OH voting machines contain critical vote-dropping glitch
How are these things still legal?
WaPo: (h/t miss kitty)
A voting system used in 34 states contains a critical programming error that can cause votes to be dropped while being electronically transferred from memory cards to a central tallying point, the manufacturer acknowledges.
The problem was identified after complaints from Ohio elections officials following the March primary there, but the logic error that is the root of the problem has been part of the software for 10 years, said Chris Riggall, a spokesman for Premier Election Solutions, formerly known as Diebold.
The flawed software is on both touch screen and optical scan voting machines made by Premier [formerly known as Diebold] and the problem with vote counts is most likely to affect larger jurisdictions that feed many memory cards to a central counting database rapidly.
It never ceases to amaze me that eight years after the whole Florida debacle, and four years since the shady Ohio vote count, that virtually nothing has been done to fix all these voting "irregularities." It's really inexcusable.
For an idea of how easily these electronic machines are hacked, see HBO's Hacking Democracy.
so they admit to rigging elections for at least ten years
It's not a problem it is a feature!!! "thats the way the customer ordered it"
Hmmmmmmmmm?
No fooling.
hmmmmmmmm?
Or just make a click over to the Brad Blog from the roll on the left. Brad has been one of the best sources for following this issue for years.
Hand counted paper ballots, settle for nothing less.
It takes hours to stuff a ballot box with thousands of votes to effect change. To switch that many votes electronically takes a few key strokes.
Support BlackBoxVoting.org!
Support BlackBoxVoting.org!
I agree with munz, it's "not a bug, it's a feature," as the industry joke goes.
As a 10-year software development professional, I have to say that this is mind-boggling. Totally inept, inexcusable. Transactioned, foolproof data transfer is a very common problem with very well-understood solutions. That a major software company could roll out this important a product with an error like this is just unbelievable.
At the very least the testing and quality assurance should have been contracted to multiple different companies. But I think the software for these machines should be public. They're off the network, so hacking from outside is not an issue or a danger. The security issues are internal, and the programming community would have caught this long ago if the source was public.
Nice of the WaPo to get into the story now that it's to late to do anything. It's not like any of this has been a secret or anything. This stuff has been out there for almost eight years.
Why do you refer to them as 'irregularities'?
Working as intended.
There is no way some of the problems with electronic voting machines are accidental. These glitches and back doors were designed in on purpose. There is no other reason for being able to put hidden code on a memory card that will flip votes. These same companies make ATM machines and software that must be secure and verifiable. Why our voting equipment is held to the same standard as our banking equipment is beyond me.
Oh, and here's how you stop fraud: give the paper trail to the citizens. Everyone gets a receipt with their choices and a made-up unique identifier encrypted on it. No personal information, and no way to get the vote data off the receipt without the key.
But any citizen can walk down to city hall after the vote and say, "I think the election was stolen, please check to make sure that my vote is correct in the database." Just one incorrect or missing vote proves fraud and triggers a new election.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is against paper receipts of any form or type for electronic voting machines, is transparently advocating the stealing of elections. There's every reason to do it, and no reason not to. Except that it would help prevent fraud.
You'd think that interfering with a citizens voting rights would be illegal. Will the party in charge pleases stand up, please stand up?
And yes, we have the right to vote, it's in our Constitution more than once. (-For Boortz types)
Thanks for not making this a priority Miss. Pelosi. I dont think that they even investigated this once.
Oh well it has only been a problem for Ten Years.
Alright, so will the FEC now mandate that these machines are NOT be used in the upcoming election? If they don't there is more serious s*it going on than what we have been led to "believe."
Also, why did it take so long for these "glitches" to become known?
tjb @ 5:
not really. it's already built into the program that counts the votes. no 'touching' required.
Helen Rainier @ 14:
states don't need the FEC. they can do it for themselves. look to california as an example.
Helen Rainier @ 14:
these 'glitches' have been known for ten years and people have been screaming about it since at least 2000. where have your eyes and ears been?
Funny this should come up this morning. I live in DuPage County in Illinois. I live practically across the street from Cook County. My morning paper had an article about the touch machines in Dupage County as having the same problems this article is talking about. When we voted in the primary in the spring, our voting place had 10 voting booths and only one machine. The whole time I was there nobody used the machine. The town I live in has only 8,000 people and it seems everybody knew about the problem with the machines from the 2004 election. This problem should be splashed across every newspaper and tv station until every machine is either kept out of the voting places or we get a receipt that shows how we voted.
Diebold? No wonder.
10 years they have known about this problem and not one thing done to correct it. It just goes to show that these idiot republicans don't care about America only what they can steal from her!
Kinda funny that the spokesman's name is "Rigall", huh?
The only real reason for voting machines is the MEDIA. People think they want the results before the election is even over. The news reporters and stations want to increase their "market share". LET "EM WAIT!
Since whoever wins doesnt take office for weeks, there's PLENTY of time to count votes. On Paper Ballots. One type of ballot, standardized throughout the country. Simple.
Dump the machines!
Bev Harris was right all along. The elections are rigged, and even though that has become obvious to anyone with a three digit IQ, nothing will be done about it until the operation of national elections is nationalized.
When an irregularity is identified in software, the results are usually random.
Please explain how these "bugs" only seem to drop votes for the Democratic candidates, especially in light of the Diebold executive's promise to give the election to Bush/Cheney in 2004.
I'll take off my tinfoil hat now, as I don't want to have a bad hair day.
OBAMA/BIDEN 08
PEACE
I have been saying for months that November's election is already over. The voting machines have already been configured in Ohio and Florida. Surprise! WE LOSE! Democracy at it's finest........
Where electronic machines are used, the voter needs two (2) receipts. One to fold and drop in a box before exiting the polling place, and one to take home.
After the machines are closed, the paper receipts need to be counted and verified against the machine count. If the total number of votes match, but the individual candidate counts don't, the election is invalid.
If they do balance, the results from each polling place should be sent to at least three (3) outside agencies to tally. If their vote counts don't balance, the election is invalid.
Keep auditing every step of the way, and there is no way that the results can be tampered with.
But that's just me...
PEACE
Ho hum...so what else is new. Once again the republicans are poised to steal another election. The Democrats will probably be ready to send a "strongly worded letter" to the FEC after McCain is in the White House. Every American should be outraged by the criminality of Diebold (a major republican contributor) and be prepared to challenge the election results!
Well, since registered Democrats have substantial majorities in both Ohio and Florida, I'd suggest that they ALL get out, vote, and not make excuses...only a close vote tally can be rigged, no matter what.
The 18-25 yr old demographic did not vote in 2004, so it's hard to believe Kerry would not have carried the State if they put down the bong, got off their asses and voted. In Fla, the over 55 vote needs to be mobilized...then they simply can't steal it...
Even if the voting machines were software perfect, with no "features",
anyone with access could still get into the county or state election servers and vote the registered non-voters for whomever they wanted...Who is checking that I wonder?
If no precinct goes back the next day and double checks their count against the County/State count, Who's to know?
There was a couple of instances in Georgia where people went to vote and were told they had already voted on election day.
Oh by healdless corpse of John the Baptist!
What the fuck? What's it gonna take to get some goddamn fair elections in this country?
American Democracy at work.
You just know if the Repugnikans had come to conclusion they had lost to Kerry in 2004 because of this state of affairs at the voting booth in Ameerica they would have been out in the streets and in the courts screaming for recounts in the courts across the land with legal challenges and demands for total recounts.
That Bush/Cheney got back into the WH because of how the 2004 vote was set up and pushed through surely not passing any smell test. These war criminals very likely having been returned to the WH based on some very questionable vote tallies.
American democracy. The best government money can buy or voting computers can be left fault ridden to rig the outcome on.
Where was the Republican outrage over 2004 voting process problems? They got what they wanted so were content and happy.
If this November 2008 election should put Obama/Biden over the top and there are any close or questionable vote tallies one just knows the Repugs will raise lots of hell and be screaming "not fair--not valid" on TV,radio and anywhere else they can grab a soapbox and stand and shout from. And they will try to discredit and cast as not being legitimate a Obama/Biden WH.
Count on it.
This entire state of affairs with these crappy voting machines,flawed software and dubious outcomes should have been taken apart bit by bit by the Justice Dept. anytime from early 2005 onwards to get this 2008 election right. Oh wait--a Bush Justice Dept. led by Bush crony Gonzales or his replacement the plainly corrupt Mukasey doing any such thing?
A Bush/Cheney WH led Justice Dept.?
Competence? Integrity? Honesty? What are you? Some kind of freak or radical leftie? Don't you love America?
America. Home of the free. Land of the brave. Where Diebold and enough corruption and money make Americans right to vote a fraud and mockery.
liberalNmoderation @ 29:
A Rebellion, probably...
Nagahapun...
At least at the level od national electoral politics, your vote hasn't mattered since Raygun...
"It never ceases to amaze me that eight years after the whole Florida debacle, and four years since the shady Ohio vote count, that virtually nothing has been done to fix all these voting “irregularities.” It’s really inexcusable."
It never ceases to amaze me that eight years after the whole Florida debacle, and four years since the shady Ohio vote count, that anyone could possibly believe that the people in power have any intention of ever fixing something they do not perceive as a problem, but rather a solution.
xoites defends Constitution @ 32:
Yup...In the immortal words of Iosef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili (allegedly): It doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes...
woody, tokin librul @ 31:
Well....shit.
Does anybody believe they aren't in the business of stealing elections?
I've said for the longest time there is a HUGE conflict of interest in a company that manufactures voting machines being a huge contributor to the republican party.
Diebold (Premier) should get a class action for the cost of the war and damage to the economy.
Remember, it isn't just Diebold/Premier either. It seems every one of these voting machine companies seems to be the same way.
It speaks volumes when a company has such a bad reputation that they have to change their name to try and fool everyone.
Hi to Vickif from a fellow C&Ler in DuPage.
Don’t tell me that Premiere has to change their name already. Name changes solve all problems.
My guess is that the cons will use the voting machines another way. If they can't steal enough votes for romney/mccain and obama wins, they will surely contest the election, citing faulty voting machines. I'll bet karl has a scenario set up right now whereby the cons will prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the dems hacked the votes.
Do your part for democracy: A ball-peen hammer and cooperation with the authorities when they show up should do it.
Oh, and I hope you have some time off saved up from work.
we can piss and moan all we want about this but it's up to the citizens of Ohio to change this......hello, Ohio? anybody home?
lakelady @ 39:
No, nobody is home in Ohio, Maryland, Florida or any other state. The citizens are unable to change much of anything. Tell me exactly what form of positive change has occurred in the last 20 years, if you will.
I can only imagine what the framers of the Constitution would say if they were told that the fate of our Democracy was being left up to machines made by corrupt corporations designed with enough negligence as to hide and obfuscate the will of the people.
It's about damn time that ALL states switch to Oregon's vote by mail system. It has been shown again and again to not only maximize voter participation, but at the same time create an individual paper trail for every single vote cast. If nothing else comes from an Obama/Biden victory in the fall, it should be complete and total reform of our electoral process in this country.
Shameful...
jgr4 @ 7:
As a fellow 10+ year software developer I have to agree that it's mind-boggling, but not the fact that the product could have such errors -- just simply that Americans accept it.
Software has holes, and there's absolutely no way around that. The best solution is stunningly obvious:
tjb @ 5:
Yep.
BigTallMatt @ 41:
I think they would be pleased if it was presented to them in a different way. If they were told that the vote was being protected from the MOB that they feared so much that they created the Electoral College i bet they would feel just fine.
Most of the Media will tell you that Exit Polls are not accurate because they are in conflict
with the Final Tally from Voting Machines. Well it looks like we know which side there on.
I will trust the Exit polls over the Voting machines any day of the week.
As for the Media,all you have to do to Figure them out is watch who there sponsors are
the Drug Industry,and Big Oil.
I read somewhere after the 2004 election (paraphrasing):
The US has two months between election day and inauguration, yet is too impatient to wait two seconds for a final vote tally. Why the impatience and use of "voting machines" when democracy is tenuous enough as it is? Would it kill the US to take two, four or six days to count and recount the votes by hand especially when the people being elected will serve terms of two, four or six years?
You can count the votes fast or you can count them right. You can't have both.
Why just be told how easy these machines are to hack? Learn to do it yourself:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevotedemo.htm
Basically, they are just Windows machines with Access databases. The typical "talented-guy-in-your-office-who-knows-a-lot-about-desktops" could learn to do it.
That is hardly the biggest flaw with these machines. The biggest flaw is the CEO has sworn to deliver the votes to the Republican candidate. No matter if they fix this one, don't be surprised when the machines still switch votes from Democrat to Republican, but not only that, from anyone else to Republican.
I like jgr4's take on it. I to am an IT pro and here's what really gets my goat:
1. The actual task of a voting machine is the least complex of all math functions. Adding a 1 to a number and getting an accurate result is not rocket science and hasn't been for centuries (millennium?) So why do these vendors proclaim the process of adding one number to another as proprietary? Have they added a "secret sauce" to the underlying principles of math? Voting software should be open sourced and publicly available for comment and code improvement - similar to some European models. The hackers viewed in these videos easily fixing faux election results could probably be a major part of the solution. If nothing else, we geeks are competitive about coding, the cream of the global crop would be working on the software to close security loopholes.
2. While watching one of the hack-the-vote videos, where the lady downloaded source code and data from the Diebold ftp server, the data she was accessing had a familiar icon and file extension attached to it - .MDB.
Anyone who works in a computerized office knows what an .MDB file is and that file designation is not proprietary to Diebold but Microsoft.
Diebold probably used the MET (Microsoft Election Theft) Wizard to create their "proprietary" software. You know, the little animated smiley guy that pops up and looks like Karl Rove with a balloon that says, "which election would you like to steal?" You select "National" from the menu and click "Next."
3. A paper receipt is also not rocket science. Every convenience store cash register in the U.S. can pull it off but not a voting machine?
4. I'm sure that the crack team of programmers working for the machine vendors are pulling overtime on their next product line which will replace machines all together. The voters will just stay home and make a wish for their candidate which will be tabulated by the new counter.
Let freedom ring (someone else's phone I guess)
-Greg
I have one question. Why can't we kill these traitorous dogs?
I keep writing the Obama campaign and the DNC asking what they intend to do about this. After 8 years we haven't learned anything. So the GOP will steal another election. Man are we stupid.
When a state's Secretary of State signed onto a closed, secret, proprietary system in which no one is allowed to see the computer code or independently verify accuracy, then how does anyone expect the vote to NOT be rigged?
I say that these people KNOW full well that they are allowing the vote to be rigged for the GOP.
So on the one hand the GOP starts all these Photo ID laws to prevent 'voter fraud' which is proven to not even exist, and on the other GOP-owned voting machine companies are selling intentionally pre-rigged computers to hand elections to their chosen candidates.
The only way Republicans can possibly win elections is by blatantly lying and cheating the voters.
How can you still be amazed? It is rigged. And the only response is for the MSM, etc. to dance around and point yelling "silly conspiracy theorists". Elections in Amerika are RIGGED. Either take to the streets or get used to it.
If anyone cared about doing the right thing, Ohio would be barred from the Presidential election unless they fix their serious problems with electronic voting.
the answer is paper ballots, but it needs to go further. what we in Oregon have now done successfully for quite some time - mail only ballots. sure, the cost in postage and trees is high, but to save democracy it is worth it.
stumped in stumptown @ 54:
Eliminates the all-important secret ballot. No dice.
No electronics. No mail-in BS. Just a box with paper in it, that's never, ever allowed to leave the public eye from the time the polls close to the time the final vote is tallied.
spencers mom @ 23:
There won't be any Obama/Biden in '09 if these 'irregularities' aren't fixed before the election. Oh, I forgot. It's too late to change now. Guess we'll have to scream some more come November, only to be met with indifference from both Republicans and Democrats- again.
Turns out those tinfoil hats are pretty good bullshit detectors. Keep wearing yours.
Jeon Ji-Yung @ 55:
In Washington we have mail-in ballots too, complete with UPC barcode to track our vote. Not a fan.
LOOKS LIKE THE OBAMA CAMP NEEDS TO TAKE TO THE AIRWAVES IN A BIG BIG BIG BIG WAY
TO RECALL THOSE MACHINES IN 34 STATES AND GO TO PAPER BALLOT NOW.
Without that McCain is going to win because ROVE, who is running his campaign is going to steal another election.
Americans are famous for sueing the sh!t out of each other for the most trivial things. Why hasn't this route been used to ram those machines up their @sses????
Hacking Democracy is an excellent documentary. There's no need to buy the video, you can watch it on google video. Here's the link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4463776866669054201
The best part of the Wapo article was that even though they know the machines are malfunctioning, they still plan to use them. Why not? It's not like they are being used for something important, like picking our next president. It's amazing that we put up with inaccurate voting machines. Would a bank put up with a computer that couldn't add right? That constantly deposited money into an account, when someone made a withdrawal. We can make computers accurate count money, but not votes. Give me a break.
Diebold=Corruption. Voting is one thing that should be untouched by technological advances. We need to get back to punch cards. By the way, screw Florida.
Fascist States of America @ 37:
Hi back, I'm in Itasca, where are you?
What do you expect when the voting machines are owned and run by crooked Reslugs.
Munz is spot on. In the software biz, woefuly error-prone, this is called an "undocumented feature."
Voting machines should be open-sourced so we can all scrutinize the code. why should company be able own/control our voting machines. the contracting of such a key component of the democratic system has an obvious potential flaw. (well actually the contracting of any government component is potentially flawed. if i could be contracted out perhaps that component shouldn't be part of government in the first place.) Our government was founded on the ideas of checks and balances. where are they here?
I'm still waiting for a Diebold ATM to spit out some extra $20's, but it never does. Funny how they've always had that perfected, but not voting for president, isn't it?
Congress has stood idly by while states have done the hard work of trying to make electronic voting more reliable. Now the Senate is taking up a dangerous bill introduced by Senators Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, and Robert Bennett, Republican of Utah, that would make things worse in the name of reform. If Congress will not pass a strong bill, it should apply the medical maxim: first, do no harm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/opinion/03sun2.html?partner=rssnyt&emc...
Scy @ 54:
I wonder what would happen if these machines were broken so they couldn't be used come election time and everyone had to vote on a paper ballot?
Oh how fucking convenient. The assholes will still use them all over the country. Another sham election coming up???
ardyjay @ 61:
way to bite the conservative/chamber of commerce/insurance industry bait hook line and sinker - WAY TO GO!!!!
/sarcasm
no, we americans don't sue the shit out of each other for trivial things, at least not enough that it is really a problem
The last name of the spokesman is just about perfect - Riggall
As I recall even after two stolen elections Pelosi and friends decided it was "too late" to do anything about the machines. That was January of this year.
Caaallliiiifoooorrrnnniaaaa....what is wrong with you guys gearing up to give this bushlovin' skank another run?
I do NOT understand.
No Correction: it was not January of this year, it was at least a year ago.
For those that are serious about making a change for fair elections, head on over the www.bradblog.com
Electronic voting is his #1 issue. Remember...politics really are local so you must attack the federal elections by appealing to your secretary of states as they are the ones really in control of how elections are handled in your state.
I never thought I would have something nice to say about Oklahoma being a Texas-Ex, but every state should follow Oklahoma's lead on taking control of their elections. See video
http://www.votersunite.org/info/VendorUnderminingVideo.asp
There is also a report in .pdf format on this page where you can read up on more case studies. On page 50 their are actions you can encourage your election officials to take.
the munz @ 2:
Exactly.
This is the only memory-based technology I've ever heard of that drops anything. Such cards are DESIGNED to transfer memory in tact - otherwise why would anyone bother to buy them?.
This batch has to be made to order.
okcomputre @ 67:
OPen Source? Checks and balances?
Wrong. Not since double-entry book keeping was highjacked by using two sets of books has there been a bullet proof way of, electronically, keeping any accounting game honest.
Open source will make no difference. What can be done in a picosecond and unseen will happen if there is the criminal will to do it.
Face a very simple fact: Electronic voting is the single most IDEAL way of rigging an election.
Like the folks who say the best way to win a nuclear war is not to start one - the best way to ensure electronic voting doesn't result in rigged elections is to ban electronic voting. Period.
Why is that my assessment? Forty years of systems work is a good place to start.
Greg Forest, Cowtown, Texas @ 50:
It figures. Another IT pro looks at the 'tabulation problem' and says - What problem?
There is no problem. It is near-impossible for tested and idiot-proofed software to fail to increment a counter properly by 1 vote.
You have to work very hard to make a simple arithmetic function selectively fail to do that. The process this article describes, in its entirety, stinks.
Well, a Republican whistleblower has come out concerning election fraud. There is a Rico suit being brought in Ohio against the WHite House, the RNC, etc., etc.
All the info can be found @
Peace
Sorry, screwed that up. Here 'tis:
www.velvetrevolution.us/prosecute%5Frove/
What can we do to get these things removed?
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