Obama's Gitmo Closure Plan: A Rose By Any Other Name?
By Cernig Monday Nov 10, 2008 5:00pm
The AP reports an officially unofficial leak from the Obama team that closing Gitmo is a priority for the new administration.
Under plans being put together in Obama's camp, some detainees would be released and many others would be prosecuted in U.S. criminal courts.
That's good. This bit isn't so good:
A third group of detainees — the ones whose cases are most entangled in highly classified information — might have to go before a new court designed especially to handle sensitive national security cases, according to advisers and Democrats involved in the talks. Advisers participating directly in the planning spoke on condition of anonymity because the plans aren't final.
U.S. courts handle cases "entagled in highly classified information" on a reasonably regular basis and the forms for dealing with such cases are well established. That phrase is a euphemism (or "lie", to the unsophisticated). Spencer Ackerman has it exactly right:
If there's anything the military commissions process should have taught, it's that reinventing the legal system doesn't work, as evidenced by the bevy of military lawyers who have resigned in protest of the commissions. The concern, stripped of euphemism, is that the evidentiary basis for many trials of Guantanamo detainees -- including, in many cases, torture -- would never be admissible in any court worthy of the name. That's the Bush administration's legacy. But it can't be the basis for cheapening our legal system.
So we'll wait to see what proposal actually emerges. But consider not only that this is one of the first initiatives that Obama is pursuing -- it's one of the first that he's leaking, as well. This is as clear a signal as can be sent that the Bush era isn't just over, it will be actively rolled back. How far it actually gets rolled back we'll have to wait and see. And pressure.
If the US cannot get convictions in either civil or military courts under the full panoply of law, even if those trials have to be held partially in camera to protect necessary national security secrets as provided for in law already, then the US has screwed the pooch and tainted those prosecutions indelibly with torture, illegal rendition and kangaroo justice. Under those circumstances even Hannibal Lecter would walk - and anyone who understands why these things are anathema to normal jurisprudence would say that was a good thing as a universal standard even if no-one would be happy about individual instances.
If the Obama administration cannot see that, then they will have made themselves complicit in the massive crime that the Bush administration has perpetrated through Gitmo, Bagram , Abu Graib, and a host of secret prisons and illegal torture flights. It doesn't matter whether travesties of justice are conducted on the mainland U.S., at the resort in Cuba or in some undisclosed location - they're still travesties of justice. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet and any "hybrid" having any relationship to Bush's rigged tribunals would stink just as highly.
Crossposted from Newshoggers
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Obama's Gitmo Closure Plan: A Rose By Any Other Name?
How about stink blossom?
uh...can we wait till then to start freaking out?
boy oh boy...libs sure do know how to cut off their own noses to spite their faces
lmfao.
On day one, drawn a line against perpetuating the war crimes.
If not, JOIN THE WAR CRIMINALS.
Here from CNN:
Read on…
Taylor was born in Boston and we have prosecuted him for torture. We damn well better prosecute the others, OUR OTHERS.
What is the standard here, we prosecute blacks but not whites?
The idea behind this is to actually discredit Bush, since any inevitable lack of evidence would just prove the worthlessness of his administration.
He's not a lawyer, despite his education.
He is a pol.
He will do what's needed to get re-elected.
Obama is a lawyer. He practiced as a civil rights attorney. He graduated from the Harvard Law school and even taught law.
Where will they imprison Cheney? Oh right. How much anyone wanna bet that in the name of "reaching out bipartisanship" the world is told, what is in the past is in the past and the nation is "moving on"? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, etc, should all be charged with very minimum of Crimes Against Humanity and all taken into custody pending a world tribunal.
With "MOVEON.ORG" on the 20th.
I'll ask the group what they think about your question of "moving on" from the "Crimes Against Humanity" criminality of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Co.
I'll report back to Crooks and Liars on the results of the meeting.
After all the deaths and everything else this administration has done, booting out the party is not enough. No grudge. No sour grapes. Just pure justice is necessary. These people killed hundreds of thousands. Two guys "threatened" the president elect and they can get up to 50 years in jail. These people should be looking at more.
Arlan Sphincter mug is truly a perplexing guy. Sometimes he gets it correct and sometimes he gets it so wrong.
C&L'ers - keep in mind if even one former GITMO inmate even gets ticket for double parking in Omaha it will be news 24/7 on FOX and hate radio for months!
This is a very risky deal. If one of these guys is released and god forbids kills anyone anywhere, well you remember Willie Horton....
And let it stand on the merits of both sides.
If there is some info that is actually a security threat to national security. Have them swear an oath of secrecy and go on with the trial.
The way things are, is intolerable. Something has to be done.
Give them a trial.
We knew Obama was everything to everybody. We knew it and yet the sense of hope he brought was too much to ignore. We will be disappointed. He will be Clintonesque. But this time the very hope that he inspired will encourage us to argue with him and pressure him to do the right thing. It does suck that in our system sometimes the guilty get set free and the innocent are lethally injected. The alternative is worse. The alternative doesn't care if you are guilty or not.
At this point we may have to acquit some of the worst of them. Then we'll have to be like cops. Track them back to their lair. watch them. Bust them when they do the next crime. That's the price we pay when we blow the case.
when you can prove how you can see into the future...then I will care about your predictions.
Is two lawyers a bevy?
I thought it was a frosted mug of beer.
For crying out loud. It hasn't been a week. The man isn't even president yet and the bitching begins. Sorry. Too f-in' soon.
Amen. Let the guy take the oath of office before the slamming starts. Jesus.
No it's not. It's never too early to speak up to see that justice is done. You can be sure the Conservative Opposition will be trying to sway Obama, if not to the Dark Side, then at least to the false "center" between wrong and abominable. No, he says he needs our help, so we at least have to remind him of the job he signed on to do.
a new cabinet post in the Obama Administration, the Secretary of Reminding Everyone That We Are A Nation Of Laws. This official would remain at the president's side at all times. When/if ugly facts about the former administration are revealed, and there is a temptation to sweep some of these facts under the rug, he would repeatedly remind our leaders that the chips must fall where they may: "We are a nation of laws. No one is above the law. We are a nation of laws. No one is above the law. We are a nation of laws . . "
By saying he's a war criminal when we don't even know precisely what he intends to do? Ahhh...no. That's not helpful. I'm not going to prejudge the man's intentions when they're not really known yet, nor am I going to call him a war criminal if he doesn't do precisely what I what him to do.
At the very least, Obama is concerned with Gitmo and will be making plans to close it. It is going to take years to undo all that Bush has done. Let me say that again. IT'S GOING TO TAKE YEARS TO UNDO ALL THAT BUSH HAS DONE.
ANY start is a good thing, even if it's not exactly what we would have wanted. Just keep writing letters, and making phone calls and we will eventually get our way, however we shouldn't be damning Obama because in his first week as president-ELECT (note, he's not even the president yet) he hasn't closed Gitmo and sent everyone home....
2 things:
1 - there are in fact some complicated scenarios requiring that we continue to scrutinize some Gitmo detainees. here's an analogy. go to 4chan.org - click on /b/ - and hit F5 a little bit. wait for some disgusting and rare child porn to show up.
to use an analogy, we detained the guy who posted that child porn. he got it directly from someone, who kidnapped a kid and filmed something gross.
that guy's not coughing up the kidnapper. so we need to keep asking him questions. only - thats just an analogy. we're not talking about child porn, we're talking about Islamic cult fringe freaks who want to see peace-loving folks like all of you posting on here, dead.
the fact is, there is an ugly Islamic-like cult out there not unlike skinheads, who hates me, and Bush, and all of you - equally - and we need to continue to hunt them down.
***
2 - a lot of the detainees got themselves twisted up in unfortunate circumstances. they come from countries with a really nasty approach (or should I say "disregard") for human rights. we can't just release 'em and toss 'em back into Saudi Arabia and presume they'll be hunky dory by this time next Thursday.
its unfortunate, but our stupid president and PNAC circle jerkers have a lot of GITMO detainees on their hands that we simply can't release. it would be an in-humanitarian move on our part. and after several years of torture from the hands of American citizens, its not like those guys exactly want to become Americans themselves now, right?
***
President-elect Obama has a nasty mess to clean up with GITMO, and there are some situations where we simply can't let some people walk out. it would result in murder of either more Americans, and/or murder of the detainees.
[Deleted. You are done posting at this site]
What did you do this time.
Hmmmm? chuckles?
good posts muddy !keep em flying!
Back to the Niners.
Can you believe it, we actually showed up.:)
For mentioning the oft-unacknowledged tension between universal standards and individual cases.
Yes, an excellent post. Those
hostagesPOWs"detainees" didn't ask to be there, they were put there by our country, and our country is responsible for their safety. And if some of the guilty have to walk free, you don't blame the "liberal" judges, you don't blame the juries, you don't blame our Constitution, you blame the incompetent prosecutors and the tainted process. And if some of those people kill again, the blame goes to Bush and Cheney who insisted on playing by the bad guy rules.i agree whole heartedly
Obama should also give Guantanamo Bay back to the Cubans. It's basically an illegal occupation of a part of their island.
I still have confidence in what Howard Zinn says about Obama's administration.
I'd love to see what this embarrassing fiasco cost us American taxpayers from Day One to present juxtaposed with how many actual terrorists were found and convicted.
If they, Obama's admin, dot all their I's and cross all their T's and this is just the tip of the iceberg as for their intentions with Gitmo then, perhaps, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet and Obama's team will see and smell the "hybrid" relationship to Bush's rigged tribunals and realize that it will stink just as highly.
Let us hope it is to be so...
.
So, It's up to the Obama Administration to wipe clean and right the wrongs of the Bush Administration? If Obama played his cards right, he'll press charges AGAINST the members of the Bush Administration that set this country up for failure in it's role in this war of terrorism so that he can properly prosecute this war.
... But at this point, it's just an "IF"!
.
Now Bush/Cheney will be charged with War Crimes unless Obama pardons them. The rest of the Bush Administration will be charged and go to jail. Now even if Obama pardons Bush/Cheney the United Nation will charge the Bush Administration with War Crimes and Crimes Agaisnt Humanity. At lease 7 of the detainees in Gitmo have been tortured so much their now insane. People have been tortured, killed and raped at Gitmo and the Bush Administration will pay for their crimes.
But wonderful news. This has been, in my humble opinion, the biggest blight on American credibility.
Hear hear. I second, third, fourth and fifth ya.
And them blast them to smithereens with a ray gun. (post on YouTube)
(got posted in the wrong place--- see new Cabinet position comment, "we are a nation of laws.")
Nothing says pinnacle of political evolution in democracy like kidnapping people from the streets of the world and torturing them in secret prisons, above and beyond any laws, domestic or international. Know what I mean?
you were 17. You didn't want to go to war. You were a mama's boy.
you were drafted. You were deathly afraid of saddam. you know you're a pawn. you got captured. you don't know where you are. You're traumatized night and day. You're probably mental deficient because of the trauma. you don't know whether your parents are dead or alive. close it already.
I'm not thrilled by the evolution of secret courts, they're not unique (the FISA court has been around for years). While there's a perfectly good argument to be made against it, consider some other uses it may have. Oliver North and John Poindexter avoided long prison sentences the same way many others have. As soon as you're indicted, demand secret agents and spy satellite photos be produced and claim they're essential to your defense. The gov't will say we can't possibly hand those over for national security reasons, the court dismisses the case because the gov't refuses to comply with the discovery demand. It's a slick, and frustrating, tactic that essentially makes anyone with access to classified material immune from prosecution. If, for instance, Dick Cheney should find himself charged with a crime, he would pick something Obama couldn't possibly make public and claim his defense rested on that. I'd expect Blackwater employees to try the same thing.
No idea how this scheme might work or how other constitutional rights would be ensured, but if it's also available for these incredibly frustrating national security cases, I'd be willing to give it a second look.
Not for the faint of heart...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC1_ugaUAOs&fm...
Please let President-elect Obama and your members of Congress know how you feel! I did!
Dear President-elect Obama,
cc: Senator Leahy and Senator Sanders
We have had the courts and the system to try criminals for over 200 years!!! We have absolutely NO need for any new courts or systems!!! All we need is a government that obeys the laws of the United States of America!!! We have NOT had one of those for the past 8 years! If we actually get a government willing to obey our laws in January then they will do what should have been done 7 years ago and try criminals under criminal law. It's all really rather plain and simple. What people who believe otherwise have done is fall for the bush administration lies that our legal system did not work and that only using illegal dictorial powers could be used. That criminality of the bush administration almost destroyed this nation. NO MORE!! From now on we MUST return to being a nation that respects our own laws! The detentions at Guantánamo were and are a direct violation of the rules of war as outlined in FM27-10. Those responsible for the creation and continuence of Guantánamo prison should and really must be tried as well as the inmates there who have any actual evidence against them.
A phrase appears in this piece - "scewed the pooch" . . .
I don't know if this is a typo - screwed the pooch?
Or a mispelling of "scewed" which should be "skewed"?
And, if it is "skewed the pooch", plz advz as to what it means...or even if it's "screwed the pooch".
[Thanks for the silly message about the typo. I passed it along-Sitemonitor]
a handful will get to the U.S. , prosecuted by some contrived kangaroo court, where the prosecution will hide behind " national security" the rest will be thrown in the hole of floating prison, operated by the navy and the bottom line is , most if not all will be illegally held , tortured by the act of justice withheld and some giddy reaction from the left by Guantanamo closing ,will be the headline ,whoopee and i said it without cutting off my nose, to spite my face .
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