We are under attack. Fight back.

Maybe Ashcroft would like to be Waterboarded; just in the interest of having him feel more

confident of what he speaks.

Why does this surprise anyone? The current administration may be looking at war crimes trials, of course they are going to say waterboarding isn't torture. I can only hope Obama doesn't shift his position on this as well.

Another paunchy, pasty face "had better things to do then go to Vietnam" chicken hawk.

I still think these guys should be waterboarded until they admit it's torture.

For bonus points, they should also be waterboarded into admitting they solicit gay sex in bathroom sta -- oh, wait. Never mind.

I'm with enor. Mark Twain once said? wrote? "If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way."

You want to claim that waterboarding doesn't qualify as torture? Given the long historical precedent, the burden of proof is with you. And if you want us to take you seriously, then put yourself on the line: Submit to waterboarding.

ciloisin @ 8:

Like a lot of the Bush Adminsitration Ashcroft is bound for Hell according to his own beliefs and principles.

He's rich and in americon that means innocent, nothing will happen.

disillusioned again @ 5:

Why does this surprise anyone? The current administration may be looking at war crimes trials, of course they are going to say waterboarding isn't torture. I can only hope Obama doesn't shift his position on this as well.

He has already hasn't he ?

Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.

“there is no such thing as torture.”

This will soon be the new GOP talking point.

JayDog @ 14:

And yet they impeached a sitting President for getting an intern-provided hummer.

Priorities.

WTF has happened to this country?!?

Oh yeah... Republicans.

It's not just Republicans...the mainstream media, the lazy, stupid and selfish American consumers, and the military industrial complex, and appeasing Democrat leaders all working together to turn the American Dream into a worldwide nightmare.

General_Rennenkampf @ 15:

Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.

The Nazi's were taking notes from us. Look at our 19th century history...genocide, slavery, annexations, marginalizing women, minorities and children, hyper nationalism...it was the play book for Hitler.

All these guys who've said waterboarding in not that bad, Tucker Carlson, Ashcroft, Billo, et al, should be waterboarded themselves. If you just do Tucker I won't ask for another thing this year, I promise.

Oh, yes, and another thing: the root source of almost all Christians affiliated with the Bush Administration, Medieval Catholicism had not even one theological quibble with torture despite being against gladiator games and having a god that was tortured on the cross. It's curious, as well that Western Christianity should be a bit more subtly attuned to dictatorial mindsets than Eastern Christianity. Perhaps it has to do with the relative isolation of much of Western Europe and the Christian faith's development in that isolation after the Western Empire collapsed in 476 as opposed to the East having Parthia, the Sassanids and Islam to be in contact with.

There is no such thing as torture , it's all in your head.

It's not torture, just a highly agitated state of neural activity in the pain receptors, a mental regression. Stop whining and kick some Haji ass.

24 VietVet8666 Says: Some here see the system as fucked.

Some here see the problem as Repubs.

Some here see the problem as Repubs and Dems.

The problem is all of the above.
==============================

You left out the stupid, gullible, distracted public.

Jerry @ 26:

Leadership @ 21:

General_Rennenkampf @ 15:

Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.

The Nazi's were taking notes from us. Look at our 19th century history...genocide, slavery, annexations, marginalizing women, minorities and children, hyper nationalism...it was the play book for Hitler.

Let alone the support the Nazis had from the US at the beginning while the real allies were fighting, then were a lot of them ended up afterwards etc.

There are no innocents or moral high grounds here, just people who lie to themselves about who they are and their history and those that don't and try to learn from it.

Unfortunately the US is the former and has a lot of growing up to do as a country, nation and people.

Leadership @ 21:

General_Rennenkampf @ 15:

Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.

The Nazi's were taking notes from us. Look at our 19th century history...genocide, slavery, annexations, marginalizing women, minorities and children, hyper nationalism...it was the play book for Hitler.

Jerry @ 18:

General_Rennenkampf @ 15:

Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.

The US has been for years, it just has more toys and PR in the US, the rest of the world isn't blind to it.

@ Jerry, Leadership:

The comparison between the Nazis and the 19th Century US is one I've made myself, Hitler's actions and attitudes towards Russians and other Slavs were exactly the same as US attitudes towards Indians from the days of Jamestown and Plymouth. In condemning the Opening of the West, we forget that the East had already been opened.

The corporations may have supported Hitler, they probably shipped arms to everybody, particularly after Barbarossa, plenty of people wanting arms, after all, but FDR was doing everything he could to draw Hitler into war, only to get whacked by Japan and then Hitler declaring war on our nation despite the terms of his alliance providing a get-out-of-war-free card. There were many Americans who didn't care about Europe, and of the ones who did, a great number did support Hitler, but people forget the Greatest Generation fought a racist SOB with Jim Crow and interning innocent people without any cognitive dissonance. In the era of Jim Crow, Hitler's ideas seemed to have not more than a little resonance with then-current US values.

Who in their right mind would ever believe anything Asscrotch has to say about anything. He is one twisted sister, mister.

These assholes will go to prison for this. I firmly believe this.

“I believe a report of crucifixion would serious, but I do not believe it would define torture,” Pilate said.

He added, “the Imperial Senate has on a consistent basis over the last half-dozen years or so, over and over again in its evaluations, come to the conclusion that under the law in existence during my time as governor of Judea, crucifixion did not constitute torture.”

The only hope you'll ever have of getting an admission out of him would be to strap down his grandchildren and waterboard them in front of this committee, then ask him if it is torture...sadly, you still may not get the truth. Torquemada would be proud.

"Republicans on the panel argued that waterboarding and other harsh tactics yielded information that may have saved lives, and Ashcroft did not disagree." --reported in today's WaPo.

Only problem...there's NO FREAKIN' EVIDENCE that this is true. None. Nothing to base this on at all, and yet the damned media doesn't even mention it.

Oh, but hey, there was a series of light-hearted moments when several representatives mispronounced the names of the people who'd been tortured. Heh, heh. Those public servants. Always livening things up for us proles.

Poopsie@44

I’d like to see a video of Ashcroft and Condi getting it on!

Now that would be torture!

So, I understand that the US has to "come clean" on the rehabilitation of the gestapo, kgb, viet-cong and khmer interrogators who used a technique "that has served a valuable purpose and does not constitute torture" on american prisoners.

Guidelines for North Korean and Iran: with an american prisoner, use the us newly legalized technique or legalize whatever technique you'd like to use. Who cares about International Law anyway ?

So much for "support the troup"...

Chris Jones @42: well said I think the North Koreans and the Iranians will love to quote you when they'll interrogate the US prisoners they have.

Remember: it's not torture if it works, or took place in the past, or if Nancy Pelosi knew about it or if 9/11 upsets you.

That's a simple standard, no?

I wonder, if Ashcroft is so blase about waterboarding and torture, just what was it that Bush proposed at his sickbed that got him so worked up?

Even if it was CYA, it must have been pretty twisted for Ashcroft to refuse to participate.

Andy K Jong Il @ 50:

RobertD@48

First rule of troll extermination- don't feed them. Not one bit.

Forgive my over-exuberance.

I don't necessarily believe, though, that all people who espouse Chris's thoughts are categorically trolls. My grandmother has a lot of the same opinions--she's old, not terribly well informed, and pretty old-school in her "eye-for-an-eye-and-then-some" attitudes toward getting even with people she blames for things she doesn't understand. But like her, people can be educated--and when they see that it's in their own best interest, they can change unenlightened thinking.

But then, she's really old, so that's the excuse I make for her. Others are more determined.

Boo Boo Kitty @ 53:

I wonder, if Ashcroft is so blase about waterboarding and torture, just what was it that Bush proposed at his sickbed that got him so worked up?

Even if it was CYA, it must have been pretty twisted for Ashcroft to refuse to participate.

The next time Ashcroft sang, "Let the Eagle Soar" at an NRA event, Bush wanted to accompany him making farting noises with him armpits.

Chris Jones @ 42:

Waterboarding is not torture. It wasn't then and it isn't now. No matter how many times you rant and rave about waterboarding nothing is going to happen to anyone. These daily hearings are nothing but dog and pony shows for Democrats to take turns grandstanding. The only thing that should matter is getting information out of those who have it. If that means putting underwear on their head, using dogs, waterboarding, or even skinning them alive, it shouldn't really matter. What's the point of worrying about our enemies? Try being concerned about preventing attacks and keeping your fellow countrymen alive.

This would be a somewhat compelling although ethically troubling argument except for the quintessential point that torture does not work. It is totally ineffective for extracting new information; it is only good for getting someone to admit to something you think you know already. In fact, I would venture that if I were being tortured I would be encouraged to resist if I saw that my tormentors needed something. But I guess that, Chris, you might have a hard time putting yourself in a suspected Al Qaeda member's shoes.

And I would argue exactly the opposite: torture has nothing to do with our enemies; it is only about ourselves.

"The object of torture is torture." Orwell

RobertD@55

My grandmother is 95 years old, a Roosevelt Democrat who remained that way until Reagan. Now she has BillO books-on-tape on her shelf. I still love her. And when she spouts that right-wing crap as fact to me- in person- I just turn her Quebecoise on her and say, "Ce c'est craque, Mimere!" (sorry if I got that wrong, Francophones)

But if she got on-line and spouted the same thing, I'd just ignore it. There's no winning 'em over. They know they're right- that's why they post the way they do.

Andy K Jong Il @ 61:

RobertD@55

My grandmother is 95 years old, a Roosevelt Democrat who remained that way until Reagan. Now she has BillO books-on-tape on her shelf. I still love her. And when she spouts that right-wing crap as fact to me- in person- I just turn her Quebecoise on her and say, "Ce c'est craque, Mimere!" (sorry if I got that wrong, Francophones)

But if she got on-line and spouted the same thing, I'd just ignore it. There's no winning 'em over. They know they're right- that's why they post the way they do.

Maybe so. But crap is crap. One way to deal with it is ignore it, and there are times for that. Another is to refute it. It doesn't always work, but that doesn't mean you have to leave it lying on the lawn.

RobertD @ 48:

Chris Jones @ 42:

[Deleted. Abusive. Site Monitor]

Second, it is torture, as defined by the Geneva Conventions. You know, the series of codes by which bodies at conflict treat each other's captured with human dignity? Regardless of whether or not you think it's justified, it's torture.

Third, your point that nothing is going to happen as a result of these hearings--that they're all dog-and-pony show, is correct. Nancy Pelosi has already said as much.

Next, all manner of studies have shown--repeatedly--that torture does NOT produce reliable intelligence. People will say their grandmothers shot McKinley in order to have the pain stop. Therefore, it's not only illegal and inhumane, it's ineffective.

Finally, there are a lot of good reasons to worry about our "enemies." If not simply for moral reasons, then for practical ones. The ways in which we treat those we've captured are how our own soldiers--our brothers, sisters, parents, friends, children--will be treated if they have the misfortune to be captured themselves. It's enlightened self-interest. For this reason, torture does nothing to "keep your fellow countrymen alive." In fact, it may very well do the opposite.

Finally, there has never been any evidence that waterboarding--or any other harsh interrogation technique, including any other form of torture--has prevented an attack. None. There is NO DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE. As such, your argument is flawed.

Have a nice day. Don't ever get tortured.

You're wrong about that. No matter how we treat people that we capture, our people are get their heads chopped off if they're are captured. If we started moving detainees from Gitmo in to the Four Seasons tomorrow, our soldiers would still be dead men if they were to be captured.

As for the argument about torture not working, that's also nonsense. For every person you bring me that says it doesn't work I can bring you two that says it does. There are hundreds of books written by special forces guys that served in Vietnam and they say torture works nearly every time. They tortured VC all the time in Vietnam to get information and it was a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

And finally, waterboarding was only done to 3 people! Why have hundreds of hours of hearings over 3 instances of waterboarding? The whole thing is so ridiculous and misguided it almost defies belief.

Our own government has a history of machine gunning it's own citizens who struck against coal mines and sweat shops in the late 1800's, of burned their homes to the ground (some with them still inside) for striking against the corporate elite. Why should we expect them to have any reservations about torturing foreign nationals?

The netroots have effectively brought hundreds of thousands if not millions of citizens into a common forum with which to voice their disgust and outrage with our government's illegal activities. We need to move to the next level of activism, which IMO is mass civil disobedience and demonstrations against the perpetrators of these illegal and violent activities. This includes the corporate headquarters, the government facilities, and even the private residences of the leaders of these organizations. We have exhausted the written forms of protest. It's time for us to use our keyboards for the purpose of organizing ACTIONS against the corporatocracy and their representatives in the government.

JMHO

Chris Jones,

To condone torture is wholly unamerican, based upon our Bill of Rights, and our signing of the Geneva Conventions. You can write all you want about whether it is justified, or whether it works. You may want to review this criteria set by the DSM IV diagnostic manual:

"Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a mental disorder defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: "The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood due to the lack of love and care for the child."

Maybe he should volunteer to be waterboarded with Crisco!

What a DICKHEAD!

I will continue to be pissed off every time I see a Dem, or Repub, on a Congressional committee ask someone from the Bush administration what the law is! When, if ever is Congress going to wake up and realize that THEY write the laws and therefor should know what's legal. They don't need to ask Asscroft if waterboarding is legal. After all these years of debate (there shouldn't have even been a debate, it's as straight forward as it can be) every member of Congress should know that YES, IT IS TORTURE!!! When Asscroft and anyone else says there not sure, or they didn't see it that way, or they were only doing what they were told, the Democrat's in Congress should say 'well regardless of your confusion or misunderstanding, or out right law breaking WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE, AND THEREFOR AGAINST NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL LAW!!! We are now going to bring charges against you and everyone else that was involved in it. Of course that would require a Congress with a spine.

Waterboarding is torture. The dirty little secret is that the vast overwhelming majority of Americans support the waterboarding of suspected Islamic terrorists. The Jack Bauer nightmare scenario of a hidden nuclear weapon has left an indelible imprint on the American psyche.

Chris Jones @ 65:

RobertD @ 48:

Chris Jones @ 42:

You're wrong about that. No matter how we treat people that we capture, our people are get their heads chopped off if they're are captured. If we started moving detainees from Gitmo in to the Four Seasons tomorrow, our soldiers would still be dead men if they were to be captured.

As for the argument about torture not working, that's also nonsense. For every person you bring me that says it doesn't work I can bring you two that says it does. There are hundreds of books written by special forces guys that served in Vietnam and they say torture works nearly every time. They tortured VC all the time in Vietnam to get information and it was a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

And finally, waterboarding was only done to 3 people! Why have hundreds of hours of hearings over 3 instances of waterboarding? The whole thing is so ridiculous and misguided it almost defies belief.

Aw, one of the the misguided makes an appearance

As to your first point

No matter how we treat people that we capture, our people are get their heads chopped off if they're are captured.

I think you rebut yourself quite well here

... waterboarding was only done to 3 people! Why have hundreds of hours of hearings over 3 instances of waterboarding? The whole thing is so ridiculous and misguided it almost defies belief.

I assume you're referring to Daniel Pearle? If you are, that's one instance. Are there more?

Your other point

As for the argument about torture not working, that's also nonsense. For every person you bring me that says it doesn't work I can bring you two that says it does

Ok, Malcolm Nance

Waterboarding is Torture… Period

There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture.

And Gens. Krulak and Hoar

These assertions that "torture works" may reassure a fearful public, but it is a false security.

Colonel Stuart Herrington

Two problems with torture:
It's wrong and it doesn't work, according to interrogation expert

Senator John McCain

“They should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.”

OK I gave you five, that means you owe me ten who say torture is worthwhile ... and no that doesn't mean Jack Bauer

As to your last assertion that waterboarding was only used on three people, I know this is like trying to prove a negative but where is it said that it was only three people?

Booo this foul man!