Jon Stewart did a good job with this last night too.

FINALLY!! I wish more MSM's would speak up like this. Oh, frist!

ooops. not frist.

Look, you guys have to try to understand camoaign strategy. McCain needs a war in order to win.

The Iran war is taking entirely too long to get going, an there's a sad likelihood that it won't erupt till after the election. So when this backup war became a possibility, what with McCain's close relationship with Shaakashvili through his advisors, the neo-cons grabbed it.

When Russia put missiles into Cuba America was ready to go to war in the Cuban Missile crisis, now we do the same to Russia and expect them not to respond??? WTF!

Russia Lashes Out on Missile Deal

WASHINGTON — The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia’s military operation in Georgia.

Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to host the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/16poland.html?hp

Georgia attacked S. Ossetia first and the Russian's are claiming that Cheney is behind this in an attempt to bolster McCain's sagging campaign:

Kremlin dusts off Cold War lexicon to make US villain in Georgia

Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barack Obama being elected president of the United States.

The line came on the main news of Vesti FM, a state radio station that — like the Government and much of Russia's media — has reverted to the old habits of Soviet years, in which a sinister American hand was held to lie behind every conflict, especially those embarrassing to Moscow. Modern Russia may be plugged into the internet and the global marketplace but in the battle for world opinion the Kremlin is replaying the old black-and-white movie.

The Obama angle is getting wide play. It was aired on Wednesday by Sergei Markov, a senior political scientist who is close to Vladimir Putin, the Prime Minister and power behind President Medvedev.

“George Bush's Administration is promoting interests of candidate John McCain,” said Dr Markov. “Defeated by Barak Obama on all fronts, McCain has one last card to play yet - the creation of a virtual Cold War with Russia . . . Bush himself did not want a war in South Ossetia but his Republican Party did not leave him any choice.” The Americans were now engineering an armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Dr Markov added.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4535173.ece

The key for hawks appears to be to use the words "neighboring" or "in Europe." It's wrong to invade a sovereign country *in Europe.* It's wrong to invade a *neighboring* sovereign country (as if the country being far away makes a difference).
BTW, whether a country's government "deserves" to be overthrown is all but irrelevant, or should be. Otherwise, *who* gets to decide what government deserves to be overthrown? That sort of argument invites chaos.

John McCain is not only being hypocritical, he's taking intellectually dishonest compartmentalized thinking into never before imagined or explored realms of insanity. The man should be institutionalized for his own protection.

John Amato,

Thanks for going to the trouble of posting Windows Media and Quicktime in addition to what I assume was the main YouTube clip. Our corporate system administrations dept. has decided that any and all things Youtube are subversive. Wherever a YouTube clip is posted on any web page, all we see is a blank spot. It gives me a chance to see what I would otherwise have missed. I don't own a TV and don't watch it, so you have provided me a means to stay better informed. Thanks.

HaHAhAHAHAHA! I loved the "Does the pope... Does a bear..." comment.

Russia actually has a stronger case. Georgia moved into South Ossetia before Russia responded to the situation on its border - unlike, for example, the pre-emptive retaliation of the US against a sometimes looming, but not imminent, "threat" 10,000 miles away.

And one CNN goofball stated it was differant because Saddam was a dictator and Suckassvillian was elected. Notice the media is saying that McCain and Obama are neck to neck in the race. Just grooming the public to accept the Diabold scam 51% againist 49% for Democrats. It's been sooooo! close how could anyone complain

[Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barack Obama being elected president of the United States.]

And Mcshame is sending Lieberman & Graham to Georgia. Mcshame says "we are all Georgians."

Who in hell is in charge here? I thought Bush was still POTUS but here is Cheney trying to start another war and mcshame taking over by sending envoys and making announcements on behalf of the U.S. But then we knew Bush was NEVER in charge.

Well, I'm sure that McCain supporters will point to the fact that their candidate remembered what century we're in.

What a leader!

Paul @ 14:

John McCain is not only being hypocritical, he's taking intellectually dishonest compartmentalized thinking into never before imagined or explored realms of insanity. The man should be institutionalized for his own protection.

That is unfortunately the necessary mindset of his base. Intellectually dishonest compartmentalization + authoritative imprinting = Republican. Throw in a few right-wing hate rants, a gun, and some rapture-loving and you've got a really pleasant mix.

Rasputin @ 10:

When Russia put missiles into Cuba America was ready to go to war in the Cuban Missile crisis, now we do the same to Russia and expect them not to respond??? WTF!

Russia Lashes Out on Missile Deal

WASHINGTON — The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia’s military operation in Georgia.

Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to host the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/16poland.html?hp

Good thing those dirty hippies didn't dismantle our nuclear arsenal - there's still time for MAD!!!

constituent @ 20:

Bill in Chicago @ 9:

McCain just called this Georgia fiasco, "the first probably serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War."

How is that not an outright slap in the face of everyone who lost a loved one in 9/11?

And Cafferty is absolutely right about Iraq. Simply put, we invaded the wrong stinkin' country:

http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com

Not that McSenile will ever figure that out.

here we go with the fear propaganda....black said an event like this could help j.mccain....the u.s. came back with an agreement with poland.....remember mccain knows how to win wars, hopefully he doesn't know how to win presidential election(s)

The Neocons are desperate and fear is their stock in trade for manipulating the American public!

They couldn't sell "Al Qaeda will run Iraq"

They Couldn't sell "a phony "Gulf of Tonkin incident" to justify a war with Iran"

So now they are trying to revive the "cold war" and fear of Russia.

☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 24:

Jack Cafferty, KO and Rachael Maddow are probably the Only truthful people in the news business.

I was just reading THIS for Iraqi's inside Iraq about the US spreading so-called Democracy.

Let us try to describe the kind of ‘democracy’ the U.S. has implanted in Iraq.

Using its deadly and fearful military machine, the U.S. has exported the democracy of dark and rotten vestibules to Iraq whose smell now stings the eyes and nostrils of anyone with common sense.

It is the democracy of bombardment, shelling, indiscriminate killing, massive prisoner abuses, turning millions of people into refugees, attacking with warplanes and heavy armor major cities, towns and villages and dividing a unified nation along ethnic and sectarian lines.

For these polices which the U.S. initiated and Iraqi politicians have been copying we have lost so much innocent blood.

Iraq’s share of democracy is death, division, homelessness, lack of basic and rudimentary amenities and escape into nowhere.

Is there an alternative to the fake democracy the U.S. has been selling to Iraq?

There will be no way out for Iraq as long as U.S. and Iraqi politicians laugh at each other.

There will be one crisis after another. Some of the problems will exacerbate and there will be no force on earth to contain them.

The greatest tragedy is that those in charge of the country – U.S. invaders and Iraqi politicians – are the creators of almost all the problems Iraqis suffer from. And they are doing nothing to have them solved.

In the words of Col. Kilgore, "Someday... this war's gonna end."

Old Billy Hussein @ 28:

☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 24:

Jack Cafferty, KO and Rachael Maddow are probably the Only truthful people in the news business.

I was just reading THIS for Iraqi's inside Iraq about the US spreading so-called Democracy.

Let us try to describe the kind of ‘democracy’ the U.S. has implanted in Iraq.

Using its deadly and fearful military machine, the U.S. has exported the democracy of dark and rotten vestibules to Iraq whose smell now stings the eyes and nostrils of anyone with common sense.

It is the democracy of bombardment, shelling, indiscriminate killing, massive prisoner abuses, turning millions of people into refugees, attacking with warplanes and heavy armor major cities, towns and villages and dividing a unified nation along ethnic and sectarian lines.

For these polices which the U.S. initiated and Iraqi politicians have been copying we have lost so much innocent blood.

Iraq’s share of democracy is death, division, homelessness, lack of basic and rudimentary amenities and escape into nowhere.

Is there an alternative to the fake democracy the U.S. has been selling to Iraq?

There will be no way out for Iraq as long as U.S. and Iraqi politicians laugh at each other.

There will be one crisis after another. Some of the problems will exacerbate and there will be no force on earth to contain them.

The greatest tragedy is that those in charge of the country – U.S. invaders and Iraqi politicians – are the creators of almost all the problems Iraqis suffer from. And they are doing nothing to have them solved.

In the words of Col. Kilgore, "Someday... this war's gonna end."

Not if Cheney can help it!

Do not poke the Bear.

Do as I say, not as I do. How quaintly republican.

http://poac.wordpress.com/2006/12/19/a-brief-history-of-the-pnac-a-refre...

And Scarlet P
Love your work!

ed managed to put a unique and positive spin on the “bush says no bullying” thing (paraphrasing):

“he’s learned his lesson! we don’t have to worry about bullying from this regime anymore!”

ha! good one!
.

also has a theory that the russians are causing a diversion, taking the heat off IRAN, they don't want US to bomb iran...

makes sense when HE says it...

russia seizes u.s. weapons....georgia's arsenal

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080815%5cACQDJO...

"They don’t bother trying to look at the facts or determine how this situation actually began. It’s easy. Russia is bad, Mkay? Has the press adequately reported the chain of events that resulted in Russian tanks busing around Georgia? There are dips of information coming in."

Spot. On.

Amato: This whole Georgia/Russia situation seemed to be finely manipulated for McCain’s benefit.

Robert Scheer: Georgia War a Neocon Election Ploy?a>

Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election?

Before you dismiss that possibility, consider the role of one Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain’s senior foreign policy adviser.

Previously, Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

There are telltale signs that he played a similar role in the recent Georgia flare-up. How else to explain the folly of his close friend and former employer, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, in ordering an invasion of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, an invasion that clearly was expected to produce a Russian counterreaction?..

Reuters: Bank analyst forecast Georgian crisis 2 days early

MOSCOW, Aug 14 (Reuters) - The outbreak of war between Georgia and Russia shocked most of the world last week, but an investment bank analyst predicted it two days in advance.

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili sent troops into the breakaway, pro-Russian region of South Ossetia on Aug. 7, on the eve of the Beijing Olympic Games, and Russia responded with overwhelming military force.

Geoff Smith, a Kiev-based analyst for Renaissance Capital investment bank, had anticipated the Georgian move with uncanny prescience in an e-mail two days earlier to a fellow strategist.

"So whaddaya think? I say Saakashvili is going to 'restore the territorial integrity of Georgia' five minutes before the opening ceremony starts in Beijing and dare the Russians to invade while the games are on?" the note said.

Reuters has seen a copy of the e-mail and confirmed its validity with both the sender and recipient of the message...

"It was just intuition," Smith said by telephone. "I said nothing about the possible Russian response, but if you had asked me I would say that Moscow could not have taken it lying down," Smith said.

Explaining his reasoning, the former journalist said the upcoming presidential election in the United States could have played a role in Saakashvili's decision to send troops into South Ossetia.

"Certainly the next White House will not be as supportive of Saakashvili as this one and so if Saakashvili wanted to reunite Georgia he really had to do it this year and he was probably hoping the Olympic Games gave him the right cover," he said.

So:

(1) McCain's Campaign needed the "bump" - and notice how well prepared they were, with his (*cough* *cough*) stirring "We Are All Georgians Now" speech AND OpEd in the Washington Post.

(2) Saakashvili needed to consolidate his popularity at home by rousing the nationalist spirit.

It was (at least) a two-fer for the THUGS.

I repeat my previous statement...

IF McCain gets elected, Its not because people voted for him but to vote against Obama. It’s because the MSM and it’s blatant lack of integrity.

Dennis Kucinich or Some other Dem with some balls should come up with a legislation against MSM - I dont just mean the Fairness Doctrine debate (equal amounts of conservative and liberal political commentary)

but a legislation to a least fact check, use reasearch and knowing what’s actually news not a puff piece.

Oh .. and remember the ReTHUGlicans' manipulation of the Iranian hostage crisis to ensure Reagan's defeat of Carter in 1980.

The entire Bush Administration is built on the premise of 'the good guys must do bad things on occasion.' That's the whole of their rationale - we NEED to fight the terrorists over there, we NEED to listen to their phone calls, and so on.

It's hypocritical, but its roots are in delusional thinking, i.e. 'if there's a war, I can be a hero!' instead of 'I can be a hero if I prevent a war.' They rule out the latter by telling themselves it's Neville Chamberlain appeasement to do anything but fight.

RE: #47

Indeed, a hostage crisis that was a direct result of the coup I mentioned.

Great,

Now the NeoCon fascists are manufacturing another war.

Just what we need.

Imagine how much money they could steal when we're talking about equipment like Nuclear Missiles, Launch Platforms, ICBMs, and satellites.

All the greedy NeoCon politicians must be getting erect, just thinking about it.

Before anyone says otherwise, if they were willing to 'ignore' dangers to the World Trade Center, with terrorists that fly planes into buildings.... imagine what they would do with a nuclear threat?

We can't the republican's get their way. This is a horrible scenario. A lot of lives are at stake.

In a street fight matchup: Cafferty, Olbermann & Ed Schultz -vs- Limbaugh, Beck and Savage. No contest. (Hell, even Rachel Maddow could kick their asses)

Numinous @ 53:

Great,

Now the NeoCon fascists are manufacturing another war.

Just what we need.

Imagine how much money they could steal when we're talking about equipment like Nuclear Missiles, Launch Platforms, ICBMs, and satellites.

All the greedy NeoCon politicians must be getting erect, just thinking about it.

Before anyone says otherwise, if they were willing to 'ignore' dangers to the World Trade Center, with terrorists that fly planes into buildings.... imagine what they would do with a nuclear threat?

We can't the republican's get their way. This is a horrible scenario. A lot of lives are at stake.

You ain't fuckin kiddin!
It's showtime folks!

Are we sure that the respondents weren't all part of the military. 6 thought McCain was wrong and 1 thought it was ok to invade Iraq. The same ratio was noted for the military contributing to Obama over McCain, 6 to 1.

interesting opinion regarding georgia/russia and how u.s.,u.k. and israel play into this a couple maps showing
pipeline(s)

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/08/13/the_b...

MM & 50,

You are correct. The Russians are just trying to bring freedom to Georgia. Once the people see how great it is, it will spread across the globe.

As long as they institute the no bid crony contract legislation that leads to stability, it should cost nothing, and become a veritable utopia.

Jack Cafferty has always had balls -- and a clue. He reminds me of the old-time newspaper and TV assignment editors who looked at ALL elected officials and those seeking office with a suspicious eye. Trouble is, far, far too few of them are left in the national media. What in the world happened to them? Did all the eavesdropping and wiretapping the feds have done make them susceptible to blackmail? If so, they need to get out of the news business and get paid directly by the candidates instead of putting forth this illusion of neutrality. Thank God for Jack Cafferty.

Barrett D @ 52:

in the 21st century you don't invade [i]democratic[/i] nations.

thats what jon stewart tried pointing out to paint condi rice as hypocritical. except that Iraq was not a democratic nation. Afghanistan was not a democratic nation.

its what mccain meant too. he gaffed (again).

I point this out so we don't get caught up in a meaningless debate that will be lost. There are many good reasons to be against the war in iraq. But because Bush, McCain, Obama (et al of americans) are against Russia invading Georgia, is not one of those reasons. Russia vs Georgia is indeed very much different than USA vs Afghanistan/Iraq.

Despite USA's past wrongdoings, Bush et al ARE doing the right thing by backing Georgia. I think we should all be supporting Georgia in this. Not that Georgia is completely innocent or something, but Russia is clearly going far beyond its authority here. The USA went against international law once. Two wrongs does not make a right though, its important we support international law and peace, even if Bush doesn't.

Balls. Support Georgia? WTF?

We are, have been and may always be in the hands of madmen.

Vote Obama.

constituent @ 20:

Bill in Chicago @ 9:

McCain just called this Georgia fiasco, "the first probably serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War."

How is that not an outright slap in the face of everyone who lost a loved one in 9/11?

And Cafferty is absolutely right about Iraq. Simply put, we invaded the wrong stinkin' country:

http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com

Not that McSenile will ever figure that out.

here we go with the fear propaganda....black said an event like this could help j.mccain....the u.s. came back with an agreement with poland.....remember mccain knows how to win wars, hopefully he doesn't know how to win presidential election(s)

Maybe someone already answered this and I missed it but how does one know how to win a war parked in a POW camp? How many wars HAVE McCain won?

mackiddo5 @ 71:

constituent @ 20:

Bill in Chicago @ 9:

McCain just called this Georgia fiasco, "the first probably serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War."

How is that not an outright slap in the face of everyone who lost a loved one in 9/11?

And Cafferty is absolutely right about Iraq. Simply put, we invaded the wrong stinkin' country:

http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com

Not that McSenile will ever figure that out.

here we go with the fear propaganda....black said an event like this could help j.mccain....the u.s. came back with an agreement with poland.....remember mccain knows how to win wars, hopefully he doesn't know how to win presidential election(s)

Maybe someone already answered this and I missed it but how does one know how to win a war parked in a POW camp? How many wars HAVE McCain won?

Well definitely have better chances of winning a war, by NOT getting captured, after you crash your 5th plane.

Unless this community here is FOR overthrowing democratic governments?

Obama will take a hardline against Russia too, and support Georgia. Its a good thing too. He knows it would be his defeat if he didn't. Independents are looking for leadership qualities, they already know he's not a neocon, hes not for pre-emptive strikes, war is a LAST resort, thats a great thing. But americans still want a tough and strong and principled international presence.

McCain would only be a hypocrite if he truly believed in the sovereignty of other nations and that other nations should act in accordance with our actions and a common international law - in his neocon, wingnut, exceptionalist world our nation is the only nation with a viable claim to sovereignty due to our self-proclaimed superior moral imperative (providence dictates we rule the world according to God's law). See also, do as we say not as we do rule. Clearly other nations should play by our/McCain's/Bush's rules and the sooner they know this the better.

McCain's foreign policy is that America has a god-given right to preemptively wage military action against other nations/peoples at out pleasure but that no other nations are allowed to act in any interests other than our's/McCain's/Bush's; whatever they may be at the moment.

bobbie @ 25:

I think we'll have to settle for a Cold War. We don't have enough of a military left to have an actual Hot war anymore.

a couple of other countries do ...

"USA still behaved better than USSR in the 20th century.
Lately though the USA hasn’t overthrown a democratically elected government."
Barrett_D@72

you write this as if you think the US supports/supported democracies worldwide.

millions of people would beg to differ

earl @ 79:

bobbie @ 25:

I think we'll have to settle for a Cold War. We don't have enough of a military left to have an actual Hot war anymore.

a couple of other countries do ...

a war with russia would probably be over very quickly lol, with millions dead in just a few bombs. then china wins.

Ken @ 42:

this is the 2nd time this site has mentioned reasons for russia's presence in georgia may have begun in some other way that has been reported

give some follow up please, no links?

Try here. Also go here at Monday, Aug 11, 2008 17:33 EDT for the original post and interview.

McCain's statements, logically, are very seriously illogical.

He is not the richest man in the world, nor the most powerfull in the world. He's just an old man who has a title, a good amount of money, a very rich trophy wife, a temper, and a very feeble memory of what is reality that must constantly be corrected by someone at arms length away, whispering into his ear.

Who is giving the words, comming out of his mouth the weight, that it does not in any logical sense, deserve?

Who is behind the puppeteers curtain, pulling the strings and moving his lips, spewing more lies just like the ones we have been putting up with for the last eight years?

He is mearly another GWB clone whose strings are very well hidden, and untouchable.

The truth is only found and discussed on comedy channels?

Samson- @ 81:

"USA still behaved better than USSR in the 20th century.
Lately though the USA hasn’t overthrown a democratically elected government."
Barrett_D@72

you write this as if you think the US supports/supported democracies worldwide.

millions of people would beg to differ

The USA does, in principle. I`m not saying we should turn a blind eye to when the USA falters. But it doesnt make sense to turn a blind eye to russia, just because the USA sucks too.

the USA doesnt overthrow its neighboring south american governments anymore. that was a cold war thing. if we turn a blind eye to russia forcefully controlling its neighbors, then maybe the USA will go back to that too. thats not good.

im canadian btw. im not a blind patriot, i am aware of americas past crimes. however, american principles are very sound, despite the occasions when america does not adhere to them.

Obama 08

Hm...

so Iraq and Afghanistan are not nations, then?

Please tell me he didn't really say that...

my faith in mankind was starting to grow again...

Has the previous poster noticed the US's role in the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Haiti or the attempted one in Venezuela?

91 General_Rennenkampf Says:

my faith in mankind was starting to grow again…

That's my effect from womenkind.

I'll need more evidence before I start believing that this situation was primarily instigated for election reasons, rather than the boneheaded foreign policy of Gov. bush. Georgia was foolish to initiate their attack, and Russians are most definitely taking advantage of the US over-extended positions in Afghanistan and Iraq, and Chimpy's hypocritical position. Have to also agree that it is just as wrong for the Russians to be imperialist as it is for the US if you are going to be consistant with your principles.

I surprised that no one remembers when Karl Rove left the country to avoid testifing before Congress in July. He went to "vacation" on the Black Sea and guess who was one of the people the president's ex-political advisor had meetings with? That's right, the current president of the Republic of Georgia.

Barrett_D@89

in principle the american PEOPLE do. in practice the US govt/corp does not.

and it is folly to think we don't have our thumb on the scales in south america still.

McCain = Goldwater for the 21st Century ("The Century of American Hegemony" in the Book of Neo-con)

McCain= Comedian of the month

“In the 21st century, nations don’t invade other nations.”

And Nixon wasn't a crook.

General_Rennenkampf @ 100:

Barrett D @ 72:

USA still behaved better than USSR in the 20th century.

Lately though the USA hasn't overthrown a democratically elected government.

We need to watch Russia carefully, to ensure that they don't.

Looking at how we turned everything south of the Rio Grande into our own personal empire, turned Japan into an empire of rubble, interfered more than a few times in democratic elections, had Jim Crow until the late 60s, forcibly colonized the Philippines, had a near-war with our southern neighbor at a very bad time for one, and proved quite willing to support some of the nastiest bastards to keep the big bad Russians out...

the difference between the Cold War superpowers was degree, not kind.

And I'm saying we don't want to return to that cold war America. The modern America is actually much better, despite its recent stupidities. The iraq war is often stated as americas biggest foreign policy blunder. Maybe in the last 20 years it is. But iraq is not as bad as all the crap america did during the cold war. At the very very least a brutal dictator was taken out and a people given a taste of democracy. But of course, the ends do not justify the means.

Not defending bush's lies. Just comparing how the post cold war blunders are better than the cold war ones. the fact that iraq is called a blunder and is so unpopular and under alot of scrutiny is a good sign. Far more american soldiers died in korea fighting a proxy war, but that was supported. Yes, indeed its imperative we don't have another cold war. Its imperative we ensure Russia does not start running an empire again.

Just the latest of many indefensible gaffes by McGramps. He's just a senile old fool, just like Bush Sr. and Reagan right before his death.

He needs to retire to..."The Villages, Florida's friendliest home town." Although the retired New York Jews would probably kick him out. Hahahahaha!

Charles @ 113:

Just the latest of many indefensible gaffes by McGramps. He's just a senile old fool, just like Bush Sr. and Reagan right before his death.

He needs to retire to..."The Villages, Florida's friendliest home town." Although the retired New York Jews would probably kick him out. Hahahahaha!

Hey don't send his ass here! Florida already has enough assholes thank you very much.

isolationism!??! that is just reactionary...

america can be prosperous. clinton days were OK, eh? I don't think the people of america will forget the retardedness of the bush administration. maybe neoconservatism is dead? will it take evangelicalism with is?

Obama will be president and I bet we'll see a better pax americana.

Barrett D @ 118:

isolationism!??! that is just reactionary...

america can be prosperous. clinton days were OK, eh? I don't think the people of america will forget the retardedness of the bush administration. maybe neoconservatism is dead? will it take evangelicalism with is?

Obama will be president and I bet we'll see a better pax americana.

I said it was an ideal...

not that my ideals have even a prayer of really happening.

The Clinton Administration was the high tide of the US. We can't unbreak what Bush's gang of bastards broke. And as for evangelicalism dying...

You do know Evangelicalism's existed since the 1800s, don't you? If it could survive the chaos of the 20th Century, this one doesn't seem to offer much on the scale of the last one (thank God, BTW, cuz mankind won't survive something as ass-crazy as the 20th Century, Mk. 2) to upset the future of Evangelicalism as much as the 1900s did.

Will they ask McCain if he has Georgia wrong?

Rice, Rove met with Mikheil Saakashvili while McCain had a conference call.

Rice visited personally on July 9-10,

Rove met with him later at the Yalta conference July 10 to July 12
*(July 10 was the congressional committee meeting that he was supposed to attend.)

McCain had a conference call with him in April (during which his foreign policy advisor's lobbying firm signed a new contract for consulting with Georgia).

Hmmmm. All these meetings and no one said, um, dude, messing with Russia would be a real bad move?

Georgia was increasingly convinced that it's a real partner of the United States, that the US would defend Georgia - practically regardless of what Georgia did.

new info:

*Ossetia is a ninety percent Russian
*Georgia invaded Ossetia trying to take control of the region and ethnically cleanse the Russian population.
*The Georgian Army, commanded by their Minister of Defense (who is also an Israeli citizen), launched a surprise invasion and attack that caused the deaths of at least a thousand people in its first 24 hours.
*This attack was committed while the attention of the world was on the Olympics.
*Thousands of Ossetian civilians became refugees from the Georgian assault.
*Instead of condemning Georgia from the outset for the invasion and massacre, Neocon controlled politicians such as George Bush are condemning Russia and attempting to move America and Europe toward a conflict with Russia.

EPeoples.
I'm not knocking your point, but those comments describe any of the Stans or other former Soviet Republics. Ever been to any of those places? Life means nothing. The weak don't survive. Plus, Russia is even worse. Who do you think the Georgians learned it from?

I am no UN lover, but these are places they should have been streaming into after the wall fell. These societies have never known the peace and order Europeans and Americans take for granted. Life gets very messy outside the comfy confines of Western Civilization...

I'm in shock because for once Pat Buchanan actually makes sense!

Blowback from Bear Baiting
By Patrick Buchanan

Excerpt:

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/blowback_from_bear_bai...

This is as hypocritical and funny as Dumbya saying bullying and intimidation are not ways for a nation to conduct itself in the 21st century. I guess he forgot his "you're either with us or against us" speech in 2001.

[Deleted. Sneering condescension-Sitemonitor]

Sounds like you know more about it than I do, General. I've never been there and I don't lament the fact.

Anais @ 68:

Jack Cafferty has always had balls -- and a clue. He reminds me of the old-time newspaper and TV assignment editors who looked at ALL elected officials and those seeking office with a suspicious eye...

Jack Cafferty would fit nice as WH communications head in Obama admin...it would be funny, smart and would treat stupid news media as stupid people.

EPeoples @ 133:

foutsc @ 129:

General_Rennenkampf @ 125:

foutsc @ 124:

The peace and order we take for granted is largely because the US was willing to provide it for Europe. At one time, we were basically going to commit genocide with Germany (the Morgenthau Plan, which as I recall was a milder plan for the West than what the hardline members of FDR's group wanted) only to find that for some reason, the starvation it caused made big bad Stalin seem more attractive.

And if you think that what goes on in the former USSR and Warsaw Pact is bad...

just try imagining Africa or certain corners of Latin America where poverty is much worse even than the old Soviet Empire.

Been there, done that. I would say the Stans are worse just because there is more violence than in LA.

All of this is beside the point. The poster earlier said there is no comparison between the sovereignty of Georgia and sovereignty of Iraq because Georgia and its president supposedly represent this flower of democracy sprouting gloriously in the mud of eastern Europe whereas Saddam, well, he was just a thug and torturer. So, now that I've pointed out that Georgian president is a thug and a torturer too, no less so than his predecessors at least, you can't gloss over that with the hard-knock history of former Soviet Republics. I hear tell that Iraq had a pretty rough history too before Saddam took over.

If historical abuses mitigate judgment against torturous regimes this standard should be applied evenly. If we are unwilling to acquit Saddam with the same "life is rough over there" stroke we shouldn't be willing to acquit this guy in Georgia with it either.

We can argue about degrees of oppression, degrees of torture and what-not, and I suppose a case can be made that Saakashvili isn't as bad as Saddam was. But if that's our standard it doesn't speak well for the loftiness of our goals. As long as you're not quite as bad as Saddam, have at it? That's a bit uninspiring.

Shhh....don't use logic and reason on a blog. It breaks all the rules.

"In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations. Unless, that is...our national security (I mean THEIR national security) is involved. But still it's wrong, because freedom depends on being sovereign...of course, if the other country is run by a bad guy, then it really isn't sovereign, you see, and that all depends on how bad the bad guy is. And America gets to make that judgment, because everybody knows we're the only country with the moral authority to decide who's evil and who isn't, and you can't be sovereign if we say you're evil, no matter what anyone else might think. Do I make myself clear?"

According to the non-mainstream news I've seen, it was Georgian troops that attacked South Ossentia first, see the links below. A few things to point out:
-US military and CIA have been training Georgian troops since 9/11
-There are pipeline implications in that region that Western countries want control over the Russians

Fox News censors 12 year-old American survivor of Georgia-Russia conflict

youtube link

And please go read the following: globalresearch.ca link

Could either candidate have said nothing. Imagine the outrage. Imagine the vitriol. Imagine the slanderour remarks. Either candidate could have said, “As a candidate for the presidency I will withold my remarks and let the current CIC who has up to date intelligence make the call on the current situation in Georgia.”

One cannot be complacent with the status quo. There is always going to be something. It would be interesting to see our foreign policy “experts” predict possible outcomes with greater frequency and in a more timely manner without the political bullshit influencing interpretation of facts.

We are not supposed to know in advance when the next tipping point might occur. It is not our job. It is the reason we contract with experts. If the experts cannot predict anything and are wrong when they do why do we continue to use them? It is like keeping a CEO who has lost the company money five quarters in a row, or the hapless professional football team with a 1 and 15 season will raise the quarter-back’s salary anyway. It’s nuts. Hell, if their guess is as good as mine how do they explain the feelings of superiority they feel? Insiders who make few if any accurate predictions remain insiders. Is this anyway to run a business?

Is humiliating and embarrassing to be an American these days .

For purpleOnion: Here's what a candidate who is unafraid of telling the truth might have said about Russia's invasion of Georgia:

"This was wrong. In the 21st century, nations may not invade other nations. We did the same in 2003, and we were equally wrong. There are no ends that justify brutal means, including unilateral invasions of sovereign countries."

Of course, any such candidate would be excoriated as unpatriotic and a "wimp." So don't expect the truth from McCain or Obama, because honesty and a conscience are no longer requirements for high office in the United States.

NATO
has a dysfunctional child living in it's basement it has been running all over town acting tough and then running and
hiding behind NATO for protection, But what will happen to this dysfunctional child when NATO tells him he has to move
out sooner or later everyone has to stand on there own two feet spread there wings and face the world head on.

But this child will never leave nor will it be asked to leave the protection of NATO unless someday it brings such
hardship down on NATO that like all parents getting on in years it has no choice but to kick him out to save itself.

Or we could also see the divorce of NATO but who gets custody of the petulant little child if nobody wants him
Sorry kid your on your own Ta Ta.

Of course this is just a dream but every time I have it a warm glow just flows all over me.

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

- Hermann Goerring

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

- Julius Caesar