Presidential Debate: Obama Calls Out McCain's Judgment

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While declining to land any personal blows on John McCain, Barack Obama remained cool, confident and dare I say it?  Presidential in tonight's debate to John McCain's Grampy McCrankypants routine.  It appears that the pundits and flash polls agree, as the majority of those polls scored it for Obama, including Frank "The Hair" Luntz's dial polls on *gasp* FOX News (maybe that's why they don't have them up on the website).

But there was one moment where Obama was direct and on the offense, without the petulance of McCain, as he confronted McCain's rote recitation of being smart but unpopular by supporting the surge.  From the flash polls I've seen, this moment resonated deeply with those undecided voters, especially since McCain would not even look Obama in the eye.

 OBAMA: But understand, that was a tactic designed to contain the damage of the previous four years of mismanagment of this war. And so John likes...John, you like to pretend like the war started in 2007. You talk about the surge, the war started in 2003. And at the time, when the war started, you said it was going to be quick and easy. You said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were, you were wrong. You said that we would be greeted as liberators, you were wrong. You said that there was no history of violence between Shia and Sunni and you were wrong. And so the question is the judgment of whether or not...

MCCAIN: Senator Obama...Senator Obama...Senator Obama doesn't....

OBAMA: ...whether or not the question is who is best equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military, how we make sure that we are prepared and ready for the next conflict and I think we can take a look at our judgment.

The Obama campaign provided some fact checks on McCain's claims about the surge, below the fold:

McCain: "Senator Obama said the surge could not work, said it would increase sectarian violence, said it was doomed to failure. Recently on a television program he said it exceeded our wildest expectations, but yet after conceding that, he still says that he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that again today."

OBAMA HAS REPEATEDLY SAID THAT WHILE THE SURGE COULD HELP TO REDUCE VIOLENCE IN IRAQ, IT DID NOT CHANGE THE POLITICAL DYNAMIC IN IRAQ

Obama Said That With A Surge, "We Might See Some Improvement In Certain Neighborhoods" But That It Won't Change The Underlying Dynamic.  Obama said, "I don't think there's been any doubt that if we put U.S. troops in that, in the short term, we might see some improvement in certain neighborhoods because the militias are going to fade back into the community. That's one of the characteristics of what we've seen. The problem is that we don't see any change in the underlying dynamic which is Shia militias infiltrating the government, Sunni insurgents continuing the fight, that's the essence of the problem and unless we say that we're going to occupy Iraq indefinitely, we're gonna continue to see problems."  [WQAD, 3/11/07]

Obama Said the Purpose of the Surge Was to Allow Iraqi Leaders to Reconcile, But they Were Not Reconciling. Obama" "The stated purpose of the surge was to enable Iraq's leaders to reconcile. But as the recent report from the Government Accountability Office confirms, the Iraqis are not reconciling. Our troops fight and die in the 120 degree heat to give Iraq's leaders space to agree, but they aren't filling it. ... This only underscores the point - the solution in Iraq is political, it is not military. Violence is contained in some parts of Baghdad. That's no surprise. Our troops have cleared these neighborhoods at great costs. But our troops cannot police Baghdad indefinitely - only Iraqis can." [Obama Speech, 9/12/07]

MCCAIN WAS A CHEERLEADER FOR A POLICY THAT SENT TOO FEW TROOPS IN THE FIRST PLACE

McCain Supported The Administration's Military Strategy For Iraq, Saying Only 100,000 Troops Would Be Needed. Tim Russert: "Today, the front page of The Washington Post, 'War Plans Target Hussein Power Base. Scenarios feature a smaller force, narrower strikes,' calling for 100,000 rather than the 500,000 we used in the Persian Gulf War, and not taking out power dams and electric grids, but focusing on Saddam and his Republican Guards. Is that what you see?" McCain responded, "Yes...And I believe that this strategy is based on one fundamental fact: Saddam Hussein is dramatically weaker than he was before.  And what Iraq-in 1991-what Iraqi soldier is going to die for Saddam Hussein if he thinks he's on his way out? And so from everything I can tell, that seems to be a very good strategy, and I think we're going to take great advantage to the precision of our weapons that can be delivered from the air." [NBC, Meet the Press, 9/22/02]

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274 comments

The Bush Economy

I was walking
down the isle
of the grocery store
and I heard
a little boy
ask his mother,

"Mommy,
can we buy
dog food
with
food stamps?"

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

Also his body language left a lot to be desired....
He also didn't do the eye contact thing and came across too angry....
Thought he came across as a jerk too....

Is the Coast Clear?--- @ 4:

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

Also his body language left a lot to be desired....
He also didn't do the eye contact thing and came across too angry....
Thought he came across as a jerk too....

Note: reference to McCain's performance----

I’m going to go against a lot of the blogosphere and MSM tonight and call tonight’s debate a draw. There weren’t really any statements by either candidate that will be getting a lot of play tomorrow, and tonight’s performances won’t move a lot of numbers in the polls (although this is ultimately good news for Obama).

I thought Obama missed a huge opportunity tonight. McCain made a fairly extraordinary, and fairly dim-witted, statement that really nobody picked up on afterward. He said that, if faced with a ballooning budget deficit, he will “freeze spending and only allow spending on defense, veteran’s benefits, and entitlements”. That leaves out a whole slew of things that are absolutely vital to the American people. Medicare, Medicaid, children’s health insurance, education, research and technology, improving our country’s crumbling infrastructure, disaster relief, etc. etc. etc. Obama could have easily pounced on this misstep by McCain and it would be all over the media. If Obama knows what’s good for him, his campaign will press this issue in the days to come and at the next debate.

OUCH!!!!

After the debate, during the follow ups and satellite interviews, after Biden was interview, they went to Giuliani (because Palin was being hidden/protected from the media) and he looked doped up drunk or stoned off his ASS during the interview. He hade big shit-eating grin on his face while being introduced, and stumbled through the republican talking points. He even admitted that he didn't see the entire debate - something to the effect of "I watched the first part when they talked about the economy" (paraphrasing). What a joke. Biden was on all the major network and cable shows, where was Palin?

As I watched I kept telling Obama to hit back, call McCain for his flip-flopping, lies, and erratic behavior. How about the fact that he voted against raising the minimum wage 19 times but can't remember how many homes he has? How about how McCain wants the rich to get permanent tax breaks, none for the middle class, and voted against equal pay for women? How about privitizing social security? Why did he vote against the GI Bill if he cares about the military? I just hopes he gets him on the next debates.

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

So How do you REALLY feel?
:<[)

It was Obama's to lose, and he lost it by not winning. No one expected much from McCain, and he went on the attack. He had Obama on the ropes constantly, and Obama refused to punch back.

That's not good.

This county is in a mess. Our economic foundation is crumbling around us. We are in two wars. Corruption and subverting of the Constitution no longer surprises us.

And Obama is engaged in a Gentleman's Debate.

McCain was the one who was full of righteous indignation.

What kind of looking glass have we slipped through?

McCain blew his Pakistan response....

Obama pointed out that we had backed a dictator in Pakistan and over a ten year period paid him $10 Billion dollars... all of which has alienated the Pakistani people from America and our interests in the region.

McCain countered with Obama was wrong and that Pakistan was a failed state...

Wrong answer Johnny Wrinkles!

The Military Coup in Pakistan: Implications for Nuclear Stability in South Asia

Gaurav Kampani, CNS Research Associate, October 1999.

On 12 October 1999, the Pakistani army led by General Pervez Musharraf ousted the civilian government headed by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in a coup.(1) The overthrow of a legitimately constituted civilian government by the army for the fourth time in Pakistan's 52-year history has underscored the question of political stability and viability of democracy in the country.

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/gaurav.htm

McP

Impeach cheney and bush @ 9:

As I watched I kept telling Obama to hit back, call McCain for his flip-flopping, lies, and erratic behavior. How about the fact that he voted against raising the minimum wage 19 times but can't remember how many homes he has? How about how McCain wants the rich to get permanent tax breaks, none for the middle class, and voted against equal pay for women? How about privitizing social security? Why did he vote against the GI Bill if he cares about the military? I just hopes he gets him on the next debates.

there will be plenty for the next debate. upon review, I have to say that Obama got in some really good whacks, especially this one.

JUDGEMENT: "YOU WERE WRONG! AND I'M TELLING YOU TO YOUR FACE!"

Were you guys watching the same debate the rest of the country was? Most post-debate polls show that 70-85% of the nation thought McCain wiped the floor with that mobster Obama.

Sure...Obama was polished. but when you spend all of your prep time memorizing your lines, you should look good.

It was very obvious that McCain got under his skin many times. In fact, on 8 occassions, Barack Hussein Obama started a sentence with "You're right, Senator McCain."

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

BigTallMatt @ 6:
it's a draw if you omit the content.

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

Excellent analysis!

Did Obama really describe Venezuela as a "rogue state"? And did he state that a pre-emptive military strike into Pakistan to take out Bin Laden would be justified if the Pakistan government did do so? Well, well, well . . . sounding a little Bush-like, no?

BigTallMatt @ 6:

I’m going to go against a lot of the blogosphere and MSM tonight and call tonight’s debate a draw. There weren’t really any statements by either candidate that will be getting a lot of play tomorrow, and tonight’s performances won’t move a lot of numbers in the polls (although this is ultimately good news for Obama).

I thought Obama missed a huge opportunity tonight. McCain made a fairly extraordinary, and fairly dim-witted, statement that really nobody picked up on afterward. He said that, if faced with a ballooning budget deficit, he will “freeze spending and only allow spending on defense, veteran’s benefits, and entitlements”. That leaves out a whole slew of things that are absolutely vital to the American people. Medicare, Medicaid, children’s health insurance, education, research and technology, improving our country’s crumbling infrastructure, disaster relief, etc. etc. etc. Obama could have easily pounced on this misstep by McCain and it would be all over the media. If Obama knows what’s good for him, his campaign will press this issue in the days to come and at the next debate.

I believe Obama could have given McCain more blows like expanding on that statement regarding McCain not speaking to Spain who is obviously a Nato ally. Didn't McCain also forget where Spain was during that specific interview?...He thought it was in Latin America....Geesh....I would have said, "I'm worried about you John. You indicated during an interview that Spain was in Latin America. I'm sorry, but that is really troubling..."

It was pretty awesome, especially with the split screen setup...watching Johnny McCain bob and weave as the hits pelted him.

You said it McCain. Most of the NeoCons and Republicans were out front saying it. Time for you to catch up to history.

I hate to say it, I really do, but tonight I realized that the difference in Barack Obama of the 2004 Democratic National Convention and the 2008 of the US Presidential election was indeed a palpable one. But when someone else has said it better, I think it's good to simply let them do the talking:

Canadian rocker and political activist Matthew Good wrote:

If change is what this election is all about then tonight’s debate proved one thing – the sort of change that Americans can expect is equitable to removing dirty socks and putting on a new pair only slightly less so. There was absolutely no electricity or urgency emanating from Barack Obama, who played into McCain’s set pieces from the onset. It was the old Republican warhorse blowing his own horn and the champion of change, promoted as such primarily because of who currently inhabits the White House, who seemed more an obliging centrist than anything else.

This evening’s debate proved one thing - that the American political landscape is no less a quagmire than those foreign wars that the nation is currently embroiled in. The willingness to truly take chances, to risk, and through impassioned resolve ignite the imaginations of the people has fled, replaced by placation’s ever promising embrace of success. No, democracy is not alive and well in America, only the corporate branding of two political parties and their struggle to dominate the market. In fact, it’s a trait that is almost universal in the Western world.

Leading a nation requires, above all else, true vision, and neither man that stood on that stage this evening possesses it. True, they maintain beliefs, but in the end what occurred tonight was a tangle of rhetoric devoid of vision. Words were spoken, jabs were traded, experience and temperament were questioned, but a visionary leader was not in that building.

I took notes throughout the debate, but looking at them now it seems pointless to comment. Victory in Iraq? Defeat has already occurred, but like a car crash victim drowning in shock it simply hasn’t sunk in yet, just as it hadn’t in 1971. Venezuela claimed a rogue state, the linguistic misinterpretation of ‘wipe Israel off the face of the map’ presented as fact, the Russians chastised for their actions while the Georgian government is showered with praise, and the unbelievable assertion that al-Qaeda will claim a foothold in Iraq if the US fails in its mission employed as the fear card. The Shia would eat them alive were the US to leave the country, but let’s not let reality get in the way.

No, tonight was a lesson in the exhaustive inanity of American politics. The Muses, it seems, have cast their euphoric haze and wait with anticipation to see what dead loss is born.

This is what it has come to.

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

Yes. And how McCain personally blew Khadafy.

Neo-classical Secular Humanist @ 18:

Did Obama really describe Venezuela as a "rogue state"? And did he state that a pre-emptive military strike into Pakistan to take out Bin Laden would be justified if the Pakistan government did do so? Well, well, well . . . sounding a little Bush-like, no?

to boosh, bin laden is on a tape they pull out next week. where is the orange alert when you need it.

MCCAIN: "Senator Obama…Senator Obama…Senator Obama doesn’t"

Let me Guess...he doesnt understand??

That was the only bullet Mccain had in his chamber..

Sorry Mccain...we need more than that!!

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 22:

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

Yes. And how McCain personally blew Khadafy.

*juice spit*
*"dammit! I gotta clean this up."*

Meat @ 21:

I hate to say it, I really do, but tonight I realized that the difference in Barack Obama of the 2004 Democratic National Convention and the 2008 of the US Presidential election was indeed a palpable one. But when someone else has said it better, I think it's good to simply let them do the talking:

Canadian rocker and political activist Matthew Good wrote:

If change is what this election is all about then tonight’s debate proved one thing – the sort of change that Americans can expect is equitable to removing dirty socks and putting on a new pair only slightly less so. There was absolutely no electricity or urgency emanating from Barack Obama, who played into McCain’s set pieces from the onset. It was the old Republican warhorse blowing his own horn and the champion of change, promoted as such primarily because of who currently inhabits the White House, who seemed more an obliging centrist than anything else.

This evening’s debate proved one thing - that the American political landscape is no less a quagmire than those foreign wars that the nation is currently embroiled in. The willingness to truly take chances, to risk, and through impassioned resolve ignite the imaginations of the people has fled, replaced by placation’s ever promising embrace of success. No, democracy is not alive and well in America, only the corporate branding of two political parties and their struggle to dominate the market. In fact, it’s a trait that is almost universal in the Western world.

Leading a nation requires, above all else, true vision, and neither man that stood on that stage this evening possesses it. True, they maintain beliefs, but in the end what occurred tonight was a tangle of rhetoric devoid of vision. Words were spoken, jabs were traded, experience and temperament were questioned, but a visionary leader was not in that building.

I took notes throughout the debate, but looking at them now it seems pointless to comment. Victory in Iraq? Defeat has already occurred, but like a car crash victim drowning in shock it simply hasn’t sunk in yet, just as it hadn’t in 1971. Venezuela claimed a rogue state, the linguistic misinterpretation of ‘wipe Israel off the face of the map’ presented as fact, the Russians chastised for their actions while the Georgian government is showered with praise, and the unbelievable assertion that al-Qaeda will claim a foothold in Iraq if the US fails in its mission employed as the fear card. The Shia would eat them alive were the US to leave the country, but let’s not let reality get in the way.

No, tonight was a lesson in the exhaustive inanity of American politics. The Muses, it seems, have cast their euphoric haze and wait with anticipation to see what dead loss is born.

This is what it has come to.

I hope Matthew Good can play a mean guitar but it's obvious that he does not understand democracy. Democracy is not about leadership/vision/solutions/management but about those who accept the responsibility to carry out the wishes of the citizenry who are the sole source of legitimacy. Those who accept this responsibility are disposable as it is their office and with what they are charged that lives on.

Neo-classical Secular Humanist @ 18:

Did Obama really describe Venezuela as a "rogue state"? And did he state that a pre-emptive military strike into Pakistan to take out Bin Laden would be justified if the Pakistan government did do so? Well, well, well . . . sounding a little Bush-like, no?

Whoops . . ". . . Pakistan government DIDN'T do so?"

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 25:

Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s @ 22:

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

Yes. And how McCain personally blew Khadafy.

*juice spit*
*"dammit! I gotta clean this up."*

And there's the lib argument!

Meat @ 21:

I hate to say it, I really do, but tonight I realized that the difference in Barack Obama of the 2004 Democratic National Convention and the 2008 of the US Presidential election was indeed a palpable one. But when someone else has said it better, I think it's good to simply let them do the talking:

Er, sorry. I meant to offer a link to Matthew Good's blog entry.

Jack Cafferty: If Sarah Palin Being One Heartbeat Away "Doesn't Scare The Hell Out Of You, It Should"
He warned the viewers:

"If John McCain wins this woman will be one 72-year-old's heartbeat away from being President of the United States. And if that doesn't scare the hell out of you, it should."

If Sara can't convince you to vote for Obama, she should convince you to vote against mcKeatingFive.

BTW, Nicole,

You are AWESOME!

I watched the entire debate, and didn’t keep count, but McCain must have mention Ronald Reagan at least 7 times. I guess it’s carry over from the republican debates - mention Reagan as many times as you can, as if it will get you more votes down the road. Throughout the debate, McCain stuck to his old, tired talking points - reduce spending, cut spending, eliminate wasteful spending - with absolutely no mention of what to do to solve the economic crisis, the healthcare crisis, improving education, etc.

And despite what the pundits on the TV might say, Obama did an excellent job of tieing McCain to the failed economic and foreign policies of George W. Bush. He tied McCain to Bush every chance he got, and even though Obama started some of his points/counterpoints off by agreeing with McCain, he quickly made it perfectly clear where the agreement ended, and the difference in opinion/policies started. Everyone agrees on the basics, but how we get there is the fundamental difference. Obama spelled out his ideals, while McCain hid behind his mundane, repetitive talking points.

Again, Obama referred to Venezuela as a "rogue state". This is pure americo-centric distortion if the following report is correct.

Kind of unsettling.

CandleintheWind @ 11:

It was Obama's to lose, and he lost it by not winning. No one expected much from McCain, and he went on the attack. He had Obama on the ropes constantly, and Obama refused to punch back.

That's not good.

This county is in a mess. Our economic foundation is crumbling around us. We are in two wars. Corruption and subverting of the Constitution no longer surprises us.

And Obama is engaged in a Gentleman's Debate.

McCain was the one who was full of righteous indignation.

What kind of looking glass have we slipped through?

Actually you have it backwards. It is general conventional wisdom that McCain does better in debates and Obama does better in speeches. Further, at McCain's request, the subject of this debate was foreign policy, which is supposedly McCain's strong suit.

McCain did not come close to meeting expectations and that's reflected in the audience responses. The flash polls during the debate were stunningly against McCain. The comments after the fact said that McCain looked cranky, was rude, refused to make eye contact whereas Obama looked in control and rose above petty personal attacks.

Look, while it happened, I was chomping at the bit because I saw multiple areas where Obama could have had McCain back on his heels and he refused to refute out and out lies that McCain told. I thought for sure the pundits would call this one for McCain and I am very happy to have been wrong.

Even Charles "PNAC" Krauthammer thought Obama won this one.

I am from Chicago and am a true blue Obama supporter - however, I thought that he seemed tired tonight, was caught up in generalities, veered off track and wasn't as focused as I would liked to have seen him. I thought McCain did pull out ahead in this debate - as sad as I am to say it. I think Obama can really nail McCain when it comes to domestic policy, so I am hopeful for the next debate. I can't even fathom a McCain/Palin administration.

I just reviewed a bunch of instant polls and all except Drudge and one media outlet in TX have Obama winning, usually by comfortable-to-huge margins.

whigworld @ 15:

Were you guys watching the same debate the rest of the country was? Most post-debate polls show that 70-85% of the nation thought McCain wiped the floor with that mobster Obama.

Sure...Obama was polished. but when you spend all of your prep time memorizing your lines, you should look good.

It was very obvious that McCain got under his skin many times. In fact, on 8 occassions, Barack Hussein Obama started a sentence with "You're right, Senator McCain."

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

I realize you are a troll, but I had to comment on the fact that of almost every poll of undecideds who watched the debate, around 2/3 of those asked said Obama won the debate.

And that is huge. I hear lamenting that Obama was not as pointed as he should have been but Americans have had 8 years of a smirking, angry, redneck fool and the last things most of us want are another 4 of an old, senile, angry, smirking incompetent fool.

Obama is Presidential. McCain is not. It's as simple as that.

To be truthful, not watching the debate, (I'll watch it tomorrow), I score McCain +1 on the surge and Obama +1 on the issue of getting into the war in the first place. Since the war has cost north of $550B - I score the war in favor of Obama, because of the damage to the economy.

From what I hear, the actual confrontation happening in Iraq is Shiite versus Kurd lately. We'll see how that turns out. But, in the end, we need to shut off the cash spigot that McCain wouldn't mind if it was kept turned on for 100 years.

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 10:

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

So How do you REALLY feel?
:<[)

well, if you're a regular c&l visitor, you know i'm a perfect english gentleman, who would never resort to unsportsmanlike conduct.

Hey moran, please use spell check before posting your neocon rantings...thanks
whigworld @ 15:

Were you guys watching the same debate the rest of the country was? Most post-debate polls show that 70-85% of the nation thought McCain wiped the floor with that mobster Obama.

Sure...Obama was polished. but when you spend all of your prep time memorizing your lines, you should look good.

It was very obvious that McCain got under his skin many times. In fact, on 8 occassions, Barack Hussein Obama started a sentence with "You're right, Senator McCain."

This election will be a dogfight, and will come down to the wire. but once the entire country hears about Obama's associations with terrorists and criminals, and realizes that a preident needs experience, not just charisma, then McCain will win out.

Debate in Mississippi: Obama said his Republican rival has been a loyal supporter of the unpopular president across the past eight years, adding that the current economic crisis is "a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by President Bush and supported by Sen. McCain." "And we can't afford another four," he added moments later.

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 30:

Cenk at TYT says Palin ain't working out in the mock debates and mock press conferences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJp3_6eiMJA - Disastrous.

I dont' think they're going to have a VP debate this time.

bullfrog @ 39:

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 10:

bullfrog @ 3:

obama did look very presidential.

mccain was coherent, which was an improvement over the last couple weeks, but ultimately came off as a snickering, neurotic used car salesman, with yellow teeth.

So How do you REALLY feel?
:<[)

you haven't seen me around? with a handle like this?

well, if you're a regular c&l visitor, you know i'm a perfect english gentleman, who would never resort to unsportsmanlike conduct.

Obama's strategy was to play it *smart* (not merely safe) and prove to the fence-sitters and leaners that he has the grace, the intellect, the equilibrium to be President:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/27/01636/2654/149/612087

And the strategy succeeded brilliantly. McCain is now in a deep, deep hole and I don't expect him to climb out.

Did any body else see Rachael Maddow talk about how John "the MehAVEapRICK" MCcain says "sure" to agreeing to the bail out and have some big republican "bear?" explain why that is. I love her, and not because I'm a big ol' dyke myself. I think that this is a combo Oct. suprise / heist & John McCain has screwed it up. I think that this should go viral big time...am I crazy? see ya

Neo-classical Secular Humanist @ 26:

Meat @ 21:

I hate to say it, I really do, but tonight I realized that the difference in Barack Obama of the 2004 Democratic National Convention and the 2008 of the US Presidential election was indeed a palpable one. But when someone else has said it better, I think it's good to simply let them do the talking:

Canadian rocker and political activist Matthew Good wrote:

If change is what this election is all about then tonight’s debate proved one thing – the sort of change that Americans can expect is equitable to removing dirty socks and putting on a new pair only slightly less so. There was absolutely no electricity or urgency emanating from Barack Obama, who played into McCain’s set pieces from the onset. It was the old Republican warhorse blowing his own horn and the champion of change, promoted as such primarily because of who currently inhabits the White House, who seemed more an obliging centrist than anything else.

This evening’s debate proved one thing - that the American political landscape is no less a quagmire than those foreign wars that the nation is currently embroiled in. The willingness to truly take chances, to risk, and through impassioned resolve ignite the imaginations of the people has fled, replaced by placation’s ever promising embrace of success. No, democracy is not alive and well in America, only the corporate branding of two political parties and their struggle to dominate the market. In fact, it’s a trait that is almost universal in the Western world.

Leading a nation requires, above all else, true vision, and neither man that stood on that stage this evening possesses it. True, they maintain beliefs, but in the end what occurred tonight was a tangle of rhetoric devoid of vision. Words were spoken, jabs were traded, experience and temperament were questioned, but a visionary leader was not in that building.

I took notes throughout the debate, but looking at them now it seems pointless to comment. Victory in Iraq? Defeat has already occurred, but like a car crash victim drowning in shock it simply hasn’t sunk in yet, just as it hadn’t in 1971. Venezuela claimed a rogue state, the linguistic misinterpretation of ‘wipe Israel off the face of the map’ presented as fact, the Russians chastised for their actions while the Georgian government is showered with praise, and the unbelievable assertion that al-Qaeda will claim a foothold in Iraq if the US fails in its mission employed as the fear card. The Shia would eat them alive were the US to leave the country, but let’s not let reality get in the way.

No, tonight was a lesson in the exhaustive inanity of American politics. The Muses, it seems, have cast their euphoric haze and wait with anticipation to see what dead loss is born.

This is what it has come to.

I hope Matthew Good can play a mean guitar but it's obvious that he does not understand democracy. Democracy is not about leadership/vision/solutions/management but about those who accept the responsibility to carry out the wishes of the citizenry who are the sole source of legitimacy. Those who accept this responsibility are disposable as it is their office and with what they are charged that lives on.

That is a terribly cynical and ultimately complacent attitude and approach to a democratic nation. Your nation, realistically, could be on the verge of what will be historically regarded as its rapid decline and eventual collapse, and you are arguing semantics, saying, 'It's not fair to expect a leader to have leadership capabilities, or to have vision, or to offer any solutions, or to be able to manage - well, anything!'

A little perspective is important in this instance. While certainly, anyone can theoretically be elected (see: Palin, Sarah), Americans ought to set their sights a little damn higher if they want to keep their nation alive for a few more years. And when someone as intelligent, charismatic, and motivated as Barack Obama appears on the scene, espousing progressive and grounded ideas that America's youth can believe in, yes, it's a terrible thing when he forgets to be that person.

Obama panders to the religious, panders to the military-industrial complex and its effect on the American psyche, the subsequent quasi-xenophobic paranoia and culture of fear, ad infinitum. Obama is trying to prove that, don't worry, he's not really all that liberal or anything. And don't worry, he's tough and he'll use force to defend nations like Israel, outright repeat lies about places like Russia and Iran, ad nauseam.

Maybe this is what he thinks he has to do to win. And maybe he's right.

But that doesn't make what he's doing right.

This is a very cynical approach to democracy, as well as a simplistic one. Someone in Barack Obama's position has a tremendous opportunity to inspire and to truly fight for a more progressive, more tolerant America. But he instead panders to the religious, he panders to the military-industrial complex and general xenophobic fears, and he surrenders to the fear of truly attacking McCain because McCain is a 'war hero.'

StirFry @ 42:

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 30:

Cenk at TYT says Palin ain't working out in the mock debates and mock press conferences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJp3_6eiMJA - Disastrous.

I dont' think they're going to have a VP debate this time.

they were going to postpone hers because they were going to postpone this one. that thought is toast.

after cafferty and the cnn lady, and kathy the conservative and new repug and....
mcC*nt's judgement and political future is shot.

My impression is that both candidates came across as a little weak and "off-game" - but that can be explained by the fact that both of these guys were in Washington earlier trying to work on the pending Wall Street fiasco. We should all give them a small pass based on that because few of us would be on our best game after flying to DC, spending endless hours in meetings, and then flying to Mississippi for a debate.

That said, I think the debate itself was a very nearly perfect draw. Both candidates gave specifics, neither made a gaffe. Both articulated a similar position on most issues, with maybe a slight shift left for Obama and a slight shift right for McCain.

Obama scores a few points for style. The guy is good at speaking sincerely.

McCain scores a few points for understanding the complexity of international affairs. He does know the subtleties of how this stuff works.

Verdict: A tie.

titmouse @ 45:

Did any body else see Rachael Maddow talk about how John "the MehAVEapRICK" MCcain says "sure" to agreeing to the bail out and have some big republican "bear?" explain why that is. I love her, and not because I'm a big ol' dyke myself. I think that this is a combo Oct. suprise / heist & John McCain has screwed it up. I think that this should go viral big time...am I crazy? see ya

Link?

whigworld @ 15:
Is this your family? --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wroj0FLvzs
You think Obama is an "Ay-rab? "

From many of you, the consensus appears to be that Obama was too much a gentleman in tonight's debate and that he should go on the attack. Partially I agree. I feel your frustration. I get angry, too. I've spent many a night walking my deck, railing at the moon and wanting to grab that lying piece of crap McCain by the throat and finish what the North Vietnamese didn't.

But then I calm down and think. (A little thing we liberals often do!) And it occurs to me that that is exactly what the McCain camp would want. Anything to paint Obama as wild and reactionary. Plus, it would waste Obama's time correcting McCain's slanders instead of spreading his own message. So... do we play their game or create our own rules?

McCain has amassed a long list of lies that can be and have been debunked by many news orgs and fact check groups. Let them do their job. Obama's campaign can flood the airways with replay after replay of McCains lies in commercial after commercial. Let them do their job. And Obama? He can be "above the fray", delivering clear and compelling statements and, as more and more people are beginning to see, projecting the image of a leader and President.

So the pressure and focus needs to be on McCain. And he can be as slippery as an eel. Rather than attack, I would like to see Obama learn to deflect. In football, when a linebacker is trying to get to the quarterback, he doesn't tackle everyone in his way. He pushes them off, he deflects them. That's what Obama needs to do as we approach 11/4.

Example:

McCain: Obama is the most liberal Senator in Congress.

Obama: John, I'm far from the most liberal Senator and you know that. So let's return to the subject of the discussion....

See? Toss off the bullshit. It'll make McCain look petty and frustrate the hell out of him! (That's the fun part.) You don't always have to be a bastard equal to the bastard you're dealing with.

I like the casual way the trolls throw out "facts" like whigworld's spew about "Most post-debate polls show that 70-85% of the nation thought McCain wiped the floor with that mobster Obama". Let's break down the spin here. First they cover their ass with a vague 'most' so if we find 100 polls that show the other thing they can continue to rant that there are more the other way. It doesn't need to be true but it is how they play the game. Then they throw out some 'hard numbers' oooh, 70-85% wow, that looks scientific. Never mind that only polls near 70% are places like Sludge -- and even there the last time I checked it was 68/30 for McLame. Next they go for the hyperbole -- here we have the classic image of the tough crime fighter battling the evil foe -- McLame (who can't physically lift his hands over his head) wiping the floor with the 'mobster' (got to throw in the demonizing element) Obama.

Wow, totally scripted tripe! I wonder how many lessons at "Karl Roves School of Insulting Typing" it took this troglodyte to learn it all?

"The dead have risen and they're voting Republican!" -- Bart Simpson

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 47:

StirFry @ 42:

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 30:

Cenk at TYT says Palin ain't working out in the mock debates and mock press conferences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJp3_6eiMJA - Disastrous.

I dont' think they're going to have a VP debate this time.

they were going to postpone hers because they were going to postpone this one. that thought is toast.

after cafferty and the cnn lady, and kathy the conservative and new repug and....
mcC*nt's judgement and political future is shot.

lucky for him , he's got the queen of beer to take care of him in his Depends years.

note to whigworld @ 15:

Both hands on the keyboard and please keep your head out of your ass. Thank you.

Meat @ 46:

Neo-classical Secular Humanist @ 26:

Meat @ 21:

I hate to say it, I really do, but tonight I realized that the difference in Barack Obama of the 2004 Democratic National Convention and the 2008 of the US Presidential election was indeed a palpable one. But when someone else has said it better, I think it's good to simply let them do the talking:

Canadian rocker and political activist Matthew Good wrote:

This is what it has come to.

I hope Matthew Good can play a mean guitar but it's obvious that he does not understand democracy. Democracy is not about leadership/vision/solutions/management but about those who accept the responsibility to carry out the wishes of the citizenry who are the sole source of legitimacy. Those who accept this responsibility are disposable as it is their office and with what they are charged that lives on.

That is a terribly cynical and ultimately complacent attitude and approach to a democratic nation. Your nation, realistically, could be on the verge of what will be historically regarded as its rapid decline and eventual collapse, and you are arguing semantics, saying, 'It's not fair to expect a leader to have leadership capabilities, or to have vision, or to offer any solutions, or to be able to manage - well, anything!'

A little perspective is important in this instance. While certainly, anyone can theoretically be elected (see: Palin, Sarah), Americans ought to set their sights a little damn higher if they want to keep their nation alive for a few more years. And when someone as intelligent, charismatic, and motivated as Barack Obama appears on the scene, espousing progressive and grounded ideas that America's youth can believe in, yes, it's a terrible thing when he forgets to be that person.

Obama panders to the religious, panders to the military-industrial complex and its effect on the American psyche, the subsequent quasi-xenophobic paranoia and culture of fear, ad infinitum. Obama is trying to prove that, don't worry, he's not really all that liberal or anything. And don't worry, he's tough and he'll use force to defend nations like Israel, outright repeat lies about places like Russia and Iran, ad nauseam.

Maybe this is what he thinks he has to do to win. And maybe he's right.

But that doesn't make what he's doing right.

This is a very cynical approach to democracy, as well as a simplistic one. Someone in Barack Obama's position has a tremendous opportunity to inspire and to truly fight for a more progressive, more tolerant America. But he instead panders to the religious, he panders to the military-industrial complex and general xenophobic fears, and he surrenders to the fear of truly attacking McCain because McCain is a 'war hero.'

Aaaannnd my last paragraph is actually a quick first-draft of the post itself. Ignore it.

Meat @ 46:
why can't Obama genuinely feel that way?
he just seems way more genuine than a 26-year pee oh fucking dubya!!!!

McCain’s “My Campaign’s In the Shitter Blues”

September 15 (Monday)

Financial tsunami,
economists were starting every sentence
with the words,
“Meltdown, Crisis, Recession, Depression, Suicide,”
as the candidate could be heard saying over his morning
oatmeal and then later in front of thousands of real live Americans,
and every TV network with cameras rolling,
babbling on about how, “The fundamentals
of our economy are strong.”

The groans of Herbert Hoover’s ghost could be
heard throughout America.

September 16 (Tuesday)

If that wasn’t bad enough one of your surrogates
tried to claim that you had invented a piece of
technology so complex that the aging
candidate wouldn’t be able to operate it,
even if he practiced every day for the rest of his life,
until 20 years after his own death.

Then another campaign aide said neither you
or your hastily selected number 2
were qualified to even run a small business.

This CEO’s own record of “success” was one of layoffs,
shipping jobs thousands of miles away,
keeping secrets from its stock holders.

What was her reward for such a colossal failure of
leadership?

Prison? Censure?

She was given a $21 million dollar
Golden Parachute,
by a company she ran
right into the ground
and leaving thousands of Americans
and their families to starve
like dogs.

Then you insult 25 million Americans of
Hispanic descent when you mistakenly
call one of America’s financial
institutions S-P-I-C!

September 17 (Wednesday)

The hits just keep on coming.

In front of all those microphones and cameras,
the candidate tells a disgusting story
about how all those fishes
in the entire ocean just ‘loves’ to play
and frolic around all our oil rigs.

Giggling to himself while trying to get others
to giggle along with him,

“You should see them just swimming around
all those rigs. It’s just the darndest thing
you ever saw.”

Never mind that they (the fishes) have started
growing a third eye and fingers complete
with fingernails.

September 18 (Thursday)

The economic future of America seems to
be swirling down a giant toilet,
and the best idea he comes up with
is to call on some kind of commission
to look into the “problem.”

People are starving and this guy
can’t make up his mind what
restaurant serves the best steak
in town and wear his $600
calf-skin shoes.

Then your number 2, thinks who she’s number 1,
and (in front of those pesky cameras again)
puts her name first and your name dead last
during a speech, with you standing
three feet away from her.

September 19 (Friday)

More cameras, more foolish mistakes.

You call for the firing of several top bureaucrats,
none of which belong to the organization
that you have a problem with.

And what’s worse is that all we have left to
talk about all weekend is how badly
you have screwed things up this week.

So smile, McCain campaign.
Things could be so much worse for you.

Just think, it could be raining.

a $5,000 dollar make-up job, and they still couldn't figure out how to give his face more saturation than his teeth?

Maz2331 @ 48:

My impression is that both candidates came across as a little weak and "off-game" - but that can be explained by the fact that both of these guys were in Washington earlier trying to work on the pending Wall Street fiasco. We should all give them a small pass based on that because few of us would be on our best game after flying to DC, spending endless hours in meetings, and then flying to Mississippi for a debate.

That said, I think the debate itself was a very nearly perfect draw. Both candidates gave specifics, neither made a gaffe. Both articulated a similar position on most issues, with maybe a slight shift left for Obama and a slight shift right for McCain.

Obama scores a few points for style. The guy is good at speaking sincerely.

McCain scores a few points for understanding the complexity of international affairs. He does know the subtleties of how this stuff works.

Verdict: A tie.

one word: SPAIN!

Oh, and one more thing. The entire Obama campaign has to begin to: STOP USING McCAIN's NAME! Stop advertising the slob. Use "my Republican opponent", "the Republican candidate" or just "that other guy". Every time his name or his running mate's is used that's advertising FOR THEM. Cut it out! NEVER mention the other company's product! Gee, that's like Advertising 101!

tonight and in the past few weeks, mccain has shown himself to be nothing more than a cheap, lazy, run of the mill politician... these tricks, ducking in and out of the debate to make himself seem important, the snide "what senator obama fails to understand..." pretense of superior knowledge and understanding, the cheap grandstanding while the economy hangs in the balance, the cheap, sickeningly insulting, base, dishonest ads, the choice of what amounts to a skirt instead of a suit for a v.p., all of