Churches to put their tax status on the line for the GOP?
By Steve Benen Friday May 09, 2008 8:30pmFederal tax law, as it relates to tax-exempt religious ministries, is pretty clear — houses of worship may not legally intervene in political campaigns, either in support of or opposition to a candidate or a party. Those who violate the law run the risk of losing their tax-exempt status. With some regularity, the IRS reminds houses of worship about this, warning them about the dangers of ignoring the law.
A far-right group in Arizona, however, has an idea: conservative churches should ignore the law — and in the process, test the law — on purpose.
A conservative legal-advocacy group is enlisting ministers to use their pulpits to preach about election candidates this September, defying a tax law that bars churches from engaging in politics.
Alliance Defense Fund, a Scottsdale, Ariz., nonprofit, is hoping at least one sermon will prompt the Internal Revenue Service to investigate, sparking a court battle that could get the tax provision declared unconstitutional.
Those ministers the ADF are targeting need to think long and hard about this, because they're playing a game they're going to lose here.
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Tax the houses of intolerance, bigotry and superstition!
Dammit, Puritanism's supposed to be dead! Who played George Romero with them?
Gah! Out, you heathen heretics! Get out of Christianity, cuz whatever you fuckers practice, it ain't my Christianity. Dammit, now to get elected Pope by the College of Cardinals and restart the Inquistion (only half-joking...)
Isn't this was Bush's faith program has been leading to all along.
As I've said for years, if you took away the Tax-Exempt Status of churches you would see less and less of them, since most are just fronts for more nefarious doings.
They seem pretty sure of themselves.
I say TAX THE CHURCH! I never understood the reasoning behind NOT taxing them. Whenever you make loopholes that loophole will get filled with some slimy type trying to swindle people.
IIRC Bill Maher favored taxing churches, and I have to agree...
Cons won't bother their base. They send the IRS after people like Willy Nelson and Snipes.
I'm with Bob. Tax the churches. I'd love to know the negative impact they have on our economy right now. I wish someone would do a study. Tax the hell out of them. Call it an ignorance tax.
How do we know that they will lose if the churches challenge the law? It seems lately that when civil liberties plaintiffs challenge something, they lose (e.g. NYPD bag searches on subways were ruled not to violate the 4th amendment), and when right-wing groups challenge the constitution, they have a fair shot at winning (overturning elections, mandating voter ID, etc.). This will be interesting.
I'm with Bill Maher. Charge them all property taxes.
Oh god PLEASE let them do this. Even Scalia will stick it to 'em in this one.
If you subsidize it, you get more of it.
Scy @ 9:
you can only hope.
the gop churches have been involved in politics for several yrs
now. what's new for them, except to up their anti .
dadams @ 11:
Well, to be fair, are you dumb enough to believe the Reverend in front of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson's name means nothing? Those ministers have been involved in politics for years, both of them even ran for office. If we silence the Religious Right, so do we need to silence their Religious Left counterparts before the RR points to the RL as an example of hypocrisy.
Did I ever tell you how much I hate Republicans? Let's turn this around. What would happen if a liberal church organization did or said this?
This makes me very bitter.
Somebody has a lot of faith in the judicial system, and it's not the ministers.
General_Rennenkampf @ 12:
Can you say Pat Robertson?
Where have you guys been the last 7 years?
If this goes to court, they will win, I have no doubt.
It wouldn't make any difference to them. They'd figure out ways to get it all written off and show no profit. If they couldn't do that, then their campaign contributions guarantee that the law will change for them if it needs too.
This is Pretty Interesting Reading, for those of you who wonder what goes on in the big tents. Matt Taibbi (Writer for the Rolling Stone) Goes underground to see how they indoctrinate the flock.
Take a few minutes and read it. Then tell me they shouldn't be Taxed.
The difference here is that they are, from the pulpit on Sunday as part of the service, going to say "God is telling you to vote for "x" and we are endorsing "x" as a Church". Of course Churches are almost there as it is. But it's kind of like prostitution (and I apologizer to hookers everywhere for the analogy) . . . you can do it if it isn't "in your face". If it's in your face, the government will do something about it.
Tax the Churches, what a racket!
General_Rennenkampf @ 2:
Easy now General. The Magisterium is watching. You're gonna need some armored bears if you don't watch out.
General_Rennenkampf @ 12:
There is a difference between what Reverends do in their political lives and what they do in Church. Last time I checked, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson still have to pay taxes whereas Churches do not. That is the reason why Huckabee can run for president as long as the Church doesn't give sermons supporting his politcal causes. The problem isn't that religious leaders, such as Pat Robertson, are speaking in support to Republican candidates, but they are bringing political slants to Churches making them political organizations.
And we are not trying to "silence" them; we are simply trying to get them to follow the law.
As much as I love to discuss this topic, it's early morning here and I need to go to breakfast.
Have a pleasant day all you Democrats ... (the GOP can go get screwed and have a miserable day.)
Haven't the southern churches already been endorsing from the pulpit for the last two presidential elections? I thought there was plenty of evidence that they were routinely telling their congragations to vote for Bush.
If one doesn't respect in the slightest the seperation of Church and state one deserves to suffer the consequences.
And this is comming from a follower of Christ.
crazylikeafox @ 24:
Chris H. @ 22:
Fair enough, I was just clarifying. Personally, I think the Church and politics mix about as well as Oil and Holy Water ;). I'd like to see the Church understand that we Christians have no business injecting our faith into the political realm. You'd think 2,000 years of horror resulting from the Church in politics would have taught us something....
crazylikeafox @ 24:
Yeah, they have been. For example: voter guides, which intentionally promote inaccuracies about the opposition.
If a church wants to support a candidate they could give up their tax-exempt status.
Yep, just think about all the taxes lost from taxing fish fries, chicken boxes, and crab feasts.
Houses of worship should talk about what the hell they want to talk about.
Another aspect of this, is that the churches and ADF are only requesting exemption for churches to engage in partisan politics, as opposed to other nonprofits with the same tax status.
The Churches will pull this off. With this Administration's "BLESSING".
tHeGaMeOfAHusseinSavedMyLiFe @ 27:
Correction
no bush justice department will charge them with anything, so this is moot until there's a new preznit.
Chris H. @ 22:
VERY well said.
Granting tax exemptions to churches shifts the burden to other people, which results in school boards laying off teachers and cutting programs because the beautiful megachurch pays no property tax on their entertainment complex. This could easily backfire and cost ALL churches their tax exempt status, except for the facilities and employees who do nothing BUT humanitarian work. If not only the White House but Congress see a democratic blowout, even the SCOTUS might decide to stay with the Jefersonian wall between church and state, because impeachment sullies your legacy.
The Religeous Right should take a hint from Obama's aquaintance Ayers; "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing." "Your old world is rapidly aging. Get out of the new if you can't lend a hand; for The Times, They Are a'Changing."
This law (and, more generally, the Constitution) isn't mentioned in the bible, therefore they don't have to do nuthin. Seriously, a lot of church-folk (especially the flat-earthers in the south) believe this to be absolute indisputable fact. Their imaginary friend told them so, and you can't prove otherwise!
Captain Bitter Elitist Hussein Kangaroo @ 13:
I believe one did in California.... and the IRS audited the shit out of them
chris [not the troll] @ 35:
Your right Chris, it's hard to argue with an insane person who wears the tin-foil hat of Religion.
IF YOU WANT TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE.....
MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOU ALWAYS REFER TO JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN
WITH INCLUDING HIS MIDDLE NAME....
........THE CHURCH HATES IT... HIS HANDLERS HATE IT.... THEY DONT WANT THE PARTY AND THE CANDIDATE IN THE SAME SENTENCE......... NOTICE HOW MCCAIN (THE REPUBLICAN) NEVER WEARS HIS PARTY LIKE THE LAPEL PIN THEY ARE.
May 10, KC Star reported that Archbishop Naumann has publicly called upon Governor Sebelius to stop taking communion because she supports abortion. Archbishop Naumann's inability to differentiate support for safe abortions being legal, under certain conditions, from support for abortion itself, is unbelievable in the context of a tradition which counted angels on the head of a pin. Surely his political bullying disqualifies his organization from tax exempt status. God knows we need the money.
I almost hope they play that game so they lose, and we can end this charade of allowing churches to be totally exempt from taxation. It's beyond obvious there's little church at church anymore, and it has much more to do with the politics of death (i.e. your place in the afterlife is more guaranteed if you fall into line) than the politics of reality and keeping the country from spiraling into the toilet hole that has been every other religious political venture in human history.
Ick. Death-cults centering around human sacrifice creep me out. Imagine their politics is obscene, too.
Dan@7 said it best. Regarding churches......
"Tax the hell out of them."
I like that....might make a bumper sticker out of that one. Check my site later if interested.
Echoing Dhalgren's comment above, I don't have a whole lot of faith that this won't go through. Eight years ago I would never have believed it would happen, but then again, I also didn't think we'd be spying on citizens and torturing people our eight years ago.
If Bush wills it, it will pass.
Can't we do the world a favor and outlaw all churches? More people have been tortured and murdered in "the name of God" than by all the non-religious wars and all the crime in history combined! It wasn't all that long ago they killed anyone who said the world wasn't flat because God told them it was flat. So according to the organized religions America can't exist...so GET OUT! :D
The question is why haven't the IRS already gone after them? Seems to me the ADF aren't afraid of the IRS. They have bigger fish to fry aka church/state. That would be the defacto result of a favorable ruling for them. If they can even more brazenly step into the realm of politics what would keep the head of a church from being President?
To me this is a huge multi sided story. The "armies of compassion" that require accepting christ as your savior for prison programs is a piss poor use of my taxes. Last year I was horrified to hear on NPR that there are complete land developments that are completely tax free because they are run by the church! How many thousands of people live in these places and don't even pay property tax! I say tax them. If they wanna ride let'em pay the ticket like everybody else. LOL . I just channeled George Carlin. Book any stand up?
some of these "houses of God" are nothing more than mansions for those that have seen an easy way to get the uneducated to give them money these guys make me sick asking for donations from those that can spare it the least tax them religion like insurance is a racket
POdVet @ 44:
Yeah, repeat the Soviet mistake. Send the religious people to the work-camps, execute the priests and close the churches and use them for warehouses. I, Comrade Molotov say it is a pleasure to meet you, Comrade Ulyanov. Shall we go kill some Christians now?
^You're basically asking for that again. And you're wrong. The combined death toll from Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, the North Vietnamese, the Laotian Communist Party, the Warsaw Pact states, and all that far exceeds what Christianity did over 2,000 years. Now, if other religions like say, Shinto, are added, religion quickly catches up. I believe the Japanese State Shinto was responsible for what, 30 million deaths? Add in Hitler, you get about 47 million. Keep the Communist death toll from all regimes and its over 100 million.
Even including Hitler, European Christianity has no had the death-toll to match the Soviet Union and the People's Republic. Or do you think Communism is a happy fun land where nobody died?
"Let's not bicker and argue about Who killed Who." - King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Nationalism (or tribalism, if you prefer) is simply the replacement of God. Instead of worshipping a Deity, you're worshipping the State, with all that that implies. But it must be admitted that when you hitch a nation to both you'd better hang on tight 'cuz it's going to be a Juggernaut, crushing everything in their path until someone mercifully puts a bullet in their heads.
I speak metaphorically, of course. :-)
As Mark Twain once said in 1897:
" If Christ were here now, there is one thing He would not be - A Christian!"
Tax the heaven out of them.
The IRS doesn't go after conservative churches--just those that preach tolerance and liberalism. Didn't this group get the memo? Careful what you wish for, though. The goof troupe we currently have in the Supreme Court doesn't inspire much confidence. If this issue does go all the way to the Supremes, this group would most likely win with the support of the sanctimonious and overtly religious members of the court.
The law exempted churches from paying any taxes,because they generate no income and are strictly for worshiping.
But in the last 20 years or so, these churches began to behave differently and deviate from their orginal goals and puropses.
Now they are challenging the authority of IRS, by continuing to mix religion and politcs.
The law is clear..These people cannot have it both ways..on one hand they don't pay any share of any taxes,yet they want to act as a political party and stick their noses in how our government runs its business in local and foreign affairs, and on how our legal system should work and who should be selected as a judge,and who shouldn't .
IRS is right in stopping them now,before they grow more in power and start dictating to us how we should run our government before it is too late.
We should not subject our laws to the influence of these religious extremists,or we will suffer big time just like Europe did in previous centuries.
I wish " we the people" would tax ALL church's right out of existence!Our world would be light years ahead of where we are now!
General_Rennenkampf @ 12:
Yes. Tax them all!
They can still preach, and contribute to the government they want to influence. Whats the big deal? If they can afford to give millions to GOP scum sociopath's, then they can afford to pay taxes!!!
Yes, indeedie, tax all churches. They are just businesses catering to suckers anyway.
Christianity is all about making divisions between people. There are thousands of different sects and denomination who identify themselves as Christians. New divisions are created whenever some people decide that everybody in the congregation has to believe a certain thing or be ostracized. Now, our churches are telling us that we need to vote for Republicans or be ostracized.
So be it. I left my church as a result.
One more paleo-conservative Supreme Court Justice and they will make it legal for churches to openly support (conservative) candidates while remaining tax exempt.
When's Cheney's "deferred" taxes on his Halliburton income going to be collected?
His income should be topping $1 billion dollars at this point.
no they are testing this law just like bush did with all his illegal activities. they probably their conservative court will overturn this ban. They figure mccain will win in the fall, a few justices will retire, and by the time the case reaches the court, these new justices will be in to allow this violation of a basic principle of our gov't.
Many evangelical leaders have been preaching politics for the past 20 years and urging their affiliated churches to follow their lead to get the word out to all the people. Do you think that when one of these mega-church preaching, televangelicizing, money seeking snake oil salesmen makes a media comment that he is endorsing "X" he doesn't have at least several hundred thousand blind sheep following suit? They don't even HAVE to do it from the pulpit anymore. One interview, several emails to affiliates and the deal is done. Of course the pulpit has been used frequently and you can certainly tell a congregation how to vote without ever mentioning a political party or candidate by name. That is done all the time. The only thing this group is going to do is cross the line and mention that party and name.
I wonder if the timing of this has anything to do with the evangelical manifesto that was released this week, which is supposedly a move to get 'leftist' evangelicals a greater voice? This seems like something the 'right' would make as a counter-move. All are seriously wrong. There is a separation of church and state for a very good reason and it is time to stop sneaking around that wall.
As a Christian I do not want the government in my church. That means my church has to stay out of the government. After what the evangelicals have done with their manifesto, I've never been prouder of the fact that they kicked my church out....
The Treasury department just violated The Constitution. What did congress do about the violation of their power? Nothing.
Be careful what you wish for...
I used to live near that Grace For-Profit Church in Houston. It occupies about 40 acres of prime commercial real estate on I-45. I would love to see them pay taxes on that land. I'm sure the Houston Mayor Bill White could find something useful to do with a couple million dollars.
These churches are betting on being able to persuade enough of their members to vote Republican that they won't be investigated in a serious way.
This has been going on for years. Didn't you wonder why Bush & Co. didn't make gay marriage and abortion BIG issues in '04? They didn't have to. The conservative ministers were doing it for him from the pulpits on Sunday. I am sure Karl Rove gave the marching orders.
In Norway something small - like 2% of the population - is religious (actually believes and practices their faith). Many recent studies suggest that the main reason for Norway's high Atheism rate is their state-sponsorship of religion. Apparently, get the government involved in religious matters (through regulations), and they will even screw that up to the point of turning people off from their religion.
To some degree, I wonder if our separation of church and state keeps us full of people clinging to their invisible sky daddy? Not that I wish to change it, but it is an interesting consideration that the least religious countries generally have a government-managed state religion. Hmmm...
Brad @ 41:
The ritualistic cannibalism called communion is high on the yuck factor too.
General_Rennenkampf @ 47:
So, if I understand you logic, then we can discount the atrocities of religion because the commies were bad people?
Well, with Uncle Thomas Robert Scalito on the SC, the law will most likely be overturned.
wolfgang @ 66:
Either/Or logic. We can have religion OR Communism. How 'bout religion AND Communism. . . or better yet. . . neither religion NOR Communism.
wolfgang @ 66:
The world would probably have been better off without Torquemada, Hitler, and Stalin.
Don't discount the atrocities of religion, but don't forget that religion is not unique in producing atrocities.
Those right wing churches have nothing to worry about. Only liberal churches lose their tax exemption.
As loathe as I am to enter a church of my own accord, I am considering joining (albiet temporarily) a local church simply to record the sermons, view the literature, and help nail them if they decide to use the pulpit to preach politics. I know for a fact it is common practice here in mid-Michigan. I've had religious friends confide in me some of the craziest shit which came straight from the preachers mouth, and personally, it sickens me.
Time for some good old fashioned citizen oversight.
So the pastor who turned my wife's grandfather's funeral into a screed against secularism WASN'T talking about politics?
Could have fooled me.
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