Oliver North, Fox News' Appeasing & Emboldening Revisionistorian
By Bill W. Sunday May 18, 2008 8:30am
After lauding Oliver North for his new book that apparently has more pictures than it does pages (No doubt North's picture-book tells a much different story than the truth-laid-bare photos and accounts from an award-winning unembedded photojournalist like Dahr Jamail, but I digress), Sean Hannity asks North for his opinion on whether the President was right to compare the want to hold diplomatic talks with Iran to the appeasement of Nazis in the 1930’s.
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Oliver North: As you know, I’m the history guy at Fox News Channel, right? I’ve done this WWII series – 52 of our episodes about WWII. Had it not been for Chamberlain going to sit down with Adolf Hitler and try to cut a deal in Munich, WWII might never have happened, but it emboldened the dictator. That’s what the President said yesterday in Jerusalem. And a little reminder today, a shot across the bow here at the NRA, when John McCain got up and said, 'You cannot have these kinds of unconditional, no preconditions discussions, with despots and dictators' - dead on the mark.
For someone who was lucky not to have spent the better part of the last two decades making license plates, he's got some nerve touching this topic. This is the guy who oversaw the arms for hostages deal with Iran in 1985 (among other crimes), right in the middle of the Iran-Iraq war in which the US was actively and openly arming and supporting Saddam Hussein. Ollie North didn't just talk with Iran at a time they were our enemy in a proxy-war, he actually helped to arm them, bypassing Congress by violating the Boland Amendment to help fund an illegal war in Nicaragua.
Lacking even a shred of credibility, Fox News' "history guy" is to the truth in the historical record what Dick Cheney is to gun safety. He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the subject, and anyone who believes a word of what he says about it is a fool.
Negotiation is not appeasement and there are zero parallels between simply opening up a diplomatic dialogue with Iran and the capitulation to Adolf Hitler in the Munich Agreement. It's a ridiculous assertion, especially considering that the Bush administration itself has negotiated with Libya and North Korea, yet Iran's previous offers to put everything, including its nuclear program, on the table and peacefully negotiate have been completely ignored even after Iran had been an important ally of the coalition against al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Oliver North, just like John McCain and other conservatives, don't even have a clue what they are talking about. Apparently no one in this administration ever thought to ask Bush's own Sec. of Defense, Neville Chamberlain Robert Gates, for his opinion:
We need to figure out a way to develop some leverage with respect to the Iranians and then sit down and talk with them. If there's going to be a discussion, then they need something, too. We can't go to a discussion and be completely the demander with them not feeling that they need anything from us.
Exactly.
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Clearly there is power in ignorance.
Diplomacy should always precede bellicosity, and continue until hostilities are resolved at peace talks.
For every diplomatic failure there are untold numbers of successes.
Hitler was either fanatical or he wasn't. If he was there was no stopping him except by force, so talking resolutions couldn't have caused the war, only delay it.
Rethugs try to have it too many ways.
And as for boosh making his comments about a possible next president in Israel, how does that make him any better than the Dixie Chicks?
When your "history guy" is qualified because he hosted a series and then must resort to "what-if" scenarios to discuss history, it is high-time for a new "history guy."
Oliver North is a prime example of the double standards in right-wing world..
The man aided and supported terrorists- He lied to Congress- Yet he's a hero?
Funny how Repugs still harp on Bill Clinton for lying about a blowjob to Congress and they still grit their teeth with rage at Clinton's having lied about his relationship with Monica- Yet they have no problems with Oliver North having to lied to Congress about his own support of terrorism. They think he's a friggin hero!
Lying about a blowjob or supporting terrorist- which is worse? Hmmmmm
Where the hell are the priorities to the wingnuts??
Sometimes we forget that guy has a mugshot...and its not for a petty crime either.
Meanwhile, Olbermann is reeaaallly getting under FakeNew's and their superstar's skin:
http://tinyurl.com/5he6m8
Not to mention:
That is pure bullshit.
This is just Disgusting the way Republicants always try to rewrite history. Ollie North is/was one of the most corrupt members of the Reagan administration. Although it doesn't surprise me that (ins)Hannity would give him a pass on this and that of course it would be on Fux Snooze. Hopefully he like Kevin james will be called out on this on the other networks. but I doubt it. Wow. Am I actually first?
Nah, guess not.
And this is yet another reason why in the eyes of the rest of the world, the US has very little credibility left when we claim to be the world's beacon of liberty, freedom and justice...
when criminals become commentators, we become an audience to our own crime.
If anyone has "emboldened" the terrorists, it's Ollie, Reagan, and Bush
Monstrously good post! The Conservatives speak to themselves in a closed, historical and logical vacuum. Thanks for bringing cleansing daylight to their moldy delusions.
As gomer would say "surprise, surprise." What else is a criminal going to say about a so-called new conglomerate that supports his cause?
That's the problem: if you want to convict someone in the United States for any sophisticated crime (i.e. no mere gang related murder or drug possession) you need to send them to an international court. White Collar crimes go grievously unprosecuted here.
So many things wrong with what Herr North said...
where to begin?
First, Munich did not have a "no-conditions" deal to begin with! Hitler was given the Sudetenland on the condition that war would have been avoided. Second, WWII would have come regardless of Munich, simply because Hitler was nothing but an expansionist bastard that sooner or later would have pushed the Allies into war. Third, the Nazi regime was, by 1938 well into the planning stage of the Endoslung. It was also a Great Power industrially, and had already begun gobbling up other nations. Matter of fact, I believe it had engulfed Austria the second time it tried, and that it had shown through the actions of the SA and the SS that it was perfectly willing to slaughter its own and other nation's citizens. Fourth, the Nazi regime was not diplomatically isolated, like Iran is, it had allies like Mussolini and Hirohito.
And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Talking is not appeasment. Giving in to a bully's demands time and time again again is appeasement.
What does that make Pelosi? And the other Democrats who are afraid to say no to Bush sending hundreds of billions more of our tax dollars away to a failed occupation?
A taxpayer revolt is needed to end this war.
San Francisco Vote Pelosi out in the June 3d primary.
So the "History Guy" is claiming that prior to Chamberlain's admittedly disastrous attempts at diplomacy Hitler had no plans to invade Poland? That Hitler was just waiting to get one over on England prior to his attempt at world domination. That is what the History Guy is saying. Really. The History Guy is saying that.
Whoever hired him to work on anything having to do with history should ALSO be making license plates. Cause that is criminally stupid.
Ollie North Show, it's kind of like "Aesop's Fables" told by that Dog and his boy Sherman.
According to my own research on the subject, Hitler wanted war before his own assessment of his health precluded him from leading Germany (he reasoned that since his father died early, he would too). Britain and France didn't want war, and (again, from what I know) they were willing to strip the Sudetenland from the Czechs and give it to Germany in order to stop the war. My sources are Churchill, Kissinger and Shirer.
The Czechs, with a mutual defense pact with France, felt betrayed and with very good reason.
If Bush was searching for a better analogy, he might have found one in 1990 when his Daddy's envoy to Saddam Hussein implied that the US wouldn't object to Iraq seeking a territorial solution to its boundary dispute with Kuwait.
These clowns keep on digging their own hole deeper. They can't help it. You can't fix stupid.
Ollie needs to ask another "historian" for tutoring -- tell him to give W a call!
WWII was going to happen. Regardless.
Seems like they all forget that Chamberlain's meeting with Hitler pushed him East and created tension between Germany and Russia. I wonder what would have happened if both socialist states had been neutral, or had joined forces?
We can thank Chamberlain for that much, can't we?
Oliver North has also been making money hiring Interrogators for the War On Iraq:
CounterPunch: Torture, Incorporated - Oliver North Joins the Party
Right wing ignorance of history is nothing new- After all, wingnuts are openly hostile to academia and educated people-
I was impressed when Chris Mathews recently humiliated an ignorant right winger who had was ignorant of the events that lead up to the UK's involvement in WW2.
Neocons paint world history in the light of American exceptionalism- The notion that we have always been the good guys...I've seen right wingers try to spin the Mai Lai masscre in Vietnam as having been done to protect freedom.
One of Bush's moronic quotes dealt with his ignorance-and indifference towards history- He admitted he isn't much of a reader, and felt people don't read history books because they are not interested in things that happened 'way back there'.
Don't look to FOX for intelligent discourse...And since many right wingers blast Sesame Street for being 'too liberal (i.e too many minority kids on the show); no doubt the very foundations of their respective educations are shakey.
Appeasement is the cause of war! Bottom line. They should have called it the Munich War Conference of 1938.
Palooka @ 22:
The USSR mean Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. If you can get Socialist from Nazi, than you can get Republican for USSR.
Hannity
It's right up there with Hannity's Curious George books. Well, it's good to know the wingnut welfare program has decided to dumb there books down enough to be "read" at Sean's level.
The debate is to talk or not to talk instead of bomb or not bomb.
That is a good thing to keep w and cheney from bombing Iran.
Even after 3-5 days after Boosh makes that remark, they still haven't cracked a history book. Too busy i guess.
I don't believe in heaven and hell, but if there's a hell, there's a special place there for pieces of shit like Oliver North.
Ollie needs to wiin one of Olbermann's "worst person in the world" awards for talking about those pathetic liberal appeasers starrting wwII when his own history is of dealing arms for hostages with Iran. Sean Hannity gets second place for cheering him on.
What do we call it when they put their criminals (North, Feith, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Liddy, Gonzalez, Libby, etc.) above our true decorated American heroes (Kerry, Cleeland, Kennedy, etc.) who have not committed crimes against their government, or humanity? Anti-American, Fascist Revisionism! Let them send their children to die for our country...not a chance!
ysbaddaden @ 26:
Our Republican party is fairly socialist already. Just not in a way that actually benefits the majority.
ysbaddaden @ 26:
YSB ... You might enjoy this that I found researching the seven dwarfs.
http://course1.winona.edu/pjohnson/h140/snow_white_fable.htm
Brother's Grimm were a couple of very strange guys. whooee!
You have to wonder when Kevin James will get a juicy contract with Faux. He has as much credibility as Stean and Ollie.
FAUX NEWS: The channel of Hate spewing Christians, Criminals pardoned by other criminals and Factless based opinions.
It should be called the Hypocrisy Channel!
StirFry @ 5:
So BillO's "attacks" on GE actually have nothing to do with Iran killing US troops ?, what a wonderful man Mr O'Reilly really is, makes shit up about Iran killing US troops and blames it on a company doing business with Iran. Bill O'Reilly truley is one disgusting piece of filth.
getalife @ 28:
Don't be shocked if we do bomb Iran before Bush leaves office (or rather IF he leaves office).....
On the way to work, I had the radio on in the car- nothing but right wing callers between the traffic reports- Every single caller was a right wing toadie calling for Bush to 'nuke' Iran..
And to think Republicans insist they stand on the 'side of life'..
Ollie North should still be in jail. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfield should be charged as war criminals....but the American way is, these guys will write books, go on the talk show circuit (TDS/Colbert included) and make a ton of money.
With 300,000 million people and 50% are on each side of the political road....that's just the way it is.
The Republican vs Democrat support is no different from Sunni/Shite, Black/White, Muslim/Christian............there's as much strength on both sides because of your disdain for each other.
The old saying.....the more the hate...the more the will to fight. Perhaps this why the wars the USA have been in are becoming so hard for them to win. Americans have soldiers fighting because the military is A JOB...whereas, their opposition are fighting in defence of their country, culture and hatred towards the USA. Anyone will pick up a pitchfork to fight against a soldier with an AK-47. Have you not figured out why yet?
How about starting up a "draft Robert Gates for President committee??" He's the only person from Capitol Hill who has spoken the truth in about 15 years.
ysbaddaden @ 26:
If you think by way of their name the USSR was socialist in any way whatsoever, then you must likewise think the The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy, and if that's the case, I've got a bridge for sale I think you'd be interested in.
Speaking of appeasement, Hillary Clinton appeased Bush by voting for the Bush War for Oil.
Revising history is an American pastime. It isn't just Ollie North that does it. It is American historians that do it too. Almost all US history books paint the rest of the globe as greedy warmongering bastards, as opposed to those always good heroic American cowboys who always ride in to save the day. The rest of the world chuckles.
Amitola @ 40:
I'll grant you that Gates isn't so bad, comparatively at least with the rest of this administration, but that's taking it waaaay too far. No one in this criminal enterprise that is Bushco ever needs to come anywhere near our govt after we flush this foul turd come Nov.
Keep in mind---
Chamberlain was coming from a country still reeling from a million dead and 1.6 million wounded, and nearly bankrupted, from WWI. The Brits and French told the Czechs that they would not defend them if Germany took the ethnic-German Czech region of The Sudentenland September 30, 1938.
Prescott Bush was a banker with Brown Brothers Harriman and represented Thyssen in Germany until Fritz Thyssen broke with Hitler in 1939, and with other German interests until it was made illegal in 1942.
Who's the appeaser?
He's their "history guy". Great gravy. No wonder they don't know anything about anything.
Here's a scenario undr the "What If" category.
What if, both USA & Canada being blessed with the unused land mass we have, decided to take about 50% of the annual military budget and gave it to the farming communities to grow food. Yes, food for the world......or does that sound to human or Christian-like?
Then the USA could legitamently claim to be "rulers of the world" or "my brothers keeper".
How in God's name could any country threaten the USA without the rest of the world standing up in their defence. Essentially, the rest of the world would be protecting their food source.
Guns scare/threaten people....food attracts/welcomes.
Never! The USA needs to keep their #1 employer in business and that is the Pentagon and to justify the Pentagon's budget...they need a little chaos around the world and usually (with the covert shit they are good at) they cause the chaos.
And that's the facts Jack!
Ralph Kramden @ 42:
No no no, you've got it all wrong. It wasn't a war for oil (especially since oil has topped $4.00/gallon recently), it was a war for Halliburton.
What BS.
But just let's entertain this thought for a moment further. If WWII hadn't happened, who would have benefitted the most? The Soviet Union under Stalin and China. Both of them endured by far the most casualties: 43 million of the 72 million in total, roughly 60% of the entire rest of the world.
Stalin and Communism would not have been seriously crippled by WWII, in lives lost and in their economy.
In 1938, Chamberlain and the rest of the world didn't view Hitler-Germany and Japan as the biggest threat to World Peace. It was Stalin and Communism.
Great mug shots of North. Their mug shots should accompany all articles about them. Delay, North, all of them.
This is truly disturbing. And to top this, FOX has the nerve to have Karl Rove, a traitor, on their staff.
One subject that is always painted in the pro-US light is the horrific war crime of dropping of 2 A bombs on Japan-Over 100,000 civilians were vaporized- Funny how the US can decide which nation can or cannot have WMD, when it was the US who used nukes on civilians...
Americans casually dismiss the Japanese deaths as unimportant-They argument that dropping the A bombs saved million of US lives is bullshit- Japan was months away from surrendering ..
The A bombs were all about showing the Soviet union our capibilities
ConcernedCanuck @ 43:
Interesting. Why is it, we non-Americans see it that way? Especially "WE" being your closest neighbour? When the rest of the world question their dislike/disdain towards Americans, I'm sure they question the basis of their feelings as part ignorance because of their geograhical distance. But when they see how the feelings of the USA's closest neighbour are, they must feel more assured.
Maybe it's because Canada is a very placid, mind-your-own business type of place....geez...like most of the rest of the world. We don't go around looking for people we can bloody their nose or steal their resources. We are very thankful and acceptant of all we have versus the other guy. We would rather pay, trade or barter with other countries than invade and take over their resources.
This is who the far right, brain dead respect.....trash like libbey, north, rove, and all the other disgraced faces in the far right. They really have NO ONE of ethical and moral standing that they can have come on that disgusting propaganda network and spin for the dead party.
Shameful, and pathetic cancer to this country. The days of Eisenhower are dead and gone. It's now the party of nixon, reagan/alzheimer, bush and the criminal offspring. What a sad and pathetic party of criminals.
I want to spit when I see this pompous criminal give advice and comfort to the brain dead that tune in and lap up his shit spewing. vannity isn't even worth a comment.
a perfect segment
good video, great links, well written
perfect
Chamberlain met with Hitler in September of 1938. In March of that year Hitler had already annexed Austria. To suggest World War II might never have happened if Chamberlain had not met with Hitler fkies in the face of the aftermath of World War I, the autobiography Mien Kampf and the aims and desires of the Nazi party and the German people to reclaim their land.
Oliver North having a History Series on Fox qualifies him to be a janitor. Nothing more.
Mr. Hand @ 52:
Actually, from what I've read from some historians, Japan was already in it's last war throes and was merely weeks away from surrendering. Either way, it seems odd how the US has always targetted civilians in times of war or invasion. Japan. Vietnam. Korea. Cambodia. Haiti. South America. The list is almost endless. American military seems to have a knack for attacking and killing civilians, and having very poor records versus another military.
Mr. Hand @ 52:
Yes but that was how the war ended my friend. It started very much by the same warmongers, that being the USA! Japan wanted to go into China and the USA sanctioned their Iron-Ore by 80% which meant the nation industry and construction would be crippled and the Japanese saw this as the prelude to an invasion so they did what the USA did with Iraq and is planning on do with Iran and that is attackm it before they are attacked.
The USA knew about the attack and did nothing about it because it was way off US shores and the gain would be....entry into war against this country they wanted to confront.
It's the same story we've been reading over and over again.
The Americans who know the story line are the ones who are ashamed.
Oliever North = Gomer Pile of bull shilt
Wasn't Chamberlain a Tory?
Ralph Kramden @ 42:
YES! She's such a gullible person. The most rudementary knowledge of the beginning of this war will show, Tony Blair (a bit more significant than Ms. Clinton) was also sold on the idea. And as my unbiased memory serves me well...........didn't congress finally vote to invade Iraq or was the decision based entirely on Hilary Clinton.
Guys like you are wayyyyyyyyy tooooooo much. Hey aren't you missing the caroons or the Simpsons or something?
ConcernedCanuck @ 56:
And usually the government tries to justify the killing of civilians by claiming it was done to 'protect freedom'. That is happening right now in Iraq-and how long will it be before US citizens are targeted here at home- and the government will spin lies to justify it's crimes.
ConcernedCanuck @ 56:
A secondary purpose of dropping two atomic bombs on Japan (if not the primary) was to intimidate the Russians who were in a commanding position to sweep across Europe at the end of World War II and conquor the entire continent.
The desperate Faux Noise Reslugs just can't find anyone that can tell the truth. That's why the Reslug criminal and corrupt party is dying quickly.
majicman @ 57:
I am sorry, I find it rather revisionist to leave Japan off the hook so easily. Japan had already started their very own manifest destiny policies well before they attacked Pearl Harbor. They had invaded China, Korea, and Manchuria and killed people by the boatload, so spare me the victimization of the Japanese empire and their reign of fun in the 30s, OK?
Japan simply chew more that they could swallow when trying to push the USA off the Pacific.
Although it is easy to pain the nuclear weapons as WMDs now, if you neck was in the line you would have done the same.
Doug @ 58:
Easy........ I don't like North either but the fact is, he probably could chew you for breakfast. Don't question his intestinal fortitude. I'd say he is the McCain of bullshit though and that wouldn't affect his patriotism during his service in you fucking military....which you would no doubt shit your pants doing....just in boot camp.
And this my friend is from a Canadian who only too well remembers the valor of the soldier in the Vietnam war.
Obviously your gratitude is even than your stupidity!
ConcernedCanuck @ 56:
So I guess the battle for Okinawa must have a figment of our collective imaginations, right up there with the moon landings.
History is messy, but come on...
majicman @ 65:
Excuse me, but i think as an American it is really hard to be gratefull to someone who, as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States of America subverted the United States Constitution and violated the law in pursuit of an ideology.
herr dubyah has been a complete and utter disaster for this country and a WIDE majority of Americans know this fact. herr dubyah's policies have been complete failures and he's already been proven to be the worst president in history. Yet, you have these milktoast pansies like the criminal North and insane vannity still blind and obtuse enough to actually defend anything that comes out of the chimp's mouth. It's really, really sad that hacks like North and vannity are still stupid enough to be put their party ahead of this country. One thing we know for sure that herr dubyah's failed policies have ALL been driven by party partisanship and were not the best course for this country. Sadly, reich-wingers prefer someone like that....welcome to permanent minority status....you earned it.
pretty amazing hubris for a criminal
I was wondering what that stench was coming from this site this fine morning.
It's the rotten, gangrenous decay of tens of thousands of bodies of innocent Nicaraguan citizens murdered by Oliver North, John Poindexter, Ronald Reagan and our tax dollars.
For a fraction of the penance owed for what we did to those people, North should have been incarcerated long ago. That he is not rotting in a prison cell as I write this only confirms to me that the US government is irreversibly corrupted. Fortunately for people like North and Hannity, there is no chance I will ever meet them and do to them what my worst fantasies of retribution would permit. But maybe someday someone will. On that day I will smile again.
Fuck you Oliver North. You're a fucking murderer of innocent people and if there's a hell your table is reserved.
The Dude @ 64:
Do you even know what you just wrote? The agenda of which you accused Japan of having, my question to you is, how much different is that of America's current agenda with the Middle East & South East Asia and what is the agenda founded on?
Don't utter such hypocrital bullshit to the board.
The fact is, the USA will never enter into another conventional battle. They will always have 17,000 warheads as their hole card (but it's for peaceful purposes) and whenever it looked like they were going to lose.....it's bombs away....AGAIN!
Deny that and prove how totally amiss of reality you are.
The Dude @ 66:
Did it justify dropping 2 A bombs on Japan?
Twist the truth and you'll get some followers. Ask Charlie Manson.
majicman @ 65:
I don't care what this fucking traitor did in Vietnam, any redeeming service is eclipsed by the fact that he committed some of the maximum crimes of TREASON during the Iran-Contra affair, and he is not only not remorseful or sorry but damn proud he got to wipe his filthy ass with the constitution.
He is a criminal and a traitor, so maybe in Canada is your standard for gratitude (I highly doubt it), but here it is not. Regardless of what FOX news and the morons in the right wing of this country try to make us believe.
It will be a cold day in hell before I get to give thanks to Ollie North for anything. And I come from a family with people who fought and served this country with dignity and honor, and this fucking asshole has shat over their memories. Fuck him... fuck him with a white hot iron rod up his rectum.
North is a criminal. Just like the rest of his criminal buddies. I don't give a fuck if he took on the red army himself as a lad. He's lost what little credibility he might have earned LONG ago.
I can't believe this weasel is popping up again after all this time. Probably thinks we all owe him something for all his hard criminal work.
Just goes to show you dirty reslugs never die, they just get consulting jobs at faux noise.
xoites (One White Vote for Obama) defends Constitution @ 67:
Then doesn't it concerrn you that you live amongst 150 million people (Republicans) who support your own Commander-In-Chief and that administrations ideology?
If so, then is it not fair for the rest of the world to feel this way about the US President and the people who voted him in?
majicman @ 71:
I know exactly what I wrote. Regardless of whatever fucked up things the US of A has done, there is no reason why you have to pull all these red herrings and tangential bullshit in order to somehow excuse Japan of their own imperial policies of aggression during the 30s. They poked the wrong sleeping giant, they lost.
Trying to forget that Japan invaded China, Korea, and South Asia before they attacked Pearl Harbor, to somehow blame it on the Americans is not only inaccurate but an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Such revisionist crap diminishes whatever valid points you may have about current affairs.
If in your push to blame the US of A you are excusing the Japanese empire during the 30s... you are doing something wrong.
Olive North has no moral compass.
majicman @ 65:
What gratitude are we supposed to give this criminal, partisan, anti-American North scumbag that wraps his perverse body in the flag?
People are still dying as a direct result of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Hard to justify their deaths especially in light of the real purpose of the attacks which included but not limited to: testing the weapons, intimidating Russia and ending the war.
The war would have come to a close soon enough with or without the anihilation of so many civilians. Anyone here care to justify the fire bombing of Dresden?
majicman @ 76:
Where did you pull this [bullshit] "stat" from?
majicman @ 76:
Apple? Meet Orange.
After a heated exchange between Alan Colmes and North, North points to his book and says: "Read the book Alan, it's right there in the book" as if that proves anything.
He also said: "Suggest to me what the opening gambit would be for the discussion when Barack Obama sits down with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Hi, would you like a cup of tea".
That could be a start. Or how about: "Good afternoon. It is good that we at last have a chance to explore our differences".
What's the first thing you say to a new neighbor? In North's case that would be a problem having fenced in his property with security equipment filched from the American taxpayers.
Why do Republicans consider North a hero for lying to Congress, yet villify Bill Clinton for lying to Congress? Righties will often admit, it wasn't the bj that upset them about Clinton, it was the fact Clinton lied about it- Then why do they give North a pass?
"Oliver North, just like John McCain and other conservatives, don’t even have a clue what they are talking about."
================================
McCain pretty much stews in his own dementia, but Ollie and other neocon hacks know exactly what they are doing: Lying their sorry asses off day after day to protect the moneyed interests.
ronhohn @ 83:
I'm surprised the criminal North didn't respond: "just watch pathway to 9/11!!!"
The Dude @ 74:
But he was only doing what Ronnie Reagan agreed on. Are you saying this about another President? And why stop there....how about the Phoenix Program during the Vietnam War brought on by Nixon............geezus, when you think of it, you guys have had it tough with a bunch of questionable Presidents. Think tyhe world should wonder at all?
Do I have to remind you, the Gulf of Tomkin was a lie? Does this not say anything about how the US Presidents will drum up anything to invade other countries?
Yes, yes, Walk Proud America.... Your Presidents have been so genuine with their people,
Mr. Hand @ 84:
Easy answer: IOKIYAR
The Dude @ 77:
So that justifies nuking civilain populations? Using your logic, 9/11 was a justified attack.
The Dude @ 77:
The Japanese of World War 2 were the Al Qaeda boogeyman of the day. Pure political propaganda. There was no need to nuke them. Period. End of story. No justification. Just like there was no reason to invade Iraq. Just like there was absolutely no reason to invade Afghanistan. Just as there was no need to invade Vietnam. Just as there was no need to napalm innocent villagers. Just as there was no need to carpet bomb German cities in World War 2. Just because someone/nation is accused of doing something, does not make it truth. You can't justify atrocities by using flimsy excuses. It doesn't cut it.
I seem to remember a whole of of "I don't recall..." type statements during the Iran-Contra hearings... and this guy's a history expert, with a memory like that? Pshaw.
Dr. Biitter Hussein (Mission Accomplished) Matt @ 79:
Like your current Administration? They're the leaders....North (the a-hole) was the guy who was following orders. Don't be afraid dear boy...put the blame on your President or are you afraid of being put on the no-fly-list? HAHA
Ok, we got Olberman dealing with O'reilly, when is someone going to take on Hannity.
That gas-bag would be SOOO easy to deflate, why hasn't someone started?
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/kfiles/b91585.html Links to this moron's lies are simply too numerous to list.
May I suggest Rachel Maddow?
Fox news...(sigh)so many douche bags so little time.
Mark Fuhrman, Karl Rove, Oliver North, Newt Gingrich, Bill O'falafel...I'm sure I left out a few of Fox news disgraced employees and anylists.
Fox is what state run media looks like! Goose stepping to whatever shit the administration lets roll out their pants leg.
Cancel your cable and tell them it's because of Fox state run propaganda delivered by disgraced criminals who are BLOODGUILTY in the Whitehouse failed war against INNOCENT people!
Mr. Hand @ 89:
EX-friggin-actly!
Oliver North just got confronted by some young reporters at a Louisville, Kentucky event for the NRA. They asked him questions he didn't want to answer. They got arrested and their footage was confiscated. It was a question and answer session, but I guess the Main Stream Media are the only ones who know which questions to ask. Sad state we are living in now, when criminals like Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy are respected journalists and patriotic Americans are labeled whack job nuts by the MSM and even by some of their peers in the progressive movement.
I just read where McCain's "5th top aid" has resigned. Does John McCain number these people? It's like Al-Queda personnel when they're caught/killed....how does the US know how important they are to Bin Laden? I don't think they call them Privates, Sargents, Lueys, Captains or Generals do they? You gotta love your media...incredible!
majicman @ 87:
More genuine, apparently than you since you seem to be arguing both sides with no apparent aim but to incite and keep a discussion flow from occuring.
QUOTE"Oliver North just got confronted by some young reporters at a Louisville, Kentucky event for the NRA. They asked him questions he didn’t want to answer. They got arrested and their footage was confiscated"
Why were they arrested? Why was their footage taken? Jesus, have we gotten to the point a person can be arrested for asking questions? Is this Stalin's Soviet Union? The glorification of military might tells me we are well on our way- all we need now is gulags to make the oicture complete.
Thank god for Helen Thomas- she still asks the questions that makes the Repugs squirm..
I'd say pre-emptive strikes, the alternative to peaceful negotiations, are MUCH more Nazi-esque. How dare they even insinuate that, and how dare anyone be so dumb as to consider Bush's argument.
Could it be considered appeasement that Bush delivered to Iran an Iraq minus its hated dictator who had invaded Iran and killed thousands? The question is what could have been to the US' advantage? Iranian co-operation? Or payment for their assistance in addressing the taliban situation?
Putting wmd's aside - was going after 1 dictator worth what it has cost us in lives and treasure, even decades, maybe centuries into the future?
That's North's picture next to the true definition of 'Traitor' in the dictionary.
ronhohn @ 100:
This falls under American exceptionalism- Its the 'if the USA does it, it's okay' mindset.
The US backed and armed Saddam sicne the 60s, many of the weapons he used on his own peoople were made in the USA- That is called supporting state terrorism. Wingnuts would argue that America stands above other nations of the earth, and exceptions should be made in our involvements with Iraq....
Why is it that the US media has reduced the American support of Saddam to a footnote?
Saddam was a monster WE created-Yet the right wing insists the US bears NO responsibility for the murders carried out when Saddam butchered his own people..
xoites (One White Vote for Obama) defends Constitution @ 97:
And where praytell did you dream that offering up?
ronhohn @ 100:
Or maybe it was repayment for holding the American Embassy hostages until Reagan's Inauguration Day to insure Reagan's election by using the hostage "situation" as a campaign issue against Carter.
Everything you need to know about Ollie North from a "Genuine American Hero' Col. David Hackworth:
http://www.airborne-ranger.com/ranger/wannabees/OllieNorth.html
I am sorry to disagree, but anyone who believes this con is not a fool...a complete asshole would be a better description, e.g. Hannity.
Ollie North - proof positive that anyone can succeed in Washington if you are totally unethical, a colossal suck-up and willing to commit any crime to get ahead.
If Iran is the "enemy", does that make Dick Cheney and Halliburton collaborators for trading with the enemy?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A110-2004Jul20.html
Son of a bitch.
In light of Fuckabee's "joke", North's language here is damn near criminal.
War criminal. Someone needs to put this pig-scrote in jail.
hood @ 107:
Here in the West, our existence revolves around "the dollar". We will sell our children off to make a buck. That being said, Fox news is indirectly owned and operated by the RNP. However, if you listen to WBEN-Buffalo, you would say the very same thing for that station. From 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. it's totally left wing but more interestingly...it's totally Obama. 5 programs, all saying the good things for Obama and 12 hours of negative Clinton.
Coincidence or fact? My intuition-gut feeling is, it's investment made by political factions under "Advertising & PR".
Same can be said for Limnuts, Hannity, Kristol & O'Reilly. You think graff is dead?
It's marketing folks and political partyies have taken on the McDonalds/Coca-Cola marketing playbook. It's a great investment and very profitable to some network owner (Air America or Sinclair). A cool $5-$50 milion to talk about Obama or McCain for 6-8 months.
Almost nothing provokes conservative rage so much as a convicted felon who walks on a technicality. Ollie is the exception that proves the rule.
Christ almighty, it's like absurdist theater over on the Fox network. He's hawking a book, published no doubt by some entity owned by Murdoch, lying about history, protecting a criminal regime and double-talking to bash Obama all at the same time. All the while the sound of a cash register is drowning out the truth.
Ollie was a loathsome little toady back in the 80s, and he's even worse now. I'd personally like to punch every one who bought his "book" right in their ignorant noses. Sheesh.
Someone needs to take on InsHannity publicly. Olbermann? Colbert? Anyone, for god's sake.
Mr. Hand @ 89:
Wow, straw man much?
There is a big fucking stretch from saying that claiming how the US forced Japan to invade Asia and bomb Pearl Harbor is a load of hog wash and try to make it as if I am justifying both the atomic bombing of cities and 9/11.
millionairearmsdealer @ 113:
93 StevePam Says: Rachel Maddow?
ronhohn @ 101:
Not by a long stretch. Esp. if you consider that said dictator was willing to exile for a sum that now seems orders of magnitude less than what this fucking farce of a war is costing us.
But, hey... he tried to kill Bush's daddy, so it is the divine Bush right to bankrupt us in seeking their revenge. Fuck the lot of them...
Well maybe Oliver North should know, "as he said he is the expert on WW2 history", That the Bush Family help the Nazi with finance and made their fortune on the back of JEWISH slave labor, may he's not that much of an expert, just another Faux liar.
Oliver North should have been hanged for treason a long time ago- but apparently the old fable is true in that a bad penny always shows up again.
Meanwhile, Turds like Tucker Carlson are saying things about how those who don't want America attacked will vote McCain, because the Iranians were so scared of the heroic, manly republican Ronald Reagan, that they released the hostages 20 minutes after he was inaugurated. I guess he just "forgot" about the whole republicans-cut-a-backdoor-deal-and -traded-arms-at-grossly-inflated-prices-for-the-hostages-then-used-the-profits-to-fund-the-contras-in-violation-of-US-laws thingie. Funny, that. As I remember, there were hearings, news coverage, and some feckless SOB's went to jail over it while Ronny and GHWB recited the magic words, "I don't remember/ I don't recall".
millionairearmsdealer @ 113:
Here, here. He is one of the worst shit spewwers on the rong. Though he has gotten better, Crypt Keeper Colmes just doesn't cut it. Some on needs to put a fork in sHamity for good.
Got nothing good to say about Oliver North.. prick should have been chipping rocks at Leavenworth since about 1986... maybe 87 after appeals. But then for that to have happened also means Ronnie Ray-Gun would probably be recorded in history as the first successful impeachment in our history.. (not that this would be a great little footnote in American history..) But the thing is; All that shit North was involved in was on the books criminal? Against the wishes and expressed directions of congress and done with the president and vice presidents blessings. I'm sure some troll will chime in that's not true, you can't prove the president etc etc....
You folks think Ollie North would have 'charged up that hill' without orders from the top??? HE said it himself in testimony... Oh, it was a nicely crafted little coverup with the dirt ending at North with a little amnesty thrown in to keep people who could blow the lid off this crap onboard.. But make no mistake, this was orchestrated and put in motion right from the oval office and it was wrong! That they managed to compartmentalize and spare Reagan any direct link does not make it any less true that none of it would have happened without Reagan/Bush's green light. Marines, even a freaking rightwing war monger like Ollie North won't go chargin up no hills without orders....
So it probably also means the Bush's would have never been afforded the opportunity to gain the presidency since Poppy was up to his eyelids deep in the Iran/contra scam himself... Him, Wild Bill Casey, Ronnie, plus most of the players of todays debacles whom we've watched wreck this country in the here and now were involved to greater or lessor degrees..... All of em... Should have been behind bars all these years over Iran/Contra alone, instead of running around further screwing up our country from positions of power and influence...
And so, this rant is actually an object lesson in what can happen when people in positions of power decide to deceive a nation over criminal behavior in top levels of government instead of nipping that kind of shit in the bud the first time it rears its ugly littly fascist head. Given that, I think the case can be made that a whole hellova lot of bad has flowed from that Iran-contra scandal.. Ollie Norths little claim to fame........JD
These guys both look like Tom Tomorrow cartoon characters.
What a joke. North knows about REX 84 (Google it) and the fact that the CIA was shipping drugs into the country (inner city) from Latin America back in the 1980's (Bush, Clinton have some 'splainin' to do!) and beyond. North has absolutely no credibility which is why Hanniturd loves 'im.
Sean and North seem to be talking to each other.
North had no problem robotically following orders to supply weapons to our enemies in his day.
Reagan spoke with the Leader of the USSR.
As for this "unconditional" talks with dictators. GW talked with Sadam, Rumsfeld did.
If you already have a preconditioned agreement to talk, then you already talked unconditionally and in private.
I think what the GOP/corporate media is pushing is that it is ok to talk with dictators as long as there is profit in it. LIKE, McCain's Mayanmar Hunta lobbyists. That is ok. Just don't let the citizenry hear it.
One other item, GOP just markets and yells obscenities at us. We must be their enemy because they do not TALK TO US..!
millionairearmsdealer @ 113:
Franken has done that. Others have done that but with less omphf than the Conservatives because of the process.
First the book has to be published and who are the bigger publishers? Then it has to be marketed on the TV/Radio circuit and who are they owned by?
This whole story is just part of a much bigger plan that was created by a very smart group of people. It's like "the Arts", sports & entertainment. i.e. recording, movies, professional sports teams, TV, newspapers & publishing. Who owns them? Isn't think where the money is? Isn't money power? In the media, what story is going to get out to Americans?
Example of control and power, Want an Academy Award winning movie taken from a Pultizer prize-winning book? Do anything on the Holocaust. Was there not one good German or bad Jewish person during the war? America has had its Capones. Were there no bad Jewish people? Those stories are controlled.
And we think propoganda is in the hands of the enemy. Fox, Murdock, most right-wing (Coulter, O'Reilly, Hannity) will tell the story they want America to hear. We just live in a very controlled society and yet we don't realize it because of our 2 cars, house and food on the table to make warm and fuzzy and feeling better than some guy in Bangledesh who appears on the news......as a sibliminal reminder.
tenndemo @ 21:
You can tell that they are already in touch.
Does anyone still watch Fox "News"???
Alan Colmes at one time (maybe as long as 2 years ago) hinted to North about his past, but backed off. I never figured out whether it is Fox's policy to not to expose their criminals or whether it was Alan's ethics. But North did not look pleased when Alan mentioned his past without being specific.
Mr. Hand @ 52:
Yeah, the bombs were a war crime by today's standards. Guess what, my pro-Japan friend, the Japanese in WWII often made Hitler's goons look like choir boys next to the old Hell's Angels. The Japanese Army in WWII is estimated to have killed around 30 million people. Something else you need to remember is that our firebombing of Tokyo alone killed more than the immediate aftermath of both bombs did. More. While we're quick to bash our side for the A-Bombs, I would have chosen something different to bash the WWII generation on. Our war with Japan involved a shitload of headhunting. We slaughtered Japanese, they slaughtered us, in an endless cycle of violence.
The bombs didn't save our lives so much as it did the Japanese as an ethnic group (the Ainu, as well). Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when Hirohito wanted to surrender, some diehards tried to arrest him. That when the Shinto religion saw the Emperor of Japan as a god. So, had we invaded with no twin bombs on two cities, it's quite likely Japan would be a cemetery today. For one thing, the place where we were going to land on Honshu had triple the forces we were expecting. For another, one look at Okinawa, where the people weren't ethnically Japanese and the civilian death toll caused by their fear of our army and extracting that to the Home Islands (even with the starvation caused by our blockade, matter of fact that might have made them fight harder to be spared the slow death of starvation as opposed to the quick death of a bullet), the result would have been the extermination of the population of Hokkaido, Kyushu, and Honshu.
Our actions were inexcusable, as was sending the army into Afghanistan and Iraq (we should have fought terrorism the way the USSR did) but to somehow ignore the brutality of the Imperial Japanese is equivalent to Holocaust Denial.
majicman @ 125:
Further, we don't realize or appreciate the fact that we're still infants as far as being a country/culture is concerned. We will have the same internal problems as 1000 year-old cultures just by standing up to those we oppose internally. Where does it start? Usually with the poor. Then it's the culture clashes or religious groups.
That has yet to be experienced here in the West.
You can see it....everything isn't as GROOVY as it was 60 years ago. There's a ton of distrust in this country towards it's leaders and disloyalty by the leaders towards the populance.
The compass shows we're on course.
The Dude @ 114:
Actually, in a lot of ways, we did force Japan to strike. We were going to cut off their oil supplies or make them subject to us for political decisions. As the only independent nonwhite nation at the time, Japan was going to react to that as well as you and I would react to the PRC telling us we can and can't trade with this or that nation. Japan's strike was more than justified from a realpolitik perspective.
More Ollie North tripe from the NRA meeting:
Retired Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North believes media bias can be proved through word association.
Speaking at the Kentucky Exposition Center yesterday, North recited the first part of several pop-culture references -- "Britney…," "Sex in the…" and "Oprah…" -- and the crowd of several hundred National Rifle Association members quickly fired back with the answers: "Spears," "City," and "Winfrey."
"Now name a Medal of Honor winner from this war (in Iraq)," North asked the crowd.
Very few answered, which North said proves the bias of the mainstream media against war.
Isn't Fox the main spewers of Hollywood gossip? And aren't they the last in amount of time spent covering the Iraq war?
More "truth" from Faux Spews.
The Truth Hurts @ 127:
C'mon....maybe not you or I because of the party we support but I bet you just as many Americans and probably more troops as there are MSNBC viewers.
If you don't believe that, then you haven't heard of A/C. Neilsons.
North has always been a scumbag, but wow, this conversation is shameless given North's record. In some eras, he'd have been tried as a traitor or war criminal.
What a fucking pair to draw too , two of the most disgusting Traitors this nation has ever produced , just a coincidence they both reside on the Fux news channel .
Re: The A-bomb. Why are people so PARTICULARLY angry about the U.S. dropping 2 nukes on Japanese civilians? Curtis Lemay's conventional bombing of Japanese cities killed far more civilians and was just as immoral. The sad nature of advances in weaponry is that they must inevitably be tested on humans. Dropping a bomb in the Nevada desert is simply not the same as trying it out on a human population. The horrific examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the single most important reasons why nobody has ever used them since. If we hadn't used our small arsenal of primitive bombs, then larger arsenals of more powerful weapons would inevitably have been employed in Korea, Cuba or elsewhere.
The Americans had no reason to believe that Japan was going to surrender easily. The closer we got to the Japanese home islands, the exponentially bloodier the battles were. Iwo Jima was a bloodbath with 50,000 combined casualties on both sides. The day it ended, the U.S. landed on Okinawa, which resulted in 200,000 combined military and civilian casualties. The Army's estimate of a million in U.S. casualties in a home island invasion seems quite reasonable to me.
joeedugan @ 137:
What about the Japanese casulties? I always hear (and accept) high casulties on the Allied side in such an invasion, but what about the Japanese? And where does the USSR fit into these calculations? The force they moved for August Storm would have curbstomped Japan so badly you couldn't say "Uncle" to surrender to it. In looking at a no-A-Bomb scenario, there's the issues of whether our original plan for Downfall would have gone in, whether the Operation Starvation thing wouldn't have started causing trouble for Tojo's boys, what the USSR would do, and also the resistance posed by Japan.
General_Rennenkampf @ 132:
I guess it was also the US who forced Japan to kill all those Chinese, Koreans, et al. Right...
Billy @ 25:
I guess you haven't read Mein Kampf have you?
john @ 118:
Good point. Our "liberal" media goes on ad nauseum about the fact that Obama attends a church where a pastor made some uncomfortable comments. Yet in the last 8 years (12 if you count George H. Bush's presidency), I have yet to hear ONE WORD from any MSM outlet that the Bush family made their fortune at least in part by being Nazi ass-kissers. You think that would have been relevant to a few million voters in the last decade or so. But hell no, not in this bizzaro country.
Seriously, if anyone witnessed a mainstream media discussion about Prescott Bush, Nazi banker, I would be interested in when and where you heard that. Oh that, and the fact that ol' Pressie tried to overthrow the U.S. government kind of puts W's petulant behavior into perspective.
The Dude @ 139:
No, we didn't. They were doing the Asian version of Nazi and Soviet expansionism. The US forced Japan to attack us, but even if we hadn't they'dve eventually attacked the UK and France's colonies simply because 1) Britain was so tied up with the Nazis it could barely afford to fight Japan without our help and 2) The French Asian colonies were loyal to Vichy France.
As for the Koreans and Taiwanese Aborigines, that was just one Asian group playing by the white colonial rules over other Asians. I'm sure you're real broken-hearted about the fate of the Middle East and Africa after colonialism, too, right? Japan in WWII was a monstrous regime doing monstrous acts. But just about everyone in WWII that was fighting had some blood-smeared shit on their hands, including us.
Howie Felch @ 120:
It was the Carter administration who freed the hostages after long and difficult negotiations. Then Reagan took credit for it.
Tucker's narrative is a nice bedtime story for conservatives, but it's simply not true.
Billy @ 25:
Right...do you realize what a 1938 war would have caused when Britain and France had barely begun rearming as opposed to Hitler's goons who had been enhancing the Weimar Republic's re-arming? Even taking in Czechoslovakia into account, the Nazis would have been in a much better position in some ways.
sher @ 51:
That's because at Fox News, they're all traitors.
majicman @ 88:
Yeah, like Europeans and the PRC and the USSR were so much more genuine. Accept that everybody has blood on their hands. Oh, and you're Canadian? Your boys are still in Afghanistan, which you didn't have to join us in. If we have blood on our hands for Iraq, so do you for Afghanistan, as 9/11 didn't hit Ottawa or Saskatoon as far as I remember.
Blaming some-one else for 911 when all evidence points to Bush Cheny PNAC is the lowest f..... crap ever known to mankind, and some blogs still refuse to let anyone post. This debate will go on into eternity, but is if anyone hasn't been paying attn, the police Gestapo is killing people of one by one. When your neigbor disappears, the chance are he would not say anything either when you disappear. Because our entire Government are thugs.
238 dead US Marines.
As far as I'm concerned, that little fact alone relegates Ollie North to Hell.
All I can say about this one is that Oliver North deserves a one-way ticket to Gitmo for his past endeavors. Just like G. Gordon Liddy and the rest of the crooks of yesteryear, he needs to answer for what he's done instead of playing his part in the Bushian/Rovian message that only crooks prosper in today's climate.
It makes the rest of us who are slinging hash for a living believe that if only someone lied, cheated or stole, they are privvy to a contract for millions of dollars pushing fraudulent information on an unsuspecting public.
General_Rennenkampf @ 142:
Yes, indeed... it could not be that a xenophobe empire hell bent in implementing their own version of manifest destiny made a catastrophic miscalculation and got their asses handed back to them. Neither expansion was justified in my book, however saying that the Japanese were "forced" to attack is a bit dishonest IMHO.
A lot of the rewriting of WWII takes all these leaps of faith in assuming that the US was confident enough that would rattle the Japanese to get themselves knee deep in a 2 front all out war and win it. When their previous experience in large scale warfare had been the marginal WWI involvement and an one sided war in 1898 against a decrepit empire.
I guess it is more glamorous than dealing with some empire attacking the wrong power... And the axis powers have a track record of stupid miscalculations, starting with the Italians engaging the British in Africa, the Germans invading Russia, and the Japanese bombing pearl harbor.
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