Israel In Gaza, Shooting Itself In The Foot
By Steve Hynd Friday Jan 09, 2009 5:30pmFootage from Gaza, translation by the UK's Guardian newspaper.
I wrote about Israel's lack of strategic mission in Gaza, and its ignoring of all the wise heads on 4th generation warfare, the other day. Now Scott Lemiex expands upon that by way of Charles Krauthammer as spokesman for the entire "kill everyone, let God sort them out" mindset of the extreme right.
America's Worst Columnist says that "there are only two possible endgames: (A) a Lebanon-like cessation of hostilities to be supervised by international observers, or (B) the disintegration of Hamas rule in Gaza." It will not surprise you that he advocates for (B). Alas, it will also not surprise you to know that he doesn't seem to consider the question of what exactly Hamas would be replaced by should these aims be achieved. The assumption that a lengthy, destructive Israeli bombing campaign will produce a government more sympathetic to Israel and less sympathetic to Iran is so transparently idiotic that I think we can assume it's the one that Krauthammer is working with.
The most likely answer to "what would Hamas be replaced with", given Israel's actions, is something even nastier and more extremist. Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea to make covert overtures towards Hamas in an attempt to push it towards more moderate polices. That's always at least remotely possible (reference Northern Ireland and the conversion of the Irgun terror group into statesmen who could win Nobel Peace Prizes) whereas the end of Palestinian terrorism by meeting it with equal atrocities simply isn't.
It's highly unlikely that Palestinians will be in any mood to forget the shelling of refugees in a UN school - something the Israeli Defense Force originally alleged was in response to militant activity "near to" the building (no-one said how near) and which had been met, confusingly by the IDF's own statements, by either return mortar fire or bombs or artillery shells depending upon which statement the pro-Israel lobby were taking as gospel at any time. Now, however, the UN says that senior IDF officials have admitted a mistake.
UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness told Haaretz yesterday that the army had conceded wrongdoing.
In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school," Gunness said. "The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional."
He noted that all the footage released by the IDF of militants firing from inside the school was from 2007 and not from the incident itself. "There are no up-to-date photos," Gunness said. "In 2007, we abandoned the site and only then did the militants take it over."
The UNRWA is now demanding an objective investigation into whether the school shelling constituted a violation of international humanitarian law, and if so, that those responsible stand trial.
That's rather reminiscent of US military's "deny then apologise" course on airstrikes on civilians in Afghanistan and reminds me that Israel is also using the Bush administration's favorite set of justifications for the use of indiscriminate incendiary devices over urban populations too. And yes - Hamas is both an elected majority and a group with a terrorist wing and terrorist ideology. But that doesn't excuse "a hundred eyes for an eye". It doesn't excuse shutting out appointed UN envoys. It doesn't excuse this kind of mistake (if its a mistake):
At least 30 people were killed in the Zeitoun district of Gaza after Israeli troops repeatedly shelled a house to which more than 100 Palestinians had been evacuated by the Israeli military, the UN said today.
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), said in a report it was "one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations" against Hamas militants in Gaza by the Israeli military on 27 December.
OCHA said the incident took place on 4 January, a day after Israel began its ground offensive in Gaza. According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated about 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun, south-east Gaza. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house. About half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said. The report also complains that the Israeli Defence Force prevented medical teams from entering the area to evacuate the wounded.
The OCHA report does not accuse Israel of a deliberate act but calls for an investigation. Responding to the report, an Israeli military spokeswoman, Avital Leibovich, told AFP news agency: "From initial checking, we don't have knowledge of this incident. We started an inquiry but we still don't know about it."
It seems obvious that this war in a fishbowl, where civilians have nowhere to run to by Israeli design and so Israel can continue to allege that Hamas is using them as "human shields" instead of coming out into the field to fight fair and receive a proper ass-kicking, is entirely counterproductive to Israel's longterm aims if those aims are indeed to see an end to Palestinian extremism and terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. Gideon Lichfield wries for the International Herald Tribune (h/t War in Context):
What Israel should do now is work for a cease-fire on terms that allow both sides to save some face. It should then do something it has done far too little of in the past: improve Gazans’ living conditions significantly. The aim should be to construct a long-lived state of calm in which Hamas has more to lose by breaching the cease-fire than by sticking to it.
In the longer term Israel will have to accept that Hamas is no fringe movement that can be rooted out and destroyed, but a central part of Palestinian society. This will be the hard part, not least because of the opposition from Hamas’ secularist Palestinian rivals, Fatah.
But even though Hamas’s stated goal is Israel’s destruction, it has said many times that it would accept a truce extending decades. Some former Israeli security chiefs argue that such an accommodation - a peace treaty in all but name - would eventually oblige Hamas to accept Israel’s existence, or else lose its own base of support. It is a gamble, certainly. But the alternative is more innocent lives lost, more extremism and ultimately more trouble for Israel.
Crossposted from Newshoggers
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Where's Joe the Plumber? We need him now before this gets any worse!
I think he's in the bathroom.
is only going to fuck up more by talking only to the Israelis. Seems to me that viewpoint has been overdone.
Go and talk to the Palestinians, Joe. Coward.
Where all the approved journalists are.
Theres a slideshow of photos on the WSJ website, picture three is most telling about how the MSM twist the reporting.
One photo reporter took a photo of a TV crew and their anchor doing their stuff, the crew are wearing normal clothes and standing there nonchalant as if its anywhere, the anchor is wearing full WW3 body armour and pretending to be nervous and under fire for the camera.
It could be a scene lifted from 'Drop the Dead Donkey', its that fake.
and I've said before, it is the zionists, not the Israelis. I'm not antisemetic.
are. A commenter on another site opened my eyes to the reality that the Zionist agenda is much different than god fearing Jews desire for continuing their peaceful coexistence with their Arab and Palestinian neighbors.
The rush plan by the US/Israel/Abbas of the Fatah Party will only result in Israel seen as a terrorist country and now they have broken the 1948 settlement by the UN when Jewish people were allowed to settle on Palestine land afther the Holocaust. It could have all been different had greed not been involved. Now Israel has given reason for Iran and North Korea to develope Nukes to protect their citizens from an illegal invasion like Israel is doing to Palestine and has done to Lebanon and Syria. The United Nations will have to bring War Crimes charges against the United States and Israel for this to stop. Bush had 1 million Iraqis killed and Israel has killed over 700 Palestine people. Now as Palestine had killed a total of 14 while some just died on their own but were added to the list since it pushes up the lost of life for Israel. Israel showed two injured soldiers who could have well have just gone home but had a photo op for the Media. We saw the massacre of the UN Childrens School with 40 bodies of dead children no photo op needed. But Israel claims their suffering from this.
are you trying to say that now the world has to fear israel attacking everywhere?
when was the last time you heard anyone from the idf talk about north korea
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
begin sat down with egypt and made a lasting peace
israel, through ehud barak, sat down at camp david with arafat, and offered basically everything the palestinians wanted
arafat walked away
he started the first intifada almost immediatly afterwards
would you like me to post quotes from arafat and hamas about the destruction of the jews?
their quotes are far more colorful
[Hey! Didn't we make an agreement yesterday, tubesox? I wasn't kidding. Take the night off of the Israel threads and come back tomorrow. Site Monitor]
[SM addendum: tubesox, do the both of us a favor and contact me at sitemonitor1@gmail.com . Thanks. Site Monitor]
ISRAEL does not want to share JERUSALEM as UN Mandates. Plain and simple!
That's told by MOST ZIONIST LEADERS
ZIONISM SUCKS!
"would you like me to post quotes from arafat and hamas about the destruction of the jews?"
Post away....
Palestine was in existence and being terrorized by Israel many years before Arafat was the face of the Palestinian people. Don't be short sited. Go back a few more years when they're land was being stolen by force, intimidation and terrorism from the the radical Jews who used ideology to claim land (settlements as they liked to call it). They keep taking more and more land in the name of a god that none of us have seen.
I believe in Shemp who tells me your home is part of my land and I will force you out and ask my government to back me. Now leave before we have to start a war over it. Give me your address, I'm moving in.
Yep, gump, well said... exactly.
I could quote many Americans--politicians, even, such as George W. Bush or Dick Cheney or Richard Nixon--and hold all of America accountable for things they said. That is the same as what is being done here. People loathe Israel so much that critical thinking has gone out the window, it would seem.
Also, there have always been Jews in Israel/Palestine and they too have perpetually been terrorized. Do you really think proving 'Who started it?' will end the conflict? Have you ever interacted with children?
You know what. I don't agree with tubesox (and I still think its Uncle Joe) on this issue, but why has the site monitor decided to single this poster out for censorship? Because most of the posters don't agree with him? I know that with this issue, the same old arguments go 'round and 'round, but I don't agree with censoring. Other than tubesox is in the minority here, what other reason is given that s/he can't post? Abuse? Can there be some clarification?
Just for the record, Israel didn't want Egypt's lands, just the Palestinians' lands.
Israel pretents to be a civilized country and the only democracy in MO. It has full back-up from US whatever they do. They are even helped by US in whatever war they want to 'fight' (whats happening now is no fight, it is a massacre because it is very very unequal, one party almost disarmed, the other with the best and a lot ofUS weapens).
THAT's the difference, THAT is why it pisses the world off, therefore you cannot compare it with any other war. Israel (and US) are constantly trying that (comparing) but the Palestinians are the ones who should have the right to free themselves, since THEY are the ones being occupied, harrased, humiliated en slaughtered for so many years.
I hope US will lose íts power to the world, its the only way the rest of the world can take over and doing things better and more honest and civilized.
of becoming crime statistics in many countries around the world, vocal politicians and 'defense' scientists alike.
I suppose Israel started this war at the instigation of the current Admin. as yet another poke in the eye to Obama. And to cause ever more serious troubles for the U.S., like more terrorism. But probably most of all, someone is making lots of money.
Cynics will say it will just be more of the same. at least where most of the America's imperial foreign policy is concerned.
But there are signs that the DoJ and old school constitutional gov employees are getting ready for the change, so thats hopeful.
Some people it seems do believe in their oath of allegiance to the US Constitution, the law, and the people.
hope so
gaza is not an independent nation
the palestinians have a ruling body on the west bank...it is the pa, led by the fatah, who despite the hostilities in gaza, have not interceded with acts of terror upon israel...nor has israel attacked the west bank
the choice for the gazans is clear...accept the pa...disarm hamas...and return to the negotiating table
Hamas supports PRE 67 Borders. In fact all countries but the US support this.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
What happened in 2005 when Israel pulled out of the Strip? They were attacked mercilessly. This doesn't justify the actions of the current Israeli administration, and I do not support them, but we need to cease with the obvious bias already.
If you leave a pen, and put walls around it. You leave a family locked in there with a thug. Close the door. Lock everything. Put armed guards outside the pen just in case, you know. Do not allow them out or anyone in. Do not let the father get to his job. Do not let the mother have milk for her children. Naturally, the hotheaded thug will lose his cool first.
You can then complain when they start aggressively throwing things over the walls? And "they started it". And when you come in and kill the thug and the father and one of the starving children, you think the woman and her remaining starving children will shower you with love and allow you to pick for her the husband of your choice?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/m...
They were eating grass. The banks had all closed at the end of the first week in December. There was no money, not even physical currency. Though making your enemy eat only one meal a day for a few months before fighting you is useful. After the military hardware mismatch, isn't that like making them fight you with *both* hands tied behind their backs?
You do realize that if Israel wanted to look strong after the 2006 Hezbollah debacle, this does not make it look strong? Rather they look weak.
You said it. It's astounding. What Israel did to Lebanon was unforgivable and yet swept under the mat. It's really terribly hard to contemplate what the Palestinians are, and have been for a very long time, going through.
seriously...i have had enough of your posting misquotes from rabidly anti semitic sites
here is the real quote and in context
http://books.google.com/books?id=nvgat25ddU4C...
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel Arabs and take their place."
the original quote comes from a work by benny morris, who now accepts that his citation was incorrect
No court in the world would uphold a victims choice.
Why must we always say Israel is right? The media. Why don't we in this country ever see the other side of this issue? The media. Are we all here leftist hippies for not supporting the Israeli murderers. Why is this any different than the Nazi Holocaust? the media.
Does anyone find it a little strange that 90 percent of the world think Israel wrong and the US is on the other side of the issue. Give these people a land, freedom, peace and maybe the rocket attacks will stop. No violence is not an answer but neither is oppression of a people.
right
being in the minority doesnt always make one wrong
and i will respect the world much more, when they call for an emergency session of the security council in order to condemn hamas for firing missiles into purely civilian targets
im sorry that you cannot see the difference between this operation and the nazi holocaust
there is indeed a difference...
Yessir there sure is.
your country does...that is why they lock up holocaust revisionists
What's happening to the Palestinians is disgusting and the Israelis should be ashamed (I believe that quite a few are).
It's interesting that archeological digs have shown that the Israelis were not actually in Jerusalem all those years ago as they claim - they were some miles away - I think the city is Zion?
I'm no expert in this, but I know one thing, this is shocking and the US desire to paint Palestinians as largely being terrorists is infuriating. No wonder they make home made bombs and pick up sticks - all the while the US supplies Israel with smart weapons.
Makes me ill.
One day you will need to accept that a large number of Palestinians support the utter destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere. Furthermore, they have always supported this idea -- it isn't simply a reaction to the actions of the Evil Zionists, regardless of how much you want to project a reasonable narrative onto their motives.
This doesn't mean that the sanctions and military strikes taken up by the Israeli government are acceptable, because they aren't, but the least reasonable of the two sides, according to history, is clear. Time and again, Israeli officials have agreed to concessions, peace talks, giving up land, ad infinitum, and the result is always the same. Like it or not, we need the Palestinian people to reject terrorist regimes and agree to let go of the past because there is too much blood on all hands involved for anyone to ever be satiated.
You are watching to MUCH MSM.
Israel have NEVER accepted pre 1967 Borders as UN Mandates.
that's a FACT.
... 4>800 ?
i aint even gonna go there
I reckon you, tubesox, should try living in Gaza for a few weeks or months or perhaps be there forever with no way out, no rights, no electricity or water even.
I think it would be interesting to see you change your tune.
Lynda
Extremely well said.
if you go and live in sderot
ok?
They were resisting an illegal occupation of their land by an invading army.
tubesox
Excellent job of not addressing the fact that, as gump points out, the American media almost always presents the Israeli side while rarely if ever offering the Palestinian point of view. Or the fact that Obama has expressed "deep concern" for Israeli and Palestinian deaths without pointing out the vast difference between the Palestinian deaths and the miniscule deaths of the Israelis.
obama doesnt blame israel for having a superior security system
nor does he deal with the faux concept of "proportionality" as a result
nor does he excuse terror attacks
and please....stop with the "blame the media" game
it doesnt work for wingnuts...it doesnt work here
long gone are the days when media sources are limited to the big 3...remember the "internets"?
the palestinian side is there for all to see and hear
I have an Idea!!
Why don't we move Israel to Florida or California, or somewhere in US?
From what we see here in Europe (Netherlands) US is almost similar to Israel. Biggest friends of the world. Never a comment whatever warcrimes they commit. Stopping, with veto, every effort of the rest of the world for peace in Palestine. And, last but certainly not least: sending lots of money en shiploads of ammunition (this time more than ever!!) to Israel.
It would be much cheaper if you make one extra state of america, you don't have to use bilions of dollars for weapens anymore, Israel is saver than ever.
AND: the palestinians have finally peace and chances for rebuilding and recovering.
You're right. The only issue I see is that we've run out of native tribes to take land from. If only we had someone left to displace to make them a homeland. Too bad, the idea was brilliant though.
(sarcasm - like the post I respond to)
(is part Cherokee)
lichfield states,
" What Israel should do now is work for a cease-fire on terms that allow both sides to save some face. It should then do something it has done far too little of in the past: improve Gazans’ living conditions significantly. The aim should be to construct a long-lived state of calm in which Hamas has more to lose by breaching the cease-fire than by sticking to it."
when israel pulled out of gaza,it left behind not only the structures from the settlements, but an entire industry of hydroponic farms. these farms were taken over by the pa, who saw them as a good start to create an robust economy.
hamas, knowing that the farms were not only built by israelis, but purchased for them by american jews, systematically destroyed both the farm system and the settlements.
why would hamas now accept aid from israel?
furthermore, despite the israeli withdrawal, not one gazan has been relocated from the refugee camps into permanent dwellings...why is that?
does it not make sense that hamas chooses to make sure that the people of gaza remain in an impovershed state, so that they will remain dependent upon hamas for their very survival?
If I Google "Hamas destroys hydroponics" I get zero hits. I'd like to see some evidence.
In the second case, Google says you're at least partly wrong. The UN says that close to the Israeli border, constant pressure, including attacks on UN officials overseeing aid deliveries, from Israel, make relocation risky. But near the Egyptian border, relocation has occured - as at the camp at Rafah, once the largest in GFaza, where "several thousand residents have since moved from the camp to a housing project in nearby Tel es-Sultan." The camp itself is now a small town under UN auspices: "Today the camp is almost indistinguishable from the adjacent town of Rafah. It is divided into 17 blocks; about 20 percent of the shelters have concrete roofs and 80 percent have asbestos roofs." The close by "Canada" camp which found itself in Egypt after the redrawing of the international boundary in 1982 is now empty with 5,000 people relocated to the Tel es-Sultan housing project in Gaza (not a camp).
Even there, Israeli attacks often occur:
"Since the start of the second Intifada in September 2000, Rafah camp has suffered from a campaign of demolitions by the Israeli military along the Egyptian border. Several hundred families have been made homeless and UNRWA is working to provide them with replacement shelters in a safe part of town.
Since September 2000, UNRWA Relief and Social Services Department has calculated 1,728 houses were demolished by the IDF action at the border fence area in Rafah (3,337 families/17,362 persons). 2236 families/ 12,406 persons found eligible for UNRWA rehousing assistance. UNRWA, so far, had handed over 414 housing units to 444 families with a further 109 housing units for 116 families are completed and will be handed over to the beneficiaries soon and 17 housing units for 20 families are under construction in Rafah."
Regards, C
but as you are the blog starter, i hope i get a pass
and i will only post the links you requested
oh, and i shouldve said greenhouses...sorry
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=11...
the following site you can take with a grain of salt, but they have before and after pictures
http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/gaza_gree...
as you can see by the above site, initially only a few of the greenhouses were destroyed, however, during the infighting between hamas and fatah, it seems that the rest were also destroyed...they arent there anymore, and there are no reports of the idf destroying them
sorry, seems that there were some left during the blockade
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNew...
another link from csm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1025/p04s01-wom...
always have
But they don't prove Hamas "knowing that the farms were not only built by israelis, but purchased for them by american jews, systematically destroyed both the farm system and the settlements." None of your non-wingnut links mention Hamas as being responsible for the looting, all say it was a generic problem brought on by extreme poverty and attendant short-trem opportunism. (And one could point to Israeli blockades as the primary cause of that poverty.)
In fact, the JP link says: "Hamas legislators called on the PA to use an iron fist against the gangs that attacked the greenhouses, pointing out that hundreds of greenhouses had been destroyed in recent months. The legislators branded the attackers as thieves, but stopped short of blaming any of the armed groups."
On balance, I find you cannot substantiate your empirical premises, so your conclusion from them - the rhetorical question "does it not make sense that hamas chooses to make sure that the people of gaza remain in an impovershed state, so that they will remain dependent upon hamas for their very survival?" - is unsupported, at least by those premises.
Regards C
Which are seen as not viable and vulnerable are going to be dismantled and moved, or at the very least cannibalized for glass for house windows.
They would also make for good targets for bored IDF gunners.
And did the Israeli settlers booby trap them before they left...
The displaced settlers would have been very bitter about being relocated back to Israel proper.
this whole concept could be either solved or encapsulated by a handful of greenhouses.
Lets replace the greenhouses! Now we've solved the Israel-Palestinian issue, whats up next?
(yes, I know its a snarky way of pointing out a complete red herring)
sorry, but this was an olive branch
as were the buildings that were left
we have seen what the palestinians have done with the olive branch
and in turn, you would like the israelis to just hand over the entire tree
Yes, my point is that your greenhouses (and your olive branch) are red herrings. I think this thread has adequately covered that there is enough olive branch shunning by both sides going back decades. Read, Shlomo Ben-Ami, really.
You have no idea what I want. I haven't said actually, I don't think you care. However, I would caution you about assuming. And, I'm not the least bit insulted by your not caring. Since frankly, I'm a nobody, and if Middle East peace hinges on what I want .. I think the world is doomed! Even, what I want is yet another red herring.
If this conflict could have been solved by the clever use of metaphors, I think our betters would have done so before this.
for your allegation that settlers left any booby traps or that idf targeted anything?
i do know that the idf destroyed green houses that were palestinian made and owned....and that was wrong
as i have said, i think the destruction of structures as a military tactic is stupid
and excusing destruction and looting is exactly what occured in iraq...and we know what happened as a consequence
and i was attempting to be balanced by showing the "response" of hamas
except that the pa occused hamas of the destruction and looting
the facts on the ground remain
the palestinians destroyed a viable economic and food source...that cannot be denied
With all due respect, you are denying historical fact.
israel is operating in gaza with the same
fucking mindset that got us in iraq. the
ruling govt body are bastards. israel is
soon to reap a rapture from the arab world
like has never been seen. israel obviously
will not be content until they have murdered
everyone on gaza. i am tired of israel's
insane excuses to over react to anything
in the world, so they can scorch gaza.
god in any form is not looking on israel
with kindness or amusement.
dont you think they would have by now?
they all see the benefit of the destruction of hamas and ultimately hizbollah
[Hey! Didn't we make an agreement yesterday, tubesox? I wasn't kidding. Take the night off of the Israel threads and come back tomorrow. Site Monitor]
Shouldn't that be Hezbollah? For an expert there seems to be a lot of mis-typing here.
The other day there was some odd spelling for Al-Qaeda.
ysbaddaden, I think there's varying forms of spelling. I've seen so many different ways of writing Al-Qaeda... I don't think it's a mistake...
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/
Especially when you consider that Yemen Al-Q ring arrested last year and their direct links to Israel.
Financial and command control.
BBC and all the non American news outlets reported on this event.
Google it and be fcuking amazed and shocked, if thats even possible after seven years of Chimpy and the fake GWOT.
This is entire unfair. Firstly, tubesox is one of the only people representing the other side of the coin. Secondly, posters here are perpetually calling him/her out -- addressing tubesox by name, et cetera. What would you do in his/her shoes?
Is it really okay for people to talk smack about "the Israelis," the "Zionists," without repercussion? In so many threads thus far, I have seen people humanizing Israelis and even wishing harm upon its civilians. Why is this allowed?
I don't say this simply because I seem to be more sympathetic toward Israel than some; after all, I think their current military actions are unethical as well as strategically terrible. I respect those who disagree with anything I say. On the other hand, I don't want you guys--who run a fantastic website, and are typically fantastic moderators--to allow personal feelings to colour what you deem acceptable in terms of comments. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict tends to bring out the worst in everyone, and moderators are not immune from strong emotional reaction!
I think tubesox should stay, as long as personal attacks by (and on) him are called. And the moderator did call Loom on one attack.
just for clarification
Yes, you being male, now THAT certainly explains everything.
(I joke! I joke!)
Tubie was easily discernible as a male (or a he as he put it)!
That's what all of the puffing is all about! Apparently he is a Zionist or an apologist thereof. I don't know if I would take that as a liberal view or not. As a constitutional loving, progressive viewpoint aspirant, born citizen of the U.S. of A, I don't, I believe Zionism needs to be stamped out. Many god fearing Jews believe the same:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
The Torah Position on the Current Conflict in Gaza
Jan 4, 2009
Once again, we find ourselves reading horrifying headlines regarding the unrest in the Middle East. In one long chain of tragedies and civilian bloodshed, residential neighborhoods have been transformed into war zones, the daily lives of civilians distorted by ever-present shadows of terror and fright.
Our readers have long been familiar with the Torah position; let us re-announce it boldly and clearly:
The Zionist ideology is antithetical to the Torah. Zionism was deviously designed to replace the Torah and its holy, God-given commandments with nationalistic, power-driven ideals that are devoid of holiness, godliness, or spirituality.
God-fearing Jews believe that the ultimate Redemption of the Jewish Nation will come about only through the Hands of God, and that at the time of the Redemption, peace will reign in the entire world. Any other type of forced redemption is but a sinful transgression, condemned by God and His Holy Torah.
What more proof does one need than the fact that for centuries, Jews have lived peacefully in Arabic countries, enjoying the respect and friendship of their neighbors? The tragedy of Zionism changed all of that. The painful truth is that in the eyes of the Zionist government, Jews are merely the cannon-fodder needed for the State of Israel to achieve its agenda.
Obviously, the State of Israel has absolutely no connection with either Jews or Judaism. Furthermore, Torah-true Jews did not participate in the founding of the State, and for decades, we have announced our disapproval and disassociation from the State of Israel at every opportunity.
"The following explanation clarifies this issue beautifully: Would the Jews be held responsible in a conflict between North Korea and South Korea? Obviously not! In the same way, Jews should not be held responsible for the Zionists conflicts with their neighbors. The State of Israel has as much to do with Jews and Judaism as does New Zealand or Zimbabwe," said Rabbi Hersh Lowenthal.
May it be clear to every nation, to every person in the entire world: JEWS ARE NOT ZIONISTS!
The Zionists are neither our representatives nor our spokesmen. They have absolutely no right to speak in the name of world Jewry. It is a terrible mistake to confuse Jews with Zionism, or to blame Jews for Zionist actions. We truly wish to live in peace with every nation in the world. We pray for our Jewish brethren as well as for the non-Jews in the Middle East, that they may be saved from danger and peril.
And most of all, we await that great day when G-d's glory will be revealed in the entire world, and there will be peace for all of humanity. Amen.
TRUE TORAH JEWS:
Great link, and it's heartening to see that some Jews are taking a stand against aggressive Zionism. As an earlier link suggested, the government of Israel which is conducting this warmongering against the Palestinians no longer has religion as its psychic source for its bloodthirsty attacks. God has been replaced by "the Israeli people". IOW, earlier governments may have truly believed they were conducting war against the Palestinians because GOD wanted them to have all that land, but now the government is not religious anymore. It is secular, and its reason for the same kind of bloodthirsty aggression is "for the Israeli people".
This kind of delving into motivation is sort of like a Jesuit conversation (or discussing something with a Talmudic scholar), but it does impact religious Jews. Most Jews whom I know are not religious as much as "cultural Jews", celebrating the holidays, visiting Israel as a high spot, and occasionally going to temple, and all are in various states of confusion about WHAT to think about the Israeli government's aggression against the Palestinians. I truly don't envy peaceable Jews, religious or not, caught in such a conflict of values.
Protest tomorrow in SF. I'm sure there are others close to where you are.
Saturday, January 10 National Day of Emergency Mass Action:
Stop the U.S./Israeli War on Palestine!
Let Gaza Live!
Mass March in San Francisco
Gather at 11am at Civic Center Plaza, Larkin and Grove Sts., Civic Center BART
Solidarity with Heroic Gaza: Statement from the International Action Center -- Jan. 6, 2009
The International Action Center condemns the criminal U.S.-backed Israeli bombing and invasion of Gaza, and the massacre of now nearly 600 and serious wounding of thousands of Palestinians. We call upon the progressive, anti-war and workers' movement in the United States to join the angry, growing worldwide protests of these latest Israeli war crimes with U.S. complicity and stop the genocide. We refuse impunity to the Israeli state and its backers.
The rightist Zionist regime had the arrogance to announce in advance its intention to strike Gaza's embattled civilians. Like every serious Israeli move, this latest assault was done with a U.S. green light using U.S. weapons and spy services.Today, Jan. 6, after 10 days of unrelenting bombing and three of a heavily armored ground invasion by the Israeli military, the Bush government has publicly supported the Israeli massacre and no top U.S. political leaders, either Republican or Democratic, have spoken against it.
Despite the images and reports spirited out of Gaza that prove that most victims are civilians and many are children, the Israeli leaders -- Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni -- continue to arrogantly defend every step of their genocidal plan. The Israeli attacks -- targeting civilian population centers, housing, water and electrical infrastructure, food supplies, government services, schools and universities, prisons and hospitals, destroying the sewage treatment -- reveal a malicious intent to inflict as many casualties as possible, including on children.
The International Action Center stands unequivocally with the right of the Palestinian people to defend themselves by any means at their disposal and to resist this latest attempt by U.S./Israeli occupation forces to exterminate their very existence as a people and a nation. The Jan. 1 assassination of Nizar Rayyan, a leader of the democratically elected Hamas government of Gaza, and at least 13 members of his family, including many children, by a 1,000 pound bunker-buster bomb paid for by U.S. taxpayers, was another grievous Israeli war crime against civilians.
Under Israeli siege for over a year, the people of Gaza had been struggling to survive with insufficient food, power and a damaged and depleted medical-care system. Humanitarian organizations have condemned this siege as an Israeli crime against humanity, carried out without protest from Israel's powerful allies in Western Europe and the United States. The Israeli siege itself violated the cease-fire agreement. And the Palestinian people in Gaza have faced down the siege over 18 months, providing once again an example for the world's people that the criminal U.S.-Israeli alliance has grown desperate to tear down.
Like the bombing and invasion, the siege itself is a U.S.-Israeli war crime, with the billions in yearly U.S. aid used to cut off their electricity, kick them out of their homes and now to massacre the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. Meanwhile, back home, the same U.S. government lets banks foreclose on workers' homes, landlords evict tenants, and bosses lay off millions of workers, while tens of millions live in fear of an illness that will wipe out their savings -- if the economic crisis hasn't already.
The interests of working people in the U.S. can only be served by halting the genocidal attack. We stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people against U.S. imperialism and Israel, Washington's outpost in the Middle East.
We demand that U.S. aid to Israel be cut to zero, and that this money be used instead for reparations for the Palestinian people, to ensure their right to return, and for homes, jobs, health care and education right here at home.
International Action Center,
2940 16TH STREET, #207
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94103
OR
55 W. 17th St., 5th Fl.,
NY, NY 10011
IACenter.org
really?
but of course, these protestors dont support terrorists
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
about the jews, there's a huge outcry, but it's ok when it's against the other guys.
...I find it to be the other way around. Palestinians had a children's show with a Mickey Mouse-esque character that told people to hate and kill the Zionists, and guess what? People were sympathetic toward the Palestinians. 'Well, look at what Israel does! It's their fault!' Palestinians are never, ever responsible for intentionally lobbing bombs at civilians, because the Evil Zionists started it!
Israel really doesn't want peace. When the Palestine Authority was the major "terrists" Israel refused to deal with them. Now Hamas is getting the same treatment, yet being blamed for the atrocious conditions, courtesy of Israel of course.
It's amazing this nation still gets the global aid it gets, yet the Palestinians get blamed for not having the ambition to feed, cloth and look after their needy. With what? More aid goes to Israel, than to the Palestinians. Sad, sad, sad.
It's not about the rockets fired toward Israel.....it's not about the elections about to take place in Israel..........It's all about taking more land for Israel........just wait and see.......that's always been the case.......
On this issue, please go here:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/arti...
There is a very lively and highly informative discussion going on over at ICH on what's going on.
As well as the conversation here....which is also always very lively and highly informative.
isn't the word to describe that one. Although some there have sound rational arguments, some are just vile.
What do they give themselves, Purple Knishes?
I do not know.
I haven't had a knish in a long time, but as I recall they are quite tasty.
I suppose they could be made with purple potatoes, which I have seen here and there.
Are you, personally, into Purple Knishes or are you merely trying to make a snarky remark about the videos I posted and the comments folks are making over at ICH??
The only ICH I know is Ich ben Berliner.
The blue ones are particularly tasty, as I recall. They are made with blue potatoes and only the best chopped meat. Delicious!
I have little sympathy for either side in this ongoing feud. I do feel sorry for those people trapped in both countries that are ready to progress and move on with their lives and their children's futures.
First and foremost, the struggle for a Jewish state and a Dar al-Islam (some kind of Islamic region) are both hold overs from the childhood of civilization. They're both trying to hold their position in the river of time that is sweeping everyone together at an increasing rate. Places like New York where everyone lives together with a large degree of tolerance are the future of the planet or else we won't be here long.
For Israel, when the rockets were flying how many civilian settlers did they remove from the West Bank? About zero! These civilian colonists have been living on land that doesn't belong to them for decades. This is certainly an aggressive act. As long as the Palestinians continue to attack Israel I support a military occupation but the civilian occupation must end. Israel needs to reign in it's own group of crazy zealots.
As for the Palestinians, please, they are hopeless. They've been trying this terrorist crap for decades. It hasn't got a chance of working; no than if they fielded an army in the desert and went toe-to-toe with Israel. It only dooms innocent people on both sides as they attack and Israel attacks back. Pretty much like what's happening right now. Now, if they had any common sense, they would have adopted the tactics of Gandhi and forsworn violence and peacefully tried to claim their fair share of the land, the water and the other riches of the region. I am certain this would have ended the whole thing years ago. It could be over in a year if they went that route now.
Common sense! You say you have little sympathy for either side, whereas I find that I have some sympathy for both -- but we're two sides of the same coin, I believe. The Israeli government, under various administrations, has fumbled badly with Palestine. I really do understand why this occurred, because I am familiar with the almost-endless history of assaults Israelis have been enduring since the damned Bronze Age. Alternately, I can understand how the harsh sanctions and dehuminizing treatment of Palestinians have spawned a new generation of would-be martyrs, willing to do whatever it takes to remove Jews from the Earth altogether. To top it all off, you have religious freaks on both sides who have a sense of entitlement when it comes to specific areas of land.
new posters make a little more sense!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/...
It seems lessons were learned from the grassroots campaign for Prez in the US. Others have figured out that the best way to influence is on those intertubes now.
Thanks so much for posting this link. It confirms everything I had always suspected.
I makes me so pissed-off I'm forwarding it to every single person on my mailing list. I'll be talking about it for days to anyone and everyone.
Thanks again.
referring to the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/...
It pisses me off as well and I will spread the word (of the above mentioned link).
Thanks for bringing this to light. I will certainly share this.
yet another non-binding resolution, supporting Israel:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/09/gaza.u...
by Nancy Pelosi. Nice.
Hamas doesn't want to negotiate. Hell, it doesn't even want to negotiate with Fatah.
Well, at least that side admitted its mistakes. You don't seem to get that the reason Bush is equated with the fundy Muslims is that they refuse to admit they're wrong, too.
Yes, because sending some poor zombie-in your place-to blow up civilians with a bomb strapped to your chest shows real courage.
As Juan Cole points out in "Neoconservatism Dies in Gaza" Israel's brutal attempt to crush Hamas is in fact the final step in what the NeoCons had hoped would be a total transformation of the Middle East, shifting the balance of power from Iran to Israel. The effort has obviously achieved precisely the opposite.
The broad outlines of the plan are to be found in the 1996 document A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm - depose Saddam, pressure Syria to leave Lebanon, crush Hezbollah, and finally crush the Palestinian resistance.
Israel has lost.
On an AJ interview peice they had an Iraeli defense analyst on (an Israili military one not a non-Israeli).
He admitted it was about Iran. Egypt as well has said so. They describe the Hamas election as having a Shia proxy state on their border (despite Hamas being Sunni) due to their support from Iran. Saudi Arabia is also quiet as it is in a cold war with Iran. The rest of the Arab leaders are nervous. Jordan allowing open Moslem Brotherhood organized protests is stunning.
So, granted it was about Hamas' status as an Iranian-proxy, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why they went this route. Elections only? I'm cynical but that would be almost inhuman. They must know peace with most of their Arab neighbors will be impossible for decades now. Was it to goad Iran into an attack? Obviously, the US using Israel as the proxy to weaken Hezbollah and Hamas (as in your links) makes sense .. for the US. Why would Israel go along this far? After all ... while we are quoting Israeli politicians ..
"Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice."
- Moshe Dayan
And even he sought peace with Israel's neighbors before his death.
Naomi Klein: Enough. It's time for a boycott
(something went wrong so the reply is not here)
http://www.boycottisraelnow.com/list.htm
Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'
Both you and Klein are voices of reason in the midst of this insanity.
Since you know that Israel pulling back and releasing land, easing sanctions, etcetera, will lead to the death of many Israelis civilians -- well, why are you so confident that this is what Israel should do? You are okay with condemning people to death?
You may think that Israel is bad and wrong and evil, but the fact of the matter is that whenever Israel has eased up whatsoever, Hamas and its supporters have struck. Every single time.
The most likely answer to "what would the Nazis be replaced with", given the Allies' actions, is something even nastier and more extremist. Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea to make covert overtures towards the Third Reich in an attempt to push it towards more moderate polices.
Hamas' goal is nothing short of genocide. There is no compromise, no exception. This is a group that makes suicide belts for children. What in the name of God do you expect a "moderate" faction to consist of?
Why is it so hard to accept that Hamas, as a group, deserves to be destroyed just like we successfully worked to eliminate the Nazis?
Do you know how many more 'moderate' Nazis ended up working in high positions in both government and industry? More than a double handful.
Might as well say "Hamas, as a group, deserves to be destroyed just like the Irgun should have been". They were terrorists too, after all.
Oh, and "Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea to make covert overtures towards the Third Reich in an attempt to push it towards more moderate polices." That's exactly what happened - Doenitz et al.
Regards, C
Yes, those "little Eichmanns" Churchill was fond of so much. They were so "moderate" they didn't call for surrender until they'd been defeated in battle.
Yes, and it failed.
Tequila, I meant more than a double handful after the end of the war.
I notice you didn't respond to the Irgun conundrum - would you care to mention the peace process in Northern Ireland?
"and it failed". You do know about Doenitz and Germany's immediately post-Hitler government, don't you? All had been Nazis or worked alongside the Nazis, were more moderate than the Fuhrer's inner circle and had been engaged in back-channel contact with the allies.
Regards, C
Yes, they had been engaged in back channel communications. That happened with the Reich in ruyins, the Soviets encircling Berlin, the 101st drinking Goering's wine vault dry in the Eagle's Nest, and the world learning about places with names like Dachau. It was only when they they realized that odds were that they would be captured by the Soviets first did the so-called "moderate elements" decide to try to negotiate a peace.
What came first? The military destruction of the Third Reich.
He "seemed" to be, though. Even managed to convince Hitler to designate him as successor without ever actually belonging to the Nazi party and as soon as he became leader offered a surrender deal. He had been in contact with British intelligence since 1943.
But you want to make Hamas=Nazis, and this historical sideline is the path to it.
Let's try a different historical discussion. How is Hamas any different from the Irgun or IRA?
they are not. Burdened with the responsibilities of governing as opposed to being a purely militant organization Hamas will ultimately have to deal with the responsibility of doing what is best for the people who elected them. I expect this will take some little time. As the organization gets larger and assumes more obligations with regard to social services it will become more diverse in its' internal political spectrum and more moderates will emerge. I will not be the least bit surprised to see some future Israeli and Hamas leaders standing side by side for a photo op.
I long for a peaceful solution and an end to madness, but if you read up a little on Hamas, you will quickly discover that no, they are not a reasonable organization and yes, their singular goal is the utter destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.
Now you're trying to equate Hamas with the Nazis. That's more than absurd.
I haven't seen Palestinians on the march to murder, invade and conquer other countries. I haven't seen Hamas setting up concentration camps and rounding up the Jews for extermination. Palestinians don't wear gold belt buckles as they invade other countries or collect human skin lamps.
But it's close to what Israel is doing to the Gazan Palestinians. They certainly want them driven out from their land and exterminated if they won't go.
Perhaps you missed the whole series of Arab-Israeli Wars? Y'know, where the Palestinians and their Arab allies repeatedly attacked Israel with the stated goal of driving the Jews into the sea?
Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself against attackers.
Good grief!
For sixty years, the government of Israel's stated goal has been to drive the Palestinians out of the land so the Israelis can confiscate it all beyond the 1967 borders. Israel has resorted to dozens of war-crimes in an attempt to realize their dream. Palestine is the one who has a "right" to defend itself from war-crimes.
After WW II, the British Mandate was a travesty of justice that the Palestinians have never recovered from. And Israel's continuing confiscation of Palestinian lands beyond the '67 borders was and still is a war-crime, so let's not pretend that Israel needs to defend itself against the self-defensive actions of the Palestinians. Government officials of Israel have made countless statements about their intentions to rid the region of Palestinians for decades.
Are you another one of those volunteers for hazbara propaganda?
It isn't going to work this time, you know.
I don't have the patience for this, so please, let me just inform you that your description of history is fucked to the point of being cartoonish.
You came per hazbara instructions, too?
If you don't have the patience for this, then leave. This is a discussion, and nobody's out to please YOU.
... of calling them names, could you please provide links or titles of books that would properly correct the view of history?
This is a general thread that will hopefully address a lot of the issues discussed in this forum.
I am an Israeli American, living in New York. I served in the IDF in the mid 90s and was mostly stationed in Gaza. I went on to a career in television and documentary film making in the states. 2 of my documentaries were about the Israeli Palestinian conflicts, one of them focused on Israeli Conscientious refuses.
There is a great amount of dissent within Israel when it comes to this operation, and there is also legitimate anger at the Palestinians.
What Israel is doing right now is devastating and tragic, and what Hamas is doing is devastating and tragic, and it is sad that the people who are posting here cant see that both are clearly wrong.
We can start going back in history, and the conversation will take us about 2000-5000 years back and we wont get anywhere.
The reality is that Israel is here to stay as a jewish state, and the Palestinians deserve there own sovereign country, much like my grandparents did (their entire family was wiped out in the holocaust) where they can live in peace and quiet.
Most Israelis, and most Palestinians accept this fact, but the minorities in both end up dictating the situation, and inflaming emotions, as I got to experience first hand when Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli fanatic, and Hammas decided to detonate 3 suicide bombs in Tel Aviv 2 weeks before elections, ensuring the hawkish Netanyahu would get elected.
It is easy to sit in Chicago, or LA, and say that because Israel has "only had 12 people killed" its is not justified in its anger. If one of those 12 people was your mother, or sister, and your government was doing nothing to protect you I'm sure you would think differently.
Much like it is unfair for my friends sitting at a coffee shop in Tel Aviv, to say "they brought this onto them selves by electing Hammas".
As for the IDF, I can promise you that they are not intentionally bombing schools and hospitals. war is a terrible thing, and 95% of the soldiers are 18 year olds who are scared sh^tless. There are a few rotten apples just like there are everywhere, but the majority of the soldiers are operating out of pure survivalism.
The point I am trying to get at is that in Israel and Palestine, it is very difficult to be level headed and thinking clearly right now, so my request from everyone here is to respect the fact that there nearly 8 million people who mostly want to raise their families, and go to work in the morning on both sides, and are stuck in an aweful situation, writing posts diminishing the value of either sides life or responsibility is as counter productive as this operation.
Fallow UN Resolutions.
And tell the ZIONISTS to forget about what "God" told them.
Retire to the 67 Borders.
THAT'S SIMPLE.
Otherwise they won't have peace never.
Very well said.
Of course both sides are at fault, and both sides suffer to some extent.
Let's hope that a new cease fire can be established and that both sides can work once again on a two state solution.
I think there's another problem with the two state solution, border issues. A common cause for wars, even in Europe, are border issues even though they were set up by the Treay of Westphalia to end the 100 year war of roughly the 15th century.
If one side or another can make a claim of a parcel of land being "traditionally" there's that could cause hostilities.
But it might work if they could carve out a DMZ zone.
Oh, and of course, two states Never declare war on each other.
Now that is a great idea. I think you really hit on something here Y.
If either side stood in opposition to this idea, it would show that they weren't interested in peace. Just Land.
Not to mention it would give each other space to monitor the other..
Make it at least 1.5 miles wide.
Yeah. I don't think the DMZ idea is unreasonable.
But I also think that for a two state solution to work, the international community needs to help establish a trasportation corridor between Gaza and the west bank. My personal feeling is that this corridor should be underground. It would be costly, but minimally intrusive, I think.
If it allowed us to establish a more permanent peace, the dollars would be well worth it.
Kind of like this
Israel saw this one coming. That's why they built that wall.
So they wouldn't have to give up the land. Just a thought.
As for the underground trans corridor, Israel would never go for that.
Why wouldn't they?
Because the threat of some lunatic sneaking explosives on the rail. Detonating it underground,under Israel.
Probably would cause some damage.
I think it's not a bad idea(rail). Security would be an issue. But it could be done ,I suppose.
Yeah, clearly security is a concern.
But there are ways of mitigating risks, such as putting the tunnel fairly deep so that even if there was an explosion, it would result mainly in a disruption of tunnel usage but not a surface disruption in Israel.
I think our assumption once again is that it would be a Palestinian lunatic doing this, and the incentives to do so would likely be much smaller if we got to the point where we actually had a two state solution and a proper corridor between Gaza and the west bank.
Not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm just saying if we got to that point it would probably be far less likely. And it would be counterproductive from a Palestinian perspective since it would once again cut off Gaza from the west bank.
You raise all valid points.
The only problem is, Israel just blew it.
There will be thousands of new Palestinians and other people from different countries that will go out of their way to inflict damage on Israel.
And Yes, Israel would be considered a threat to the rail system as well. Just as likely.
fubar.
Good point...
I've been busy today, so I'm late.
One trouble with underground tunnels is the risk of sapping. That was SOP during World War I's trench warfare.
Most of the wall is just chain-link fault. There are only two areas wherein the wall is larger, and that's because those were areas where Palestinians had the high ground and would literally pick off Israeli civilians.
This is a wonderful post.
I hope it will at least make some here take pause before mindlessly blaming all Israelis for the actions of hateful militants who didn't even need need an excuse before demanding that all Jews perish. Israel needs a better, smarter government -- but Israelis are nonetheless not to blame for everything that happens. Not even close. Both sides need to look to the future, not the past.
that we here are harder on Israel, not because of our latent Hamas sympathies, but rather because we see in Israel a nation like ourselves.
And, we paradoxically expect better of it (while not necessarily expecting better of Hamas), and at the same time hope that it does not repeat the mistakes its patron the US has recently made.
I think that America is so angry about what the Israeli government is doing because it's far too close to what GW Bush did. Saddam Hussein may have been a brutal dictator but Bush sent in troops to kill, capture, and torture everybody they came upon.
I'm not sure we expect better of Israel, though maybe we do. I AM sure that most of us know that Bush committed war crimes in that invasion, attack, and occupation of Iraq with the support of Congress. With dread we see it happening again, this time with Israel at the helm invading Gaza, encouraged by American politicians and the White House. We are forced to live the nightmare AGAIN.
And it could be even simpler. It's easy to see who the bully in this matter is, and most of us HATE bullies.
.. than we think.
I was talking with a Pakistani-American friend about Afghanistan recently (before the Israel attacks). One thing he pointed out that that would help the US's interests in the Afghan-Pakistan-India mess would be if it would become the champion of human rights in reality that many American's see it as trying to be. He admits it would have to do much good for some time to effectively convince many that it means business.
I look at a headline showing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and right next to it a headline about the US legislature vote reaffirming Israel's justification for the action, and this on the front page of what is widely considered to be the most moderate Arab press outlet, and then I think back to that discussion and I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
tubesox the plumber,
The bottom line is, while children and their mothers are being intentionally targeted by the Israeli terrorist state, you sit here and bring up trivial bullshit that's supposed to make Israel's actions, what exactly, mild by comparison?
We get it, Israelis in the center-of-the-universe, holy-town of Sderot are scared of the rockets. You've made your point clear.
But, your persistence makes you look petty and idiotic, especially in light of the fact that the Palestinian people have been under a military occupation for 40 years now and are born and raised at the end of a barrel of a gun.
Dispute this all you want. No smart person, no educated person, no sane person would continue to give you the time of day, let alone the attention you crave. YOU, have zero credibility at this point. You're merely a nuance, a fly, buzzing around, carrying garbage from one point to another. Acting like a psycho who can't defend his position honestly because you KNOW that you have no moral, nor historical ground to stand on.
As someone who grew up in Israel and knows both the Palestinians and the Jews in the region, has read detailed history about the conflict, speaks both Hebrew and Arabic, and mastered in International Relations, { Knock off the petty insults. SiteMonitor}
The only response you deserve at this point is mockery and ridicule, because if you had any respect for yourself, any dignity, or at the very least respect for the people on this blog, you'd stop posting your inane, lacking arguments.
Can we try not to sink to the level of insults?
We will all be in a better place when we can focus on solutions, not pointing out how stupid those we disagree with are.
This post is the sort of thing I am talking about. Someone calls out tubesox by name, and after throwing fecal matter at Israel and all of its citizens, says, "The only response you deserve at this point is mockery and ridicule, because if you had any respect for yourself, any dignity, or at least the very respect for the people on this blog, you'd stop posting your inane, lacking arguments."
And where are you? Of course, if tubesox responds, you'll edit the post and ask him/her to leave. Fun that.
{ Believe it or not, but we do have regular lives. That's why C&L came up with the "flag inappropriate comments". We appreciate all the help we can get. I'm not the one who had the conversation with tubesox. We have to deal with both ends of the spectrum. So if you see something that needs attention, by all means, use the flag comments. Thank You. SiteMonitor.}
had a long discussion with the site monitor...its cool
you can call me
tubesox the system admin
and if you really grew up in israel as you say, and studied history, you would also know that those in the west bank and gaza were under occupation from 48 to 67...that is why they say (and i hear them quite clearly) 60 years of occupation
problem is...those occupations were under egyptian and jordanian rule
and during that 20 year period...the world and the palestinians said nothing
btw, why did arafat (an egyptian with no ties at all to the palestinian people) begin the plo in 1964...a full 3 years before the 6 day war?
Mockery and ridicule are the only things you ever offer to anyone who disagrees with you. I assume you meant to to use the word "nuisance" instead of nuance in your latest reasoned reply. The lack of nuance in your diatribes and the frequent lapses in both grammar and spelling somehow makes me doubt you have a masters in anything much less international relations. While we all make such mistakes yours is usually hitting the submit button.
In Hebrew, there's a saying..."Yorim Ve Bochim" - "Shooting and crying". Crocodile tears aplenty.
The Israeli terrorist forces have shot at a UN director in Gaza. She filed an official complain against the state for violating international law and committing war crimes.
The Israeli army is now shooting at buildings where journalists are staying. (Remember Hotel Palestine in Baghdad?)
Israel is also dropping leaflets instructing Gazans to go and hide in one safe regional building, then bombards that building and shells it for 24 hours straight
UN reports from UN officials on the ground also indicate that Israeli forces are storming into Gaza houses and forcing the families to stay put so as to use them as human shields.
I've lost count of the war crimes the so-called only Democracy in the middle east has committed in the last 2 weeks.
Of course, thanks to the United States, Israel will continue to slaughter innocent people, or as one elderly Gazan put it, "anything that moves".
They Hate Us for Our Freedoms
tzeakot lo ozrot le af echad
As long as the merchants of death make a profit, this unending war will continue to fester.
Why should one third of our foreign aid go to Israel... with their standard of living already so high? Why do we give fuel, planes, munitions to a country that has its own secret stock of 200 nuclear warheads!!! They can obviously defend themselves, if they have can cause so much destruction to Lebanon and Gaza!
We need that money HERE, for our own infrastructure, to build and not to destroy. The present economic crisis is the perfect opportunity to wrench our wallet out of Israel's fingers.
Too many of our congress-critters are beholden to Israel and too many government officials hold dual-citizenship. Their allegiance is not to the US. Read at the latest resolution and weep at how one-sided it is.
We have shown our power with the forces rallied for Obama. With the monies raised for him. The time and sweat of volunteers. It will take time, but we can get rid of that loathsome war-profiteering Feinstein, that nasty little Lieberman, and the rest of them. If they take ANY money from AIPAC, they don't get a penny of ours... and we WILL support their challengers and opponents. If Congress doesn't speak for us, we'll speak for ourselves.
You raise some good questions.
While I'm glad the author doesn't think the Israeli attack on Palestinians will end their "terrorism" (Terrorism?), the problem with this thought is that the Gaza Palestinians' actions toward the Israelis are nowhere NEAR "equal" to the Israelis' continuing efforts to eradicate Palestinians from the area. In fact, Israel's continuing attacks on the Gazan Palestinians are the CAUSE of the Palestinians fighting in self-defense.
The Palestinian government's military power isn't equal to that of Israel in this matter and never has been. No Palestinian government has confiscated Israeli lands and homes and driven Israelis into a small no-exit zone with the support of the strongest military power in the world. Palestinians certainly haven't illegally occupied Israel for decades, Palestinians don't have an illegal blockade around Israel denying them food, water, medical aid, and electricity.
People fighting for their lives and their right to exist against a murderous bully determined to take their land and kill or drive them out are NOT terrorists. They simply are NOT.
Israel may not like the democratically-elected Hamas government of the Gaza Palestinians, but one can only recognize that the "radical" character of Hamas is reflective of the Palestinian need to defend itself against Israel's lawlessness. So the author is right in saying that if Israel manages to crush Hamas (and hundreds of Palestinians as "collateral damage") in this illegal attack, an even more militaristic radical group of Palestinians will grab the reins.
Yes, because the Palestinians fight fair.
The U.N. wasn't calling this a war crime in Yugoslavia...
And Iran is making death threats to a female Nobel Laureate.
That's probably because Hamas doesn't like it being safe.
No Palestinian government, but plenty of Arab governments.
Arafat's standard of living from the "donations" he embezzled was pretty high, too.
And it's doing a good job.
Your one-liner defenses of the Israeli government's attack on Gazan Palestinians are really pitiful -- disjointed irrelevant attempts at "gotcha" aren't worth the bandwidth. I don't know why you bothered. But I suppose that's all you can do to defend their monstrous actions.
All you can do to defend Hamas' monstrous actions is argue that they're actually well-intentioned, when there's nothing in their talking-points which suggests that's the case. After all, if the situation was in reverse, and they had the heavy fire-power, they wouldn't even be considering a cease-fire.
Projection. It doesn't matter what they MIGHT do. Reality is what counts.
That's the same argument the neo-cons used about invading Iraq.
WHAT's the same argument?
The neocons projected what they wanted the world to believe Iraq MIGHT do, just as you're projecting what you want the world to believe that Hamas MIGHT do. That's a futile position, meant to justify murderous aggression. Nobody knows what Hamas MIGHT do in other circumstances but we sure know what Israel's government is doing to Palestine, right now, in reality.
What I really cannot understand is, after all criminal behaviour of Israel in Gaza strip (targeting ambulances, schools with civilians, using fosfor bombs, shooting UN help-trucks etcetera), that US keeps on supporting Israel,no matter what they do. They are really committing war crimes by now and what is the answer of US: veto-ing or withholding every resolution and, even worse: I heard this morning about shipments of US ammunition (more than 3.000 tons!!!) to Israel!!! Why arming Israel and disarming Hamas? Why disarming one party and then blowing them up with disproportional violence.
US should be ashamed of themselves calling itselve a civlilized country! These are the things is why US are hated all over the world, still growing.
I hoped for 'change' by Obama, but he is silent about Middle East, while the death toll keeps rising every day.
Would building a huge tower with a neutron bomb hanging from it with each side given a button to detonate it help?
Maybe both sides would start worshiping it as their God or something ;)
(of course wire the buttons in series and not tell them that)
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