foreign policy, he'll look at vouchers, he's open to talking with creationists.
The truth is we don't have a clue where he stands, but we have lots of hints. His 100 present votes in the Illinois Senate - big hints.
Dead video - mas youtube.
jmac @ 87:
Hillary's Iraq resolution vote (as well as her Kyl-Liberman vote) , along with her statement of basically destroying any and all Middle East country(s) that threaten or messes with Israel , are just as revealing and even more indicative of where she stands...........
The media isn't making Clinton the nominee. Obama had wonderful press for over a year. When he got hit with Wright and then got hit in a debate (after 20 where Clinton was skewered), he folded.
You can shout MSM and Fox all you want, but Obama is responsible for the turn in this campaign.
jmac @ 87:
Guess that means you are in deeper shit than you thought if you think Obama is Republican as well. THAT means, it doesn't matter who wins in November, a Republican gets elected. Hillary IS Repub. McCain IS Repub. IF you believe Obama is Repub, that makes it three for three........so........who you voting for?
Hillary suggestion a solution in the Middle East - a NATO-like nation of Arab countries to help keep Iran in order. Who in the heck would not be for that? THEN if Iran acts up, yes we WILL be able to hit them with help from a coalition of Arab countries AND Israel.
My gosh, an actual plan. Trying to find a solution for the problem of Iran and nuclear weapons.
Concerned Canuck - I'm voting for the center-left candidate - Hillary.
Just like most of America - I'm center.
jmac @ 90:
If Obama is "responsible" for it , why doesn't the MSM give equal coverage to the even more heinous things that imbeciles like Hagee spew ?
And remember ; Wright is a Vietnam Vet and Obama has been a member of that church for over 2 decades.
McShitstain actively SOUGHT OUT skid mark Hagee's endorsement............
jmac @ 93:
Nice to let everyone know you're a fence-sitter ; and that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever what Ms Clinton is.
Ms Clinton is about as "center-left" as the NY Yankees' right fielder playing position is.............
jmac @ 93:
You think Hillary is center-left? Hahahahahahaha.......um.......ok......seen her voting record? Heard her speeches? Center-left? Um no. Republican Lite.
jmac @ 87:
Did I say she was? Or are you using my forthright "full disclosure" against me, even as I call for the bickering between the Obama and Clinton camps to be kept to a dull roar for the sake of the party? Sheesh. Can't say anything these days without one side or the other attacking you.
Oh, go blow a rodeo clown. This is what makes these threads so unpleasant.
Well, my candidates were eliminated long ago. I didn't like either Clinton or Obama from the get go.
I still manage to support the party, though that's getting harder and harder these days. It used to be because of the way the leaders behaved. Now we can add to the mix how the people of the party are behaving.
BTW
The "most of America" that is "center" are a bunch of morons ; how else do you explain Chimpy being in the White House for over 7 + years ?
jmac @ 92:
Ya, we all heard her solution......if Iran just happens to be tricked into even putting their fingers on their gun triggers because of US interference in Iran's business, Hillary has suggested that she will "nuke 'em off the planet".......ah yes.....real "center left" policy there.
MCMetal @ 98:
Most of America is not "center." Most of America holds progressive views. But they call themselves "conservative" when asked to label themselves. When asked about specific issues, most Americans take progressive stances on issues like health care, welfare, Social Security, etc. But when pointed out that their overall politics is progressive, they react a lot like customers taking the Pepsi Challenge. They're astonished to find out they don't prefer Coke, and still purchase Coke at the store.
jmac @ 92:
When the fuck and why doesn't anyone hold Israel accountable when they act up ?
And how come no one mentions all the nukes they possess ?
When has Israel ever behaved honorably recently ?
jmac @ 83:
Right now you sound just like one of the hardcore bushies. You are living in your own little world where facts don't matter. Here you are saying that obama needs to drop out when the math shows that he is trailing behind. What's wrong with you people and your rovian ways ?
Karen @ 100:
Then they vote like morons ; it is the only way one can explain the worst president and administration currently occupying the White House , being allowed to remain there for 2 terms..........
Do not go on FOX propaganda News period.
Just boycott. Every Democrate. No exceptions.
That is the only way to keep them talking to just themselves and to expose that they are just an arm of the the Bush regime.
MCMetal @ 103:
It is moronic, in a sense. They vote on ethos. They vote on the personal vibe they get from a candidate. Policies, issue stances, 10-point plans don't matter to them. They want to hear a good story, and they want to feel they can trust the human who's asking for their votes. They want to feel like s/he's "one of them."
That's why Republicans are so good at getting elected. They study this. They create narratives, and have their narratives echoed in the media. Everything they say that borders on policy really just advances that narrative. At the least, it fits with it, and reinforces it. When Democrats offer nothing but nuanced arguments and detailed policy, all the Republicans have to say in response is, "Democrat X is a bad person. S/he isn't like you, and doesn't like you."
And they win.
getalife @ 34:
Cafferty is an obama hack? He's a republican !
jmac @ 87:
Obama didn't vote for the iraqi invasion-- hillary did so did mc cain......obama didn't say that he's gonna bomb bomd Iran--mc cain did so did hillary.....so now how can hillary be center left and obama a right wing lunatic? I think karl rove would be proud of you .
ben @ 107:
Don't try to educate a Clinton supporter about Obama or vice versa.
All three of them are corporate whores. Am I just getting old or is America finished?
as soon as this election cycle is over, dean needs to be replaced
he sounds like an idiot
fox still is not "balanced" wallace is still a fucktard
what, fox viewers only watch fox?
god, the dem party is run by absolute morons
Fox news,Fox news,Fox news. I wish they'd just STFU. It's a fact they're biased. It's not shockingly. I hate the fact that any democrat appears on fixed news. This is an organization that spends 24/7 bashing democrats,and I'm sure that appearances by Hillary or Obama,or anyone else from the dems boosts their ratings,and I don't think they should do that . O'Reilly considers himself a God (not that he didn't already) because he got Hillary to appear on his show,and I'd be pretty pissed off if Obama went on his stupid lame- assed show, ever. O'blow-me has done nothing but rip on Rev. Wright and Obama for about 6 weeks straight,and if Obama doesn't know this,well.....
jmac @ 83:
So let me get this straight, the guy with the most delegates and most primaries won should drop out because... the right wing is spinning things against him? That makes perfect sense.
I guess you must be shocked that the GOP is saying unflattering things about the front Dem runner. NO SHIT SHERLOCK
The Dude @ 111:
I think I'll jump in and defend jmac on this one.
I could be wrong, but I think he was being facetious when s/he called for Obama to drop out. The paragraph was presented as an example of how Clinton has been treated in the campaign by Obama's supporters.
His ultimate point was that neither candidate should be calling for the other to drop out, and that the bickering should stop.
At least, that's how it read to me.
108 crazylikeafox
Corporate whore is about as good a label as the Establishment or the Man, which is not very good at all.
Until we get only public financing in all elections we're going to have corporate and PAC involvement.
Think of it this way, there's a difference between General Motors and a corporations specializing in alternative fuel research and production.
crazylikeafox @ 108:
Both are probably true. I'm glad I'm old too. (52...is that old?) I personally don't want to see how this cluserfuck ends. Hillary-McCain, the same.
getalife @ 28:
This is the same Hillary that said during the debates she wouldn't meet with the heads of states from several nations.
So, either she was pandering when she went on Fox, or she really isn't as strong as suggested.
Why is it that Chris Wallace looks like Mr. Spock on a bender?
crazylikeafox @ 108:
It really does seem they all have the same platform/agenda. (Well, certainly Hillary/Obama.) Based on his rhetoric, I see Obama as misguided but still able to be rehabilitated. McCain and Hillary seem to be well beyond the point of no return.
ysbaddaden @ 116:
Good catch, but you've got to remember the close genetic ties of Vulcans and Romulans if you bring this up again.
BTW, I do a wicked impression of My Three Sons' Uncle Charlie (William Demarest):
"Ernie Douglas, ya rat bastard.....YER ADOPTED!"
Andy K Jong Il @ 118:
Fixed.
ysbaddaden @ 116:
I was thinking he kinda looks like this guy:
http://fruitfly.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/huckleberry.gif
Why Dean "respects" this rube is beyond me.
One of the two Democratic candidates has a Democratic health care plan.
And it's not the one that's Republican light.
After Tuesday, the MSM might pick up on the 'Obama needs to step aside and do the right thing for the party'. Yelling he has the most pledged delegates isn't going to matter - the process was never about who has the most pledged delegates.
If you don't like the political process, join the party and change it. We can all agree the caucus system has to go.
Thats why i'm writing in Kucinich. ANY democrat that goes on FOX is a stealth republican. They go on knowing full well it legitimises FOX. They dems that go on are COOPERATING with the republicans. Working hand in glove with them. It allows FOX to say 'see, even the DEMS know how important we are'. Let me ask this, who in the hell that watches FOX is going to vote DEM? NOT ONE DAMNED VIEWER, thats who. The DEMS should NEVER go on FOX. Dems on FOX are like Jews going on a program being hosted by the SS. Any that would ain't really DEMS......
I didn't watch. "Shockingly biased," you naughty boy. Shame on you. Now here's some candy: go out and play.
1 Brian Says: Republicans appear on MSNBC which is very pro democratic. The democrats look like total wimps for not appearing on Fox. You know the coverage on FOX is going to be biased but it is by far the largest cable network in terms of viewership and its really weak for the democrats to write it off.
=======================
Thanks for your concern. Your argument is a bit weak, but thanks for showing up.
20 JTM Says: Should Republicans post on C&L?
==========================
Anyone can. All you need is an e-mail address. They even let Canadians post. Should they? Why not? I don't see anywhere you declare your party affiliation on the site. Do you?
32 JTM Says: xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 29:
JTM @ 20:
Should Republicans post on C&L?
Of course they should, but i would prefer it if they would stick around and have a serious argument rather than arguing in circles as so many of them have in the past.
So do you agree or disagree with the idea that Democrats shouldn’t go on Fox?
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Now I see where you're headed Mr. Fancypants (tricky-dicky). No one is obligated to appear on Fox. It depends how low down you want to go. Should politicians feel obligated to appear on "Deal no Deal"? NO. But, some go on by choice, anyway.
28 getalife Says: It was Hillary Clinton that showed the spine to go on and talk to the millions of Americans that watch Fox News.
There is your real unity.
===================
Are you talkling about the appearance where she said, "God bless rich people"? That oughta unify the nation.
45 JTM Says: OK, that’s cool.
My question was mostly for Nicole and anyone who agrees with her on this.
========================
The crux of the matter, at last. I agree with Nicole. If I were a candidate, I would not appear on Fox. I would not lend credence to their pseudo-news-network. It would be accepting them as one of "the gang", undifferentiated from the rest. (Which is almost true in 2008, but... ) **Appearing there would be a tacit endorsement of their news coverage, which I find extremely lacking (dishonest). But that is my opinion. You're entitled to yours.
100 Karen Says: MCMetal @ 98:
BTW
The “most of America” that is “center” are a bunch of morons ; how else do you explain Chimpy being in the White House for over 7 + years ?
Most of America is not “center.” Most of America holds progressive views. But they call themselves “conservative” when asked to label themselves. When asked about specific issues, most Americans take progressive stances on issues like health care, welfare, Social Security, etc. But when pointed out that their overall politics is progressive, they react a lot like customers taking the Pepsi Challenge. They’re astonished to find out they don’t prefer Coke, and still purchase Coke at the store.
===================================
Very good point. I behave like a good little conservative in social settings. I believe in proper etiquette and good manners, and dressing (at least somewhat) appropriately for the occasion. I like to mind my own business and not force all of my opinions on others. But in my mind, and behind closed doors, and amongst freinds, I am anything but conservative. Anarchy now baby. Who's rollin' the next one?
Any Democrat appearing on Faux News should carry the following items: 1) Dramamine (for nausea), 2) Barf Bags (again for nausea) and 3) a fully-charged Taser (for any Faux News pundit who might start yelling "Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!" at them).
I thought that the good Doctor did a great job of kicking Wallace's ass around the studio. Also for fwacbar who plans on writting in Kucinich. I see you didn't learn from your vote for Nader.
BTW, anyone notice that Walleye Wallace said there would be plenty of time to bash McCain, but never let Dean get back to it?
Fox TV gets way too much credit- its basically just visual whipped cream on a talk radio turd pie of lies and distortions. until Americans figure out the source of the dumbing down of the media is that uncontested repetition to 50-70MIL that only the talk radio monopoly can provide, progressives will continue to play politics without a front line.
it doesn't matter what wright or obama says- until talk radio is demonopolized or obama supporters start picketing and boycotting the sponsors of the local talk radio stations that give a coordinated pack of liars the biggest soapboxes in the country this bushit will continue.
progressive candidates and causes will continue to get whacked with an invisible 2x4 while media and political analysts wait for the reading and viewing material that attributes the effects of rove's most important framing tool to political and social shifts instead of coordinated blowhards using the biggest soapboxes in every state.
talk radio does the groundwork repetition for this kind of swiftboating and sets the flavor of the rest for the media. real democracy based on an informed electorate and bipartisanship is impossible without some kind of Fairness Doctrine or demonopolization for talk radio.
Chris Wallace reminds me of some puppet (maybe a muppet?), but I can't remember which one.
Maybe as a first step this website should stop showing so much Fox broadcasting. (Perhaps more PBS or other well thought out news sources).
fwacbar @ 122:
Please........stop with the inaccurate generalizations!
Yes, FUXS News is propaganda, the sad fact is that many people only watch this crap and if they see or hear someone like Howard Dean or Obama/Clinton and like what they hear they might watch them onm another network not nearly as biased as FUX is, and then they might do what anyone with more than three brain cells is going to do, and vote Democrat.
Dean knows this, his "southern strategy" shows he knows what hes doing and its working.
Howard Dean is right, once again, and the more I hear from him, the more I'm impressed
getalife @ 50:
Dude, at least you're consistent...consistently stupid. Getalobotomy, you just throw baseless, factless, Anti-Obama shit everywhere and then hide in the closet like a bitch when you get called out on it. You're sorry, tiresome, message NEVER changes. Just like Marge, Dennis, Bluesage, etc., no matter what Obama does he's an empty suited racist Muslim who hates white people and America. Trust me fool, you're not winning anyone over with your right wing trolling bullshit. Just stick to porn, because I'm sure NO woman (or other) wants to hear your lonely dumbshit.
Dean handled it in the right way. He hit all the talking points cited in your "What if" without sounding shrill, which we all know he can't afford, nor can the Democrats. To do as you've suggested would be to give the Fox machine and its half-brained viewers exactly what they want and would otherwise expect.
Dean didn't miss a beat. Every response perfect. If every democrat presented themselves this way I would welcome them to go on fox "news" and let REASON seep into that cesspool.
That's why I like Howard Dean, and why I supported him in 2004. He's one of the very few Democrats with balls.
me @ 140:
Absolutely.
Mr. Dean the best person for President is Senator Hillary Clinton. I am from Minnesota. Our state with this silly system had ONE hour to select a candidate from this Caucus system. We could not even get in to the facility, we had to wait out side in the sub zero weather. So Caucus in my mind do not count and should be a separate issue. PRIMARIES only. If everyone in America has to file taxes on April 15 then the whole country should be allowed to select who they chose for president on one particular day. It certainly would cut out all media pundits.I feel left out of this election as do many of my friends. I am in Independent voter. Count Florida and Michigan.Go Hillary.
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