Have Gun, Will Travel
By Cliff Schecter Tuesday Jul 21, 2009 3:30pmFrom Bowling for Columbine (2002)
There goes the steadfast and dripping-with-integrity GOP and Blue Dog Dems once again. Tomorrow at noon, we get the Thune Amendment--as in John Thune from South Dakota--which assaults both the federalism they cherish in rhetoric and the common sense we cherish post-Enlightenment. The Thune Amendment would make it so a concealed-carry permit handed out in any state would be good in any state that has concealed carry.
So Texas will determine you gun laws. Next up, Utah decides who you can marry, Mississippi decides whether or not you have the death penalty and Kansas decides where church stops and state begins. And to the denizens of those fine states who are progressive, please take no offense, you know I am with you in spirit. I am talking state politics here (I live in Ohio, and wouldn't want to export our gun laws to my state of birth, New York). And this means that if your state is one of 31 that requires some form of gun-safety course before you get to carry a concealed weapon, forget about that. If your state is one of 35 who think that misdemeanors, such as, oh, having previously carried a concealed gun illegally, should prevent you from getting a permit, too bad. If your state thinks habitual alcohol abusers perhaps shouldn't be afforded this right, as 31 states do, so sorry Charlie.
On record against Mr. Thune's legislative loophole are mayors of all stripes, more than 450 of them, or those for whom gun violence is up close and personal, and they are appalled at this Washington GOP power grab. But hey, torture, Gitmo and proposed amendments to ban abortion and gay marriage don't quite live up to the "state's rights" mantra now either, do they...
States and localities should have the right to make their own gun laws. My son should have the right to go into a school where AKs are not present. And a group of wavering Senators need to hear how you feel about this usurping of our rights. Call, be polite, and say hi to these folks. Remind them that you don't want Texas' gun laws...
Those whose minds need to be changed
Bayh (D IN) 202-224-5623
Bennet (D CO) (202) 224-5852
Collins (R ME) (202) 224-2523
Conrad (D ND) (202) 224-2043
Feingold (D WI) 202/224-5323
Hagan (D NC) 202-224-6342
Landrieu (D LA) (202)224-5824
Lincoln (D AR) (202) 224-4843
McCain (R- AZ) (202) 224-2235
McCaskill (D – MO) (202) 224-6154
Pryor (D-AR) (202) 224-2353
Reid (D – NV) 202-224-3542
Snowe (R – ME) (202) 224-5344
Specter (D – PA) 202-224-4254
Udall (D – NM) 202-224-6621
Udall (D – CO) 202-224-5941
Voinovich (R- OH) (202) 224-3353
Warner (D – VA) 202-224-2023
Webb (D –VA) 202-224-4024
Those we must hold:
Kohl (D – WI) (202) 224-5653
Klobuchar (D – MN) 202-224-3244
Nelson (D - FL) 202-224-5274
Two notes: First, the vote is at noon Wednesday (as in tomorrow), so call early and often (and be nice!). Second, full disclosure, I have been hired to work with Mayors Against Illegal Guns (mayorsagainstillegalguns.org) on this effot, and couldn't be happier or more passionate about it.
Update: Keep the calls coming tomorrow morning to weak-kneed Dems and "moderate" Republicans. McCaskill and Specter have already caved.
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This "my stick is bigger than yours" mentality is beyond odd. The total obsession with guns in the US, amuses the rest of the world. US citizens seem hellbent on the right to bear arms, like that has had any positive effect on the fleecing the political elite continue to do daily. Why do Americans need all these guns anyway? Afraid of each other AND the world? Is it like a security blanket?
It is a means of last resort.
Without the right to bare arms, all of our other rights mean nothing as they are unenforceable. No government is exempt from corruption, this is our check to balance the system.
When was the last time US soil was invaded by a foreign standing army? Just food for thought.
What about bare legs? It's hot outside!
;)
I remember a commercial like that...
there's always totally bare, fiver!
;)
... that marriage certificates from one state shouldn't be honored by another state that doesn't want to, yet concealed carry permits should be so honored?
Or visa versa?
Marriage certificates shouldn't be honored at all!
They are a religious institution, the government has not place to be there.
(yes not a smart idea) that you are referring to gay marriages.
This is actually the same if a state allows carry for its citizens it has to allow carry for non-citizens. If they do not allow carry for their citizens they do not have to allow it for non citizens.
... it's just a matter of who gets to carry and who doesn't.
do not allow concealed carry, IL and WI.
... but I know law enforcement officers in Illinois, active and retired, are authorized to carry concealed weapons.
(And, of course, anybody with a significant connection to Richie Daly) ;)
active and retired can carry almost anywhere under federal law. Airport secure zones/aircraft, federal buildings, and military property are about the only places they can't.
And the only carry permit that IL issues is for security personnel, which allows carry while working and 1/2 hr before and after, but only if they are directly on their way to or from work.
The ones with a significant connection to Daly don't get a carry permit, they become special reserve officers, they get a badge and can carry a firearm but virtually no other police powers. Which happens all over, my son's uncle has/had one from Lake Co IN.
These are the same conservative asshats that, in another era, would've worn white hoods (today they just don't wear 'em as much) and ranted about "states' rights" (to own slaves, e.g.)
....but now think that "states' rights" don't exist when the topic is gun laws, emission standards, and marriage laws.
So this Thune Amendment is saying that a man from Texas can come to PA and he is protected by Texas laws when it comes to guns? Am I reading this correctly?
local laws apply.
Think of it like driving. PA gives you a drivers licence. and Texas trusts Pennsylvania to licence only qualified drivers but you still gotta follow local Texas traffic laws...
I am a gun owner, i am a family man and a tech business owner and i like to go to the indoor gun range every now and then and shoot the targets for a couple of hours, it is my golf. Today I decided i wanted to go to the range, at the moment it is almost impossible to buy bullets. Three places including the range did not have any ammo for my gun which is not an unusual round.
From what a gun dealer tells me, Obama has caused mass panic within the gun owner community and everyone is buying all the bullets. After investigation I realize this is true, perhaps it may be the economy and a coincidence that it all happened at the time Obama got into Office though it does not change the facts. It is hard to buy bullets.
Why is this so and what is the panic.
- JJ
Point out to us one piece of legislation where Obama says he's going to take your gun. Just one. It's fear propagated by the extreme right and the NRA and this fear has murdered three Pittsburgh police officers. Have your bullets but use them on yourself.
I don't think the previous poster was making a correlation between Obama and taking people's guns away. Chill dude...
Did you read this part?
"From what a gun dealer tells me, Obama has caused mass panic within the gun owner community and everyone is buying all the bullets. After investigation I realize this is true, perhaps it may be the economy and a coincidence that it all happened at the time Obama got into Office though it does not change the facts. It is hard to buy bullets.
Why is this so and what is the panic."
Certainly sounds like it.
Obama caused mass panic by allowing himself to be elected.
when he was born in Russia, or North Korea or wherever, Kenya maybe and immediately faked a birth certificate and had it placed in the public record of Hawaii.
His fatal flaw however was to not have the foresight to produce something called 'the long form,' and seems to have lost his ability to fake one in the present day.
Not so super after all Mr President. Those birthers have you over a barrel!!!
He's the president, he could easily have a fake one made if he wanted, much like the chinese did for the olympics.
Or should I say the Beck's the Limbaugh's and the Malkin's. AKA. your brain.
You are making personal attacks on me including suggesting i shoot myself because i can not buy a particular product in a store. No matter if your left or right , black or white dude. ( gump ) Stop being a prat.
btw - i still can not find any .:..: .:. ;).
JJ
The last comment was at Loonie. A little full of yourself?
I'm a little puzzled. The only way your comment could have made sense as a reply to my post would be that the sarcasm had flown over your head.
Perhaps it is you that needs to follow the... whatever it was that was being incorrectly followed.
Because I can not buy any bullets. Leave my daughter of 7 without a father and my wife of 12 years without a husband and you speak about the extreme right and fear.
BTW - Bullets are still hard to find, Walmart did not even have any.
If you're saying what I think you're saying, I don't think this is an appropriate forum.
You think he's talking suicide or something?
At least your daughter will be able to grow up with a sane role model.
rampaging bands of negroes set on avenging 300 years of white oppression, mostly, I 'speck...
You can buy ammo off the Internets. I keep a bunch around for Zombie attacks. The gun dealers are ALWAYS talking about how Hillary and now Obama are gunna take 'er Gunz, so buy this AK47 now, while you still can!! They've been singing that song for years. It moves product... Obama is too smart to commit political suicide so don't worry.
There is NO WAY we'll run out of ammo. Ever. You can still buy WWII surplus ammo. You can even load your own.
Why did this post 4 times?!
[Because teh internets are stupid? This was an issue yesterday, too. Something to do with routing, I think. Our tech staff has been contacted. Please remain calm. Thank you. Site Monitor]
Here in Ca I noticed the prices for the .303 British and 7.62x54R went up a little too. Same with the overall prices of firearms. Two years ago I picked up a Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I for $250 including Ca tax, yesterday I was just looking at prices at the same store and I ran into another Lee Enfield of the same type in the same condition for nearly $100 more. The Mausers there also seem to have gone up in price too.
I don't get the panic either, I never really thought firearms was a huge concern for Obama, it was always health care reform that was at the forefront of his campaign. Did this same freak out occur when Bill Clinton was elected?
on the list of folks that need encouragement to oppose this measure.
He's a true back-bencher, a "loyal" footsoldier. I con't imagine he'sinvolved in something that isn't already a done deal, if there any controversy.
So I'll call him in the morning...
…is Feingold doing on that list?!
Sorry, but it isn't exactly legal to conceal an AK...in any state
You are forgetting that the kind of person that would break the law with an illegally concealed weapon are the kind that want to actually use them to hurt someone.
Let the people that take the tests and pass then be allowed to conceal where they want. CCW permit owners have the lowest incidence of gun crime of any demographic, because they legally have to have a reason and pass tests to get it. They respect the permit once they finally get it, because they have to go through more than most police officers to get one (why you trust a police officer more than someone with a CCW is beyond me, they are people just like any).
which would be a lot easier...
you would have a literal civil war if that happened
to own as many black-powder, muzzle-loaded fire-arms as they can carry.
Buy your own lead. Every plumbing store will have some. Make your own powder save your urine for the urea...
I mean, you're an originalist, right?
SCOTUS covered this in the Heller v DC case. Its comparable to saying you only have the right of free speech in regards to handwritten or manual printing presses or telegraph which is what they had back then. Or your right to unreasonable searches and seizures does not apply to cars.
ETA what would I need to save my own urine for? I can get everything I need to make black powder from my local walmart/hardware/garden supply store. Well not quite I would need to make the charcoal since standard bbq charcoal does not work as well. There are only 3 ingredients and one of them is not technically necessary it just lowers the ignition point. And buy lead pipe? You must be joking, hit up the local tire store and get wheel weights, or the Dentist/DR. for the lead foil backing from X-rays, heck of a lot cheaper.
... but that's not the point. The point is to stoke the culture war, and it can easily be stoked from the Right or the Left.
The Establishment loves the culture war because it divides the 98% of the population that the Establishment screws on a daily basis. Divide and keep conquered.
Why worry about your disappearing pension when theres a social issue to occupy your mind?
Hey! Did you hear Ann Coulter said something bad?
"You are forgetting that the kind of person that would break the law with an illegally concealed weapon are the kind that want to actually use them to hurt someone."
Or some drunk guy who walks into a bar. Or a scorned spouse a little pissed off. Or maybe some guy just a step away from the edge. Or a few college students that were "just messing around". Or some guy who's been watching 36 hours of Beck, Hannity and listening to Limbaugh.
You watch tv too much kiddo.
Guns aren't allowed in bars.
All those people can get guns illegally if they really wanted to, besides, guns may make a loud noise, buy knifes are way scarier and easier to get.
do allow carry into bars, mine being one of them. But if a state didn't want it, they do not have to allow it. My state license is honored in 24 states, and I have to follow the laws of the state that I am in.
It is to get a CCL in some states? In Ca unless you're a cop, retired cop, judge or lawyer, it is next to impossible for you to get a CCL in this state. Even if you were honorably discharged from the military it's still hard. I'm a law student who lives near Compton, who owns several rifles and never had an incident with them, and I still can't get one. In Ca if you're just some punk-ass college student who likes to "mess around" you can forget about even bothering to apply for one.
In some states getting a CCL isn't like getting a driver's license.
I ride the Subway in NYC every day with 2 million other people. This is no place to experiment. The last thing we want here are people with concealed weapons. I don't care how sane they are or what tests they took. Come here and live in this rat race for a few years and you might want to shoot someone.
Rarely, people snap. When you have millions of them together the chances increase. I'll all for people's right to bear arms but I don't want to be hit by some mad taxi driver's stray bullet.
I know of at least one state where it is legal to conceal a AK or any other long gun(not sure how you'd do it except for maybe a loose trench coat but still legal), or carry it openly if you wish. And you do not even need a permit to do so, as long as it doesn't have a pistol grip without a shoulder stock.
I have to agree with the spirit of this bill. I certainly am not a right winger but I do support the right to bear arms. I have seen to many times when somebody with a concealed weapon has saved innocent lives, cops cannot be everywhere at once. I believe Obama when he says he will not take away our weapons. As a military veteran and a owner of a handgun (with a concealed weapons permit), and somebody who lives right on the border of Virginia and North Carolina I believe I should have the right to cross the border with my weapon.
I have a constitutional right to have my weapon and I believe this bill is in keeping with that. Now don't get me wrong I am not out stocking up on ammo because I think Obama is going to take my weapon I don't believe that at all. And I think that these people who make these ballot box bullet box statements are psychos that are are the verge of treason. But as Obama said on the issue of abortions, we can disagree on an issue but still work together towards common goals.
Keep guns out of establishments that serve alcohol, that is common sense. Keep guns out of the hands of violent felons, make gun safety classes mandatory for anybody who wants to own a gun. There are common sense provisions that no sane person gun rights supporters included could object to. I think that is where we need to go, find the common ground.
As a military veteran and a owner of a handgun (with a concealed weapons permit), and somebody who lives right on the border of Virginia and North Carolina I believe I should have the right to cross the border with my weapon.
You have the Constitutional right to own a muzzle-loading, black-power fired fire-arm, and/or a sword, a knife or knives, a hatchet/tomahawk, such being the normally available complement of the "arms" a citizen possessed the Constitutional right to bear.
Your an originalist, right?
Knock yourself out...
No I am not an originalist, I don't support slavery (which was allowed under the original constitution). I actually find your statement rather offensive as my sister in law and uncle are black and I have mixed race cousins and a mixed race nephew. I like how you equate support of the second amendment to racism, real classy. I simply support the right of private citizens to bear arms. If you disagree that is of course your right but I will ask you not to make a judgment of all my values because of my stance on an unrelated subject. If you want to know my stance on issues I certainly invite you to ask but please don't assume, that is incredibly rude.
Now seeing as the constitution has not been changed (as it has been several times in the past as times have changed) as new weapons were developed I hold the right to bear arms as they are today. If the founding fathers intended to restrict the right to bear arms as they were in that present time I believe they would have specified "The right to bear muskets" or something to that effect. Now I would ask you not to insult me or make asinine leaps of "logic" that if I support being able to cross the border with my legally registered weapon that I want to "chase rogue negros".
For deleting his offensive comment.
According to you, the contents of your car is not protected under the 4th Amendment because cars didn't exist in the 1700s?
Go put another quarter in the machine and try again there buddy...
I'd be surprised if she was for idiot gun laws. She's a prosecuting attorney. They see more useless deaths to guns than anyone except cops.
and their love of guns? Really...it's simply an absurdity to so many of us in other countries.
The incredible amount of gun violence in your country, including much of it domestic, seems either to elude you or possibly is something you consider to be an 'unfortunate by-product' of the greater 'good'.
My word, how on earth do those of us outside of the U.S. go through our daily lives without 'ever' considering owning a gun?
I have to travel to the U.S. in the near future and I must tell you, this will be the only time (in my somewhat long life) that I will be thinking about being afraid of gun violence.
... created by those who wish to limit gun possession to Establishment interests. Of course, in a nation of over 300,000,000 people, the caricature creators can always find some examples of loonytune gun nuts.
However, most supporters of Second Amendment rights hardly fit the caricature but are instead stable, law abiding people - on both the Left and the Right.
Would you feel better if George W. Bush and Blackwater had a monopoly on firearms? That concept scares the hell out of me and it is largely behind my support of Second Amendment rights.
As far as being afraid of gun violence on a visit to the U.S., that is a rather silly fear in comparison to other threats. For example, you will be in far more danger of being killed in a car accident or as the result of health care malpractice than you will be from gun violence. Each claims the lives of ten times as many people as gun violence.
America really isn't all that much like it's shown on television.
I have lived in the U.S., I would offer no opinions unless I had something to go on.
Of course, I would not 'feel better if Georgie...blah, blah, blah...rather an extreme comparison.
Silly fear, eh...perhaps not so much considering my encounters on an everyday basis here would for the most part be with 'no one' who is carrying a gun.
There is always the danger of a car accident...oh yes, I know that one well, lost my mother to that many years ago, I am certainly aware of those 'stats'...and of course, there are many other ways I could perish...I certainly didn't say that gun violence overrode those perils we face.
I simply put forth that in my country I do not have to include worrying about so many weapons being carried by so many people.
By the way, I don't watch television...way too much crap to stomach.
I took your comment that you would fear gun violence for the first time to mean you were visiting the U.S. for the first time.
And I must say, Canada is far superior to the U.S. in many respects - the two most relevant to this issue that I see are a meaningful social safety net resulting in dramatically lower crime rates and a government quite a bit further from a totalitarian nightmare than the U.S.
Unfortunately, I was born in a country with plenty of guns and plenty of crime (though not nearly as much as we are led to believe). I've also watched as protection after protection has been whittled away from the citizenry all in the name of making us safer. It has not made us any safer but has resulted in a higher concentration of power.
I don't trust my government, and don't believe I have been given much reason to. This is true from the debacle of George W. Bush on down to the local level (whether is the Chicago Police Department and a decades long practice of "widespread and systematic torture," Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his bigots with badges, or taser happy police all over the country).
The police in the U.S. not only have no legal duty to protect the citizenry, they are often a source of danger to the community. I don't trust them with a monopoly on firearms nor do I believe they are deserving of that trust.
The argument about gun control in the U.S. is not and has never been about getting rid of all the guns. It is solely about who gets to keep them and who does not.
This, at least in my case and in many others, is not about a "love" of guns. It is about self protection and a check on government power.
BTW I'm definitely with you on TV. I moved to a place with no reception and no cable. After putting off satelite television for a number of months, I realized I was much better off without it.
for replying...and hey, no apology necessary.
You don't know me from 'adam', as they say...so you didn't know where I was coming from. (I take it you haven't seen my many comments on C&L on the healthcare debate...I'm quite compassionate that Americans deserve so much more than the crumbs they are being fed by the corporate pocket-liners.)
Nothing about any serious issue is easy nor cut & dried...I'm sure the whole gun thing is quite complex & certainly varies around the country.
It is a sad situation that ordinary people feel the need to arm themselves, not only against the criminal element, but also to protect themselves from abuses from the powers that be.
An aside...I am so very looking forward to reuniting with the wonderful friends I made while living in the States...bound for a 40th year high school reunion...how scary & exciting is that?
Hope you have a great trip.
GN
The guns are out there...
You are never getting them back.
Stop!
We must win the hearts and minds of the fearfull..
You people who live in FEAR are setting off the FEAR in those you FEAR..
Stop!!
The people with pistol permits had to go through background checks... you seem a lot more concerned about them than you do all the people that are carrying illegally. You know... the murders, rapists, drug dealers, etc. God forbid someone that had to go through background checks carry a pistol into your state... OH... MY... GOD! LOL!
I love how you end your post with the bit about the AK47s in your sons school...
hilarious.
Seriously, I agree with your point about the Fed government not mandating reciprocity to all the states. That is something the states should opt into on their own with each other, if they want to... which many do already.
But when I see posts on this blog crying about states rights I have to roll my eyes. Most posters here seem to be all for federal mandates, federal spending, federal whatever...
They should make my Oregon State issued Medical Marijuana card valid in the other states.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Every "gun law" is of itself a form of "infringement". Banning is the ultimate infringement, but permits, licenses, partial bans, regulations, etc etc are also infringements. This amendment was specifically aimed at keeping the state a "Free State", as quoted, assuming that the amendment would give the general population the ability to stop the government by force of arms should it become tyrannical. Of course, the Founding Fathers did not anticipate the advent of automatic weapons, airplanes, tanks, submarines, nukes, flamethrowers, and all the rest of that. To quote another hallowed American document
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"
I am in my shop. There is a .45 automatic in my desk drawer. Almost every business and shop near me has been robbed over the past couple of years. Calling the police after-the-fact is useless. I will "keep and bear arms" and defend what is mine, and be thankful that I have that right. Thankfully we are not yet looking at a "long train of abuses", although at times it sure seems that way.
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