Today is the Anniversary of the Kent State (OH) Massacre
By bluegal Monday May 04, 2009 1:00pm
Well, if this doesn't paint Blue Gal as an aging hippie, nothing will.
Today is the 39th anniversary of the anti-war protests at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio. For those of you under 40, May4.org has the history recap here.
Although I was in the first grade on May 4, 1970, I can't forget what happened in Kent, Ohio on that day.
I was there.
Not on campus, I was in first grade. In Kent, Ohio. My father and my mother's father were both faculty members at Kent. By 1970 my grandfather had retired from the Math Department. When he retired in 1968 he was the only math professor on record as opposing the War in Vietnam.
My dad, on the other hand, was in the Art Department. Nuff said.
We were rushed home from school that day in a panic of police sirens, smoke, and confusion.
When I got home, my mother had the front door locked for the first time in my life. "Mommy, what is happening?" "I don't know, dear." Mom not knowing, being visibly scared and shaken. Another first.
But she had the TV on and Walter Cronkite was talking about Kent. That was exciting to my six-year-old heart. I didn't see the consequences, had no idea what death was, let alone that four college students had been shot to death that day in my hometown. Their only crime was protesting their government's illegal, unilateral invasion of Cambodia.
I know, it's hard to believe a Republican president invaded a far away country based on lies and innuendo. (/snark)
The sad irony of Kent State, and what made it so explosive in terms of the "silent majority" of Americans, was that those Americans who could afford it avoided the military draft and the dangers of Vietnam by enrolling their children full-time in college and graduate school. All four students killed on May 4 were full-time students. If the war was going to kill sons (and daughters!) in OHIO? Many who were not outspoken before May 4, now said it was time to stop the war once and for all.
At my own house, a mile or so from campus, my two younger sisters, both pre-schoolers, were in their pajamas in the middle of the afternoon because my mother thought there might be an evacuation and getting the girls in their pajamas was something she "could do." They were playing making a tent with a blanket and the dining room chairs.
They do not remember that day, because it was just another day to play and make a tent.
I remember a few days later Kent was really, truly, on that proverbial "cover of Newsweek." I said to my dad:
"Daddy, before no one ever heard of Kent. Now no one will ever forget."
The University now holds an annual two-day symposium on democracy to commemorate the events of May 4.
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forgotten Jackson State speaks volumes.
had a higher body count, too.
not to split hairs, but two students died at Jackson State. I also wasn't there and have no recollection of that event. This is a mini-memoir, and is not meant to diminish the tragedy of any other shooting.
Accounts I've read often link Kent and Jackson State tragedies. I'd like to know how we judge that someone has forgotten a historical event. Lots of Republicans including paid journalists have completely forgotten Iran-Contra when talking about Reagan, for example.
I thought there were more wounded at Jackson State.
one permanently paralyzed.
J-State: 2 killed, 12 injured/wounded...
and perhaps others that your commemoration of the Kent State tragedy served to diminish Jackson State. I just wanted to point out how much more was and still is made of the events in Ohio than those in Missssippi. I spent my nights after Kent State on the main mall of my university preparing for what became our largest antiwar march. I missed a downtown teargassing which broke up a spontaneuous "illegal" march whihc started on news of the Ohio shooting.
It's not a good feeling to realize that when I was a teen in the '90s, not only did we get minimal coverage of Kent State in our history classes, but we were never told about Jackson State. It doesn't say much goodness about how we are taught our history; how selective it is.
In this case, the Military Corporate Complex.
although at that second my brain couldn't wrap itself around who was the victor. Sad stuff, disgusting stuff too...
If a textbook won't pass muster with the Texas Dept of Education AND the California Dept of Education, NO publisher will bother with it.
No wonder our high school "history" books (let alone Math, English, Biology ..) are so egregiously watered down.
They're trying to balance themselves between a red state and a mostly blue state, no wonder they have to make the content lukewarm!
The May 1970 Tragedy at Jackson State University
Thanks you guys. I'm 42 and have never heard that story.
I'm 27 and am embarrassed to admit that this is the first time I am learning about Jackson State too.
...I'm glad others have made a point of bringing up Jackson State. My jaw dropped when I saw that people hadn't even heard of that shooting.
One thing we should realize is that a reason Kent State got so much more attention was not only that it happened first (10 days before Jackson State) but that it was more shocking: These were white kids being shot! No matter how outrageous and enraging most folks may have felt the Jackson State killings to be, seeing black kids in the south getting shot up by state cops - well, it just wasn't that shocking. People may have been outraged - but they weren't surprised.
but the anniversary is 10 days later, May 14-15.
That was quite a time. There was a lot going on. The National uard was dispatched to my school on the 8th of May, and proceeded to bayonet 12 students in the process of emptying the Student Union Building, on orders from the Chief of the State Police...
>>The fact that whites remember Kent State but have totally forgotten Jackson State speaks volumes.<<
White kids were valued; black kids weren't - and its important to keep in mind that black folks had no where near the cultural prominence then that they do now. They were mainly seen on TV as trouble-makers and rioters or else somebody "nice" like Sammy Davis Jr. Jackson State was also not given the amount of coverage that Kent State was, either - for that same reason. Oh, and also .... there were only about 3 TV channels back then, too: ABC, NBC and CBS, not counting "educational" TV - which was for nerds.
I used to work for a guy whose dad was also a prof at Kent State when this happened. He told me stories about how frightened he was that day.
It's been that long huh? I was demonstrating against the MIC back then.
Same bs wars sold on a really scary lie and the innocent die .
Same as it ever was . Gas guys were ripping us off back then too. Gas Riots.
If we Nuremburged Nixon and Kissinger way back then ,we would be in clover rather than the cheney/ bush gang of war profiters laughing their fat asses off at the stupid Americans. dick a life long insider is worth over $100,000,000. Not bad for a government gig.
James Michner did a good job of making a record with this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Kent-State-What-Happene...
It is well worth the money.
The Kent State Cover Up by Kelner and Munves. They were legal counsel for the injured and had access to documents and interviews. This is the best of all the Kent State books, better than Michner.
I was about 200 miles away in Michigan at a school of similar size. We had just taken over the ROTC building and were terrified. The president of the college was a good man and he spent days negotiating with everyone to have a peaceful ending; without him who knows what could have happened.
James Michener's book is full of inaccuracies. I was interviewed by his researcher (I was a 19-year-old freshman at KSU at the time), and as I recall not only did they misspell my name but also misquoted me. The story of Kent State wasn't captured very well at all by this book, just so you know.
I was watching it on TV when my babysitter, who lives next door, came over crying. She had relatives in Ohio and was originally going to Kent State. She opted for the Univ. of WA instead.
I was dumbfounded that US troops could fire on defenseless students. To this day, I will never put anything beyond the government's actions.
As we have seen numerous times since, our government is capable of any crime, any horror. All they need is a plausable excuse or a well written legal brief.
Bluegal- FWIW, my brother probably knows your dad as they were both in the Art department in 1970.
And I was driving by the campus on the 4th on my way to California. What a crazy time. There were protests at all the campuses I stopped at that week as I made my way west. Kent State became a
stain that could not be belached out of this nation, and still is felt.
listening to the Soviet English language broadcast on the SW radio toward the end of April/early May 1970 and finding out that the US had invaded Cambodia and Laos.
As I remember, this (the invasions)was the reason for a wave of demonstrations - including KSU and Jackson.
My friends and I considered attending the demonstration at Kent but instead opted for the one at Case Western Reserve.
I remember the Cleveland Mounted Police on their horses in line abreast formation on Euclid Ave. In a synchronized movement, the cops all removed and pocketed their badges. Then they drew their clubs and charged us, none of whom were armed in any way.
I remember being surprised at how loud those nightsticks were when they hit sombody's head.
Then the police withdrew and started firing tear gas on the bloodied but still peacefully dispersing crowd.
Then they charged again.
I was sixteen and had been recently expelled from high school for organizing antiwar protests.
"I know, it's hard to believe a Republican president invaded a far away country based on lies and innuendo."
I hope they impeached him and put his whole administration in jail.
Oh, wait...
They were murder, plain and simple.
The students who were shot were hundreds of feet from the guardsmen and were no threat whatsoever to the guardsmen.
Furthermore, the guardsmen should not have had live ammunition.
The killings were no accident.
The reason is treason.
Many of the killed and injured were just walking to class.
For what earthly reason would you not supply the National Guard with live ammunition? If the situation is at a point where you think the Guard will be needed, then you call out the Guard, equipment and all. The National Guard is a military organization - they carry guns, and guns have ammunition.
If you don't want ammunition, then it's really a bad idea to ask for people carrying guns.
This would be a good time to point out that maybe it's a truly bad idea to have a military organization acting as campus security.
I was 19 when it happened, and I remember looking at the Trenton, N.J. paper where it appeared that morning. A co-worker, member of the Silent Majority, said "Shoulda killed 'em all." My shock at that is my main memory.
That was the overall reaction in Ohio too. I was a 19-year-old student at Kent on May 4, 1970, out with the others on the commons that day. I continue to be stunned at the common attitude that the killings were the students' fault: "They shoulda shot more of 'em." Jesus.
My soon to be spouse and I were Juniors at MSU. The news came as a major shock to the campus. It started more student protests too. The MSU ROTC building was destroyed just a couple of days before the Kent State killings. There was an even more unsettling event for the older and pro-war people that started just over a week earlier too. Earth Day, and the participants were still in their tents on one of the commons.
At MS_C_ (Moorhead State College in Minnesota) they just shut the place down. "Whatever grade you were getting, that's your grade for the quarter. Disperse. Go home for the summer." Hard for kids to imagine today.
I'm sorry for those lost exercising their rights. Reminiscing is great, but we still have the same system as 39 years ago.
Should a new war start, nothing prevents another Kent State. What are we, as patriotic americans, standing against the combined forces of military, government, and economic forces going to do? cry in despair?
you could stop carrying the 'american' label and allow yourself to be the human that you really are by reminding someone every single day that all governments are murderers. If our ancestors would have done that there would be no one left that would want to call themselves a 'statesman' or 'government' employee. Therefore, no more 'government' murderering.
Very Krishnamurti.
I dig Krishnamurti.
Fyeieio: I contributed a small 'recuerdo' to the bouquet earlier.
I downloaded this song, and a bunch of Woodstock-era music, recently, because it always strikes a chord within me.
And ScandalMgr-- great post.
another event that should have immediately put an end to the 'U.S. government'. When are you guys going to stop supporting the murderer?
just end the 'U.S. government' - thanks for that helpful suggestion
photograph of the woman standing over one of the dead. :( RIP Kent State and Jackson State students...
and had been born and raised in a small town in Northern Ohio.
That day I was in Los Angeles watching the events as they unfolded.
Up until then I had been a good, patriotic U.S. citizen. All my history classes in high school taught me that the U.S. was always the good guy...without question. I believed we needed to be in Vietnam or we wouldn't have been there. There was no way our government would allow innocent civilians to be killed by our soldiers or for our soldiers to be placed in harms way for no really good reason.
I think most of us have had that "defining moment" where a sea change occured in our thinking. A grand leap in logic taking place.
That was it for me. The day I saw innocent college students being gunned down by our own Ohio National Guard troops who were supposed to be there to "protect and serve the people of Ohio."
That's the day I realized the war in Vietnam was a lie and that I had probably been lied to all through grade school and high school. Of course a few years later I read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" (plus many other books) and now here I am today, here at Crooks and Liars, instead of sitting in front of the telly absorbing the lies and right wing wacko propaganda of Hannity and Coulter.
I often wonder what kinda stuff you learn in your history classes. Most countries officially slant their history to be the good guys.
I took one year of Canadian history in university (required-- my programme), but not much happened. One of the highlights of Canadian history is the discusion about representation by population. Not really a page turner.
LOL! Yeah my Canadian history class consisted of beaver fur traders, Upper and Lower Canada, the BNA, and Captain Palliser.
Riveting stuff, I tells ya!
The Kent State Massacre was a Sea Change for the entire nation.
Up until then it was just us Dirty Hippies at Berkeley (and other notoriously left-leaning campuses) who had been demonstrating. But Kent State was the American Heartland. Good White American Kids. It rocked the nation, because the nation became aware that the division over the Vietnam War was going to tear the nation apart.
"We" were killing "our own."
Those killed at Kent State did not die in vain. Their deaths lead inexorably to the end of the Vietnam War.
With tears in my eyes I write this.
I was two years out of college when Kent State and Jackson State happened, but my then-husband was working on a college campus. I'll never forget visiting my parents (rock-ribbed yankee Republicans)(whom I loved despite that) a few weeks later and hearing my father say that the victims deserved their fates because they shouldn't have been demonstrating. (Of course, at least one of the two killed at JS was a passerby.) I protested that I was often on campus, as was my husband, and he informed me that if we were on campus during a demonstration, we deserved to be shot. I've never quite gotten over that, and it put a dent in my hero-worship of my otherwise sane and gentle father.
that one of the students killed at KSU, Allison Krause, was heading to her next class when her life was ended by "the troops."
but it was the other gal killed and a guy, both of whom were over 100 yards away and just walking to class. The guy IIRC had been involved in ROTC in HS. Krause and the student Mary Ann Vecchio is kneeling over were involved in the demonstration. But it really doesn't matter if all of them were at it, or none of them were. No one should have been shot dead, at either university, on either day.
It was the end result of fear mongering and hateful actions on the part of this country, and hate speech on the part of the right (Love it or leave it) against those of us protesting the hateful actions. Same shit that is going on today, and has been, pretty much ever since, in varying degrees.
Ronald Reagan rose to national prominence by attacking the students at Berkeley. His goons started the riots.
I watched.
A perfectly peaceful crowd would be hanging out on Sproul Plaza. Violins playing, frisbees flying, students reading, eating lunch.
Way off in the corner a group of perhaps a dozen (possibly police stooges) would be carrying signs and chanting slogans. No one noticed, or cared, until the police arrived and ordered them to disperse. They didn't. Heads cracked. Crowd gathers. Rocks thrown. Tear gas lobbed. Running battles all over the campus. Next day - cops all over campus. And of course another day of rocks and tear gas and heads cracking.
And on the National News - Saint Ronnie is suppressing the Unwashed Berkeley Leftist Hippie Hordes who want to Ruin The Nation.
.
Actually it was Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder who were walking from class when they were killed. Allison Krause and Jeff Miller, both of whom I knew, were killed while participating in the demonstration--Allison was at a great distance from the Guardsmen who turned and shot at the crowd but still sustained a mortal injury from one of their M-1 rifles.
The attitude that "they shoulda killed more of them" was one of the hardest things to deal with in the aftermath of the shootings. The killings certainly radicalized me, and at age 19 as a freshman at KSU, I was already an antiwar feminist.
Hard to believe it's been almost 40 years.
Ah Republicans. They never seem to give up an opportunity to prove just how compassionate they really are.
I mentioned on another forum that gov't is not benevolent. It was in the context of torture.
"No gov't is benevolent and a gov't that will torture should frighten it's citizens more so than the reason we torture do...."
Kent State makes the argument.
Kent state is still one of the very few things that brings tears to my eyes.
what
It seems almost inconceivable to me that in July of the previous year (1969) we had celebrated the first moon landing. Such a stark contrast to the violence of this incidence.
For me, the times were told in the photos of the day. I was 10 years old, and I will never forget the photo of that girl kneeling over one of the dead student with her arms outstretched with a tortured look on her face. But in those days, they put the photos of the war on the TV. (It wasn't on page seven of the newspapers like the Iraq war has been assigned) Vietnam was on the front page, it was in my living room every night.
I didn't hear about Jackson State until today, but I seem to remember, more and more protests against the war shortly after this incident.
I too was 10 years old and lived about 20 minutes from Kent State. I had cousins who attended Kent at the time and as I started walking home from school I heard teachers talking about students being shot at Kent State. I was scared and ran home and my mom had the TV on and was crying. Then when the phone started ringing she thought it was because something had happened to one of her nephews, but fortunately that wasn't the case. Then rumors started that there were going to be more riots - even in my hometown which has a liberal arts college. There were some protests but nothing like at Kent. My childhood is speckled with memories of historical events such as the Kennedy's and MLK being assassinated, the moon landing, Viet Nam on the news every night, coverage of Woodstock and Kent State. What a time to grow up!
Spring 1970 was my last quarter at Berkeley.
What you see in this video happened EVERY DAY on campus. This is no exaggeration. Some days EVERY parking spot in the parking decks was a police car. They rode through town four in a car with shotguns resting on the door frame through the open windows. I was in the Library when they gassed it. I was in the Student Union when an ARMY OFFICER ordered us to leave - anyone remaining would be considered hostile; then they cordoned off the plaza with un-named cops wearing gas masks and carrying heavy batons, then brought in an ARMY helicopter and GASSED the Plaza (not tear gas) and severely beat anyone caught in the middle - all of whom hadn't heard the warning, they'd just wandered into the wrong place at the wrong time.
Anyway - thanks to the person who caught this footage.
1970 Berkeley Riots - My First Quarter at Berkeley
I was a little girl in 1970, but I remember how my much older brother could not get to his engineering classes. He was never a war protester, and was more like one of those students "wandering into the wrong place at the wrong time." A few years ago he started listening to Dylan, and I told him it was about time.
The rioting at Berkeley was always on the teevee, as was Vietnam war coverage, the opposite of the current MSM.
If you were in first grade in 1970, I'm not exactly sure you can classify yourself as an aging hippie. Just because you like to smoke hippie lettuce and you're over 40, doesn't automatically qualify someone as a hippie.
Enjoy.
and I am a lot older then you I was 19 at the time.
I still cannot believe we have such criminals in our government, that will have people killed for having a different opinion them.
republicans haven't learned a thing since then except how to be more greedy and stupid.
Virtue, there's a fine line between disagreeing and personal attack flamebaiting. You're crossing it. - Sitemonitor
from a small college in PA. We were shocked when we heard about the killings....and scared. Very much afraid that there would be some kind of martial law or lock-downs on all campuses. Classmates had been active in anti-war marches in Philly and other places on the East Coast.
I remember that a day or two after 'four dead in Ohio' - we organized a candlelight march on our campus and marched out into the main road through the town and stopped traffic for a while. Only time I ever saw the majority of students at my college get together for anything. Can't believe I've been out of college for almost 40 years !!!?? - not much has changed...>>>
You were in first grade and you're an aging hippie?
I was out of college and expecting to have to refuse to be drafted. What does that make me? (What's older than "aging?" Aged?)
I think some of us who might refer to ourselves as aging hippies are more properly referred to as baby boomers. I was born in 1957. I have a younger sister who was just learning to talk when the hippie movement was really big. She learned of hippies before hippos. It was the 'grooviest' thing hearing her talk about the hippiepotamus she saw at the zoo.
Enjoy.
more properly referred to as baby boomers
Nah. True, chronologically I'd be considered a baby boomer. But baby boomer is an age thing. Hippie is an attitude thing. Anyway, I'm still prone to think of myself as an aging child. :-)
The fact that I wasn't old enough to be a "real" hippie doesn't mean much. Maybe I was a junior hippie? Hippie in training? LOL If I'd been just a few years older, I'd have been a GREAT hippie.
Funny thing, about this time, I was totally fascinated with one of my cousin's boyfriends. He was definitely a real hippie (which drove my uncle insane, but that's another story). Anyway, he always carried this really cool suede drawstring bag with fringe on the bottom, and I thought that bag was right up there with sliced bread and canned soup. I wasn't sure what it was that he kept in it, but I loved the way it smelled - I'd open up the drawstring just a little bit so I could stick my nose in it and take a deep breath. Had to be careful, though, because I'd get this stuff that looked like crushed leaves up my nose. Eventually he gave me the bag - empty, of course.
Yeah, a few years later when I had the opportunity to identify that particular leafy substance and realized what he'd carried around in that bag, all I could think was "No wonder he had so many friends!"
Wise
I was a third grader, so I doubt Blue Mark and bluegal were ever acquainted. But I do remember those days. School was still in session that Monday, at Wall we had the National Guardsmen bivouacked on our playground, so we had to have our recess in the hallways. Even we worldly 3rd graders were not fully recognizant of the extraordinary situation of the military occupying a functioning grade school, we just thought it was neat that there were soldiers at our school. We didn't learn until later that they would be killing students.
After the shootings schools were closed for the rest of the week. The town was placed under martial law (the history books claim otherwise - the history books are full of shit; the constitution was suspended in Kent Ohio, freedom of assembly was rescinded - people were prohibited from congregating in groups of 3 or more, a curfew was imposed, outrage and paranoia burned brightly).
There were all kinds of stories going around. That Abbie Hoffman and the communists had set everything up. That armed students were heading for the suburbs (turned out that someone saw a single townie going into the woods to shoot BBs at squirrels). Helicopters flew overhead.
The war felt like it came home that week.
"...nothing will."
Except refering to yourself in third person. Hippie!
"I know, it's hard to believe a Republican president invaded a far away country based on lies and innuendo. (/snark)"
Of course, you do know that the students killed at Kent State were protesting a war initiated by Democratic Presidents who invaded a far away country based on lies and innuendo, correct?
You know- Kennedy, Johnson, Gulf of Tonkin etc?
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/timelin...
Here's a hint - wasn't Kennedy or Johnson. It was the invasion of Cambodia that triggered the protests in Kent - as Bluegal stated: "protesting their government's illegal, unilateral invasion of Cambodia. "
Nice try though.
I guess I should have been a little clearer. What triggered the invasion of Cambodia? Vietnam.
We never would have been in Cambodia if we hadn't gone into Vietnam. Who got us there?
Do you think those students were protesting Cambodia, yet supportive of the war in Vietnam? Are you going to argue that Vietnam was not invaded due to "lies and innuendo"?
The Asian conflict that led to Vietnam started in Korea.....under Eisenhower. Pickup a book next time.
The Democratic President who built up the war was not encouraged to rerun for office.
Nixon promised to end the war, not extend it. That helped him get elected, and that's why citizens were so mad at the invasion of Cambodia.
I was just going to point out the same thing...our involvement in Southeast Asia was initiated by Democratic presidents. Neither party has a monopoly on tragically wrong-headed or outright criminal policies, and virtually every one of our post WWII presidents could probably be considered a war criminal. Obama has already got off to a bad start--not just in his attempts to maintain and even expand Bush policies and the war in Afghanistan but also in his killing of Pakistani civilians by means of our drone bombers. If Obama doesn't change course pretty much immediately, he'll be just as blood-drenched as Bush.
Read a book......Eisenhower!
Neither party has a monopoly on tragically wrong-headed or outright criminal policies
Absolutely true. But it is also true that the first "advisers" were sent to Vietnam (technically, French Indochina, which also included what became Laos and Cambodia) by Dwight Eisenhower. I knew a guy who got his orders a week after DDE said "not one American boy will set foot in Indochina" to help the French keep their colony.
On the other hand, it was under JFK that the "advisers" became more openly involved in direct combat operations and of course it was under LBJ that the big escalation took place.
But Nixon's secret expansion of the war into Cambodia was simply an extension of the already illegal and ghastly war in Viet Nam. The protests in Kent may have been "triggered" by the Cambodia expansion, but that's splitting hairs: anti-war protests had been ongoing for several years and would have continued in growth and frequency even had Cambodia not become an issue.
Nice try, though.
Bluegal's comment was precisely about "Nixon's secret expansion of the war into Cambodia."
But let's not split hairs and expand the context to all wars; the Civil war, the Spanish-American War, the Peloponnesian War, the Dance War: Bruno vs. Carrie Ann ...
I doubt Blue Gal intended to absolve the Dems of their complicity for our military involvement in Southeast Asia, but her desire to be snarky in drawing a comparison between Nixon and Bush--"geez, who'da thunk a Republican would get us into a war based on lies and innuendo?"--serves to do just that: it muddies the historical waters. Just as Nixon was but continuing and expanding a war initiated by his Democratic predecessors, Obama is now continuing (and will expand, it appears) a war initiated by his Republican predecessor. Such poetic symmetry.
Let's not be so smug about the Republicans: they're all war criminals, Republicans and Democrats alike, both then and now.
"Let's not be so smug about the Republicans: they're all war criminals, Republicans and Democrats alike, both then and now."
OK, I'll play (but this is a detour, not at all what Bluegal was snarking about).
Vietnam, the Tonkin Gulf et al, was one of the greatest crimes of 20th century, a stain on the American soul. But it cannot even approach the depravity of Bush's war against Iraq in retribution for a terrorist act it had nothing whatsoever to do with. The incremental escalation of the Vietnam conflict is not defensible, but it was a war we took a side in, not one we created out of whole cloth for reasons we couldn't publicly admit.
So while there were certainly criminals on both sides, both then and now, don't argue that they are the same. That just leads us to moral blindness. Every outrage of the Bush administration was "countered" by a minor or imagined "equal" infraction of the Clinton administration. "Bush ordered the wholesale eavesdropping on American citizens without warrant or probable cause, and authorized an official program of torture in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions", yeah but ... "Clinton LIED ABOUT A BLOW JOB!"
There are good people and bad people in both parties and on all sides. But it isn't a balance, there isn't an equivalence. The last 8 years proved that beyond any reasonable doubt.
this is a detour
That is true. It is a detour; however, it's not a pointless one.
it cannot even approach the depravity of Bush's war against Iraq
That is untrue. I've lived through both, protested both, and I tell you that damn straight Vietnam could "approach the depravity" of Iraq. From the 1954 Geneva Accords we sought to undermine, through the 1956 elections we did undermine, through the manufactured "incident" in the Gulf of Tonkin, though the string of tinhorn dictators and their massive political repression who we supported then threw aside when they were no longer useful, to the several million dead (including more than 50,000 Americans, more than 10 times the number killed in Iraq), the millions more wounded, the still millions more refugeed, to "the light at the end of the tunnel," to "secret plans," to the Phoenix Program, to carpet bombing, to genocide in Laos including the decimation of the Plain of Jars, I'll match Vietnam to Iraq depravity for depravity.
And a war fought for "reasons we couldn't publicly admit?" The Pentagon Papers laid those out for us: The entire war, the entire 20-year war, all the destruction, all the suffering, all the death, was so the US wouldn't be "embarrassed."
You want to talk illegal wiretapping? I'll give you wiretapping (which wasn't even illegal then), infiltration, and agents provocateur. You want to talk suppression of dissent? I'll give you Kent State and May Day and Cointelpro and "red squads" and protesters beat up while police stood by and "police riots" in Chicago and elsewhere. You want to talk Abu Ghraib and torture? I'll give you the tiger cages of Con Son Island and torture of political prisoners in South Vietnam so common as to be "routine" in a police system almost entirely paid for by the US - and then give you My Lai, truly notable only because people heard about it.
Yes, it's silly and inaccurate to try to equate Bush's crimes with Clinton "lying about a blow job." But that's not the comparison being made here, not by a few decades, and it's equally silly and equally inaccurate to deny the (im)moral equivalence of Vietnam and Iraq.
As I mentioned above- we were in Cambodia because of some bad decisions to get into Vietnam. It's that simple. We were not there due to the Civil War or any of the other nonsensical examples you offered. But I can see how, if you think there's no cause and effect between the two, that you might not understand all of the presidents involved in the matter.
Can your say Eisenhower? Ibet you can.
When someone was going to mention him.
Kennedy wanted to withdraw. It cost him his life.
That scared the shit out of Johnson. So he escalated Nam. Think MIC.
The very thing that Eisenhower warned the country about in his final address to the nation.
Nixon started bombing Laos and Cambodia. Countries that weren't involved.
They can say what they want. Thems the facts
Let me forget my history and put on my tinfoil hat. Maybe it will look a little more plausible that way. Do you really think that the Democrats were such angels and if it weren't for the perfidious Republicans, Vietnam wouldn't have happened? Nixon was a war criminal, I'll agree, but Johnson escalated Vietnam because he was afraid of assassination? Wow, just wow.
If you were in Johnson's shoes?
Then came MLK's and RFK's murders.
You can choose to think this is bs.I'll admit it can't be proven. But it does raise a possibility.
Hoover, and shortly after McCarthy.
It is a possibility. Johnson knew the truth behind JFK's assassination. He had too. I certainly don't buy the magic bullet theory. Or the Warren commissions findings.
I didn't mean to sound so dismissive, but I think you've drunk the Democratic Kool-Aid by the gallon. I don't see any definitive proof that Kennedy planned to withdraw from Vietnam, and If Johnson escalated because he was afraid of being assassinated, well, he sure played the part of warmonger to the hilt.
Kennedy Wanted to withdraw for Viet Nam?
Why do you think he was murdered?
The mob? The Cubans?
Tell me, why do you think JFK was assassinated?
Oh, I don't like koolaide. In any flavor.
Yeah, Johnson turned into what you call a warmonger. Then he decided that he wouldn't run for re-election. He would not accept the parties nomination to run again.
I'm really curious, Why do you think JFK got murdered?
My reply's below. I thought I was reply to your post.
Cheers.
Where was Bluegal arguing cause and effect? She was making snark about Republican presidents.
I made ridiculous examples to highlight that the context of her comments were being repudiated by changing the subject, hence - nice try.
And yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on both the presidents and the precedents involved.
When I started college in 1974 in Champaign, IL we still had 4 Dead in Ohio painted on the sidewalks of our Quad.
Years later in the 90's, I was reminiscing with some of the current members of our fraternity house on what it was like in the 70's and I mentioned the 4 Dead in Ohio painted on the sidewalk.
They had no idea what I was talking about.
I was 13. Right then and there was one of those moments in peoples lives that you know you will never forget. I think I was in 8th grade.
I remember my home room teacher, Mrs Hubbard, storming all around the school with this look on her face of utter rage. Then I went home and found out. I lost alot of faith in my govt' that day. And after JFK, MLK, and RFK. This was another life altering event. Not to mention the war.
If you're going to split hairs and implicate Ike, you should really start with Truman. That's where our involvement really started, though it was mainly material support to the French. However, to let Johnson off the hook because he's a Democrat is just laughably dishonest.
He is responsible for the escalation. There is no denying that.
It's a historical fact.
But Ike was the 1st one to put military advisers in Nam.
When JFK took office, there wasn't more that 2500 military advisers in Nam. I could be wrong about that. It might be around 3500.
He saw that this was going to be a huge problem. So after adding more military advisers. Up to around 5000. He decided that the only right thing to do was to get out. He said it. It's on record.
Johnson :" I'll Give you your war"
Is responsible for the massive escalation. I can't remember the actual number. But for some reason 250,000 comes to mind. Of course this is over an extended period of time. Over 4 years .
I would like you to think about all the money made during WW2.
All the tanks ,ships and weapons of all kinds.
Just run that through your head for a little while.
An opportunity arises to do it again, and the Prez says No?
I would also like you to check out Ike in his farewell speech to the nation.
I'd do it, but company just walked in the door and they're ready to party
I'll check back later and get all the info for you. All I'm asking is for you to think about it.
I'm no conspiracy nut. I do find it strange that there has never been any actual facts regarding the JFK killing. money. It's all about money. That and outright hatred.
I know you have some kind of cute remark to add.
I'd dig up the info, but I'm hammered . Cinco De Mayo and all that.
Maybe next year?
I was a Senior at Valporaiso University in Indiana. The tv news was shocking... but we immediately began to meet Kent State students who were driving and hitch-hiking home after leaving their campus. We brought our own student groups together who had been protesting the Vietnam war... and we listened to their personal, first-person accounts of what had gone on at Kent. Within a week our candle-liht vigils on campus grew from tens of students to HUNDREDS... and we moved our protests to our own admin building. Our campus activity brought all classes TO A COMPLETE HALT. We came to an agreement with the University President that any student could finish his or her semester classswork by becoming engaged in an independant study as long at it had something to do with the campus violence or the Viet Nam War. (This agreement actually salvaged my own BA Degree.) One month later I was faced with an even more far-reaching dilemma... to enlist in the US Army, escape to Canada, or go to Federal Prison for avoiding the Draft. I enlisted.
BG I had no idea you grew up in NE-O. I was not yet talking when Kent State happened. I am from up a bit to the north-west of there, close to the city.
Cheers for the post, and I also had not heard of Jackson State.
In Spring of 1970 I was in the Air Force, stationed in Thailand, helping to launch the B-52 bombers that were, according to Richard Nixon, not bombing Cambodia. With all the ordinance dropped on that pitiful spot, the Cambodians could probably open an iron mine.
..as more than a few cars were broken into. On the second day of protests, 39 years ago today, we learned of the Kent State shootings. We gathered and shouted and yelled and marched. We tried to close down a mall with another nearby university. We walked out of classes and tests and left many classes that semester incomplete. More than one friend left for Canada.
At a rally, I called for the use of Student funds to be used or donated to the defense fund of the Kent State 17 (I think, it was 39 years ago). I was BOOED off the stage. People felt that we needed the funds to support our own defense fund. I didn't win the argument. The next semester, when we returned to class, we had the Student Council President of Kent State speak at a rally. He called for donations to the defense fund of the Kent State 17 and he was given a standing ovation. Same crowd, mind you. I walked away, went surfing and could've cared less about it all. I was sad for the families of the dead in Kent State, the families of the deceased warriors in Viet Nam and still angry at the corrupt leaders in DC who also seemed to not be in it to win it. But it was all about a popularity contest in my mind. Then that bastard Nixon froze salaries and wage rates.
Heaven help us if we ever have to live through times like that again.
Oh wait..I forgot, W and co.
I'm only a couple of years younger than you and don't remember Kent State (or Jackson State, for that matter). I was initially informed about what happened there by the song, Ohio, by CSN&Y when I was in Jr. High during the mid 80s.
That lead me to a library where I learned a lot about Vietnam and May 4th.
The thing that gets me is, where are the protest songs now?
It seems to me that so much of what we consider protest today is snark.
John Cusak's, War Inc. was a good movie, but it was snarky.
"What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?"
That's not snark. To me, that was/is a line in the sand. It's asking Americans, how can you ignore the fact that American Soldiers gunned down Americans, even after it was all over the evening news? How can you run, when you know?
That's a protest song.
Our music industry is really lacking, in my opinion.
I was fourteen, living in Athens OH, home of Ohio University when we got news of the shootings at Kent State.
The Kent State shootings convulsed the campus, leading to a 14-day occupation by the Ohio Nat Guard. The iconic photo of a Guardsman standing guard on Court Street under the Athena Theatre marquee, which was showing "Z" the night the riots erupted.
The leadup to the shootings had been preceded by monumental demonstrations against Nixon's Cambodia Invasion, which widened the war.
The events at Kent State were posted teletypes on the window of Koon's Records, a local record store owned by a guy who liked his news fresh, hence the teletype. As each update came in the mood got worse. The two-day teach-ins that had accompanied the invasion were overtaken by the news of the shootings.
That night the rioting started. Pitched battles between "heads", opportunists, "Greeks" and then the local police began in earnest. By the end of the night i'd witnessed people getting their heads knocked in, random looting, small-town police cars racing thru the streets firing shotgunned teargas canisters as bricks rained down on them.
When I got home at 1:30 in the morning, I breathlessly told my dad that "the fucking pigs are tear-gassing everybody".
He looked at me and started shouting: "You little shit! I've been calling the morgue, hospitals and jails to find out if they'd gotten any minors! Now shut the fuck up and go to bed. NOW!"
The Young Revolutionary, smacked down.
The next day, everything was closed. We drove out of town to Cinncinnati, and watched convoys of National Guards rolling into Athens. The town was under curfew for 14 days afterwards. The NG bivouacked at the football stadium. Periodically a Huey gunship would circle over the town.
Athens was remote, and the story has been pretty well forgotten. Nobody got killed, and certainly no white people died. When the shootings at Jackson State happened, it made sense that nobody particularly cared. After all, Mark Hampton of the Panthers had been shot dead in his bed. The draft had been hoovering up poor blacks, whites, and other left-behinds of the great Society. Future luminaries like John Ashcroft, Rush Limbaugh and Dick Cheney all took exceptional advantage of deferments at this time.
Col David Hackworth's book "About Face" described the invasion as strategically correct, but a colossal mistake, being at least five years too late. From the standpoint of a guerilla war, he is correct. He also understood clearly that by 1969, the notion of a "winnable" war was a grotesque lie and air-conditioned fantasy.
I've always been a fan of the disgruntled Cuban/Mob connection myself. I've read conflicting accounts of Kennedy's likely policy toward Vietnam. In "The Best and Brightest" Halberstam makes JFK sound indecisive and worried about proving his anti-Communist bona fides. However, I've read some synopses of other histories that make it sound like Kennedy was in the process of ordering a recall of the advisers we had there. Who are you saying murdered him, and was it over Vietnam only, or were there other reasons? I'd love to read what you're basing your view on (and I'm not being snarky, it's a fascinating period of history about which we may never know the whole truth). Regardless, I don't buy that Johnson's vigorous and aggressive prosecution of the war is a result of fear of assassination. That's an assertion for which I would need to see substantial evidence. Oh, and I want to apologize for the Kool-Aid remark. It's just that I get sick of the simplistic Republicans always bad/Democrats always virtuous stuff I sometimes see even on my favorite blog.I'm sure you don't believe that, I inferred it. I also inferred that in bluegal's remark about "Republican president" invading a country, as if Democratic hands are free of blood.
for a great post, and the comments are fascinating too.
Recently, I read about rioting at Kent State, but no one was protesting a war or anything--just their right to party on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPLzfYWt_KA&fe...
Yeah, the times have sure changed, (except for cops=fascists.)
A very sad day for the country. Both sides share plenty of blame however the heaviest burden goes to the government because they ARE the government. There were non-lethal riot control assets available even back then. The commander on the ground did worse than cause an international incident......he caused a National incident that changed history. Indirectly it may have helped lead to the ultimate election of America haters like the president.
It resulted in ordinary non-involved citizens becoming very active in protest because they saw their government "killing college kids"......not a bad thing; Just a horrific way to get there. A high powered battle rifle never looks good when employed against thrown stones. It was a PR nightmare and likely lead to many of the reported incidents of innocent, returning combat vets being spat on and called vile names on their return to the US. I was wearing an Army lieutenant's uniform back then on my way to Viet Nam (a mere boy soldier) and the change when meeting the citizens I was defending was palpable even without name calling and spitting. I was sad for my soldiers and my country. That whole time sucked bad.
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