Greenspan Gloomy On Economy, Hates McCain Tax-Cut Plan
By Steve Hynd Sunday Sep 14, 2008 8:45am
Former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan was on Sunday's "This Week" and told George Stephanopoulos that the current financial crisis is a "once in a century" eventwhich he wouldn't bet on leading anywhere except to recession. Gloomily, Greenspan explained how US house prices, now in freefall, underlie the US government paper that permeates the world economy - and that consequently the rest of the world is suffering even more than America is from a home-grown US financial collapse.
And, on Saturday the Associated Press reported remarks by Greenspan that clearly indicate he doesn't think John McCain is the one to steer America and the world through that collapse.
"Unless we cut spending, no," the former Federal Reserve chairman said Friday when asked about McCain's proposed tax cuts, pegged in some estimates at $3.3 trillion.
"I'm not in favor of financing tax cuts with borrowed money," Greenspan said during an interview with Bloomberg Television. "I always have tied tax cuts to spending."
That McCain's "Bush-Plus" budget planning, which would make Bush's tax cuts permanent while introducing extra cuts benefiting mostly the very rich and corporations and would aim to offset those cuts by cutting earmark spending, comes up woefully short was pointed out by Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.):
McCaskill said eliminating congressional earmark spending — estimated at $17 billion annually — cannot offset McCain's proposed tax cuts.
"That's a huge amount of money, but it's not even a drop in the bucket to pay for $3.5 trillion in tax cuts," she said. "So, every time he throws up earmarks and he's asked how he's going to pay for it, he knows he's being disingenuous, he knows he's not being forthcoming."
It'sa position that McCain's own chief economic advisor also holds - as divulged in a forthcoming book. Douglas Holtz-Eakin believes that "you’re going to have to raise taxes whether you’re a Republican, a Democrat or a Martian" but the McCain campaign campaign isn't taking his advice and he isn't speaking out in public about that because "“It’s the brand and you don’t dilute the brand.”
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Sarah Palin Explains Why She’s Qualified to Handle the Nation’s Financial Crisis
http://satiricalpolitical.com/?p=3174
Aw....
damn.
Just keeps getting better and better. Next thing you know there'll be political decisions decided by private armies.
McCain obviously never had to balance a household budget. You can't keep spending while cutting your income. Sen. McCain, this does not work! No smoke and mirrors or branding will make it so! Paul O'Neill had the sense to get out of Bush's cabinet because he could not pretend this cut tax-and-spend idea of Bush's would work. The US in dire straits financially and we need someone with the courage of Obama to right this listing ship of state!
Republican Brand
Rich before poor.
Power before democracy.
Fascism before freedom
brand before nation.
What did Bush senior call it? Oh right, VOODOO ECONOMICS.
We're STILL paying for that.
Never mind.
Three minutes until the opening bell. My hunch is it will be a slaughterhouse.
McCain's top economic adviser "Quit Doling Out That Bad-Economy Line."
Oops. Bad timing for one of McCain's top economic advisers to be penning an op-ed in the Washington Post lecturing Americans to suck it up and stop exaggerating (rhymes with whining) about how bad the economy is. This guy looks like an idiot. And he makes McCain look like an idiot.
Actually, I'd like to hear the screams of bloody murder, murder most foul, from the GOPer electorate as a McCain President presided over the largest tax increases in the history of the nation, rasing taxes because doing so could no longer be avoided. I delicious irony.
Who cares what this nitwit thinks. Didn't he have a hand in setting the policy that led to this crisis?
“So, every time he throws up earmarks and he’s asked how he’s going to pay for it, he knows he’s being disingenuous, he knows he’s not being forthcoming.”
so, what is ir with journalists and pundits in this country?
why the extreme reticence with calling an out and out lie a lie or a liar the same?
they do it in the uk. why not here?
9 times palin announces in front of sheep-like reporters about how she "refused the bridge to nowhere" and not one called her a lying sack o' manure.
Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? Greenspan and his buddies reapped gazillions from Bush's policies. Now Greenspan grows a conscience? Give me a break!
Does this explain why McSame is never seen without Cindy? Is he keeping her close to be near "his" money?
McCain a Crook and a Liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK3Y1KPzW9k
“It’s the brand and you don’t dilute the brand.”
Yet another example of how Republicans put their 'brand' before the interests of their country.
LOLOL...Greenspan...LOLOL...no...no...make him stop....hates....LOLOLOL..oooh...my sides hurt....hates the tax cut plan..NO NO....LOLOLOL...ROFLMFAO....oooh gawwd...ohhh LOLOLOL!
Here is an interesting Survey that my Wife and I conducted via E-mail over the last few weeks. We surveyed our friends and family (back in the USA).
96% of the respondents who said they were Republicans also believed in:
Astrology, Colon Cleansing, Aroma Therapy, Craniosacral Therapy, Psychic Practices (Astrology, Tarot, Palm Reading, Tarot, etc.) and were devout xtians.
Step back from the fan !
Anais @ 3:
Exactly! I seriously doubt that McCain has ever balanced a checkbook or even if he would know how. You have to live in the real world ot understand keeping a budget. Most households know that you have to live within your means. I have a feeling the Obama family is very familiar with what a budget means to the average household. Until his books began selling, they were working with debt and household expenses.
Alan Greenspan has supported the GOP mantra of cutting taxes, cutting taxes and expecting revenues to increase for over 20 years.
He signed off that these misguided policies for 2 decades and aided and abetted it by keeping interest rates artificially low and increasing the money supply at such an extreme rate that the Fed was forced to stop issuing statistics on M3.
He's a fraud and a liar.
If the republicans hadn't destroyed the educational system, people would be able to figure this stuff out for themselves!
Take any government spending amount, divide by 200 million, and that's your share. Multiply by the number in your family, and that's your family's share.
3.3 Trillion in tax cuts is $16,500 each. Somehow that just doesn't compute!
The 400 Billion federal deficit is $2000 per person. Certainly more than this family of 5 could ever pay in taxes!
Don't even think about the trade deficit - it's just too mind boggling!
pissed off patricia @ 17:
He has "peeps" who do that for him. He is close friends with bush senior, who never knew about scanners in supermarkets and also had no clue about the economy, remember ... "it's the Economy Stupid"?
Forgive me if I don't bother listening to what's-her-name's husband.
YourMom @ 19:
This will ruin the United States, mark my words. The only question is what will replace the United States, whether it is milder or darker.
pissed@17, Cindy and John have no clue what they are doing. Cindy's response after the 'The Veiw' was in essence "They were picking our bones clean." Please! The women on 'The View' were only having a debate, and MSM never called Mccain to the carpet about his lies. MSM has sheltered McCain so long, he seems suprised he actually has to answer to his smears. Now McCain alienated CNN. It is only a matter of time before all of MSM will bite back.
♠♠...Bangkok Bob...♠♠ @ 20:
I doubt if McCain knows what his peeps do or if they do it correctly. He lives in a financial bubble thanks to Cindy and her bubble maker. What are the odds he has ever used an ATM?
Like McCain said: He doesn't really know anything about economics and what do economist's know anyway?
#24 wrote: "What are the odds he has ever used an ATM?"
Given his skills with computers, he'd likely transfer all of his money to a Nigerian 'businessman' if he tried.
Pissed@24, A ATM? Remember Bush senoir's infamous moment when he didn't even know what a supermarket scanner was? Or Guiliani couldn't tell you the price of what a gallon of milk was? These Repuge are so cluelss. It would be funny if it wasn't so important.
P.D. @ 23:
I think Sarah began a pissing match with the media when she made this comment in her speech:
“And I’ve learned quickly these past few days that if you’re not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone. But here’s a little news flash for those reporters and commentators. I’m not going to Washington to seek their good opinion. I’m going to Washington to serve the people of this great country.”
With those words, she basically told the MSM to kiss her ass. Not probably the smartest move on her part.
The best thing about all of this is that it presents a new challenge to the spin-meisters in both the Administration and the McCain camp and the results ought to be hysterical. I am certain that it will be mostly Clinton's fault, that the economy is "fundamentally sound" (if you already have $100,000,000.00 in off-shore accounts), and that people shouldn't whine about losing their houses, pensions, and future.
Oh, and McCain-Palin with their herd of lobbyist friends should be trusted to graduate from "Reform" School with honors and will make everything just fine. Sarah has a plan to get lots of royalties from the oil companies and send us all a check!
YourMom, the GOP has been working for the last 50 years to unwind the New Deal.
They have never gotten over the fact that FDR essentially destroyed their party with populism, growth, winning a war, etc.
The policies of FDR and Truman set the tone for the creation of the entire social system that created the middle class. It was so popular that Republicans like Eisenhower and Nixon had to support it to maintain political viability.
The GOP doesn't respect the middle class. They HATE the middle class. They love the consumerism...but they do not want to share their institutions of higher learning with the great unwashed, they don't want to share restaurants, lavatories...ANYTHING...with the great unwashed.
This has ALWAYS been a class war. The problem is that the idiotic middle class fell for all the GOP bullshit about free markets and waving the flag, and NEVER understood what the policies of the GOP would do to them.
NOW, they are getting a taste. I hope they enjoy eating shit.
damn..."DESTRUCTION of the entire social system"...not creation of.
My apologies.
This responsibility falls on the Neanderthal lending institutions, the regulators who didn't step when they should have and the f*ing flippers who drove prices through the roof. But they got theirs and that's all that counts. Bastards.
SHIT...sorry...wrong again...I meant construction...I guess I'm just a bit too agitated today.
Both interesting and amusing that it is the greed of corporate America that is going to hand the election to the Dems. Corporate America has always been leery of the Religious Right. And now that the Religious Right's psychosis is on display for all to see, corporate America is pushing the Dems as the election of a Republican Administration is economic suicide for the U.S.
According to Phil Gramm's philosophy, the financial institutions and wall street are a bunch of whiners.
Pissed@28, I didn't know she said that! What balls! But then again, the Repugs ALWAYS blame the 'Liberal' MSM. I guess I shouldn't be suprised.
P.D. @ 36:
Yep, I heard her say it and you can read about it right here
Fuck Cindy McCain. She is another trust fund baby that got her millions simply by being shot out of the right cannon.
pissed@37, Remember when Hillary was running and the Repugs said she was too shrill? Listening to Palin talk is akin to hearing fingernails scraping a blackboard.
Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans. They will happily wave their flags as they lose their homes, pay outrageous gas prices and watch jobs go overseas.
"Please sir, may I have another".
Liberal@38, Makes me wonder why the Religious Righties are supporting McCain. McCain dumped his first wife for a decades younger rich trophy wife. Isn't that a sin or something?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFKIqun4pkU
P.D. @ 41:
Not to the GOP, that would be considered a smart financial maneuver.
If George Bush were a real man, he'd fly to NY and hang himself off of the statue of Washington on Federal Street.
Liberal AND Proud @ 44:
Wow! I'd Fly the 20 hour flight home for that one.
Liberal AND Proud @ 30:
FDR did all that to save capitalism. He gets himself killed, welcome to the Union of Soviet American Socialist Republics or to the Greater North American Empire. FDR did what he did to save the fat cats, not hurt them.
If I'd been in the 1930s, I'dve wanted Gov. Long of my state for President. He was a real Leftist Mensch. FDR was a borderline RW pussy.
Liberal AND Proud @ 18:
And looks NERVOUS. I wonder just how secure he is?
Calling Ed McMahon...
Bangkok@43, LOL! I guess it would be a shrewed business move. And Repugs do worship the Almighty Dollar.
28 years of GOP bullshit has led to this. Make no mistake, George Bush is only the latest in a long line of traitors...Reagan, Bush I, Gingrich, Hastert, Frist, Delay...that have undermined every facet of our economy system.
P.D. @ 41:
Insider trading.
Greenspan's ability to bullshit served him very well, right up to the point where his pronouncements started to look incredibly stupid.
General, we are indeed a capitalist country...and there is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism. It is a question of the TYPE of capitalism that we practice.
The GOP perverted capitalism in the same manner that it has perverted conservatism.
You can have growing capitalism, so long as it is tempered with proper regulation and in conjunction with the government to ensure that ALL citizens prosper.
What we see now is the result of unrestrained lassez faire capitalism, and it is not pretty. I for one...from a philosphical perspective am GLAD to see Lehman go under. It is what is supposed to happen. That is how the free market works. My problem is with the hypocrite free marketers who scream for government assistance when things go bad for them. My answer is...TOUGH SHIT.
They are all gung ho with the free market destroying American families, but when their turn comes...all of a sudden...they are too important to fail.
I call....BULLSHIT.
gg @ 26:
And then proclaim it shows his sympathy for the "poor Negro"...
Scy @ 34:
Methinks it's too late. The hole is too big. The shovel's too small.
Off-Topic, I have noticed that MSM is only showing a few select pictures of the disaster that Ike has wrought. The last I heard was that areas of Houston were under a curfew. Has there been any looting or other problems? Remember after the floods last summer? I heard there was looting but MSM didn't report it.
It's the economy, stupid.
Hammer it home. We stay on this message and we win the white house. Period.
Why don't we let the market correct all this? All we hear about is we don't need regulation the markets will regulate themselves. What a load of crap, I say let the market correct let the businesses that failed to maintain themselves fail. Let the dow crash they cap Wall street so that the market can't fall 3k points off the DOW, that's BS too. They took the risks let them pay the piper, fuck the shareholders, they want all the profit but none of the risk. If you are an idiot and you bankrupt yourself, you are on your own, but if you lose billions we are supposed to reward that behavior with bailouts and loans? This ideology is corrupt. If it's a free market, free the market. If you want to make sure that people don't take this kind of risk then we need more regulation not less. I have NO sympathy for any of these huge financials that prey on the weak, then when they are weak they need big brother to protect them from the harsh realities of the market. If we don't let the market correct itself , how can we have faith in future markets?
fastfeat @ 50:
LOL
The USA has led the world in matters of money. I suspect that trust will soon be gone based upon our republican experiment. If we don't lead we follow. Soooo who cares what the world thinks? We'll soon find out. Europe is slowing melting down....
The Bush motto...
Situation hopeless but not critical!
Liberal AND Proud @ 52:
Meh, we should have destroyed Capitalism in the 1930s, the first go-round of this. We failed.
Long live the Glorious People's Revolution! May Martha's Vineyard become a place for our Stakhanovites!
Sarcasm, people. If you see this, and think I seriously want Joe Dzughashivili methods of running the US, you are too stupid to be on the Internet.
The economy is tanking and yet you would never know if you followed this political campiagn. A terrible job by the Obama campaign failing to set the tone again and again. It is truly sad that this election as of now is currently John Bushs to lose.
So the Economy wont get better "until the price of American homes Stabilize"?
Wasn't the instability caused by the removal of the lending Caps and the De-Regulation of the lending practices that were in place before the GOP took over the Ship of State?
Bush had previously ruined 5 Companies that he controlled and one Baseball Team, so he had plenty of practice to make ruining the American Economy a Snap.
P.D. @ 55:
I want to give you a quick answer, since this is off-topic but important....
*There is a curfew in downtown and some zip codes from 9 pm to 6 am (I believe). This is due to safety reasons - no stoplights or street lights, plenty of broken glass and downed power lines. That is expected to be enforced through this week.
*No looting reported but that doesn't mean it isn't happening in small pockets. They're asking people to stay where they are until some areas can be cleared enough for people to come safely back.
*Plenty of businesses are open even with no electricity. The Galleria (huge upscale mall) was open already yesterday. Many stations are out of gas though.
I'm not in the Houston area but used to live there and still have colleagues in that area with access to email. What we're seeing in the MSM are mostly the worst parts of Galveston and small towns to the south of Houston. That's where they're working on rescuing people who did not heed the mandatory evacuation orders.
McCain obviously never had to balance a household budget. You can’t keep spending while cutting your income. Sen. McCain, this does not work! No smoke and mirrors or branding will make it so! Paul O’Neill had the sense to get out of Bush’s cabinet because he could not pretend this cut tax-and-spend idea of Bush’s would work. The US in dire straits financially and we need someone with the courage of Obama to right this listing ship of state!
You are right Anais! The major problem in America is the low content voter republicans that don't care about America they only care about what they have to pay in taxes. They don't want to pay any taxes but they want the benefits! They want the roads, they want the police and fire dept, but they don't want to pay for it. Of coarse they don't want to pay for education, health care, or any basic needs.
I guess they think it's great to be ignorant and sick?
Has the ape President shown his ugly face on tv yet.
Or is he too big a coward to face up to the problems he and his party created.
Now dubya is saying briefly that the markets are "resilient" and can handle it. Kinda understated for the scope of events I think. Total time spent commenting on this shiteous mess: less than 30 seconds.
That's one heckuva leader we have.
P.D. @ 55:
Decidedly scarce here in Miami area. I'd have expected more, given that we're often crippled similarly.
Doesn't the new season for American Idle or Prancing with the Star-struck start soon?
Let's start cutting the budget.
First, Bush has to fly commercial...out of his own pocket. Drop Dick Cheney's government medical coverage. He can pay for his own treatments.
George W. Bush...the Peter Principle President.
Where's Lieberman...is he on Wall Street ringing the bell?
No one making less than $200K per year should be voting Republican.
♠♠...Bangkok Bob...♠♠ @ 62:
And wasn't Mr Greenjeans one of the chief supporters of the subprime mortgage fiasco, pushing home ownership for those who "wanted" to own homes but really couldn't afford them?
General, we are indeed a capitalist country…and there is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism. It is a question of the TYPE of capitalism that we practice.
The GOP perverted capitalism in the same manner that it has perverted conservatism.
You can have growing capitalism, so long as it is tempered with proper regulation and in conjunction with the government to ensure that ALL citizens prosper.
What we see now is the result of unrestrained lassez faire capitalism, and it is not pretty. I for one…from a philosphical perspective am GLAD to see Lehman go under. It is what is supposed to happen. That is how the free market works. My problem is with the hypocrite free marketers who scream for government assistance when things go bad for them. My answer is…TOUGH SHIT.
They are all gung ho with the free market destroying American families, but when their turn comes…all of a sudden…they are too important to fail.
I call….BULLSHIT.
yes you are right. The facts are that you cannot have free market, without government oversight to ensure it operates fairly and honestly, you get what we have now! Out of control steal it as quickly as possible damn the consequences.
The republicans have taken the fairness off the table and left everything to the wolves to fight over. The bigger and stronger wolf will take it all and everyone else is left with the scraps. The founding fathers understood that money = advantage and to much money = unfair advantage! That is why we had an estate tax to start with. To kind of level the playing field. Without it to few people have unfair advantage and no one at the bottom will be able to overcome that unfair advantage. That is where we stand today!
No trolls yet. I guess the talking points haven't been faxed.
OK...I'll do it for them.
"Anyone who doesn't support the bailout of the financial system, doesn't care about the potential damage to the American people."
"Tax cuts are needed now more than ever, to stimulate the economy and put more money in people's hands."
"We must not make a rush to judgement an instill willy nilly regulation which could cut off the present economic expansion."
Seems to me this is the view a lot of commentators outside the US have taken as well. I'm inclined to agree.
OTOH, with both sides making promises they probably can't keep, at least Obama isn't promising as much.
"Alexdem Says: Douglas Holtz-Eakin believes that “you’re going to have to raise taxes whether you’re a Republican, a Democrat or a Martian”
Seems to me this is the view a lot of commentators outside the US have taken as well. I’m inclined to agree.
OTOH, with both sides making promises they probably can’t keep, at least Obama isn’t promising as much."
Fortunately we have all three in this campaign...McCain, Obama...Palin.
Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Washington Mutual, the Automotive Industry...
What's next?
This morning McCain gave his reaction and it really troubles me that he keeps on saying that the fundamentals of our economy are strong. He uses this cynical line over and over again.
I don't mean to sound naive and I am trying to give this repulsive man a chance to convince the people that he knows what he is doing.
I heard Obama's statement. It made just a little more sense to me.
Can someone explain this "fundamentals of our economy are strong" thing to me when it's so apparent the last 8 years were a clear unraveling of what Bill Clinton worked so hard to create?
And please SPARE me "the Democrats were in rule the last 2 years" bullsh*t. These fat cat $22,000,000 bonus CEOs should be executed or thrown in jail for life.
Did we all so quickly forget Enron? Are the people in this country really that stupid?
The Wizz mumbles. I've been blogging the Wizz and predicting the Lehman crash for months. Stop by. http://twocanpete.blogspot.com/
It is Greenspan, and almost he alone, who is responsible for the majority of the breakdown we are experiencing now.
The Clenis bears some, too, both for not firing Greenspan in the first place, and then for his pride in the Glass-Steagal "modernization, signed in 1999...
There is plenty of blame to go around. The mindless, gutless, feckless, unprincipled DIMS of the DLC were ALL on board the free-mopney gravy train.
They sat by and let Greenspan replace rising wages (detested and abhorred by the CorpoRat Masters) with 'easy credit.'
The result you now see: We Are SOOOOOOOOOOOO Fucked...
@ 71, Liberal AND Proud Says:
No one making less than $200K per year should be voting Republican.
Gratuitous Edit: According to the oligarchs, no one earning under $200k/yr should be allowed to vote...
pacioccone @ 77:
I wouldn't say all, but rather a majority.... yes, most of the people in this country are *that* stupid...
Forget about Enron. The fact that most Americans had forgotten the economic clusterfuck that was Bush Sr's term, remember those stickers in the early 90s saying "please for fuck's shake buy anything preferably American, but just buy something pretty please!!!!" Well, they had forgotten enough to vote for his idiot son in droves.
This is a country of a few assholes with unmitigated greed and plenty of suckers.
Although I find it fascinating that for such a capitalistic society, the average American sure does know jack about economics...
Liberal AND Proud @ 74:
I was wondering the same, either that or it is too early for them nocturnal vermin...
Free trade, Free markets, Deregulation, Federal Reserves (and all other central banks), World Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. - all conceived and controlled by the elitist, right-leaning, sociopaths and their predecessors who have been at the helm in our country for a very long time.
They care not if any one of us suffers from the economic storms that are blowing. As they have clearly demonstrated in the recent past, they believe in privatizing the profits and socializing the debts - this is VooDoo economics at it's purist -perpetrated by the Conservative gods - Reagan, Bush I and II.
Greenspan says we're headed for a "recession" - who's he kidding?? At the rate of collapse we're seeing now in banking, housing, consumer spending, I'm not even sure if "depression" will be the appropriate term to describe the ensuing collapse.
I'm juts waiting for the Right-Wing Evangelical God (you know, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-controlling) - to reach out his mighty hand and "smote" all these elitist bastards once and for all.
I'd like to know if Gov. Palin thinks that economic devastation is part of God's plan.
♠♠...Bangkok Bob...♠♠ @ 15:
Republicans believe in colon cleansing? You mean they actually realize how full of shit they are?
-Rastignac
McCain the Liar @ 40:
"Well, it is all worth it so long them fags can't marry. Imagine if them fags could marry and have abortions on demand, because that is what I heard about the homosexual agenda: They want to turn our precious white babies into fags, and the ones they can convert into homosexuals they are going to abort them!
And we could not have that, so losing our home is a small price to pay to save all those white babies, I am sure that for our sacrifice Jesus is going to give us a nice double-wide up there in heaven's trailer park. Full of commemorative dishes and spoons, and a big TeeVee with gun rack included. And it will be right next door to heaven's WallMart were I can get all the free piss light beer I want, and cops don't come knocking when I beat the crap out of the wifey. Yeeeehaaaa I am voting republican dang'it!"
Some one call Kudlow and ask that moron what time Goldilocks is supposed to arrive.
I assume that that genius Cramer will now announce that we are in a bear market.
The greatest injustice here is that the parties responcible for this mess will walk away scott free with millions of dollars in their pockets. Personally, I won't be happy until I see these so called "Masters of the World" dragged from their bunkers, their mansions set ablaze, their cars pepossessed, their assets frozen and their children pulled out of thier private schools, and their entire family marched through the public square so we "common folk" can pelt them with rotten fruit and garbage.
John McCain equates these tough economic times to his captivity in...3...2...1...
Liberal AND Proud @ 88:
Naaaah, he is going to scream that we don't know how rough is it out there, with CEOs forced to drive late model mercedes instead of their lambos. The horror! And also that Lehman Brothers and AIG are fine and we should buy buy buy buy their stock.
Liberal AND Proud @ 90:
Ghouliani to equate them to Muslims who hate our markets for their "freedoms" in...9...1...1...
Sorry...
Thanks for some great, insightful comments folks. I shouldve mentioned Greenspans own part in the economy's downfall, as several have pointed out. It's significant that he isn't trying to put lipstick on this pig.
"No trolls yet"
Interesting that. They've got nothing on this.
How long does this thread have to get before it takes the record for being troll-free? Anyone know? :-)
Regards, C
Greenspan's doing his percipacious trick again - aka stating the bleedin' obvious.
"[not over] until the price of homes in the United States stabilizes"
This from the guy who was perfectly sanquine about the dot com asset bubble, said the new economy had rewritten the rules, and had no problem with letting property values rip after 2001.
What's the word .... on the tip of my tongue ..... "accountability" that's it.
This is the same guy, Greenspan, who created all the conditions for the meltdown we are currently expeiencing and then bailed before the full implications of what he had done had really hit home. He has lied to the American public repeatedly about the real dangers to the US Economy while promoting policies designed to bail out his bankster friends and further transfer that burden onto the American taxpayer. And he has been, as head of the federal reserve -- which though deceptively named is a private bank dedicated to transfering American wealth via inflation to foreign interests -- directly involved in the bankrupting, no raping, of American treasury.
So we are listening to him, why, exactly?
Hate to say it, but if he is saying that he hates McCain's economic policy, that is almost -- stress almost -- an endorsement in my mind. When he says he really hates something, that's a flag in my mind that there is something more going on here.
PS -- re: comment 84 -- Palin is not a fundamentalist, BTW. Do your homework before you fling mud -- or worse. I know the mainstream media has been absolutely vicious toward her, but it is time to raise our game beyond what the mainstrem media portrays as balanced coverage. It is time for the American people to wake up, grow up and start thinking critically, honestly and objectively about the current state of this country.
Derision and smearing is the lowest form of discourse. America is better than that, or at least it better become better than that in a hurry.
David, yes she is. She is a fundamentalist Pentecostal. She belongs to a fundamentalist church where church members speak in tongues.
I see the talking points have arrived.
1) Impersonate a Democrat and then bemoan the "smears" against Palin.
2) Be a concern troll.
Liberal AND Proud @ 96:
There are no other kinds of Pentecostals. Pentes would have been burned for Montanism by the Medieval Church.
Palin's religion is fair game, as is her views on teen pregnancy, her views on creationism, etc.
The GOP set these ground rules, we didn't.
If they would like to discuss issues...hey...bring it on.
Oh David, David, David...
Upset about the derision and smearing. Has you radio been broken for the last 20 years?
General, not quite true.
My girlfriend is a Pentecostal. Her father is a minister. Fundamentalists like Palin are considered far outside of the mainstream church. Bottom line, they're viewed as nuts.
I've always thought that when the country is in debt, spending more than it takes in, and owes it's soul to foreign entities, then tax cuts are like quitting your extra part-time job when you are in debt. It doesn't make any sense.
Liberal AND Proud @ 101:
Heh, not where I live they ain't. Pentecostals are almost uniformly dittoheads. Nuttier than Michael Savage kind of dittoheads.
No, she belongs to an Ecumenical church in Alaska, doesn not believe in Israel's right to do whatever it wants and, if you actually look into the matter a little more deeply, is part of a congregation or sect if you will that is against immoral wars. I have heard an interview with her pastor and read some other analysis of where this church fits in the greater scheme of things, and fundamentalist she is not. Plus she shook up things in Alaska pretty good when she was up there.
This might be one of the reasons that so many MSM groups -- including FAUX News BTW -- have been after her so viciously. She is not cut from traditional Washington cloth.
And be careful, this election is very volitile and the electorate are not so easily lead by the MSM as they have in the past, no doubt partly a product of the disappointment many felt when Democrats were elected enmasse in 2006 to both end the war and impeach Bush. One of the implications of the attacks on Palin was disgust by many which has translated into better polling numbers for McCain. So these types of smears could create the opposite effect from what you are seeking.
And while I am no more convinced that McCain would be a good president, there are still many question marks about Obama -- starting with his lack of experience --that make me wonder if he would be any better. And I am often left with the impression that the MSM are being very deferencial to Obama and not really probing his past while at the same time devoting tons of resources -- ala New York Times -- to ripping into Palin. And she's only running as a VP! This is another flag to me that things might not be what they seem.
The truth is out there if you want it. And it will be the truth that sets us free.
David @ 95:
Ditto. Does McCain's plan hurt Greenspan's economic policies? Did you hear Palin repeating that in her administration they would have oversights. The tax payers' dollars have been stolen to cover the losses. Wake up, folks!
David @ 95:
Nah, intellectual dishonesty is the lowest form of discourse... especially when trying to mask facts as "derision and smearing."
David @ 104:
She said God willed the Iraq War. I guess God forgot about the Assyrians, then.
I call troll.
where are the republicans on this thread. i need to hear them explain again why financial regulation is a terrible idea. i also need that lecture about how republicans are fiscally responsible and democrats do all the spending.
maybe i can get an explaination about how's okay for republican governor palin to raise taxes on oil co. but if senator obama talks windfall taxation he's a socialist.
if there's time maybe you can bailouts by the government.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 107:
Indeed...especially if EZ agrees with him...
SchaaaaawIIIING...and a miss...
Those two trogs have it all bass-ackwards!
What does Palin have to do with this thread?
The focus is on the economy.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 107:
Don't forget that according to Palin, the Alaska national pipeline project was a task from God. Nope, no radicalism in such an ignorant statement there...
Concern trolls are funny in a sad kind of way. I love how some are still trying to push the "people are picking on poor Palin" meme, their fax machine must be broken, that meme was soooo last week.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 107:
Hey, General Coyote or whatever, read Palin's quote on the war before you take it out of context.
The MSM is a machine of the big money market who is attacking McCain/Palin. They do not work for the middle class families. They are terrified that McCain/Palin are going to set ethical standards and that meant these robber barons cannot steal your money and transfer it to some foreign world bank. Please think critically; we are in the brink of a collapse, economically. This was their game plan.
Remember, McCain's slogan: We are Americans and not a party system.
Cernig @ 93:
Cernig--
Not sure on the record, but the troll prattle has indeed been deafening.
Sort of hoped dennis might show up for some of his regular abuse, but he quietly sulked away early morning not long after I gave him this from the thread about McCane's medical records:
124
fastfeat Says:
dennis @ 113:
constituent @ 106:
no i would have attended u of idaho for that. what’s not to your liking regarding this entry?
Nothing, really, but your stream of conscience rambling is extremely hard to decipher.
Stream-of-consciousness writing is characterized, by, amongst other things, its lack of standard punctuation. Short of a couple of optional commas missing, proper punctuation in constituent’s post precludes it from being “stream of conscience (sic) rambling.”
Not really sure if that scared him off, but he didn't reply and was gone within fifteen minutes.
My apologies to all if I scared your whipping boy off...
cosbjo @ 6:
The timing of that article is precious. The day before another financial meltdown on Wall Street. Nothing better illustrates how delusional these people are than this drivel by McCain's advisor.
Aaah...i see that the trolls have no brilliance today...so they will attempt to baffle us with bullshit.
Liberal AND Proud @ 110:
Palin was brought as a distraction by the McCain camp. Ergo it makes perfect sense for the McCain trolls to try to derail the thread by bringing Palin, the dimwit, into the fray.
It is the Chewbacca Defense for the GOPers I guess, desperate times require desperate measures. And it must be really tough trying to sell the retard McCain as the one that is going to pull us out of this mess.
This pretty well sums it up!
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3869458&page=1
113:
Should read: Not sure on the record, but the lack of troll prattle has indeed been deafening.
Though I see that a few have awaken now; their brokers are probably calling them collect from the soup kitchen or jail.
fastfeat @ 113:
You bastard, and to think I was certain our resident right wing troll was about to let us know where we can access McCain's medical records for our collective amusement. And you scared him off... gggrrrrrrr....
I love it.
There is a sense of real panic amoungst hardcore Democrat supporters here that the wheels are coming off their Messiah campaign, so they have to bleat even louder how terrible McCain will be for America while totally ignoring how the whole political process is manipulated, corrupted and really an exercize in false choices all the way to the puppet show in the White House.
So when confronted with some real questions about what is going on, people focus on the Christian angle -- because after all, our media presents all Christians as bigoted, close minded and holier than thou (funny, that's how I find contributors here, actually, little case of the pot calling the kettle black?) -- so the real issues never get examined, no discourse about what is really going on takes place -- "You are either for us or against us, for us or a troll (which of course means, having been dehumanized we can be more easily killed later, a common facist phenomenon) -- and guess what? The American people and the American nation lose again. We move away from any hope we have to address the issues killing this nation.
The Powers that Be really have done a remarkable job of dumbing the public down. It's just that they may have killed the golden goose they were feeding on in the process.
Thank you all. You have proven my point in spades.
EZ @ 112:
Wait, I just realized, this thread's got nothing to do with Sarah-of-the-No-Experience.
Why the Hell'd you bring her up?
fastfeat @ 118:
Brokers? Hah!
David @ 120:
And you, too:
This thread =/= Sarah Palin, it = economic issues.
Are our arguments unimpeachable to the point that you must bring up Sarah-of-the-No-Experience?
David @ 120:
I hope you are aware that your point was what a dimwit you are...
I love how the GOP trolls are now totally disowning your very own boy Boosh. And to think that before the campaign started your ilk were defending him for being such a great and moral Christian guy. And now, you simply take your script, scratch Bush out and put Palin instead. Talk about desperation...
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 121:
Why did you respond to david about Palin?
I brought up plenty of ecomonic concerns about the credibility of Greenspan in my initial post at 95. The guy can't be trusted, so why use him to shore up arguments that Obama's economic policies should be trusted?
Someone else in the post prior had intimated that Palin was a fundamentalist, and I pointed out she wasn't, whereupon numerous contributors jumped on that angle, and only that angle, of my post.
My only initial comment about Palin was to be cautious about slinging mud that may not be accurate, because as polling is indicating it might have the reverse effect from what you are seeking.
My only other comment was that the level of discourse on this site and everywhere else for that matter needs to go up considerably or this country is in real trouble.
I can see that perspective was lost on many. Not really surprized.
It will probably, unfortunately, take a big economic collapse this fall to really shake people out of the spell they are under about how this country really works, but as everybody recognizes, change is needed bigtime. It just might be forced change with all the associated pain of losing everything in the process, akin to a drunk who has to hit bottom before they start to really examine their lives.
EZ @ 125:
Because I wanted to hear his reason for dragging something completely irrelevant into a discussion it has no place in.
The ONLY thing that are coming in between ECONOMIX stability are the not just the MIX of price stability but also the MIX economic bag of WAGE disparities among the CONSUMERS.
UNLESS there ARE a healthy distribution of WAGES and PROFIT to ALL rather than having an unhealthey TWO part economic class system of significant difference between population OF haves and haveNOT. There WILL be this OFF-KEYED, DISHARMONY, UNCELEBRATED orchestration of rapid surges and plunges of UNSOUND POLICIES that is unprecedent.
Financial COLLAPSE is a BIG noise. And we haven't heard the loudest YET. We are beginning to see and hear the note of INSURANCE deregulation and POLICY MAKERS are tone deaf to the CUE.
AMERICA MUST TAKE CONTROL of their OWN GOVERNMENT. UNLESS AMERICA truely show THAT control, CONSUMERS and INVESTORS will continue to lose CONFIDENCE. The MAGIC WORD is LAW.
AMERICA remove the law-breakers OUT OF THE MIX. YOU CAN BEGIN CLEANING HOUSE at our OWN federal WHITE HOUSE or face losing our OWN.
If WE don't GET OUR HOUSE IN ORDER BEFORE January 20, 2009 and bring in qualified conductors and players with the right instrument; the orchestra we for several years NOW have forgotten and were accustomed to would have been forgotten and out of practice AND it may take longer to get IT RIGHT this time.
Economy is NOT about prosperity for the ONE PERCENT of the population but MUST trickle down proportionately to the 99%. The distribution of WEALTH is being ROBBED and SWINDLED from the 99% to the 1% of the population. This is NOT RIGHT. AMERICA is NOT IMPERIAL. AMERICA is not about KINGS and QUEENS. WANABEs are an ILLUSION.
There are only so much water a BUCKET can CARRY. Only a select a FEW holds a pitcher, Some WANT more pitcher than it can carry, the rest are holding an empty glass; Sooner or later the GREEDY who try to hold more pitcher than it can will SPILL the water and those with an empty glass die of thirst and where the water falls other will be nourished. That is happening now. OUR WEALTH is spilling to other area of the WORLD and they are flourishing big time from the BUSH DISASTERs.
Greenspan is getting quite nervous, because McCain is a democrat and playing his games in the republican party. Palin is the best choice for McCain. She is tough like Hillary. Trust me on this one.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 123:
To be honest, experience is a "neutral" concept. You can be an idiot with lots of experience in fucking things up, like our current boy king, that is however not the kind of "experience."
Also, I find it troubling that the common right winger is too stupid to even cater to their own interests. The economy is in the shitter, and from a purely self-interested point of view, the last people I would want in charge of the country are: a moron whose only achievement was to be captured by the enemy and who barelly managed to graduate the military academy at the bottom of his class, and his dimwitted partner who took 6 years to finish a degree in communications and ran a debt of over $20 million as the major of a city of less than 10,000 people.
Ya know what? I am no financial expert and I didn't sleep in no holiday inn last night, but I am not totally clueless either. When I see that even one of the old war horse cheerleaders for this supply side horseshit himself say this shit can't be fixed by giving the rich yet another break..... Ya know things are getting bad going to worse.. And yet some, nah, a lot of freaking morons still think the same republicans and the same philosophies that put us in this shithole are the solution... Everyone is tippy toeing around the word but it isn't a recession this callapse will lead us to unless we let the rich hang by their own petards on this... It is a worldwide depression the likes of which has never been experienced in modern times... The 30's depression??? Kid stuff... When you have the world economically linked in the way it has been hooked together since the advent and implimentation of NAFTA and other WTO type schemes, it really becomes true that when one market suffers a cold, the rest of the world can't do anything but to sneeze...
The problem, the deadly situation here is that it ain't no cold... It is shaping up as a world wide financial bout of typhus or more appropriately maybe, consider it a black financial plague of worldwide proportions..spread by the rat of speculators and other get rich quick schemers on the backs of the ignorant and innocent. IF this shit isn't managed properly, and by that, I don't mean by bailing out the wealthy one more time via some scheme to socialize profit and nationalize loss... This planets economic infrastructure will callapse and it will truly be the end of civilization as we know it... When the paper currancy worldwide isn't worth the paper its printed on due to the byzantine myriad business linkages that exists between worldwide financial institutions that have callapsed as result of this seed scandal of the American home mortgage meltdown..... It becomes Weimar Germany.... rendered worldwide......
An impoverished planet... which sick as it sounds... might just be the end game the one world globalists needs and are seeking to finally implement their final solution of minority haves lording over a majority of desparate have nots......It's sick, but I am having a hard time coming up with any other theory for why the worlds financial institutions and the first world governments are seemingly letting or assisting in this thing happening........Before it's all over litterally bed mattresses are actually going to start looking good as investment vehicles. And noone will trust anyone in banking, finance or government......JD
Thanks Cernig and Nicole. I appreciate the economic analysis. It's hard to figure it out but its nice to hear things from trusted sources. Peace.
Why is it that none of these talking heads think to ask ALAN GREENSPAN WHY HE LEFT HIS POST AFTER ALL THOSE LONG SUFFERING DECADES?
Is it because he KNEW this economy was going to collapse and that he didn't want to take the heat?
Coward lying thief bastard.
He is their poster boy.
One edit for my rant @131... 'Privatize profit, nationalize loss'... There... fixed that... Too bad the shit sammich we're being served can't be fixed that easily....JD
Tyler Durden @ 130:
That's how the skull and bones society works. They initiate their own.
David @ 126:
You are trying really hard to appropriate liberal proposals and repackage them as right wing talking points.
However the schizophrenia presented by your line of thought should give you a hint that you are failing miserably.
Just as McCain's ludicrous appropriation of the change meme, you are looking desperate and divorced from reality. Your attempt at repackaging the culprits of this situation as not only the agents of change, but the actual victims... is pathetic at best. I am sure it hurt you having to throw your boy Bush under the bus. But that must have been a small price to pay.
Wonder if this view has any affect on his Wife Andrea Mitchell's reporting... She seems to be pretty objective out there.... jsut a question...
Read Gotz Aly's book on the economics during the second world war: "Hitler's Volksstaat."
Some points to ponder:
"With painstaking diligence the author perused archives and sifted through the records on tax and financial legislation. What were the details of taxation policy during the various phases of Nazi rule? Which income groups were increasingly enlisted to foot the bill for social policies on the one hand and war policies on the other, and at which junctures? How did Hitler's financial policy-makers manage to keep domestic inflation at bay and offload it to the occupied countries?
Aly develops a highly suspenseful approach to examining such supposedly dry questions as financial policy. He scrutinizes the populistic social reforms during the first years of Nazi rule and provides documentation that the broad social safety net for the population exceeded by far the regime's financial resources and therefore soon resulted in excessive debt. The search for new sources of revenue within the country itself led to increased financial repression of the Jewish population, culminating initially in a one billion Reichsmark surcharge, an "atonement payment," that was imposed on Jewish citizens (following the pogrom night of November 9, 1938). As early as December of the same year, however, Göring formulated very concrete steps for converting the assets of German Jews - calculated at some eight billion Reichsmarks - into German State Bonds. The sweep of the plan becomes clear when one considers that even one billion Reichsmarks would already have increased the Reich's revenues by 6 percent.
The author shows how the occupied countries, with the help of well-contrived systems, were saddled with the costs of the occupation and in part also with providing for the German population "within the Reich," thereby wrecking their national economies. Soldiers were issued a type of artificial currency that they could use as tender, for example, in French or Belgian shops. These credit notes were then submitted to the respective national central banks for the ultimate purpose of being redeemed in Germany. Special clearing houses were set up in Berlin which would issue credits for these costs to the occupied countries after the Germans had been victorious. Even young soldiers whose morals were relatively intact found their sense of justice undermined and were corrupted by this system of obfuscation, as Aly demonstrates using the letters that a young Heinrich Böll sent home to his family from France, telling of his hoarding purchases.
Aly researches the various means of financing the national budget that were employed over the entire Nazi period. In addition to the taxation policies mentioned above, he examines the gradually proceeding expropriation and subsequent deportation and annihilation of the Jews, as well as the ransacking of the occupied countries. He proves that the well-known figures such as Hitler, Goebbels, Göring and Himmler were not the only ones to plot and implement the destruction of European Jewry; the regime's financial policy-makers were equally cold-blooded and calculating, as they not only took millions of deaths into account but viewed them as a legitimate means of acquiring additional revenue...."
Tyler Durden @ 119:
Sorry...
I knew he was going to say so, soon, really soon...
And I don't normally pile on about grammar or punctuation, but maybe I found his Achilles heal?
He'll be back.
Dear Tyler @ 136 ,
Your post used a whole bunch of words to basically say nothing of substance about anything I had or have presented.
Anybody who has lived in this country for the last seven years likely wants change. Obama doesn't have a trademark on it.
I am not a Republican or Democrat, I am a father concerned about how my kids are going to negotiate the complete disaster we are handing them. The only way out, as far as I can see, is to start facing the truth about the way things are, the truth how they are going to be -- seen the stock market today? -- and what I need to do to protect myself. Embracing the truth seems to be a fundamental first step, regardless of how uncomfortable that step may feel.
You keep wanting to paint me a certain way so you can attack me, without even a hint of acknowledging anything I may have presented, without any counterpoint, without any additional perspective. If its a good idea, I stole it from the left, if it isn't, it must be a crazy rightwinged idea. This site isn't a place for reasoned discussion, too often it is a love in for a whole bunch of people who already agree. Which also happens on the Republican side, which keeps us all stuck, stuck, stuck.
Our founding fathers, who were so learned and so capable in so many different ways must be writhing in their graves.
Hasn't it been the "us versus them" mentality that has gotten this country into the mess it is in? Isn't this winning at all cost, even if it means sacrificing the truth, a road straight to hell? (In the metaphorical sense versus the religious. I know someone will jump on me for that reference.)
I'm not your enemy, I am trying to, through whatever means are available, share ideas about what I see in the world and encouraging people to do the same. We need to do that in a big, big way for any of that change so many are hungry for to ever be realized. Otherwise we keep going back to gangsters like Greenspan to be told how our world operates.
Insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result. Had enough yet?
I think I jinxed the thread. :-)
Regards, C
David @ 140:
David, stop being emotional. Majority of the bloggers are illiterate about history and go along as a sheep following their foxy master's bleats.
Do you believe that America's economic conditions reflect that of Germany's during the Second World War? All our money here is in the hands of, who? Who is holding our treasury? Ask those questions, guys? We are in the brink of a collapse and only the citizens' outcry will be heard in the streets.
David @ 140:
Oh god, spare me the victimization routine.
I think I was pretty specific in calling out your hypocrisy; You are trying to peddle the people responsible for this clusterfuck as the agents of change.
Your stripes are showing...
Tyler, Tyler, Tyler....
No, I am saying no change is possible -- from either the Republicans or the Democrats -- until people wake up to the fundamental corruption of the political process by banking elites represented by Greenspan, by the media that tries to spin candidates into office on behalf of their corporate masters and by an electorate, like yourself, who are too stupid and narcisisistic to effectively examine anything more than their navel or their reflection in the mirror.
Have the last swipe, I am not going to waste any more time with you.
I am getting a kick out of the typical concern troll MO.
By the end of next month, these idiots will try be convinced that Bush has been a democrat, Obama is part of the establishment, and Palin is a visionary being prosecuted because she threatens the power that be.
Well, look how -- with Obama now interested in attacking Pakistan, Iran and how he wants to boost troop numbers in Afghanistan and maybe stay a little longer in Iraq than he initially discussed -- Obama has transformed the Democrats into the war party. Hilarious!!
Plus originally he was going to fillibuster FISA and then he voted for it. What a man of principle.
Seems to me Obama is looking more and more like Bush lite all the time.
Your shoulders must be sore from all the times the Democratic party has slammed the knife in your back. No wonder you are not all there.
David @ 144:
I thought I had requested you to spare me of your victimization bullshit...
Wow it takes a special kind of gall for someone who was basically peddling that Palin is the outsider being chastised by a media conspiracy.
Yes, David... poor Palin and her band of merry compassionate fundies, thank goodness we have you to set up straight on that one... so we don't have to believe our lying eyes!
BTW, you never replied when pointed out some references that pointed out how you were lying regarding Palin's non-extremist views, as you were claiming. And yet have provided exactly zero facts to back your bullshit. You may think that spouting some faux self righteousness and hiding behind your children are supposed to impress or intimidate anyone...
David @ 146:
OK, now what do you have to say about McCain and Palin?
greenspan helped all this to come to pass.
his opinion is for shit.
phucque greenspan.
Tyler @ 148
You asked, so ...
I hate both branches of the War Party, the Republicans and the Democrats, and refuse to give my stamp of approval to more war and genocide by voting for either party's presidential candidate.
If I voted for anyone, it would be for Ralph Nader knowing the whole system is gerry-rigged such that he would never get in.
I take seriously the idea that the bastards who created this mess will pose as our saviours when the next crisis erupts, and see discussion of the facts on the ground as a important step in ensuring that doesn't happen. I am also very concerned about the outbreak of a war as a means to whip the American people into a patriotic frenzy and as a means of again crushing any dissenting views, as happenned after 911.
I believe in the fundamental greatness of this country -- not of its political and business leaders -- that it could weather a crisis that today seems unavoidable, but believe a massive paradigm shift in how Americans view their world must take place first. And I believe it is my responsibility to try to nudge that shift by learning what I can, sharing what I can and having the courage of my convictions in the face of what can often be derision, dismissal and deception. Out of that process I will either learn more than I knew before, or someone else will.
And I take steps to ensure that whatever is ahead in the days to come, I can take care of the people I love. I appreciate them more than ever now.
Again, I am not your enemy, not your troll to be kicked around when you don't agree with me. I am trying to be change, I suppose, instead of jumping on a bandwagon. Any bandwagon.
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