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Ali Noorani of the National Immigration Forum was on The O'Reilly Factor last night with substitute host Laura Ingraham, talking about the coming battle over immigration.

Ingraham, predictably, dismissed the key component of immigration-reform plans -- creating a path for citizenship for those immigrants already here -- as "amnesty". Cluestick to Ingraham: Since when is paying an appropriate fine for a civil violation -- which is what having illegal-immigrant status is in under our current laws -- "amnesty"? Because that's what the current plans call for.

Ingraham, though, wants all of those illegals to go back home first before they can get back in line. Noorani, fortunately, was able to point out the utter impracticality of that idea.

So Ingraham tried yet another tack: Why should we let all these undocumented workers into the workforce when we're suffering massive unemployment right now?

But that argument is predicated on the notion that immigrants "take jobs away from Americans" -- which is indeed a fundamental flaw. As Cristina Jimenez at The American Prospect pointed out a few months back, comprehensive immigration reform in fact "is a cost-effective path to short-term stimulus and long-term recovery":

Under current law, undocumented workers are at the mercy of employers to the same extent that unprotected native-born workers were before the union victories of the 1930s. Distance from those historic triumphs makes it easy to forget that when immigrants and non-immigrants are equally empowered, job quality improves and wages rise, because the common interests of immigrants and non-immigrants become much stronger than the artificial conditions that divide them. Today, as in the past, cooperation and coalition-building would benefit all immigrants and native-born Americans trying to work their way into the middle class.

The Immigration Policy Center [PDF file] explains (in a reform plan written for members of Congress):

In this economic downturn, many may argue that immigration reform is not a priority. However, reforming our broken immigration system is an important part of improving our economy. Currently, unscrupulous employers are able to exploit undocumented workers and create unfair competition by violating labor laws and paying sub-minimal wages. This is harmful to U.S. businesses and U.S. workers. Our immigration system needs to work for all Americans, not just for those employers looking for low-cost labor. We need to recognize that it would be far better if immigrant workers were here legally and could exercise the same rights on the job as native-born workers. Leveling the playing field for both workers and employers by legalizing all workers and enforcing labor laws against bad-apple employers will eliminate unfair competition and improve the wages and working conditions of all workers. Putting immigrant workers in the formal economy and higher wages will increase tax revenues and consumption.

And there's also the reality about just what niches in the economy immigrants and native-born workers fill:

“Immigrants and natives tend to differ in their educational attainment, skill sets, and occupations, and they perform jobs that often are interdependent. As a result, immigrants do not compete with the majority of natives for the same jobs. Rather, they ‘complement’ the native-born workforce—which increases the productivity, and therefore the wages, of natives… During the 1990-2004 period, the 90 percent of native-born workers with at least a high-school diploma experienced wage gains from immigration that ranged from 0.7 percent to 3.4 percent depending on education.”

-- Giovanni Peri, Associate Professor of Economics, University of California, Davis

The data also bears this out:

Opponents of immigration reform frequently argue that immigrants “take” jobs away from many native‐born workers, especially during economic hard times. If this is true, then one would expect to find high unemployment rates in those parts of the country with large numbers of immigrants—especially immigrants who have come to the United States recently and, presumably, are more willing to work for lower wages and under worse conditions than either long‐term immigrants or native‐born workers. Yet an analysis of data from the U.S. Census Bureau clearly reveals that this is not the case. In fact, there is little apparent relationship between recent immigration and unemployment rates at the regional, state, or county level.

Nonetheless, in spite of these realities, there's a political reality as well: moderate Democrats are still scared waaaay too easily by the right-wing nativist mouthpieces whose flying monkeys descended upon Congress in 2007 and effectively killed immigration reform -- by calling it "amnesty". Which no doubt is why it's the first word out of the mouths of people like Laura Ingraham and Lou Dobbs when they discuss reform.

The L.A. Times has a report on how the White House is moving immigration reform forward, but with a certain amount of caution -- since it's their assessment that the votes just aren't there yet:

The biggest obstacle to speedy passage of a citizenship plan, according to interviews with lawmakers and Capitol Hill strategists, is the House. Democrats hold a wide majority there, but at least 40 members represent moderate or conservative swing districts with few Latino voters where legalization plans are unpopular and often derided as "amnesty" for lawbreakers.

"This a very, very difficult issue," said Rep. Jason Altmire, a Democrat elected in 2006 from rural western Pennsylvania. "The Democratic Party is doing everything they can to capture this very fast-growing community, and I understand that. But I'm not in that camp. I made it clear that I was going to take a very hard line on this, and my district takes a hard line."

The White House has downplayed expectations for next week's meeting. According to Latino lawmakers who met with Obama this spring, the president had indicated that he would host a summit with lawmakers and advocacy groups, just as he did with healthcare leaders when he kicked off the debate on that front-burner issue. Instead, the immigration event will be small and private and will include only House and Senate members involved in the immigration debate.

Moreover, the White House is careful to point out that Obama wants to merely begin the debate this year. He is not promising that a plan will be passed this year, although in his campaign he said he would make the issue "a top priority in my first year as president."

Since then, Obama has made it clear that he has two primary legislative goals for the year -- a healthcare overhaul and a global warming bill. Both proposals are already putting many swing-district Democrats in a political bind.

What should immigration reform look like? The Immigration Policy Center has a sound approach:

First and foremost, the United States needs a legal immigration system that secures our borders, strengthens our economy, and supports our communities: The most practical and realistic way to reduce undocumented immigration dramatically is to bring U.S. immigration policy in line with economic and social realities. Lawmakers should require undocumented immigrants already living in the United States to apply for legal status and devise immigration policies that are responsive to labor demands and ensure fair wages and good working conditions for all workers, both native and foreign-born. Finally, lawmakers should address the delays and restrictions that impose unreasonably long waiting times on hardworking families seeking to join close loved ones in the U.S.

The AFL-CIO has some suggestions as well:

[I]mmigration reform must fully protect U.S. workers, reduce the exploitation of immigrant workers and reduce employers’ incentive to hire undocumented workers rather than U.S. workers. The most effective way to do that is for all workers -- immigrant and native-born -- to have full and complete access to the protection of labor, health and safety and other laws. Comprehensive immigration reform must complement a strong, well-resourced and effective labor standards enforcement initiative that prioritizes workers’ rights and workplace protections. This approach will ensure that immigration does not depress wages and working conditions or encourage marginal low-wage industries that depend heavily on substandard wages, benefits and working conditions.

This seems so sound and reasonable that, of course, we can be sure that movement conservatives and their affiliated nativists will adamantly oppose it.

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27 Comments

laura ingraham is a hoe?


Diabolus est Deus Inversus

friend and former first Republican Texas Governor since Reconstruction:

Clements Vetos Bill to Outlaw Short Hoes

Bill Clements was the SMU Board Chair who approved hush money payments to the football team, in addition to liking a variety of sizes.


"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator

As immigrants are returning in large numbers to their native countries in the wake of the shrinking job market.
BTW, I wouldn't call Altmire a Congressman from "rural western Pennsylvania." While there are some rural areas and farms in his district, the 4th Congressional District could better be described as suburban areas of Pittsburgh. New Castle, Beaver Falls and Tarentum are not "rural."

Ix Chel's picture

That some people are foolish enough to believe that tough immigration laws are the reason they are returning. They are truly duped into believing that these people come for welfare. The reason they are returning is the tough economic crisis. They figure if they are going to not have a job they may as well go and suffer through the crisis with their family in their countries.

capnmike's picture

My wife is a recent immigrant from Venezuela. We went through the whole schmear with the Immigration Department, like people are SUPPOSED to do. She's legal. Now we are trying to enroll her in some English courses given here by the local PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. She has been denied a place in the classes due to them being "full". We happen to KNOW that at least 3 people taking this course are here illegally. So not only are we paying for them to go to these classes with our tax dollars, but they are crowding out people who have a legal right to be here.
Illegals DO take away from people who are here legally! And "amnesty" makes all our hard work to do this in the right way into a travesty.

Why the need to put her in a free class if you make sufficient income. You had to prove your income so pay for her courses instead of trying to get a free class. The argument that illegal immigrants refuse to learn English seems to be disproven in your analysis, but it isn´t just illegal immigrants enrolling. There is a shortage all over the place for the classes either paid for or free. I used to teach ESOL classes and there is a huge shortage of teachers and large waiting lists in both sectors. They actually don´t take away, because you forget that they pay those taxes that you pay as well.
You also forget that you gave your wife a way into this country legally...something that most illegal immigrants do not have the benefit of. My husband went through the process legally as well...but I still recognize how difficult that process was and why most people don´t qualify for the process.

Teddy Phufner's picture

Here's a perfect example of the wingnut punditry's barely veiled racism at play. People from the EU Ms Ingraham? Are people from the EU recruited heavily and rounded up by US employers to do low paying (illegally low paying in many cases) jobs? Are people from the EU demonized as criminals and disease-spreading subhumans?
The fact is US employers and our conservative pro-business government's lack of enforcement of labor violations are responsible for the influx of immigration. The US wants Mexico's economy to suffer as bottomfeeders from policies like NAFTA to supply low wage workers.
So we should disrupt and in many cases destroy the lives of hard working good people by making them go home? Disgusting.

Different Anonymous's picture
.

Leaving aside illegal immigrants for a moment I would say that a compelling case can be made to eliminate the majority of H1B visas that are being granted. We now have more than sufficient supply of Americans that are now "willing" to do the jobs they "weren't" willing to do during the bubbles.

There is absolutely no reason to keep issuing these scab visas any longer. Occasionally it would be nice to bring the rest of the world up to our standards instead of us being dropped to theirs.

"Occasionally it would be nice to bring the rest of the world up to our standards instead of us being dropped to theirs."

Up to our standards? If you mean standards of racism, imperialism, war-mongering, prejudice, inequality than yeah.

Bill Lumbergh's picture

the poster was referring to the economic standards of our nation.

This meme that anyone voicing concerns about the specifics of so-called 'immigration reform' is a racist disgusts me.

Teddy Phufner's picture

"Occasionally it would be nice to bring the rest of the world up to our standards instead of us being dropped to theirs."

If you mean by bring up to our standards that we don't have universal health care for all, that our income inequality has begun to rival that of 3rd world dictatorships, that union membership is at century-long lows, that our infant mortality rate is at the bottom of industrialized nations...should I go on Bill? These are economic measures and these are connected to the immigration debate because certain immigrants in this country who are here for economic reasons get treated like shit and it reflects on the well-being of this country. Wake up!

FilthyHarry's picture

I TOTALLY know some guys that can do that for you cheap! Just drive up to the Home Depot parking lot with a pick up and they'll be waiting.

Uncle Joe Mccarthy's picture

needed immigration reform to repair a broken system

gave amnesty to millions and made a mockery of the system

and what happened?

over the next 20 years, the illegal problem got worse and employers were not penalized in the slightest

i want to know how that will change before i support any new reform program

i have a better idea...let them all go back to their respective countries, and apply like everyone else

problem solved.....next

ronhohn's picture

... too many - especially in Mexico - don't have jobs, so they come here to find one. If they go to the back of the line like you suggest, they will be senior citizens by the time they get a visa to enter legally. The line is years long.

Then how are you going to convince them all - including those who have grown roots here - to leave, and leave their families behind?

We need a separate line for those who want to work, who will be permanently ineligible for permanence and any children will not be American citizens.


If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem

ron's picture

who hired them in prison and they will go back on their own. There won't be any jobs for them.

ronhohn's picture

... have no way of verifying citizenship, and you will have no strawberries to eat.


If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem

ronhohn's picture

Since most Americans object to a National ID Card - even though a Driver License serves that purpose - we need to require employers to verify who the applicants are by requesting either a Driver License or an ID Card (California issues those to non-drivers).
All Driver Licenses should be encoded as to whether the holder showed proof of citizenship when issued.
No Driver Licence - No ID card - Non-citizen = no job. Special ID's to be issued to those who come through the work-permit line.


If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem

General Jack D. Ripper's picture

"Unresolved problem" segment? Laura Ingraham is an "unresolved problem!"

KingCranky's picture

.....feel that, since he was also assessed a fine, but had his prison sentence commuted before serving a single day behind bars, Lewis Libby received "amnesty" for his role in deliberately outing Valerie Plame?

Also, the quickest way to stop undocumented immigrants would be for the heads and boards of these major corporations, like Wal-Mart, to get hit with long prison sentences and forfeiture of ALL their assets.

Of course, if that was to happen, or if all the undocumented immigrants were actually deported, then expect the price of everything to skyrocket at the checkout counter.

Bill Lumbergh's picture

but if this reform (amnesty) puts all these illegals 'on the books', won't that mean increased prices at the checkout counter?

I don't buy any of this 'Americans won't do those jobs' bullshit. It is a patently false assertion that is easily disproven by looking at who is doing 'those jobs' in parts of the nation that haven't yet been inundated with illegals.

I have yet to hear the uber-rightous wing of my party explain how putting poor people who are primarily African-American out of work by replacing them with desperate, illiterate immigrants is 'social justice'. Charity starts at home.

ronhohn's picture

... some convoluted statements about 'the rule of law' if it should apply to those who register if here illegally, but I never before heard her complain about the rule of law in reference to illegal war, torture, wiretaps, habeas corpus.


If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem

newmoon's picture

"Under current law, undocumented workers are at the mercy of employers to the same extent that unprotected native-born workers were before the union victories of the 1930s".
I don't know if you've noticed, but those victories have been overturned. 'Cause you know Unions are evil incarnate.

i'm a bit suprised. ms. ingraham wasn't as irritating as she usually is.


Bruce C Johnson

Bill israel's picture

The greatest periods of growth in the last 125 years were when we had: 1) large periods of immigration; 2) after WW2, when pent-up demand combined with no competition led to domestic industry having its greatest period of profits.

Short of starting and winning WW3 and eliminating the competition, we should be encouraging immigration. Immigrants are the engine of growth and we would be well served by loosening quota levels.

Bill Lumbergh's picture

nonsense.
Even if we accept your point for the sake of argument, there is a vast difference between the U.S. economy then and now. Unskilled immigrants may have helped fuel the boom when the economy was agriculture and manufacturing based, but that certainly isn't the case any more. We don't have enough jobs for the unskilled labor we already have.

Ix Chel's picture

Think about it like this...if a person has a job they create production...also with their presence they also consume and purchase thus creating other jobs. How? Well if they are present and purchase articles in a store someone must be there to attend to them and also someone must be there to produce those items the store needs to provide to their clients. The end result is the creation of more jobs.
Also, he pointed out both times of huge immigration both in early years and recently during Clinton was when we not only had the biggest influxes of immigration but the lowest unemployment and best economy.

The age-old pesky U.S.-Mexico border problem has taxed the resources of both countries, led to long lists of injustices, and appears to be heading only for worse troubles in the future. Guess what? The border problem can never be solved. Why? Because the border IS the problem! It's time for a paradigm change.

Never fear, a satisfying, comprehensive solution is within reach: the Megamerge Dissolution Solution. Simply dissolve the border along with the failed Mexican government, and megamerge the two countries under U.S. law, with mass free 2-way migration eventually equalizing the development and opportunities permanently, with justice and without racism, and without threatening U.S. sovereignty or basic principles.

Take time to read my article by Googling "Megamerge Dissolution Solution".

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