Cloture Vote on FISA Passes, 80-15
The FISA Cloture vote just passed. The Senate will now consider the motion to proceed with the bill, then they'll head to the bill itself (corrected procedural details, h/t and thanks to CBolt). Various motions will be put forward to strip immunity, odds are they will fail. Then a number of the 80 who voted to restrict debate will vote against FISA so they can say they were against the bill. However this was the real vote, and the rest is almost certainly nothing but kabuki for the rubes.
Obama and McCain were both absent, as was Clinton. Unimpressive, but unsurprising, though I suppose I'm disappointed by Clinton (Obama has made it clear he didn't intend to try and stop the bill.) Clinton and Obama will claim there was no point since it wasn't close. But, with their leadership, it might well have gone the other way.
Cenk Uygur and Ben Mankiewicz of The Young Turks interview Russ Feingold on how egregious all this FISA posturing is for Democratic values.
Cenk Ugyur: Alright, so let's get to the specifics of what's going to happen in the Senate, Senator Feingold, which is, you have promised to do a filibuster of this bill. How is the logistics of that going to work out? Does that come up first, and do you think you're going to be able to muster out 40 senators on your side to be able to do it? Forty one senators? Can you tell us the latest on that?
Senator Russ Feingold: Sure. Well I'm not optimistic that we're going to have 41 people stand tall on this, because I'm very concerned about the number of Democrats approaching this. But we've already started the process of what people normally call a filibuster. I mean, normally bills are just allowed to come up. We said, "No. We're going to make you wait two days, and you have to actually win a motion to proceed to the bill. Sixty votes, which happens today." So they first have to do that. Then we're going to talk about the bill for a while. A number of people wanted us to just allow it to go through with a couple of hours of debate. We said no. Senator Dodd and I have both spoken at length, and we both want to talk some more. There are also a number of people that want to offer amendments. And they said, "No, let's block that." We said no to that. They also asked if we could just let the bill have a final vote, and we said, "No. You're going to have a cloture petition. You're going to have to get 60 votes to have the final vote and cut off amendments." So we're going to demand that as well. So basically, what we're talking about is making sure they don't jam it through today or first thing tomorrow, but there will be a few days. The truth is, they would be able to stop this filibuster with 60 votes by the end of the week in any event. But we believe this is important enough to make them go through that process. That is the nature of the filibuster.
[snip]Ben Mankiewicz: If there were...what I was getting at there, or what I was about to ask is, if there were a movement in the leadership of the Senate to do this, could it be done? Or is it...
Senator Russ Feingold: Well, I think that would help. It would have helped if the Speaker not come down in favor of this thing. In fact, the majority leader has said that, of the Senate, he's going to vote against the bill. So that helps. But, you know, there's still a whole bunch of people that might be a little surprising that, who have been with us all the way, who are saying, "Well now it's time to do this because it's a compromise. It's at least an improvement." That's not true. It's absolute window dressing.
Don't let up on your phone calls. Christy at FDL has other suggestions for actions you can take to make your voice heard.
UPDATE: Scalia v. Scalia...Dahlia Lithwick compares Scalia's arguments between the DC gun ban and Boumediene:
The headline is that the court decided 5-4 (no mushy plurality here) that the D.C. handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement violate the individual right to bear arms as protected under the Second Amendment. But I must first pass along this rather brilliant observation from professor Stephen Wermiel from American University, who wonders why none of the dissenters cautioned the majority that today's decision "will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed." (Boumediene, Scalia, J. dissenting.)
A vote which will live in infamy!
It's time to take names and excact punishment!
I'm sick of these spinless Democrats.
VOTE THE BUMS OUT!
Pathetic, Obama lost my respect. Just another spineless democrat. No wonder Republicans trample all over these fools and rule the country, even when they are not in power. Both parties are tools of corporations. This is very evident here and Obama's message of change is just rhetoric. I am pissed off that a lot of people fell for it (including me) :( I want the money I donated back, I am going to get it back
When will the country start listening to men like Feingold who time after time prove to be correct and accurate in their votes and decisions for this country and its advancement.
Thanks for standing up for us, even if it was a lost cause, Russ.
Obama and Clinton fell flat on their disingenuous faces with this one.
I was thinking of donating to Obama, but was waiting for the right message from him.
I think I got it.
Let us all resolve together to sit on our hands and do nothing or maybe write a stern letter to Santa Claus. He really cares. Hey Santa, can I pweez hab sum fweedumb?
No, Clinton voted against it the first time and the failed leadsership of Obama is to blame.
She has to follow his failed leadership for that unity crap.
Get freaking real and blame the spineless dem leadership.
You rolled the dice on Obama and came up with crap.
What's that you say about "change" Obama??????? The pussycrats show their true colors once again. Useless, spineless, defenseless!
DID YOU NOTICE THAT "I'M AGAINST IMMUNITY" HARRY REID VOTED WITH THE 80???
WHAT A TURD!
pps @ 3:
Lollimom @ 5:
Me too! And I'm keeping my money in my pocket.
obama has turned pathetic rather quickly.
or maybe he always was, and only compared to clinton did he inspire.
his failure to lead, hell even be on the right side, on this issue is very telling: what obama's position says to me is as long as you are 'important' or powerful enough you can expect to get away with breaking the law.
and, futher, obama is closer to bush than i had realized when it comes to invading our right to privacy.
obama is fashioning himself into quite the DLC/corporate candidate.
My only surprise so many voted nay. 15!
I did not think we would get into double figures.
My bet was 87-8.
My hands are tied
They'll get my vote
But as for my dollar
Not one more note
"Just passed...."???
Try to avoid plagiarizing ... er, cross-posting this sort of thing unless you can do so within a few hours, not days.
Thanks a lot, Barry.
You changed, man. You used to be about the music!
Obama and Clinton have both changed their tune on this issue since earlier this year. They aren't any different than anythin or anyone before. It is painful to admit, but we've been duped. Choosing McStain or Obama or Clinton is like choosing between crappy beers. Would you like a cold bush or a bush lite? These people are pissing in our mouths and we stand there gaping and lapping.
Amerika is just dead and gone. Doesn't really matter who the hell we put in office.
This is change we can believe in? What a mees we have......
Where is Ross Perot when we need him ?
Let this be a lesson that some corporate interests in this country have EVERYBODY in their pockets -- telcom, oil, energy, to name a few.
I would also like Barack to issue a statement explaining his position on this issue and why he didn't vote.
Obummer flip flopped 3 times on this vote.
Is that a record?
Have you heard ??!! Nancy Pelosi and the democrats in congress decided to help McCain win the election so that they don't appear weak on fighting terrorism and national security !!!
If I had computer skills I'd make a video of President McCain at different venues and the musical accompaniment would be Carol King's ♪"It's too late baby now..it's too late though we really did try to make it." ♪...scene two : Obama supporters crying ...scene three ; McCain being sworn in as President ; scene 4 : Hillary supporters crying : Scene 5 ; news flash update about the IRAN WAR : Scene 6 Chris Dodd looking down ,Scene 6 McCain supporters cheering : Scene 7 ; people like you and me in FEMA concentration Camps ♪IT'S TOO LATE BABY NOW IT'S TOO LATE ♪ Scene 8 EARTH BLOWING UP
Well, I'm just glad that the Democrats brought this war to an end as promised.
Not voting to protect the Constitution. At last, something Hillary, Obama and McCain can agree on. I am sorry, but not surprised, to see my state's Democratic senator (Webb) voted for this damned thing.
A year from now out-of-power Republicans may suddenly rediscover that they care about the Constitution and the rule of law while attacking President Obama and the Democratic majority. And our defense is going to be what...?
Barack to issue a statement explaining his position on this issue and why he didn’t vote.
He never votes on anything that is controversial from his time in the Illinois Senate until now. He has a stellar record of "present" or "no vote".
Obama is moving to the center, what else is new folks? This has been happening since John McCain was born.
New Politics? Puuuuhhlease! I don't care though, I'm a liberal who would vote for Obama anyway. What benefit does Obama get in voting with the minority on this issue? None.
Voting for immunity and joining the spiney 15 would have netted him "cool" points with the wide left like Moveon, DKos, and HuffingtonPost but those votes are already in the bag. I know that, you know that, and he knows that. Sure they may be mad at him for a couple days but it'll pass.
Can American citizens gang up together and storm Washington DC with pitch-forks, axes and torches ?
Or are those kinds of revolutions no longer possible ?
So the Dems are afraid to stand up because they think it will help them win elections? Does this kind of anger generated (from those who are actually paying attention) really benefit them? WE are the ones who will be most active in helping them get elected but we are the ones they are pissing off. Conversely, wouldn't standing up for what is right create an up swell of support far surpassing the "don't rock the boat" theory?
I don't understand the logic AT ALL.
i don't think i can stomach anymore obama rallies... seeing him make all these promises about change, about getting special interests of of washington, etc. are all complete bullshit.
when the rubber hits the road obama is just like all the other spineless dems, folding like a cheap suit and refusing to stand up for what he knows is right.
i wonder if time warner's $250,000.00 donation swayed obama's vote? oh, wait, he didn't even show up to vote. phhpt. friggin pathetic. i am so disgusted and no longer geared up to volunteer my time and money for such a follower.
obama is a traitorous piece of shit. ron paul is right. there's no difference
between obama and mcbane.
As an Obama supporter...I must admit, I'm quite disappointed in him for not opposing this.
Not cool man...not cool at all.
Obama missed another important vote?
SHOCKING.
Maybe he didn't get enough notice...again.
Coward.
negativnein @ 30:
I think that's just a weeee bit over the top, lol!
There's quite a big difference actually.
I just threw out my two Obama shirts. I ripped my Obama bumper sticker off my car. I’m finished with him. He didn’t even have the courage to vote. FU Obama!!!
what fucking constitution?
obama -the money ends
For fucks sake! Clinton has nothing to gain or lose at this point so fucking lay off her! You should be more outraged by that pussy Obama! Change my ass! You people have doomed us to a second rate idiot who will not stand up for nothing! With every flip flop I hate the guy everyday more and more. I'm still voting for Clinton because she's not a two faced, lying, opportunist! Well maybe and opportunist but she didn't try to hide that fact!
26 Chris Gamble Says:
"Voting for immunity and joining the spiney 15 would have netted him “cool” points with the wide left like Moveon, DKos, and HuffingtonPost but those votes are already in the bag."
i wouldn't be so sure those votes are a given.
not for this guy at least.
I can't believe people are actually shocked that Obama missed a vote.
Where were you during the Primary process?
Anyway, like I said before, he doesn't gain anything by voting with the brave minority so there is no reason to be mad at the fellow. It's good politics.
Obama is a fraud and punked millions of people.
Both candidates are corporate Senators and nothing will change.
The genocide in Iraq for oil will continue.
Stop giving him money.
Obama missed another important vote?
SHOCKING.
Maybe he didn’t get enough notice…again.
Coward.
--------
Repeat after me - he never votes on anything controversial.
That way in the future he can say "I was against/for (fill in the blank)" and other various B.S.
This is the basis of the Democrat's problem - they keep conceding the point before making any argument.
"Well, I think we need to spy on terrorists ..."
Except FISA has always allowed for surveillance, and always had protections against abuse.
It is only the Bush Administration that has argued the law is problematic, that it's too much of a hassle to obtain warrants (even after the fact).
It shows that, really, all that's needed to step across the line of fascism is to name an enemy. The scared sheep that pass for an informed citizenry will bleat and baaaa and kowtow even to proven liars and incompetents.
Kudos to Dodd, Feingold, and their colleagues who stood with them and seem to understand that we crossed the line, and it's up to us to take a conscious step back, rather than cover crap up and think that will be sufficient.
Neither party responds to much of anything except corporate interests. So it's either revolution or voting with your feet.
Chris Gamble Says:
Anyway, like I said before, he doesn’t gain anything by voting with the brave minority so there is no reason to be mad at the fellow. It’s good politics.
-----
The Constitution is just a G.D. piece of paper to you, too?
38 Chris Gamble Says:
"is no reason to be mad at the fellow. It’s good politics."
for you maybe.
not for me.
The pragmatic position is that the FISA bill was not going to be stopped. With Jilting Joe aboard, the Republicans could muster close to 50 votes in the Senate. There was no way the Democrats could win a cloture vote. The FISA bill only takes away the threat of civil suits for the communication industry, there is no protection for with respect to criminal charges.
The truth is Obama has begun to move to the center for the general election. Do we really want our candidate to be hobbled by demanding all his positions be to the left. That is the position McCain is in right now. He is still trying to win over that 23% of Republicans that still love Bush. McCain tried to move to center on Iraq, when he said that he would have the troops out by 2013. Obama went at him directly on Iraq and McCain was forced to the far right side of his party on the Iraq issue. Because of the lengthy back and forth discussion between Obama and McCain on Iraq, McCain is anchored with an unpopular position. Do we really want to damage Obama's chances to be elected President in the name of a lost cause?
Sometimes a candidate has to be trusted. Unless of course there is a consensus that it would be alright to have a President McCain in 2009. I for one think a McCain Presidency as unthinkable. I believe that Obama should be fully supported and maybe with his 50 state strategy, the Democrats will win a working majority in Congress. A virtual 50/50 split with the Republicans makes passing legislation difficult. Quibbling among ourselves during an election is typically how Democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I though Feingold and Dodd were filibustering.
Paul Says:
Sometimes a candidate has to be trusted.
------
That is why we are in this mess. Remember the:
Going to bring integrity back to the White House?
Well, I guess that's what happens when you have only ONE political party in a, ahem, Democratic country.
The Repugs are wrong, Obama is not 'inexperienced'. He does exactly what is expected of our politicians by the corporations who run our fascist country.
The bloom is off the Barack rose for me. He gets no donation from me. You don't protect my constitutional rights, you don't get my money.
Completely agree with Paul on this one. Nonetheless, my enthusiasm has been dampened, and that I can not help. I think Obama could have taken a stand on this issue without seriously threatening his candidacy, whereas I completely agree with the pragmatism of rejecting public funding.
Paul @ 45:
Ok...I feel slightly less shitty about Obama missing the vote...slightly...
Chris Gamble @ 38:
"Good politics"...Bad leadership.
Sound familiar?
Chris Gamble @ 26:
Aside from your focus on the political motivations, how do you feel about your fourth amendment rights going away?
If this vote was over---say---your freedom-of-speech right, and they took that away, would you glibly give us the political reasons that made it the right thing to do, politically?
When I hear people like you and Paul #45 put a political spin on why it's sensible to destroy the Constitution bit by bit, I visualize the scenario where they take you away for saying the wrong thing...and I stand by, I refrain from "quibbling", and I say nothing.
38 Chris Gamble Says:
>“is no reason to be mad at the fellow. It’s good politics.”
>for you maybe.
>not for me.
Is it good politics to allow uninhibited corporate crime, endless military spending, exploitation of the weakest, feeble healthcare, 3rd world education?
I'm more disappointed in Obama than Clinton. Obama took a strong and unequivocal stand against Telecom amnesty during the primaries, and followed through on it in the vote. Clinton offered a mealy-mouthed half-hearted dissent against telecom amnesty, and previously ducked out of voting when push came to shove. In fact, the difference between the two stood as one of the defining arguments when discussing the race at that time. So needless to say, I'm very unhappy about this.
This does not change my preference in the election, but it certainly takes the edge off of my enthusiasm for it. One more step away from pulling the lever with a smile, and one more step toward the tradition of pulling the lever while wearing a clothespin over my nostrils.
Paul @ 45:
Sometimes a candidate has to be trusted eh? What about the people in the center that vote for him in the center, then find out he actually super-left?! If we "trust" Obama, we expect other voters to trust him otherwise. The whole way to Washington requires such Machiavellian tendencies I want no part of it. Sorry Michelle, I'm not proud of this country.
Respecting the Constitution and the 4th Amendment is a 'liberal' view? News to me.
45 Paul Says:
"Do we really want our candidate to be hobbled by demanding all his positions be to the left."
phhpt, this is exactly the problem with the Dems today
hobbled by the left? that is friggin infuriating.
anger at obama's capitulating to corporate demands and being ok with domestic spying is not some crazy-leftist screed.
hobbled by the left? grrrrr
hope for country... fading
Since when does the Constitution equal the left? I could see if Obama supported impeachment he would be catering to the left but not the Constitution.
Chris Gamble @ 26:
No, it won't. My vote means something to me. He lost my vote.
Paul @ 45:
"Do we really want to damage Obama’s chances to be elected President in the name of a lost cause?"
Lost causes. You tell me.
So Mr. Butt wants to be president and as per usual he misses a critical vote. Something he did all last year. BUT GET THIS.....It is Hillary Clinton who this article blames. Sexism is alive and well in this country.
Every time smirking crap crap does something they are still blaming Hillary Clinton. What did she do lock him in his room and refuse to let him vote. Guess so.....I think wanker blue pill olbermann will say she is the worst person in the world. And damn it all to hell isn't that getting old, old old.
Has the massive outpouring of outrage, voiced in the last few days, died down to the faint apathetic whisper yet?
Is Obama off the hook now, with all the people who were outraged at his lack of leadership, bs statements and blatant kow-towing to those determined to gut the Constitution?
Are those crickets I’m hearing?
It seems now that doing the right thing, standing up for the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, are now Far-Left Extremist views, and have no place in the current political scheme of things.
Sad. Very very sad.
Lollimom @ 53:
My 4th Amendment rights have already been butchered by PA 1 and 2. I'm interested in getting a blue guy in the White House. Healing can only begin once that happens.
So the lying bush is going to be replaced by the lying obummer.
Nice move.
So let me just say fuuuuuck it all.
Wake me if & when someone named Robespierre is running for prez. That's a prospect I can get excited about.
Olbermann going to have a special comment on Obama tonight?
You told us, Sir.......
You told us, Sir.......
Change you can believe in, Sir?
Going to bring back home, Sir?
Nah, did not think so.
Paul @ 45:
You mean so we can get more loyal dems like Pelosi, Webb and McCaskill, all who benefitted from the mandate of 06 only to use it to screw us?
Stranded @ 60:
Like an angry Clinton supporter from few weeks back I'd put money on you coming home before November.
"Obama backpedals on
NAFTA; now he's for it
Obama campaigned against NAFTA during the primaries. Now he's backpedaling and reassuring Wall Street about that same policy. "
"Daily Kos' Moulitsas: Worried that Obama may be a spineless Democrat
"We may worry he is just another one of these spineless Democrats who are more afraid of controversy in doing the right thing than they are in actually doing the right thing."
Tossed the fighter for another spineless dem.
Told ya.
Stranded @ 60:
You'll consent to a McCain "GWB-3" administration by default because of this? Talk about self-destructive!
A little perspective wouldn't hurt. As bad as this betrayal is (and it is a betrayal) the prospect of McCain is so much worse, that passively allowing it to happen is an even larger betrayal by several orders of magnitude.
We'll have to find another way to voice our displeasure, if we aren't going to just surrender.
Obamas real middle name was:
"Nancy"
Glenn Greenwald
Thursday June 26, 2008 07:22 EDT
Keith Olbermann: Then and now
(updated below)
On January 31 of this year, Keith Olbermann donned his most serious face and most indignant voice tone to rail against George Bush for supporting telecom immunity and revisions to FISA. In a 10-minute "Special Comment," the MSNBC star condemned Bush for wanting to "retroactively immunize corporate criminals," and said that telecom immnity is "an ex post facto law, which would clear the phone giants from responsibility for their systematic, aggressive and blatant collaboration with [Bush's] illegal and unjustified spying on Americans under this flimsy guise of looking for any terrorists who are stupid enough to make a collect call or send a mass email."
Olbermann added that telecom amnesty was a "shameless, breathless, literally textbook example of Fascism -- the merged efforts of government and corporations that answer to no government." Noting the numerous telecom lobbyists connected to the Bush administration, Olbermann said:
This is no longer just a farce in which protecting telecoms is dressed up as protecting us from terrorists conference cells. Now it begins to look like the bureaucrats of the Third Reich, trying to protect the Krupp family, the industrial giants, re-writing the laws of Germany for their benefit.
Olbermann closed by scoffing at the idea that telecom amnesty or revisions to FISA were necessary to help National Security:
There is not a choice of protecting the telecoms from prosecution or protecting the people from terrorism, Sir. This is a choice of protecting the telecoms from prosecution or pretending to protect the people from terrorists. Sorry, Mr. Bush, the eavesdropping provisions of FISA have obviously had no impact on counter-terrorism, and there is no current or perceived terrorist threat the thwarting of which could hinge on an email or phone call that is going through Room 641 of AT&T in San Francisco.
Strong and righteous words indeed. But that was five whole months ago, when George Bush was urging enactment of a law with retroactive immunity and a lessening of FISA protections. Now that Barack Obama supports a law that does the same thing -- and now that Obama justifies that support by claiming that this bill is necessary to keep us Safe from the Terrorists -- everything has changed.
Last night, Olbermann invited Newsweek's Jonathan Alter onto his show to discuss Obama's support for the FISA and telecom amnesty bill (video of the segment is here). There wasn't a syllable uttered about "immunizing corporate criminals" or "textbook examples of Fascism" or the Third Reich. There wasn't a word of rational criticism of the bill either. Instead, the two media stars jointly hailed Obama's bravery and strength -- as evidenced by his "standing up to the left" in order to support this important centrist FISA compromise:
OLBERMANN: Asked by "Rolling Stone" publisher, Jann Wenner, about how Democrats have cowered in the wake of past Republican attacks, Senator Obama responding, quote, "Yeah, I don't do cowering." That's evident today in at least three issues . . .
Senator Obama also refusing to cower even to the left on the subject of warrantless wiretapping. He's planning to vote for the FISA compromise legislation, putting him at odds with members of his own party . . . But first, it's time to bring in our own Jonathan Alter, also, of course, senior editor of "Newsweek" magazine.
Good evening, Jon.
JONATHAN ALTER, NEWSWEEK: Hi, Keith.
OLBERMANN: "Yeah, I don't do cowering." This is not just the man, but the campaign?
ALTER: Yes. This is part of the message that is consistent across the last couple weeks and it comes down to one word -- strength. The United States is not going to elect a president that perceives to be as weak. You look weak if you're flip-flopping. You look weak if you're not taking actions that seem to be securing the United States against terrorists. And you look weak if you don't fight back against your political adversaries.
OLBERMANN: But this cuts, I mean, this terminology cuts in more than one direction here. Not cowering to Republicans is one thing in the Democratic, recent Democratic history, it's a thing that I think anybody who has a "D" near their name cheers, but not cowering to the left, not going along with the conventional, the new conventional thinking on the FISA bill, that's something altogether different, isn't it?
ALTER: Yes. I don't really think it is. It was only a matter of time before the left was disappointed in Barack Obama, at least in a limited way. No politician is ever going to do everything that somebody likes.
And I think some folks in the netroots in particular on this FISA bill who are, you know, pulling their hair out over this, they have to realize, he's always been a politician, he'll always be a politician, and politics is the art of the possible. And he's a legislator. He knows that you can't always get everything that you want in a bill, even if he personally believes that the immunity for Telcoms is a bad idea. The larger idea of the bill was important.
And I actually think one of the big points, Keith, that hasn't been made about this bill is that currently, as of last August, since last August, we've been operating in an unconstitutional environment, clear violation of the Fourth Amendment.
So, there was tremendous urgency to get the FISA court back into the game. And does this bill do it imperfectly? Yes. But it does do it and it restores the Constitution, which is a point that's not getting made very much.
Leave aside the fact that Jonathan Alter, desperate to defend Obama, doesn't have the slightest idea of what he's talking about. How can a bill which increases the President's authority to eavesdrop with no warrants over the current FISA law possibly be described as a restoration of the Fourth Amendment? That would be like describing a new law banning anti-war speech as a restoration of the First Amendment.
As Jim Dempsey and Marty Lederman both note, not even the nation's most foremost FISA experts really know the full extent to which this bill allows new warrantless spying. Obviously, Jonathan Alter has no idea what he's saying, but nonetheless decrees that this bill -- now that Obama supports it -- restores the Fourth Amendment. Those are the Orwellian lengths to which people like Olbermann and Alter are apparently willing to go in order to offer their blind devotion to Barack Obama.
Moreover, Alter's own explanation is self-contradictory. In the course of praising Obama's FISA stance, he says that a politician looks "weak if you're flip-flopping" and "you look weak if you don't fight back against your political adversaries." But that's exactly what Obama is doing here -- completely reversing himself on telecom amnesty and warrantless eavesdropping, all in order to give the right-wing of the GOP everything it wants on national security issues in order to avoid a fight. By Alter's own reasoning, what Obama's doing is "weak" in the extreme, yet Alter bizarrely praises Obama for showing "strength."
All of the decades-old, conventional Beltway mythologies are trotted out here to praise Obama. Democrats move to the "center" by embracing hard-core right-wing policies. Democrats will look "weak" unless they turn themselves into Republican clones on national security. A President becomes "strong" when he tramples on the Constitution and the rule of law in the name of keeping us safe. Democrats must embrace the Right and repudiate the base of their own party, and they must support Dick Cheney's policies while "standing up to the ACLU."
That's just the garden-variety New Republic Syndrome I wrote about earlier this week. That's the mentality that led large numbers of Democrats to vote for the attack on Iraq, and then ignore and/or enable the whole stable of Bush's lawlessness and other radical policies ("that's how we'll avoid looking weak and liberal"). Those Move-to-the-Center cliches just tumble reflexively out of the mouths of every standard Beltway establishment pundit.
What's much more notable is Olbermann's full-scale reversal on how he talks about these measures now that Obama -- rather than George Bush -- supports them. On an almost nightly basis, Olbermann mocks Congressional Democrats as being weak and complicit for failing to stand up to Bush lawbreaking; now that Obama does it, it's proof that Obama won't "cower." Grave warning on Olbermann's show that telecom amnesty and FISA revisions were hallmarks of Bush Fascism instantaneously transformed into a celebration that Obama, by supporting the same things, was leading a courageous, centrist crusade in defense of our Constitution.
Is that really what anyone wants -- transferring blind devotion from George Bush to Barack Obama? Are we hoping for a Fox News for Obama, that glorifies everything he says and whitewashes everything he does? Compare what Russ Feingold said in an interview yesterday about the Democrats' support for the FISA bill to Olbermann's absurd effort to depict Obama as courageous for supporting it:
It's the latest chapter of running for cover when the Administration tries to intimidate Democrats on national security issues. It's the most embarrassing failure of the Democrats I've seen since 2006, other than the failure to vote to end the Iraq War. . . . It's letting George Bush and Dick Cheney have their way even though they're that unpopular and on their way out. It's really incredible.
It isn't that difficult to keep the following two thoughts in one's head at the same time -- though it seems to be for many people:
(1) What Barack Obama is doing on Issue X is wrong, indefensible and worthy of extreme criticism;
(2) I support Barack Obama for President because he's a better choice than John McCain.
As but one example, John Cole was a vehement supporter of Barack Obama throughout the primary. He viciously criticized Hillary Clinton on a regular basis and raised tens of thousands of dollars for Obama's campaign through his blog. But this week alone, Cole lambasted Obama for what he called Obama's "total collapse and a rapid abandonment of principle" regarding FISA and pronounced as a "pathetic performance" Obama's refusal to be photographed anywhere near Muslims or to meet with Muslim leaders. Despite that, just yesterday, Cole said:
No, I don't have buyers remorse. Yes, he still is better than Hillary or McCain. No, I am not disillusioned (I never thought he was a flaming liberal in the first place). I am, however, disgusted, and I will caution the Obama campaign that "better than McCain" is not much of a rallying cry. We all remember how "anything is better than Bush" turned out in 2004.
That's called being a rational adult who refuses to relinquish one's intellectual honesty, integrity, and political principles in order to march lockstep behind a political leader. Those who think that Barack Obama should not be criticized no matter how wrong he is -- or those who justify anything that he does no matter how craven and unjustifiable, including things that they viciously criticized when done by Dick Cheney or Harry Reid -- are no different, and no better, than those who treated George Bush with similar uncritical reverence in 2003 and 2004.
The real danger is that those who defend Obama the Candidate no matter what he does are likely to defend Obama the President no matter what he does, too. If we learn in 2009 that Obama has invoked his claimed Article II powers to spy on Americans outside of even the new FISA law, are we going to hear from certain factions that he was justified in doing so to protect us; how it's a good, shrewd move to show he's a centrist and keep his approval ratings high so he can do all the Good things he wants to do for us; how it's different when Obama does it because we can trust him? It certainly looks that way. Those who spent the last five years mauling Bush for "shredding the Constitution" and approving of lawbreaking -- only to then praise Obama for supporting a bill that endorses and protects all of that -- are displaying exactly the type of blind reverence that is more dangerous than any one political leader could ever be.
* * * * *
Today's Wall St. Journal has an article on the new Strange Bedfellows coalition and the campaign to punish and remove from office selected members of Congress who support civil-liberties-destroying measures such as the current FISA bill (a campaign I first announced here). The abstract of the WSJ article is here, and the full text can be read by clicking on the link on this page [link fixed]. The details for the "money bomb" the article describes will be disclosed very shortly. Yesterday, Jane Hamsher recorded a Bloggingheads session with former Rep. and current third-party presidential candidate Bob Barr (who Republicans are petrified will destroy McCain's chances) and discussed with him the ideologically diverse efforts to battle against the political establishment's assault on core constitutional liberties. For now, contributions to the campaign -- which now has more than $320,000 -- can be made here.
I'm happy with at least one of my senators today. I emailed both Brown and Voinovich (both Ohio Senators) last night about this and did follow-up calls today.
Brown voted against cloture for the FISA bill today (unfortunately, he was one of only 15), which I'm hoping portends a vote against the FISA bill. I called his office to thank him, called Voinovich's to complain (but expressed a desire that he still votes against the bill when it comes up for a vote). Voinovich used to fashion himself as a "maverick," but he usually votes in lockstep with the Republicans, so I'm not holding out much hope for his vote. However, his staff was very friendly, at least.
Then I called Obama's office to call him out on his newly found belief that this BS law is necessary for national security, but mentioned that I am grateful he is at least against retroactive immunity for the telecoms. I also called Feingold's office to thank him for his leadership on this and other issues.
Oddly enough, Feingold's staff person seemed to have the least patience (though she was still polite) of everyone I called. I'm wondering if that means she's gotten a lot of similar calls today.
What happened to the "change" president?? Is that just rhetoric?
I will never vote for McCain, but Obama may have lost my vote this week. If he stands for "Change" he needs to start acting like it.
I may have to write in a vote, ...sigh
stizz @ 76:
Nader?
How could you?
John McCain will win the White House in November and it will not be the fault of the people. I’m so tired of hearing people say well if you don’t support Obama then McCain is going to win. The Dems stopped supporting the people. So come November blame the cowardly Dems for betraying what the American people have repeatedly said they wanted. We can only take so much before we just say screw it.
If Obama is president and the dems win a huge majority, then there should be no excuses about not standing up. Someone did a good diary on dailyko that the primary season will be in 2010.
He won't be getting any more from me either! Politics is such a cesspool!
Obama's FREE RIDE should be over.
Change my ass.
Nothing succeeds like capitulation!
Voting for Obama is one thing and writing him a check is quite another.
America just got "Pelosied" ...
it's not your grandfather's Constitution....
Why is everyone jumping on Obama's ass? Seems to me there are 80 other clowns out there who did more damage than he did. Stop poking at the one person who fu*ked up and go after the majority who did (the infamous 80). Casey has already heard it from me and I'll continue to bash him for it - while I continue to support Obama for president.
Gad, people - talk about pissing and moaning...
Lets not hide their votes.
Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Barrasso (R-WY), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Nay
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Not Voting
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Cardin (D-MD), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Nay
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Not Voting
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Not Voting
McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Nay
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Not Voting
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Sanders (I-VT), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Tester (D-MT), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Webb (D-VA), Yea
Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
Wicker (R-MS), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay
People, people...let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here...NO politician is perfect, maybe he did for exactly the reasons other have stated before me, like Chris Gamble for instance...his comment makes perfect sense to me...so...while I'm still mildly miffed at Obama for missing the vote...he still has my support, and my vote.
you guys remember how excited we all were in 06 when the dems took the majority?
what a bunch of sheep we are
Chris Gamble,
I was thinking more along the lines of Ron Paul.
When will we ever learn? There is no difference people. The only difference is us against them. Because we voted two corporate people into the white house they have tried to run the government like a corporation and we have had seven years of failure because we have played the part of the loser corporation all the other corporations got rich. Democrat and republican is name only and how they vote depends on which corporation fills their pocket!!!!!!
This whole talk of Obama moving to the centre is bs. Since when is being pro Constitution a leftist ideal instead of an American ideal? So thanks to st. ronnie and his minions we now have a definition of a centrist as follows:
One who wets their beds at the mere mention of an enemy.
One who allows the .gov to spy on us, torture us, incarcerate us without probable cause
One who wants a negative tax rate for the wealthiest 1%
Seriously, is that the definition of centrist/moderate whatever we want? How are any of those positions moderate at all?
liberalDAPofJUSTICEmoderation @ 86:
Babies with bathwater? These are spineless turd prostitutes... flush them.
It's over.
Time to focus on who to kick out of the Democratic Party.
We need to get rid of the repubulicons who have infiltrated our party. To name a few: LIEberman, Feinstein, Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer, etc.
Add to the list all the DLC types, the "Blue Dog" democrats, and all those who have failed to live up to upheld the oath of the US CONSTITUTION.
I had just built up enthusiasm for Obama. Now I know I will NOT give him any of my money. I will support TRUE DEMOCRATS only. My money and volunteering efforts will go to achieve a Democratic majority made up of with TRUE DEMOCRATS.
November 2008 will be a blood bath for the business as usual TRAITORS in the in the Senate and House.
pps @ 3:
In the grand scheme of things... Obama couldn't vote against it. Sure, it would have scored some point points for those that give a damn about the Constitution, but for the rest that seem more concerned with their entertainment news and unscripted dramas they just don't give a damn.
But why couldn't Obama vote against it? First, it would give the Republicans its main talking point for the rest of the general election: Obama doesn't care about keeping this country safe. Great sound bite, eh?
Second, we (as a country) has been operating outside the law for a long while now, since the FISA court was stripped of its duties. This law restores the FISA court.
Does the law have problems? Damn straight. Is it perfect? Hardley. But show me a perfect law in regards to national security in the past 7 years and I'll show you a dog with bad breath.
all hail the hypno toad @ 90:
because the MSN said they are.
All three of the Senators last or still running for President all conveniently "Not Present". Well, ain't that special? Cowards, calculators, all.
Kudos though to the 15 out of 100 who had the balls to stand up.
That's how it all starts. A voter gets ticked at the candidate and decides to make a protest vote in a "safe" state; then that state turns out to be in play and things get too close to call. That's the problem with running as the lesser of two weevils: people start to look for another game. Maybe I'll get a chance to vote for a presidential candidate I truly believe in during my lifetime, but the odds of that seem akin to my lottery tickets paying off.
Uncle Joe Mccarthy @ 87:
The 12 Steps
Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable.
I can't help but think that the Clinton and Obama supporters who feel this issue is of major importance are now rethinking their support.
Humor me for a moment. If Ron Paul had won the Republican nomination, we'd now be talking about the Republican nominee standing up for privacy and civil liberties, and the Democratic candidate(s) capitulation to the administration.
In any case, I think this decision by Obama NOT to step up to the plate is going to leave a 'bitter' taste in the mouths of many.
_
You think?
I may have to write in a vote, …sigh
Nader?
How could you?
Because Ralph Nader isn't a lilly livered "compromiser" like Fancy Nancy & Obummer.
You've all been Lobamotized.
Is it possible to get a refund from Obama? I didn't give my money to him so he can fold like a cheap suit. On the other hand, maybe some people were right - maybe he IS an empty suit.
Barry, NO MORE MONEY FOR YOU!!! My heart is broken.
Uncle Joe Mccarthy @ 87:
That you know that is one thing, that 95% of the population don't and think that they are special and above any responsibility is the real issue.
Scy @ 17:
That is indeed the case.
wheyghey @ 46:
Need some votes for that, not enough suits in the big fat house care as long as they get their military&oil $$ kick back.
Maybe Obama should rethink his rejection of Public Financing as his new attitude (or lack thereof) will make a lot of small contributors (the core of his support) will start to think twice about donating more money to him.
No money if there is no real change.
I can sit and say that I will still vote for him, but I am not sure I will now. This tells me that he will not be any different even if he gets elected. He will for sure capitulate on Iraq, won't reverse NAFTA, and forget universal health care. This is very sad and disappointing.
liberalDAPofJUSTICEmoderation @ 86:
So it's ok when Obama does it but not Clinton? You people make me sick!
The democrats pathetic capitulation to the Bush administration on Fisa has once again demonstrated what I think we all know--Democrats are pussys!
You would think with a decent majority in the house, and a small majority in the Senate, that democrats could manage to thwart the will of the worst and least popular president in our history. However, despite the fact that only 23% of the country approve of this joker he seems to get his way at every single turn. Gets to shred the constitution any time he feels like it, while the impotent democratic leadership does nothing.
Basically I think these people are serial capitulators who really don't care that to truly be un-American is to turn your back on our most treasured American values. But hey, what is that compared to the profits of Verizon?
Smile! Bush Wants To Spy On You From The Sky
A Bush administration program to expand domestic use of Pentagon spy satellites has aroused new concerns in Congress about possible civil-liberties abuses.
How long before they cave on this one?
Jt @ 107:
49 republicans, 49 democrats, 2 independents. Not a small majority.
The 'cons rigged just enough elections in '06 to continue their obstructionism.
What happened to Olbermann on FISA? Was a pod delivered to his house on MondaY?
"Clinton and Obama will claim there was no point since it wasn’t close"
That's the new social definition of leadership. The most liked herd animal that gets pushed to the front of the pack. Nothing about courage, vision, depth, integrity, conscience and foresight.
ETHIOLIB @ 105:
Ah and the truth becomes known ........
PUNK-ASS DUMBOCRATS!!!
They're all sellouts ! If you didn't believe it before, believe it now. Dums and Repugs are nearly all owned by Korporate Amerika. We have officially become a fascist nation. They do right out in the open now and don't even make excuses or apologize for screwing the people they supposedly represent. Obama appears to be the new darling of korporate leadership in this country as he supported the bill for the security of the country..........BS!! more like the security of the Korporations and criminals that run this country for them.
I'm voting independant ..... the two party korporate system doesn't appeal to me!
As the late great George Carlin once said "this country is finished and we've got a ringside seat to watch it go down the toilet"
Well I'm watching and they're flushing
I'll take no voting over voting the other way. Again, this isn't Obama's battle.
Flip-flopping? smoke and mirrors? bait and switch? theater? Kabuki? triangulation?...
How bout just plain old bullshit!........ I'm just about at the point where I'm ready to just say fuck it all and disconnect altogether... I've always voted in these general elections because I've always felt its my civic duty as a citizen of this nation.. But when the political institutions no longer give a shit.. When the leaders in place make statements to the effect that the constitution is just a piece of paper... And then they take actions and initiate policies that prove they believe exactly that...When these people who would claim to represent us as statemen and politicians prove more corrupt and criminal in nature than the most vile criminals we've all read about over the years... When the people running the country piss all over the principles the country was founded on, I begin to wonder just why should I give a damn and try to do the right thing as a citizen in the face of those indivduals who would turn this nation upside down for their own selfish motivations... It's like pissing into the wind, like being on a beach flipping the bird at an oncoming tsunami... A tsunami of corruption... FUCK! Why bother, its just about to the point where I'm ready to buy into the idea that says why vote, why participate at all, it only encourages them..... Now that is a piss-poor attitude. i admit that,and further, its a totally losing proposition to buy into... If I planned to continue to live in this nation at all....... I can't say I'll be posting here much if at all after this coming election.... Regardless of who wins...... Just not any longer sure it matters a whit whether its a dem or a repub sitting in the oval office anymore.... Not sure moaning and bitching on blogs is anything other than a mental bandaid... Maybe something will happen to change my mind.. Ain't counting on it though... I would grieve for my nation but I'm pretty well burnt out on all of it now........JD
Some day I would like to see a Democrat running for president.
The only thing sadder than the Democrats failure on this issue, is the failure of the voters to hold them to account.
I expect the blogs to have (percentage wise) more than an average number of smart voters, clued in, who know their rights and freedoms are under threat.
And yet the amount of Obama apologisers, and wait-and-see'rs is truly depressing.
That is why the Dems have never had a spine. The Democratic voters let them get away with empty promises and rhetoric.
They say a people get the government they deserve. To which I would like to add: they also get the opposition they deserve.
Democrats are traitors. Republicans are mass murdering Christofascist war criminals, but Democrats are as big a traitor against us as their Republinazi colleagues.
It seems Obama is not the perfect candidate everyone was hoping for and goes back on his word like most others. Just look at his major backer though - Claire McCaskill and she also voted yea to end debate.
Question: Just what are you going to expect from Clinton now because if she votes yes along with Obama she will get ravaged for not respecting your 4th amendment rights and if she votes no, then you will ravage her again for not standing up for Obama and voting opposite to him.
So since this has been such an eyeopener as to his changing from being against it to being for it, just like his apparent switch this morning about what he thought of Washington's gun law from last year to this morning, is your anger going to turn on Clinton as well depending on how she votes and will she take the blunt of the disappointment once the vote is over, since many seem so reluctant to give it to Obama where it appears it is due?
(I read he said last year while discussing Chicago politics that the DC gun ban was indeed constitutional and he has come out this morning distancing himself from that belief now)
Bud @ 106:
John: I'm not giving him a free pass. If he doesn't end the war, he's history for me.
Jack Damage @ 115:
Sadly, I'm beginning to feel much the same way. If you're sitting on the barstool next to me, I'll buy you a drink.
It might be time to pawn the statue of liberty, it doesn't really mean anything anymore but maybe you can get something for it. You know the Dow Jones is down 300 points on the afternoon seeing as i see no headlines or article explaining why I can only assume that the fed not lowering interest rates has a thrown a wrench in the free money party on wall street.
I forget my point, oh yeah i thought Obama was a professor of constitutional law, uh where did i read that. It sounded like he was gonna vote for a law that puts the fourth amendment in jeopardy, how the hell could a man with that kind of background consider such a course of action. Him not showing up to vote might even be worse, it suggests a callous calculation on how to get out of responsibility for image sake ...
The Republic Stinks, congress the senate, the executive and yes, the people ... in South Korea they've been rioting over beef imports, In the US you can't have a riot over millions dead, mass poisoning from depleted uranium even your own troops, a whopper lie on WMD's, illegal spying, torture, corruption in every federal post, tho there might be a riot when it comes to filling up the hummer, slight chance heh ...
It's like a slow motion nightmare, I'm scrambling to get my house in order ah ... i anticipate pain and more pain for society's vulnerable ...
I will not vote for Obama.
If he thinks I will be like the Democrats
he knows then he's fooling himself.
I have no problems voting against him.
The Democrats truly did not understand the 2006
election or they think we are like them
and will roll over when getting fucked..
If that's what they think then thay are wrong.
I will not vote for Osama, ooops, Obama.
Obama just lost my vote. So did senator Webb.
The People who voted for cloture just nailed several dozen 20 penny nails into the coffin that carries the remains of the Constitution. America is in a death spiral, and these assholes put it there. If it survives, it's clear that it is going to be in spite of what Congress is doing. We have just about run out of time .
#125 You won't vote for McCain will ya? I'm deeply troubled and wondering what's the alternative to the two nominees?
I love it, after all the bullshit that poeple gave Hillary for the authorization for the war - which was based on a pack of lies - Obama get a free pass on shredding the constitution and not holding this administration accountable in any manner. Could it be that he, himself would like to exercise these new executive powers someday or is it just total lack of spine? Either way this bill is disgusting and I hope the country has enough sense to reject it.
I still have yet to hear how Congress can get away with the whole ex post facto thing with this law. Can someone explain how it doesn't fit that description and how it might hold up under a court challenge? The constitution (like it even matter at all anymore) clearly prohibits this.
Its a shame Obama lacks the courage to reach for the change that he likes to talk about, and instead cowers to the Right. I think this week is going to be quite costly for him, as it should be.
The one funny thing is that people thought these guys would do anything different.
The NAZIs did everything by the letter of the law, which is exactly what is going on in America today. This slide towards totalitarian government in the US and the UK mirrors very much what happenned in Germany in the 1930's.
How many times does Congress have to flip the American public the bird before people will understand that the Congress and Senate are nothing more than entertainment and that government is owned and run by corporate interests in exactly the same way Nazi Germany was? And that those same corporate interests see the public as a headache and an impediment to their plans for complete control? What will it take?
All you Democrat cheerleaders who have said Obama and the Democrats are our salvation need to wake up sooner than later. Time is running out, bigtime. If you need any more proof that the whole presidential election is a fraud with the illusion of choice you are deeply in denial.
Obama says he is against war in Iraq, but war in Afghanistan and Iran would be OK. His spokesman yesterday said he was OK with warrentless wiretapping. Why do you keep believing that he is going to deliver more than more of the same? Have the American people been dumbed down so much that they can't see the evil unfolding all around them?
I used to wonder how the Germans could let things get so far gone, but they didn't have the communication technologies, the multiple sources of information and internet that we have today, not to mention the weapons and tracking systems that governments have available to them. Yet we still walked into this one, and barely broke a sweat.
David @ 128:
Fat, lazy, ignorant Americans can't get up off the couch except to feed their fat faces while watching American Idolatry or to pump out more cloven piglets.
This one crept over America while we lounged on the sofa.
"I love it, after all the bullshit that poeple gave Hillary for the authorization for the war - which was based on a pack of lies - Obama get a free pass on shredding the constitution and not holding this administration accountable in any manner. Could it be that he, himself would like to exercise these new executive powers someday or is it just total lack of spine? Either way this bill is disgusting and I hope the country has enough sense to reject it."
I thought you Hillary fans had finally grown up and moved on to bigger and better things. Oh well, I guee there are still some left. How can you even start to compare the 2 votes?
Not saying Obama gets a pass, but comparing giving direct authirization to have innocent people killed, based on, as you said, a pack of lies, and not voting for a cloture motion are...uuuh well, very different.
Historians of the future, if they exist in a free society, will study this period of history as Americas descent into fascism. And they will wonder how the population didn't see it coming.
The population did see it coming, but they were too chickenshit and self absorbed to do anything about it.
David Said:
"The one funny thing is that people thought these guys would do anything different.
The NAZIs did everything by the letter of the law, which is exactly what is going on in America today. This slide towards totalitarian government in the US and the UK mirrors very much what happenned in Germany in the 1930’s".
Actually David I would dissagree with that statement. This administration openly breaks the law, lies about it and then when finally pinned down retroactivly changes the law to make their behavior legal and protect the criminals that aided and abetted them in their crimes.
If they commited no crimes why did they need immunity?
As Constutional Lawyer Jonathon Turley said "this is a criminals dream come true"
We are witnessing unmasked Korporate Fascism. They are drunk with power now. They own the Executive and judicial branches of Govmt and also have the congress (checks and balances) in their back pocket. Where's the incentive for them to even try to act like they care! They are untouchable!
You know who else used to be untouchable?
The French Royalty. Circa 18th century France.
133 TakeOurCountryBack Says:
David Said:
“The one funny thing is that people thought these guys would do anything different.
The NAZIs did everything by the letter of the law, which is exactly what is going on in America today. This slide towards totalitarian government in the US and the UK mirrors very much what happenned in Germany in the 1930’s”.
Actually David I would dissagree with that statement. This administration openly breaks the law, lies about it and then when finally pinned down retroactivly changes the law to make their behavior legal and protect the criminals that aided and abetted them in their crimes.
If they commited no crimes why did they need immunity?
As Constutional Lawyer Jonathon Turley said “this is a criminals dream come true”
We are witnessing unmasked Korporate Fascism. They are drunk with power now. They own the Executive and judicial branches of Govmt and also have the congress (checks and balances) in their back pocket. Where’s the incentive for them to even try to act like they care! They are untouchable!
The Congress, by not acting against the "administration" are signalling both their complicity and their agreement with the direction things are moving in. Today really is case and point. By enshrining these violations of the law as now the law of the land, in complete violation of the Constitution I might add, Congress is following down the road that Nazi Germany took.
I've always been frustrated by the concept that every four years we are given a "choice" between the less evil of two lessers. If Americans voted for who they actually wanted, instead of treating it like a horse race (you can't not vote for Obama... you'd be giving it to McCain, or vice versa), we'd have more than two parties right now.
I'm not sure what country it is, but I think it's Brazil that is experimenting with something called participatory democracy. Granted, there is something called the tyranny of the mob, but it seems that our votes count very little toward checking and balancing any of the branches of government. (For instance, by taking advantage of the patriotic fervor following 9-11, Congress was able to ram the PATRIOT Act down our throats.)
I'm partially of the mind that we get the government we deserve, but most Americans are too screwed by the system to take its reins. When people are working three jobs just to keep a leaking roof over their heads, they don't necessarily have the time to observe the Machiavellian machinations of their government, especially not if they went to public schools that graduate illiterate students.
We have systemic failures that have contributed to the American people's ignorance, so it is not entirely fair to blame them for being ignorant. Unless and until we can reliably state that our schools are equipping their graduates with the tools they need to be effective citizens, the citizenry at large cannot be exclusively blamed for the government it gets.
Again WOW --- you folk are actually seeing and talking about obama in a true fashion --- great to have a bit of the old CROOKS&LIARS back --- here's hoping it continues..............maybe Axelrod's Wizard of Oz bullshit (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) is fading away --- AT LONG LAST......if we're gonna be stuck with obama, we should have a clue as to what to expect --at least.
I doubt there has ever been a clearer signal to the America people that the Constitution means nothing to these criminals. They all need to go, everyone of them that hides behind some party name or ideaology. Its all bullshit. They are all, first and foremost, sworn to protect the Constitution. They're not supposed to protect their jobs, their corporate masters or their parties ideals.
I'm ashamed. Our leaders have the balls to say they are spreading democracy in the middle east (and the rest of the world) when they've clearly pissed on it in their own land.
pps @ 3:
Dude, there are only 15 democrats in the senate. The rest are the one that Rush sniped at for their ankle grabbing ability. There is no bicamerality, just corpo-reality... Cheese!
Too bad Obama and Hill were too cowardly to vote. Its too bad they turned their backs on you, I knew this would happen too.
This makes me sick.I am ready to quit again,but never against these criminal fascist-types.This is very depressing.
Gee, some people in this country still seem to think they have some kind of unalienable rights or something as if they were citizens of a constitutional republic and the people they send to represent them in Congress should actually defend those rights rather than abrogate them in the War on Bogeymen. How naive.
And what`s up with Harry Reid? What kind of leadership is he providing?
Thom Hartmann on FISA fiasco and MSM near blackout
http://airamerica.com/content/thom-hartmann-fisa-fiasco
You're "disappointed in Clinton", but Obama gets a pass???
Amazing.
I remember way back when looking at the Dem candidates campaign contributions from industry, and noting that Clinton and Obama had their mouths at the teets of the large corporations.
The two are just returning the love to their erstwhile parents.
(sigh)
Well, the Repugs were right about one thing: they have a permanent majority in government. For all practical intents and purposes.
How is it the Coburn of Oklahoma can have more than 100 bills on hold but our stalwart Democrats can't do anything to hold this pile of excrement?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/26/reid-plans-a-coburn-omnibus/
It seems Senator Feingold has placed an objection to the bill and that will delay its passage.
A couple of things seem pretty obvious to me: it makes little difference if we elect Democrats or Republicans. In either case Republicans win. I can get these same results without opening my wallet to support Democrats. The Telecoms can always give more than I can afford to give. A whore is a whore no matter what suite of offices they may happen to sit in.
This makes me angry.
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