McCain's secrecy over Navy records raises questions
By SilentPatriot Tuesday Jun 17, 2008 3:10pm
Let me first start off by making absolutely clear that this is not intended in any way to be a "swift boat"-style attack on John McCain and his service. Despite what you may think of him as a Senator or Presidential candidate, there is no denying the fact that he served his country in ways that most of us could never even imagine. For that he deserves our utmost respect and appreciation. But that doesn't mean, however, that all claims about his service should be blindly accepted without scrutiny.
Indeed, investigative reporter Jeffrey Klein has uncovered what appear to be serious gaps in Senator McCain's military records. What Klein has discovered strongly suggests that the McCain campaign is deliberately trying to exaggerate the circumstances surrounding a promotion McCain turned down in order to serve in public life. As Klein notes, the timing -- along with McCain's lackluster academics and poor piloting skills, among other things-- would seem to disqualify him for the promotion in which the campaign now claims he rejected. What's more, McCain's refusal to publicly release his entire Navy record -- something John Kerry did after his record came under scrutiny -- only fuels speculation that he is tying to hide something.
Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage.
The entire article is worth the read, as it meticulously documents the serious gaps in question. Again, this is in no way intended to impugn McCain's military service or the years of torture he endured at the hands of his barbaric captors. Instead, the point is to evaluate the veracity of the claims his campaign is now making in order to help him get elected, and to also challenge him to live up to his promise of open government by fully disclosing his service record.
Just like we are all obligated to honor his heroic service, I think the American people deserve the right to evaluate the official record.
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Speaking of McCain, the LA Times is reporting that Obama leads in 3 key states: "According to the polls posted on the university's website, Obama is ahead 47% to 43% in Florida, 48% to 42% in Ohio and 52% to 40% in Pennsylvania."
So now let's see if that toxic fungus called Pat Buchanan, Wolf Blizter, the CORPORATE PIMP called Chistina Matthews, the entire Fox Propaganda channel, the KEN DOLL that is really a corporate robot called Brian Williams, all the right wing radio talk freaks like Limbaugh, etc, etc, etc now do a 24/7 to have McBush's full milatary records released as they did to Kerry .. who wants to take bets ?
mccain: in vietnam we "frustratingly limited bombing targets", damn civilians... some hero
i reject the meme of his hero status.
"Just like we are all obligated to honor his heroic service, I think the American people deserve the right to evaluate the official record."
I do not feel that I am "obligated" in any way to honor his "heroic" service. What is heroic about being shot down and then spending five years in captivity, some of it spent collaborating with the enemy? Puh-leeze. If anybody needed to be swiftboated in the most severe way, it's this piece of shit, that supposedly was tortured during those five years but now thinks torture is just fine. The guy's a complete dick and needs to be flayed alive.
WTF? Who gives a rats ass?
McCain is wrong in soooo many ways. Nitpicking his service record is not a big-ticket item.
Move ALONG!
I'm positive that McBush is hiding a lot of incriminating stuff. Afterall he just another Reslug liar.
and that is not 'swiftboating' him, that a quote from mccain (to my #3 post)
here's another mccain-vietnam quote:
"I do believe that had we taken the war to the North and made full, consistent use of air power in the North, we ultimately would have prevailed."
I'm not sure I understand how somone who graduated so low in his class got into flight school and then into the seat of a fighter bomber over Vietnam. Were they so desperate for pilots that they were taking anyone who had two arms and two legs? Or did Dad use some pull to get him in? I would also be interested in knowing the circumstances of his shootdown. How many SAMs were fired at him in that incident? I think that, considering the scrutiny under which the medals Kerry earned was so detailed, it would only be fair to know whether McCain should have been flying sorties over N. Vietnam in the first place.
So often it's not what you know that nearly gets you killed and loses a 10 million dollar jet. It's who you know.
In 2000 when McCain ran for President it was reported by his fellow soldiers he didn't tell the truth about his time as a POW.
McCain was scared and talked and was given special treatment by using his Father's status in the Military. Now yes the old man was hurt but he was given medical treatment as others were not. McCain is a proven user and liar. Example his first wife. He dumped her when recovering in the hospital and didn't care about his kids. Yes he saw money bucks Cindy and she brought him. McCain has told so many lies over the years he can't remember them any more. None of his fellow soldiers speak to him and that says it all. McCain made up a story that the press would feed to the public as a hero while he was no better then Bush/Cheney/Rummy all girly boys.
I'm getting very tired of McSame hiding behind his POW status whenever someone dares to question his motives.
"Despite what you may think of him as a Senator or Presidential candidate, there is no denying the fact that he served his country in ways that most of us could never even imagine."
There is no denying that he suffered and survived, which deserves respect. However, I don't think it is clear that the country benefited from (that is, was served by) McCain's time in the Navy.
Samson- @ 7:
drat, should read: "that IS a quote from mccain"
apologies
Might have extended time spent as a POW in Vietnam been an automatic career ender?
It is nonsense that his service record is out of bounds. If John Kerry’s record had to go under the microscope then surely McGrnapa should have his record examined. And why would he not want it to be examined? My hope is that is gets examined and that he passes with flying colors but if there is something there that he is trying to hide I also think we should know about it. It is only fair. I can only imagine that EVERYBODY on the right would like to know as well. ;^)
most of us believe in privacy.........but this is the most powerful position in the land(at least we think so) anyways if you have nothing to hide open up your file(s)...i'm trying not to pass judgement but mccain might be suspect....this is a continuation of bush's...secrecy can't be tolerated by the public anymore......he has been in the government his entire life......of course they will say it's an attack of a war hero.....i can hear/smell hannity already
Samson- @ 7:
Sure, all we had to do was KILL EVERY LIVING THING in North Vietnam, then we could've "democratized" them.
Just like we're doing so successfully in Iraq.
How did McCain get 100 percent disability? Was he diagnosed as mentally unfit or unstable to hold a job???
Did he have a nervous breakdown????
Matt in Texas @ 16:
exactly
this is the *kill 'em all and let gahd sort'em out* (il)logic
Janet @ 17:
Apparently, the GOP looks at "mentally unfit" as a requirement for their presidential nominees.
McCain's economic policies will make a bad situation worse--Winning issue
McCain wants to go war with Iran--Winning issue
McCain wants to "stay the course" in Iraq--Winning issue
McCain is a flip-flopper (See Jerry Falwell and the tax cuts)--Winning issue
McCain is a 3rd Bush term--Winning issue
McCain's war record--Losing issue
This is a diversion, folks, and it does nothing but help McCain and the GOP. It may not be fair, but the media will rush to defend McCain if his military record becomes an issue, unlike their performance with Kerry in 2004. McCain is salivating for the Dems and liberal blogs to make Vietnam a campaign issue--that's about all he has.
Plus, how does making McCain's service contribute to changing the political climate and getting this country away from the goddamn culture wars ushered in by the Sixties? The GOP has thrived on the "us vs. them," "we're patriotic, they're not" politics of the 1960s and 1970s. We've had enough that and we've had enough of them. Please C&L, don't add fuel to their poisionous and disastrous fire!!
While I was civilian flight instructor, I found that a certain personality type seemed more inclined to have accidents than others, including several instructors I knew. The latest and lamest FAA "Aviation Instructor's Handbook" might suggest McBush’s several crashes due to Macho hazardous attitude. It’d be fun to read his instructor pilots notations when he was a student pilot.
The parallel between Bush and McBush regarding privilege, academics, and approach to military service are interesting. At least McBush put his butt on the line in Vietnam.
Does nobody remember the insulting way John Kerry was treated in the '04 election?
This just goes to prove that the Left is no higher above the scum than is the Right.
Here's a fact. While McCain was getting the crap kicked out of him in Viet Nam
honoring the orders of a Democratic President, Obama was still dragging on the
teat and the Clintons were reading Nietsche and smoking weed.
If you want to criticize McCain's ideas, policies, his voting record, fine.
But, don't suppose that you know anything about his military service
or that you're in a position to judge any aspect of it.
If anything, the very fact that he was willing to go to Viet Nam
gives me more inclination to vote for him, and I've never voted
Republican in my life...not once.
Jackie @ 9:
After reading the article at Huff, it seems to me that McCain's own words in his book debunk the story about his being offered the admiral honor. I think his PR guy just fudged the story to make him look good.
What is interesting is that after reading that article, the question came to my mind, what has McCain ever been good at doing? What is his claim to fame? His history that we know of in the Navy was nothing to brag about. A lot of men were taken prisoner during that war and they too survived without telling the enemy anything. But seriously what has he accomplished besides being a Senator? He talks about Senator Obama having no experience, well, what exactly is his?
Let's Not Go Down This Road @ 20:
i think your correct it's almost a trap......but it shouldn't and i think you would agree....someone said it earlier we have to move on.....the right will use this against and rally the haters.....while we take our eyes off the big prize
He should open his entire record.McCain was isolated from other Americans for 22 months.See: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_tedmancurin.htm
He received help at a price...most wounded didn't make it.
He Recieved 28 medals for 20 hours of combat flying. Nepotism at its best?
i don't buy into the ridiculous (mainstream) notion that because McBane was in the service, we need to bend over backwards with caveats before being critical of him. i'm sure the military is rife with cretins like the rest of society.
The hidden record wouldn't have anything to do with the horrible fire on the USS Forrestal now would it?
Nah, they wouldn't cover up for the son/grandson of US Navy Admirals. That doesn't happen.
I wonder how many middle-aged north Vietnamese live with the permanent reminders of McCain's 'service'?
McCain himself characterized his 'service' as that of a 'war criminal'.
OK, it's not an easy thing for military people to buck the system and refuse to participate in the crimes their superiors dream up.
But let's not get carried away about this 'service' thing.
I think the media looks at McCain as the pitiful elderly ex POW and they are afraid if they say anything negative they will look like they are being disrespectful of him.
McCain was also still an active-duty Navy Captain while having his extra-marital affair with Cindy in 1980, which is a crime under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (Article 134-2, "Adultery").
I think this should be left alone. McCain was a real asshole in his actions regarding the Swift Boat Liars and Kerry. There is no reason to invalidate the conventional wisdom that its the GOP'ers that do this stuff with a mini swift boating done on Mccain by the Left. Folks, its his military service you ARE talking about ( no matter how much you preface it with HE is a hero camp) and it should be droped right now. Its a cheap shot and Obama has based his campaign on change from this.
we know from past history extremist's sometimes wear the uniform.....don't make any mistake about it this is a third bush term...he will try to carry the torch of the NEOCON beliefs at all cost
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9341
Richard @ 31:
I strongly agree. No good can come of this.
OneTrickPony @ 22:
Actually, I'd rather have a well-read president than the eager-to-go-to-war president any day. Performance in military service is as up for scrutiny as performance in any other line of work. McCain being a bad pilot doesn't affect my vote one iota, but Republicans opened this can of worms when they started smearing Kerry with a bunch of lies and after the way they clamored for Kerry to release his full military records, it is absolutely fair to remind them their candidate should be held to the same standard.
In view of the fact that Kerry released his entire military record, we should accept nothing less from McSame.
Fork it over Gramps.
*
And while I am at it let me translate the nauseating phrase " it raises questions". The purpose of that psycho-babble is to PLANT questions and TO RAISE questions when in fact they are not there. One might ask: Does McCain have a military problem? Again, the purpose here is to assert that he does rather than ask a legitimate question. We can go on and on with this but to sum it up tersely: is there a fucking reason to use every journalistic scam there is on a site that purports to exist only to expose such scams?
The "official record" is the only one of consequence. sunlight and the radiation of heat.
D @ 30:
OUCH! The whold cheating topic is a much better angle than swiftboating because it demotivates his base instead of getting them fired up.
Sven @ 33:
i totally understand but i don't feel it's cheap but a mistake....
Obama will be swift boated instead. That's how it works in this country.
McPug is running for the highest government position in america. The president represents the people. Therefore, the people have a right to know what McPug is all about! His military records would help reveal the true man under the facade he exposes to the media.
How many planes did Mccrazy crash during his career? and what happened on the Forestal? He is a war hero for what side?
Between the two Kerry or Mccrazy I would say Kerry is more of a hero.
Truth B Told @ 27:
I've read many stories that blame McCain for that fire, but they all track bak to one single story which doesn't name the person(s) who made the accusations.
These accusations must have come from a survivor of that fire. It's been over thirty years since the USS Forrestal burned, and no one has publically admitted to seeing McCain "wet start" his aircraft (I have read many accounts that many who served with McCain considered him a gaping asshole, however). Until I see signed affidavits from witnesses, I'm not buying it at all.
annoyed @ 40:
exactly and that won't be considered cheap but accepted scrutiny.......your running for office everything should open civilian or military.....seems like the unfair advantage deal to me but i willsay were better getting on other issues since this will used against our party
Charles @ 13:
Well I certainly agree that there's NO APPARENT REASON why this automatically QUALIFIES him for president. And I'm sick of people making THAT assumption.
He served. Lots of people served. We can't make them ALL president. I don't care if McSame DOES think it's his term. Let him and Dole go have a good old-fashioned drunken binge over it and be done with it.
*
I guess while it is questionable how much benefit the U.S. got from McCain's time in the Navy, there's no denying how much mileage he's gotten out of it.
John Kerry has never released all his records. There are something like 100 pages still withheld, and - wonder of wonders - they include the circumstances of his "honorable" discharge, which came years after he had finished serving, about the time of Jimmy Carter's general amnesty.
I appreciate your effort to separate John McCain's heroic service from the suspicions you raise. But don't you think there should be more than just suspicions if you're going to raise them about McCain?
Richard @ 31:
Exactly. Kind of hard to talk about "Change We Can Believe In" if we're doing the same as the Rethugs. If we want to dip into McCain's past, there's plenty to talk about without bringing up Vietnam (Keating Five; flip-flopping on the Religious Right, torture, and taxes; bad policies in general, etc.). It's not only contradictory to the new kind of politics represented by Obama, but it's a political disaster for our side.
Remember this--The Hanoi Hilton is McCain's trump card. As long as we make sure that the key issues are the economy, Iraq, and his 90+% support for Bush policies, we win. If we give him the chance to bring up being abused by the North Vietnamese, he wins sympathy for his cause and pulls many of his independent and GOP opponents over to his side.
Don't get me wrong, it frustrates the hell out of me that the media and more Americans didn't rush to Kerry's defense after the Swift-Boat Scumbags attacked his service, especially considering that Bush was busy getting wasted and chasing cougars in Alabam. Hell, it frustrated me that Kerry waited so long to defend himself! But, we have to be real. McCain wants us to talk about Vietnam. Once again, it's his only hope.
he didn't get promoted b/c hmmmm let's see...
he's an idiot
Was he a naval academy grad? that has something to do with it big time if not...especially to Admiral back then
pissed off patricia @ 29:
They look at him the same way they look at Karl Rove; as a master of the game. They respect people who can play the system. One look at the way our media treats vets who are critical of Bush will show you how much inherent respect they hold for military service.
It's McCain's shameless-- yet effective-- exploitation of his military service that they respect. It's not his "moderate" politics they like (he's no moderate). It's the way he's managed to project that illusion and use it to wield more political influence.
so are people really saying that mccain's vietnam record, views on vietnam and the conduct of the vietnam war is not a legitimate line of inquiry?
i TOTALLY understand the hesitancy to make this an issue in the campaign, as it surely will backfire on the dems. but, to say that it is none of our business, or that, somehow, mccain's service is not important is, to me, ludicrous.
in other words: mccain can be destroyed on the economic and foreign policy issues, and this is what the campaign against him should be based on. BUT, as voting citizens, it is our solemn responsibility to understand the underlying ideology, in regards to mccain's views on war, civilian deaths, etc. and, also, comparing an honest look into mccain's past is WHOLLY different from the swiftboat campaign, which was based on dishonesty.
Shouldn't that first line read,
"Let me make this perfectly clear..."
in the government his entire life.........should have seen his face when asked why is government healthcare good enough for you but not me type question.........it was that look of i'm entitled...maybe he is and maybe he isn't the public has paid his way and we want to know what we paid for.........
The "official record" is the only one of consequence. sunlight and the radiation of heat.
If McCain was brainwashed, it should be investigated. He should have to undergo rigorous psychological and physical testing to determine if he is stable enough to be considered a candidate. This would be demanded of anyone on the democratic side trying for such a job. In fact, they would be claiming the democrat is lying, infirm, unconscious, irritable, prone to anger and the enemy.
If you think it best left alone, you have a lot of problems with the reality of the dirt that is the GOP and their slime machine. It is time to expose the truth that they do not want anyone to see. It is hard to believe people wanting "not to go there" when it comes to exposing the inherent criminal behavior of the people that have almost killed this country in 8 years. Please come to your senses.
Being captured doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a POW. There were POWs who were heros -- and Grandpa McCain was not one of them.
"I am a war criminal," McCain said on "60 Minutes" in 1997. "I bombed innocent women and children."
After he was shot down by his fellow sailors, and his napalm killed 132 Americans, he said :
"Now that I've seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I'm not so sure that I want to drop any more of that stuff on North Vietnam."
But he did.
Back when the swift boaters were attacking Kerry, the media ate it up. They showed their ads for free as often as they could. Had they, the media, not abetted the swift boaters as much as they did, I don't believe their ads would have had the impact that they did.
Naval officer promotions are determined by promotion boards, one board for each rank. Officers are selected by the board for pormotion for a particular rank, and the board also determines the date at which the promotion becomes effective. When you become eligible for consideration, it's called "coming into the zone". Nobody knows who's been selected for promotion until the board announces its results.
It's easy enough to find out if McCain was selected for admiral but later turned it down after the board's selections were announced. Just check through archived issues of The Navy Times of that period. If he had been selected for admiral, it would have been announced, as were the selections for every officer selected for promotion to that rank, together with the date at which the promotion would have become effective. If no announcement of selection for O-7 in the Navy Times, then he wasn't selected. And the boards are under penalty of "vigorous interrrogation" followed by death to them and their family pets if any of their deliberations are ever leaked prior to the announcements.
McCain claims he was tortured. How do we know that is true? He has a proclivity to make it up as he goes along, so we need to really
know more about this chronic liar. If he did serve, so what anyway? He is now a pathological liar and would eagerly start another war to get elected or stay in power. That creep needs to retire and leave the future to us. Screw him!!!
Too many "we luvs the militaryz" disclaimers in your piece, SilentPatriot. Let's call it what it is: McCain was a legacy/affirmative action hire who wrecked more planes than he actually landed safely. Like Bush, he went into his daddy's business. And like Bush, he sucked at it.
But that doesn't mean we should go after McCain's spotty record of achievement: Those who believe that McCain's a hero, rather than a survivor, won't have their belief shaken by oppo press.
There's enough other stuff to pin on ol' T-Rex Arms McCain without having to judge qualitatively his "service" to the Motherland. But, man, was he a shitty flyer.
ps: McCain finished in the bottom 10% of his class in HS and at Annapolis. Shit, it's a wonder anybody let him near a box-kite, let alone a carrier-based aircraft.
Let's see . . .
Privileged upbringing, mediocre (at best) academic record, attitude problems, military promotions facilitated by family influence, poor record as pilot, reputation as a hellraiser . . .
Sounds all too familiar.
Nope, I strongly disagree. What you're suggesting is similar to what Kerry decided to do when the Repugs swift-boated him. His failure to respond forcefully to their attacks on his military record when he ran for president in 2004 contributed to his defeat.
Why is it off limits to discuss the fact that McCain made lots of recorded propaganda that was then broadcast for other US soldiers to hear? Why is it off limits to discuss that McCain did this? McCain says that he made those tapes because of torture (a claim that has been repudiated by others who were there, but let's take McCain at his word for sake of argument) - implying that he didn't agree with them, but did them because he was forced to by use of torture... but now McCain is pro-torture?
Why is this off limits?
Samson- @ 3:
Extremely well said. One finds it bizarre why [so-called] liberals feel the need to wave the flag just as vigorously as their conservative colleagues. There is absolutely nothing heroic about McCain or any other American dropping napalm on civilians from 35,000 feet in the air. McCain said the very same thing in a 60 Minutes interview in the 1990s. This then begs the question why McCain has not been prosecuted for war crimes for incinerating civilians who never threatened anyone in these United States. Perhaps this explains the reason why the United States has decided not the join the International Criminal Court. American Exceptionalism at its finest [or worst].
Epinnoia @ 55:
You said it. Nail on the head.
McCain has been well paid for his service. He's lived at the top in the lap of luxury ever since. He's cheapening his war experience for votes. Please don't further reward him with the presidency.
Let's remember this--the most important thing in this election is defeating McCain.
We may not like it, but this is the hand we've been dealt: Dems bring up McCain's service and we're unpatriotic, America haters who don't understand "average" Americans who proudly served their country (although as someone pointed out earlier, a legacy son of Navy admirals isn't exactly "average"). The message gets repeated throughout the MSM and Obama loses. John W. McBush enters the White House on Jan. 20, 2009. Not exactly the way I want to start off the New Year.
In short, stay away from Vietnam and stick to the winning script: 1) McCain is a 3rd term for W. 2) Show the photograph of McCain hugging Bush. 3) Show the McCain clip from "Meet the Press" when he says he stands firmly with Bush on the "transcendent" issues of our time. 4) REPEAT
Hell, we're holding people as prisoners at gitmo for five to six years and some of them are innocent as hell. They have been tortured too. You would think McCain would be all about understanding what these people are going through and getting the innocent ones out as soon as possible.
Let's Not Go Down This Road @ 68:
Yes, I remember how those dynamics operated in 2004, when the whole Swiftboat thing backfired and Kerry beat the shit out of Bush in November.
Rusty The Dap of Death Shackleford @ 70:
The point is that, unlike Kerry, the MSM will come to McBush's defense. It's hypocritical. It's inconsistent. It's not right. But that's the way it is and we have to account for that fact when choosing to make/not make this an issue.
McCain has so many negatives that, if we stick to the winning strategy, then we send his ass back to Arizona and prevent 4 more years of neo-con artist policies. If we get off-track with Vietnam, then we shoot ourselves in the foot.
I just want to win!!!
SilentPatriot @ top
"Let me first start off by making absolutely clear that this is not intended in any way to be a “swift boat”-style attack on John McCain and his service."
Oh i wouldn't worry about any such *intent*. Haven't you heard? It's ok for us to do it now as long as the Republicans did it _first_. We've already started doing it – check it out:
"Let me say for the record that I am not particularly enamored of this line of questioning...
However, since the Republicans crossed this threshold during the Clinton administration..."
-Nicole Belle
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/04/mccains-past-infidelities-come-...
"Now, I should clarify that as far as I’m concerned, McCain’s marital difficulties and adultery aren’t especially significant in this campaign...
But therein lies the point: if Clinton’s personal history was a matter of tremendous national significance as a candidate and as a president..."
-Steve Benen
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/10/meet-john-mccains-wife-no-not-t...
Of course the Republicans are going to keep on doing stuff like this, but if you look closely there are warning signs. Here's one:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/11/gop-game-plan-when-in-doubt-go-...
Why stand on principles when hypocrisy is so much easier?
The sad thing is, there are still clowns on the networks that continue to spread the myth that he has some special sort of
national security chops. In reality he appears clueless about both the MidEast, and for that matter what he said a day or two ago, let alone a couple of years ago.
negativnein @ 26:
Absolutely I agree.
Uncle Sam @ 74:
Mostly cretins I'm afraid, and lots of creeps that see that $60,000 signing bonus and decide that killing is not such a bad thing after all.
McCain is USING his Military Service to promote his bid for the Presidency. So the voters need to see the entire record. Why withhold it when it is entirely honorable and couragous?
"What’s more, McCain’s refusal to publicly release his entire Navy record — something John Kerry did after his record came under scrutiny...."
That's right, SilentP, John Kerry did release his entire record. But not until after the election and months after the SwiftBoat attacks. So please don't try to use Kerry's actions to justify a demand that McCain release his records now. BS arguments of that sort do "our" side no good at all.
Rusty The Dap of Death Shackleford @ 70:
Amusing, but I wonder how effective the SwiftBoaters would have been if Kerry had released all his records immediately. Documents are a much better reply than words.
JTM @ 78:
We all wonder, don't we?
Exotic Blue Lensman @ 38:
Repugnantcons spent years destroying Bill Clinton for sex. Turnabout is fair play.
This article starts off saying: "Let me first start off by making absolutely clear that this is not intended in any way to be a “swift boat”-style attack on John McCain and his service. Despite what you may think of him as a Senator or Presidential candidate, there is no denying the fact that he served his country in ways that most of us could never even imagine. For that he deserves our utmost respect and appreciation."
Oh, really? I disagree. Just because your job is in the military does not make you an automatic "hero." When you fail in your mission and lose your multi-million dollar aircraft and wind up a POW, you are not automatically a hero. You are just out of the game.
The heroes of the day were the ones who successfully completed their missions and returned their aircraft, in the face of enemy fire or missiles, or bad weather, or whatever. Look at his flying record and note how many of the taxpayer's airplanes he was personally responsible for destroying. Do we consider all the NVA and VC prisoners WE held in OUR POW camps heroes? Really? Why not?!? Puh-leeeeze.
I have only little to say about this. Here in AZ there are a number of Vietnam vets I know who get awfully angry if you bring up McCain's heroism. I'll let the vets police their own.www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com is an example of which I speak...
Maybe they didn't want an admiral who helped make propaganda films for the Viet Cong?
Just a guess. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But it definitely deserves to be asked... and it definitely deserves to be addressed by John McCain.
If he just sat down and explained why he made propaganda films for the Viet Cong, I'm sure the American People would understand, and be just as forgiving of him as the Republican Party obviously has been to both himself and Jane Fonda.
angelo @ 56:
I agree with this view....enough of this automatic heroship for people that go to ginned up wars (phony Gulf of Tonkin report of being attacked) and for those who can claim innocence of intent..bombing everything and everybody in North Vietnam in contravention of the Geneva agreement regarding civilians and other non-military targets has no excuse available.I didnt accept the idea that this third world country was a threat, one that the French finally gave up on robbing their resources and prior to that the Japanese had tried to take it over..these people(Vietnamese) have been attacked for centuries and the propaganda excuse of the domino theory is exactly like the situation today,cultivate the image of a 'world' of enemies to fight (commies then,terrorists now) as an excuse to prop up,or overthrow, tin pot dictators, for reasons of WAR PROFITEERING.No other country in history has killed more civilians or overthrown more governments than the U.S. . I am proud of the fact that I did NOT go and kill the innocent in Vietnam,I wish everyone had done the same, and if I were of an acceptable age now I wouldnt go to Iraq and start killing there either. What did McCain add to the world? destruction and he wants more...'bomb bomb bomb Iran..' is a joke to him ,and in the Bosnia conflict what was his continued,and strident, call? ..that we really should greatly increase ...guess what...yeah..bombing. Mr. 50,000 ft. hero indiscriminately bombing all below from a safer distance up above than those on the ground.We need to stop calling acts like his 'heroic' and I do have a friend who was a POW IN both Korea AND Vietnam does he have better qualifications to lead this war mongering country? If this friend did lead this country it certainly wouldnt be to war.( I have to add that as a young black man in Arkansas going to Korea was his only option in life,only to return to the Jim Crow south afterwards, and still with no real prospects until Vietnam came along and it was an income) so who we hold as heroes says a lot about us.
"he served his country in ways most of us could never imagine"
You are so right. I would never imagine fighting a criminal war based on lies (such as in Vietnam) and dropping bombs hither and yon, undoubtedly killing civilians. Yep. Not in my imagination, thanks.
Why are we "obligated to honor his heroic service?" Why does anyone think this plane-crashing moron is a hero? Because he says he was tortured? Fuck him.
Bob @ 87:
Interesting. If McCain is a Hero for having been tortured, then what's that make Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
I would also like to know what made McCain's treatment 'torture' -- what did the Vietnamese do to McCain that's not being done to prisoners at Gitmo?
As Navy vet, I do not consider McGrampa a "hero" by ANY stretch of imagination. Destroying 4 military aircraft (prior to the 5th which resulted in his POW status) would have resulted in a swift kick in the arse out of the military. But McGrampa, just like herr dubyah, was born with a silver spoon and strong connections.
Epinnoia @ 88:
His flight status should have been revoked looooon before he was allowed to crash a 5th aircraft. In fact, with his grades, he shouldn't even been given the privilege of entering flight school. At best, McGrampa should have been in the Supply Corp.
Dr. (terrorist fist jab) Matt @ 89:
I knew a guy in the Army who got a serious sunburn. They gave him an Article 15. For a sunburn.
Interesting to me the the GOP established the rules of using military records of candidates as political weapons but now they don't want to play by their own rules.
McCain was serving in America's armed forces and following, what are still considered to be, lawful orders at the time. His capture and torture were and are part of the larger tragedy that was the Viet Nam war.
McCain's father and grandfather were both Navy admirals - he aspired to that position; yet, the service would never overlook, or forgive, his actions while a POW. The Navy pretty much cut him off, and he left to pursue politics. In politics, McCain has been a victim of his own party -- a tragically flawed man who has sold his principles to get his party's support. I believe his desire for the presidency has been driven in order to achieve a rank greater than those held by his father and grandfather. In many ways he, and his candidacy this year, are textbook classical tragic figures.
From a political standpoint, the issue of McCain's service record is a major looser for the Democratic party. Yes, the Republicans mocked and belittled Kerry's service, but for their base, and those leaning towards it, that mocking provided no disadvantage. For the Democrats, who have been framed as being anti-military, an attack on McCain's service simply plays into existing tropes. McCain has been desperately trying to shore up support among the Republican base. In doing so he has continually contradicted himself and taken up more and more far right positions. This is where the Democrats need to wage their campaign war - on the issues of the economy, foreign policy, government corruption, and the war. These are winning issues, McCain's service record is not.
Samson- @ 3:
Hero my butt the only way you can become a POW is to surrender
Samson- @ 7:
Thats comparable to Chimpy's 1988 RNC convention interview with that TV crew, claiming that if the TANG had been in Vietnam then maybe ot woudl have turned out better.
Of course Chimpy being AWOL most of the time and never qualifying (except in partying) , he didnt know that the pilots of the 147th TANG (his squadron) were there.
Epinnoia @ 88:
comfy cushions, whores, booze and a nice suite near the radio station.
its a hard life being 'Songbird'
pissed off patricia @ 23:
John McCain was well known for his joystick prowless. He liked to show the lovely ladies his skills at joystick manuvering at the Jacksonsville Beaches while his squadron was stationed at NAS JAX. He would let them play with his joystick while he drove around in his Corvette. And this was before he was shot down in Nam.
Admiral?
Without having had a command?
Not bloody likely.
I wouldn't mind taking a gander at his records myself...
mudshark @ 91:
Same thing happened to a couple of guys when I was in the Navy, 72-78. Official charge: Destroying Governemnt Property. To be fair, we WERE warned about getting sunburn and consequences to come if warnings were annoyed. Even the military doesn't like people missing work....
I think Democrats have to step as carefully as tap dancers in a minefield on this one.
The Constitution doesn't even require a military history, good or bad.
This will possibly be seen as tit-for-tat for Kerry's swiftboating.
mccain's been in Congress for decades, and keeps misspeaking on issues. He's provided more than enough ammunition.
mccain's war history may only be relevant to his raising Obama's "lack of experience" in foreign policy matters. And it's relevant if mccain ever accuses Obama of withholding any information.
It's a fact that he was in the cockpit of his armed fighter jet and that the rocket that started that massive fire on the USS Forrestal came from his direction.
What no one knows for sure is if he was the one that pulled the trigger on the missile, but many Forrestal vets think he did...
MC Cain would have never been captured in todays Navy. He would have never left the deck again after his first hard landing / crash . I watched that series Carrier on PBS. They grounded one guy for a minor hard landing. Probably has much to do with lessons learned and the price of a Super Hornet these days. Im not buying the "hero" crap either. I read a book about a Nam flier named Lance Sijohn who was a hero in my mind. He survived a month evading capture , all busted up, on a limestone karst. Cold cocked a Vietnamese doctor and crawled back into the jungle again after he was captured. He died at the Hanoi Hilton without ever giving them dick all . His fellow POWS attested to his courage and treatment and he was awarded the Medal Of Honor. I just dont see any comparison between Lance and MC Cain at all on those points. I agree though that left might lay off on his service record although he should release it all and let the chips fall. Still have his ass on the economy,Iraq, Bush ties and his flip flops anyways. The rest is just piling on the old man. Don't want the left to look like big bad meanies do we. I read an interesting hypothesis on the GOPs Plan B. Another false flag op like 911 or an attack on Iran, get MC Useless to step aside and the GOP can promote Powell or someone else as if they were Americas last chance for survival. They are desperate.
"make propaganda films for the Viet Cong?"
Say, where are McCain's anti-American films anyway, they'd make a great series of campaign advertisements.
ysbaddaden @ 100:
Yeah, you're right. Let's do a Pelosi and take anything like this off the table for exactly this reason. After all, everyone has so much more respect for the Democrats for not doing a tit-for-tat on impeachment.
A female fighter pilot at Grand Forks Air Base was drummed out for an adulterous affair, but her daddy wasn't an admiral.
McCain was tortured, made propaganda films; so he knows firsthand that torture is effective.
Military officers who don't continue to advance are expected to resign. If you know your performance will bar you from making admiral, it's time to run for office.
McCain did not decide where to drop a bomb, whether to drop any bombs, how to pay for the bombs being dropped, nor haw to negotiate an end to the hostilities. His military career in no way prepared nor qualified him for the Presidency.
Of course this should be a campaign issue. His entire military record should be released. Of course, like Dubya's, it will probably be scrubbed beforehand. But then, the Pentagon brass that are very apprehensive about having an incompetent hothead as Commander in Chief might not want to go along with the sanitization.
Sven @ 33:
It's not a cheap shot to hold him to the same standards that were expected of others. Kerry was expected to release his records why shouldn't Mccain? If those records reveal some embarrassing facts then just let them speak for themselves, no need to mount a swiftboating campaign.
Comrade Rutherford @ 103:
McHoChiMinh told Vietnam if they release the films in their archives that demonstrated his willing collaboration they will never get preferred trading partner status. Then George W. Bush went to Vietnam and cut the deal.
http://nationalwriterssyndicate.com/content/view/349/2/
Why are you attacking the war hero John McCain?
Is there really "no denying the fact that he served his country in ways that most of us could never even imagine."? And "For that he deserves our utmost respect and appreciation"? So you then attack his honesty with respect to his service record?
You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
He is either a war hero or he isn't. He is either honest or he isn't. If he served dishonorably and deserves condemnation then condemn him. If he didn't then shut up.
You play into the narrative of the other side by qualifying your legitimate attack with a compliment. Get it?
I'm guessing that this might be the reason why McCain doesn't want his naval records released or questioned.
"...there is no denying the fact that he served his country in ways that most of us could never even imagine."
Uh hum?? How does being a POW serve anything? How do we know that this guy who crashed five (5) planes during his distinguished "Service" didn't hot-dog himself into POW sainthood. Let him release his service records,,, All his military records; not just those few pages of boilerplate we have.
If he was applying for a job as a cop, in most places he'd be required to sign complete authorization to release military records be considered.
Is an application for President any less important?
Let's Not Go Down This Road @ 68:
I want this info in my pocket when the republicunts start bitching about Obama never having served.
Let's skip the trivia, and get to the heart of the matter:
Did McCain announce his intentions to run for President in kindergarten or not? Did he have any Muslim teachers? Is that lump contagious?
The record should be scrutinized. It doesn't have to be a swift boat approach. Leave that shady tactic to them. But absolutely, his record needs to be looked at. Those who were imprisoned with him in the Hanoi Hilton should also be interviewed. I think that some of them have already spoken out. Poke around a bit, you might be surprised at what you find. If all is on the up and up, then mccain comes off like the war hero he has been elevated to. If other facts surface, then the american people really do need to know. The man after all wants to be president.
mudshark @ 91:
Hey, I remember when they told us in boot camp that a sunburn serious enough to keep us from duty could be grounds for charges, "Destruction of Gov't. Property". No shit.
But, hey, if you're the spawn of the rich and powerful.....
Comrade Rutherford @ 101:
And he got out of that jet and off the burning deck while others battled the fire and saved their fellow crewmen.
Prediction: If the full record comes out, it will show that McCain did not have the "disposition" for command. The known public accounts of anger management problems are probably manifestations of a less socially acceptable mood disorder and the accompanying public stigma. He has to keep this quiet--it would be a deal-breaker for it to be revealed. Kerry had nothing to fear--McCain has everything to fear from the full record.
If he was a POW for 5 years I would bet he is brained washed as was the Manchurian Candidate
When one wants to be "Commander in Chief", it is well to inquire what command experience one has.
Haven't heard of McCain's command experience. But, it seems clear from the Iraq war fiasco that he has an "enemy recognition" problem in not recognizing that America's fight was with bin Laden, not Saddam.
Here's something it would be nice to know more about: many of us have seen video of McCain bailing out of his plane on the flight deck of the USS Forrestal as a fire erupts behind him. As I recall, it was ignited by a bomb dropping from a parked plane onto the deck. Many died.
Here's the point: a friend of mine works in a VA hospital and reports that some of the patients there were on the Forrestal at the time and that McCain caused that fire by breaking protocol and being in the cockpit of his plane when bombs were being loaded. Think that might be in his file? Even if we can't find that, how difficult would it be to discover what the appropriate procedures actually were? Anyone know anything more about this?
ferrofluid (Obama 08) @ 95:
I almost for sorry for George and Barbara Bush.
Keith Gabryelski @ 5:
Nitpicking?
The man is not only running for Prez. (like the dipshit deserter Bush, who, like McSame, was given a free pass thru flight school thanks to Daddy) and he also graduated in the bottom 1% of his class.
Nitpicking?
Even though this bottom feeder was the very picture of the flamboyant, aggressive fighter jock, he was TERRIBLE in school and his judgement was often times questionable, kind of like his comments regarding Iran and Iraq, to say of his domestic policies.
Nitpicking? A guy who was a terrible pilot and even worse student was sent upon graduation to the premier flying outfit in the U.S. Navy, and this somehow is irrelevant, when we were treated to daily smears about the honorable record of John Kerry in 2004 instead?
Move along?
Why don't you move along.
gonzo88 says, "Here’s something it would be nice to know more about: many of us have seen video of McCain bailing out of his plane on the flight deck of the USS Forrestal as a fire erupts behind him. As I recall, it was ignited by a bomb dropping from a parked plane onto the deck. Many died. Here’s the point: a friend of mine works in a VA hospital and reports that some of the patients there were on the Forrestal at the time and that McCain caused that fire by breaking protocol and being in the cockpit of his plane when bombs were being loaded. Think that might be in his file? Even if we can’t find that, how difficult would it be to discover what the appropriate procedures actually were? Anyone know anything more about this?"
Here's where you can get the low down gonzo88
http://www.wclt.com/news/articledetail.cfm?articleid=23261
They swiftboated Kerry in '04. Fuck em'.
But where are we? How is something like this not public property????? We PAY for it!
Really, is it necessary to start a post off so weakly? "I don't mean to offend, but..." Come on, be strong! You have truth on your side!
McCain's Wikipedia bio notes, "In early 1981, he was told he would be made rear admiral; he declined the prospect, as he already made plans to run for Congress and said he could "do more good there."
That's unlikely. If he had "been told" he was on the O-7 promotion list, he would have some official notification. Maybe he dreamed of being a Rear Admiral like his father and grandfather, but I doubt it actually happened. Certainly he would have stayed in just to get the star and flag.
Yet it could have happened. The Iran hostages were released in 1981 and it would have made good politicical theater for the Reagan administration to find some former POW and promote him just for show. Michael Deaver could surely have engineered that move.
Truth B Told @ 27:
Jim Stiner @ 122:
Che's Lounge @ 8:
angelo @ 56:
If you have a video clip of this you'll start a firestorm!
rooth terrorist fist jab baby mama hussein @ 114:
Not to mention the documented FACT that prior to crash in N. Vietnam he had already crashed THREE navy jets, look it up.
I was in Vietnam, so I have an internet site that will open your eye as to what J.McCain was really like as a prisoner of war (http://www.Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain) check it out it will opean your eyes.
you know, i really don't care about this topic.
Whoaaa. That picture of McCain. Did they give him one of those orange spray painted tans, or did someone add some color to his crypt keeper pallor with Photoshop?
Didn't McCain also graduate in the bottom 10 people of his Annapolis graduating class...out of about 800 graduates?
blue @ 2:
Wow, Blue, I don't know, insulting Tweety by implying he's a woman may be going too far. I mean, FEMALE? Does anyone truly deserve so horrifying an insult?
one tricked pony,
only a fool would have wanted to go to vietnam. it was a clusterfuck with no chance of success designed to enrich a few at the expense of many just like this shit in iraq. mccain went because he felt he had to serve in the family tradition. guys like that had a hard on for vietnam because it was "the only the war they had". their fathers had won the big one and they wanted to do the same, even if this one wasn't worth winning. read about north vietnams secret weapon here http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine06132008.html.
Che's Lounge @ 8:
------------------------------
They couldn't have been that desperate since Bush's test scores had to be raised to 25% so he could pass his flight test at first and then they let him check off the box that he refused to go to Vietnam if his country needed him.
Personally I find this whole attack on anything to do with his military record as offensive as I found the republican's attacks on John Kerry. Going after McCain this way means the democrats who engage in this tactic are as bad as if not worse than the Swiftboaters because you all decried their actions against Kerry but are now engaging in it yourselves against McCain.
And how can this be the actions of a group who are running on the promise of change with Obama when you are repeating the same disgusting tactics of old? Do you not have enough good things to say about Obama that can get him elected without attacking McCain's military record like some new democratic swiftboaters of 08 following in the steps of the 04 ones you hated for attacking Kerry's record ?
blue @ 2:
No shit, lol! Don't hold yer breath!
odanny @ 121:
Yes, he's running for president -- and we should scrutinize him.
Scrutinizing whether he declined a promotion or was never offered it is SMALL POTATOES.
In addition it doesn't stick -- it is not only un-worthy of effort, it will not yield benefit.
Scrutinizing him about his current stance on Iraq WILL stick. Scrutinizing his claim that he
asked for Rumsfeld's resignation (which he never did -- he said Rumsfeld is wrong but the
president should make the call). Scrutinizing him on almost anything else is useful.
This is not.
And bringing up swiftboating of Kerry is not an honest argument. You may be upset by
the scum that did these things (and the fukkers that wore purple band-aids at the
Republican convention) but this is not a reason to sacrifice our attempts to make
honest arguments that actually help our cause.
"Hi, I was shot down and captured during an unpopular war which the United States did not win. Let me tell you how to be a success in war."
Truth B Told @ 27:
You mean the " wet start " that touched off a Zuni missle which struck a wing tank of another aircraft which had a 1000lb'er which that blew a hole in the deck killing 167 people , before the body count was done McCain was flown to another ship ! .
I must disagree strongly with the notion that anyone who serves in combat automatically deserves our respect and admiration. Why? In McCains case, his service consisted of dropping bombs on the Vietnamese and probably causing lots of collateral damage in the process. He lived the life of ease typical of a flyboy on an aircraft carrier. McCain was no grunt living in the muck and blood in a foxhole. Finally, most wars are ones of opportunity and those fighting in them are not "protecting freedom" or the United States from attack. Vietnam certainly falls into this category.
So, while I am amazed that McCain could endure what he did as a POW..I reject the idea that I must respect and admire his personal decision to fight in an immoral and unnessary war.
Janet @ 17:
He got a 100% disability rating because the North Vietnamese beat him so badly and viciously that he was unable to raise his hands and arms above his shoulders, something that you need to be able to do in the cockpit of an aircraft, since some of the controls are at or above shoulder height.
I will also say this, I saw the footage of the USS Forrestal fire when I was undergoing ADJ training at NATTC Millington, it's a requirement regarding the seriousness of flight deck fires onboard aircraft carriers, and there's nothing in that footage to indicate that McCain was at fault. A Zuni rocket triggered, there's no way McCain could have done it because there's a built-in safety device in the aircraft called a weight-on-wheels-switch to prevent just that kind of occurrence.
Let's try to avoid these hysterical accusations against someone that have no merit, or proof. That kind of crap angers me, because it's straight out of the Republican playbook, smear someone with some half-baked accusation, regardless of what the actual facts are, because dammit all that's important is sliming your political opponents candidate. Don't be like them.
Here's the actual USS Forrestal footage on You Tube (remove spaces before and after slash to use link): www.youtube.com / watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I
"this is in no way intended to impugn McCain’s military service or the years of torture he endured at the hands of his barbaric captors"
Well this comment sure as hell intends to do exactly that.
McCain was engaged in trying to kill people for the crime of living in a nation who's government subscribed to ideas the US found distasteful. In service of that crime, employed by an agent that requires the suspension of personal moral judgment as a condition of service (an employ he entered into willingly), Mr. McCain was shot down and captured. Not being summarily executed for his act, he was subjected to inhumane treatment. Not to excuse, but gosh, who could have thought the North Vietnamese could be so petty and so mean? Barbarism begets barbarism, I'm sad to say, but creating hero myths from moral depravity seems shakey ground upon which to create hero myths.
John McCain is as distanced from the status of hero as is possible. Simply put he is a murderer who got caught and was punished for it. While I abhore the method it's difficult to dispute the justification.
Let's not forget service in the commission of a crime is not heroism. Not then, not now.
Bad usage of crime in my above post, and I failed to differentiate between McCain's and NV. My apologies for the poor writing.
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