Israeli commandos open fire on Gaza aid ship, at least 16 reported killed
More than 10 pro-Palestinian activists were killed during a raid by naval commandos halting an aid flotilla heading toward the blockaded Gaza Strip, the Israeli military said Monday.
An official said the soldiers were attacked with knives and clubs as they boarded the six vessels.
The Israeli military said the violence turned deadly after one of the activists grabbed a weapon from one of the commandos. The weapon discharged, though it wasn't clear whether the activist fired it or if it went off accidentally.
Al-Jazeera TV reported by telephone from the Turkish ship leading the flotilla that Israeli forces fired at the ship and boarded it, wounding the captain. The broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!"
Turkey's NTV network reported that at least 30 activists were wounded.
'Massacre'
Some 700 pro-Palestinian activists are on the boats, including 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and an elderly Holocaust survivor.Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas described the incident as a "massacre," the official Wafa news agency reported.
The raid came just after daybreak, with the flotilla still well away from the Gaza shore. Israel had declared it would not allow the ships to reach Gaza.
In Istanbul, Turkey, police blocked dozens of stone-throwing protesters who tried to storm the Israeli Consulate.
The UK reports indicate that the death toll is at least 16.
The Israeli ambassador to Turkey, the base of one of the human rights organisation which organised the flotilla, was summoned by the foreign ministry in Anakara, as the Israeli consulate in Istanbul came under attack.
One Israeli minister issued immediate words of regret. "The images are certainly not pleasant. I can only voice regret at all the fatalities," Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, the trade and industry minister, told army radio.
But he added that the commandoes had been attacked with batons and activists had sought to take their weapons off them.
Israeli military sources said four of its men had been injured, one stabbed, and that they had been shot at.
"The flotilla's participants were not innocent and used violence against the soldiers. They were waiting for the forces' arrival," they were quoted by a news website as saying.
As you can see in the CNN portion of the above video, the real casualty of this affair may be Turkish-Israeli relations, which have played a critical role in maintaining the balance of power in the Middle East.
International waters?
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
No law against it, it is between countries. However, it does mean the ships had every right to defend themselves. As an aid flotilla they weren't planning on it however.
Watch Turkey. Most of the ships were flagged to Turkey. Poor Turkey, they were running out of patience with Iran, but now this. After this, citizens there may no longer have any patience with trying to be a diplomatic bridge into the middle-east.
Turkey wasn't running out of patience with Iran.
Turkey, with assistance from Russia and Brazil, just brokered a uranium fuel swap with Iran, scuttling the US effort to impose greater sanctions on Iran.
This insane Israeli barbarity drives a further wedge between Turkey and Israel .. and the US as well.
In the last week or so Turkey and Russia have completely tipped the balance of power in the Middle East.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
But from other sources they were getting frustrated with Iran, on more levels than the deal.
And yes, this Israeli act messes up the good parts of what they just did.
to take away attention from what they are doing in Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinian people!....
commandos in the wee hours in international waters--You can bet any humand would pick up a kitchen knife, wrench, or what ever stick available!
This is murder, hostage taking, and then we have the Atrocities of Gaza!
I am really ticked about the milquetoast response by our ambassador and rahm in the Admin! Israel needs to be denounced now..All monies cut off and who ever ordered and okayed this in Israel should be in the Hague ASAP! Do not forget the USS Liberty--Israel is not our friend or anyones..Pushing the victim card no longer works..Liars and Killers!
....it's called an "act of war"! Any countty's armed force that attacks - that's what this is - a ship of another country is comitting an act of war. It's clear cut law of the seas.
MZ
Israel attacked the USS Liberty in 1967 and it was in international waters. They killed 34 sailors and injured over a hundred using torpedos and napalm and helicopter gunships with the US stars and stripes clearly flying!
And here was the result of a report of this in 2003 that was buried by the U.S. MSM:
"There is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret)."
The crew, the report said, were "abandoned by their own government... fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the US Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty... due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people... there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history."
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
The attacking planes had no IDF Flag to fool the Americans that they were attacked by Egypt in order to provoque the US to intervine in their WAR, that was the main reazon for attacking the USS Liberty
....the flotilla was engaged in aid and support of Israel's sworn enemy, Hamas, an organization dedicated to its utter destruction.
I am always sad when people die... but sometimes I am more sad than I am about this one.
Sounds like a confused mess at sea during a boarding and interdiction mission, but Israel's right and obligation to stop and inspect ships entering Gaza, lest they contain weapons that would be used to kill its citizens can hardly be questioned.
This is what war looks like. If Hamas wanted peace, the story could be very different, but don't expect that any time soon.
than obama apologists....
this was NO "confused mess"....this was a massacre and was a premeditated Israeli operation. Israel wanted blood because it believes that its ‘power of deterrence’ expands with the more dead it leaves behind. The Israeli decision to use hundreds of commando soldiers against civilians was taken by the Israeli cabinet together with the Israeli top military commanders. What we saw yesterday wasn’t just a failure on the ground. It was actually an institutional failure of a morbid society that a long time ago lost touch with humanity.....
Cue the Kabuki....
I find it improbable to think that the death of civilians was a planned ("premeditated") component, but I'd wager that the soldiers were told to meet potentially deadly resistance with fire.
I don't see that civilian deaths add to the deterrent power of Israel. They certainly don't help the public relations battle, as your comments provide ample evidence. So on balance it's hard to see how the death of 16 persons would be planned or of value to Israel.
No, this is just war and war is ugly.
For days the Israeli government prepared the Israeli society for the massacre at sea. It said that the Flotilla carried weapons, it had ‘terrorists’ on board. The Israeli malicious media spin was there to prepare the Israeli public for a full scale Israeli deadly military operation in international waters. Make no mistake, they knew of the consequences, the Israeli cabinet and military elite were fully aware of it all the way along. What happened yesterday was just a pirate terrorist attack....period.
you state ....." If Hamas wanted peace, the story could be very different"....and ..."this is just war and war is ugly"
NO...this is terrorism! If Israel is threatened by unarmed, humanitarian activists to the point of massacring them, then Israel is a failed state. A failed state that relies on terrorism and has a stockpile of nukes to boot... Israel is a failed nuclear state and must be stopped.
Cue the Kabuki....
was downright hilarious! (Israeli) GPO recommends restaurant. It would be funnier if at the end of the media gear-ups (on all sides) people hadn't died.
FWIW
Iran's Press TV is also pure propaganda.
We understand that you and Hamas would like Israel to fail, but that's not the same as it already having failed.
It wouldn't surprise me that Israeli intelligence was aware of who would be on the ship, their intentions, and their armaments. Naturally, they issued dire warnings.
Obviously "piracy" and "terrorist" are fun words to throw about, but a sober consideration of their meanings suggests that this action can hardly be considered "piracy" or "terrorism"... unless of course you think that Israel itself is a "terrorist entity"... at which point you are in the realm of propaganda, and then of course, as noted, war is war and there isn't much to talk about.
Initial reports suggest that the "humanitarian activists" were not unarmed, and resisted Israel's effort to board and inspect the contents of the ships. Your characterization is belied by every report so far published.
When I look up the definition of terrorrism and apply it objectively, the actions of Israel and it's forces always meets that definition. Does that make Israel a terrorist state? You decide.
Terrorism is a word we use to assert that the other side is engaged in illegitimate violence.
When two sides are both calling the other side terrorists, it is is safe to say that they are at war.
You're one! No you're one!
...were the people on these ships terrorists?
I think rather than labeling them yes/no, we should describe what happened, which appears to be that soldiers boarded a ship, people got pissed off, someone shoved, someone pushed, someone threw something, a shot was fired, more shots were fired....
Did their operation include transport of weapons to support Hamas, which is at war with the State of Israel? The boarding would have determined that.
Who on board knew of any weapons, if anyone? Some, even most, may well have been "humanitarian activists" but some folks were also armed, and someone is alleged to have fired.
Except for Jerusalem post all initial accounts say Israel warships and helicopters attacked unarmed aid ships at 11pm.
And no, initial reports say that one person being attacked tried to grab a commando's weapon. And that's what thee Israeli's say.
They rappelled down, started killing people and ignored not only international waters but a white flag of truce.
[Deleted. Please don't advocate violence at this site. Thank you. Site Monitor]
Because the stories have been changing ever since it happened.
The latest: The IDF contacted the flotilla on the radio, told them that the port at Gaza was closed, and that the flotilla needed to change course. IDF fired a shot across the bow, sent in the commandos to search the ship. Commandos were attacked as they rappelled off the chopper- here's video of that last bit. Thst doesn't look like passive resistance to me.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
stockpile of nukes to boot..." Why does that sound so familiar?
Israelis have gone on record suggesting that war should be made to be as horrible as possible -- including the deaths of women and children. Why? To make people less likely to enter into warfare with each other.
With that in mind, this latest fiasco serves to deter further aid convoys from doing the same thing.
Since the 1966 Arab israeli war, Israel had seen ittself as the big bad sheriff in town and has been throwing its weight around. What it has failed to see, like the chicken that is roasting and praising itself for being real sizzly, is that there is a gradual equalisation of forces no matter how much the US backs you and modern technical superiority you have because people stop fighting the traaditional western way. So what in effect the 1966 Arab israeli war did was give Israel a long noose that it has been slowly but surely wrapping around it,s neck and only if it realises in time what is happening to it, it will surely destroy itself. It does not need any help from Amadinejhad to complete the self destruction.
It is happening because of a delusion of power and possibly the trend that an abused tends to become an abuser usually in the pretence of preventngding being abused.
I also have severe doubts that it has the wisdom to extricate itself from this noose. We liberal proZionists, two state solution types, have been saying that for a long time, and it may well be too late to create a democratic Jewish state.
Because however the Arabs of Palestine are also involved in the stalemate, they give Israel a pretty easy out to claim legitimate self defense in cases like this. If Hamas would commit to recognizing the legitimacy of Jewish sovereignty in the land of Israel, they could create a real problem for right wing Israeli governments. Fortunately for the Israeli right, and unfortunately for the Israeli left, they don't seem inclined to do that.
Certainly the continued occupation makes the claim that Israel is a democracy depend on a fine set of legalisms. The more closely the population of the Judea and Samaria is wrapped up in the Israel state the closer the liberal Zionist idea is to failure. However, the safety of my family in Israel isn't something that I'm going to agree should be compromised just because the political stalemate is unending.
But that's a whole other subject. In the mean time Israel has legitimate interests in preventing the importation of weapons to Hamas, and all the squawking about this particular incident seems to me to be a lot of trumped up outrage and propaganda.
A thousand times, THIS!
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
thanks Andy K
I had to work today. My question is,
Has there been any weapons found on board that vessel?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
...other than the allegation that the protesters may have had and fired a small arms (a pistol.)
But that doesn't matter. Israel has the right and the need to inspect ships attempting to enter its sovereign territory and bring aid to an organization with an eliminationist agenda.
It has a right to block even "humanitarian" aid if it wishes to do so.
Whether it found weapons is immaterial.
And the fuss about international waters is really pushing legalisms too far. The tactical and strategic intent of the ships were well known, widely publicized, and not denied by anyone. Should Israel wait until they cross some arbitrary threshold just to satisfy the niceties of International Law? What if they decided that tactical surprise was better served and loss of life better reduced by an earlier interdiction? I would hope they'd have the good sense to begin the operation on their own terms as opposed to those of the enemy.
And make no mistake about it, these people ("humanitarian activists" as they liked to call themselves) are the enemy of peace. They were bringing aid to a murderous regime, committed to NEVER making peace. Hamas does not deserve your respect, your support or your sympathy. Be angry with Israel if you will, and save your sympathy for the Palestinian people, but Hamas deserves your contempt and outrage, and those who were participating in this mission were at best misguided and naive. At best.
That was the reason they boarded that vessel. Because they believed there were weapons on board destined for Gaza. So, it is very much so relevant.
I do believe that was the reason Israel gave for needing to board and inspect that vessel.
Now, I have no qualms with the Israeli people.
To each his/her own.
But, if Israel really wants to live in peace with Palestine, Don't you think they should stop occupying more and more of Palestine's land? And stop building new settlements?
I understand that there are no winners in this. No one wins. Both countries need to sit down and negotiate a lasting peace.
Both countries need to be willing to give a little. This thing with Israel and the surrounding Arab countries is setting the whole damn planet on fire.
I'm not big on religion. But it seems to me that religion is the root cause of all of this.
I'm just sick and tired of all of this.
This has been going on for my whole life. And I doubt I'll live long enough to see it end.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I disagree that the presence or absence of weapons is of any consequence. The interdiction is justified by the possibility of the presence of weapons, just as any border inspection is justified by the possibility of smuggling. You don't fire the border guards if they inspect a suitcase and don't find the contraband.
Regarding occupation I agree.
Israel needs to end the occupation and create the space to establish a Palestinian state. LOTS of people believe that.
Israel also has its right wing totalitarian eliminationists, who are very Hamas like.
I won't get into a discussion of who has more of them.
Also, the people of Gaza are under enormous economic and other pressures. But it works both ways. They have chosen to be governed by Hamas, which sets as its goal the elimination of Israel. OK. We all understand what might drive people to that position. But understanding does not mean that we must then make peace with it. In fact it is impossible to make peace with it.
I'm as sick of it as you are. But when you see that people are calling aid to Hamas "Humanitarian Aid" and acting as if this makes it OK, well, there's another thing you can get good and sick of too.
I understand that Hamas was elected to be the political party. I don't like them one bit. I don't like what they stand for or what they are. Fatah seems to be a better option for the people of Palestine.
Arrafat was no prize either.
But an all out embargo of Gaza does hurt many people who just might not agree with Hamas. True, they should vote them out.
But I don't think it's that simple for them there.
Yes Israel has the right to defend itself. But, if Israel stopped the settlements, it would be a very good first move towards peace.
Someone has to make the first move.
And Israel being the more powerful, it should be them. Until that happens. Nothing will change. It only gives the radicals in Gaza an excuse to foment violence. Israel knows this. Yet they continue to grab lands. That shows me that the Israeli govt has no intention of seeking peace. You seem to want to paint this humanitarian aid as to Hamas. It's not. And you know it. It's aid to the people of Gaza.
Which brings me back to the supposed reason for the intervention.
It's common knowledge that Israel is blocking all supplies into Gaza.
Israel won't even let the fishermen go out and fish.They are trying to starve them out Mike. That is not seeking peace.
What do you think would happen if, say,
The Vatican came and occupied Israeli lands and set up settlements for Catholics?
As the story goes, A Pharaoh gave the Jews their freedom. Which sent them out wandering the desert for 40 years. Until they found Israel and Moses claimed God told him this is your home. Do you believe that?
My point is this. If you believe what the Bible says, then the Jewish people are not the indigenous people of that land.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
"you seem to want to paint this humanitarian aid as to Hamas. It's not. And you know it. It's aid to the people of Gaza."
I don't see how it is possible to aid the people without aiding the regime... the very same regime that was launching rockets on S'derot recently and which has continued to attempt to do so.
I wish there was a carrot of peace that could bring Hamas and the people of Gaza to recognition of the legitimacy of Jewish political sovereignty in the land of Israel/Palestine. Maybe there is, but at the moment Israel is using the stick of border controls, and when you consider the Hamas political posture and recent rocket attacks, well, it's hard to see what else they could do.
The Vatican example misses the point on so many levels it's hardly worth discussing. The Vatican is not a nation, not indigenous to Palestine. Try the Circassians or the Druze if you want a reasonable example, although what your point would be I don't know.
The Jews resided continuously in their homeland since they lost sovereignty there around 70 AD. Yeah, we got it in 1920 that the Arabs didn't like us returning to our land. In Amos Oz's words, your right to be in the lifeboat doesn't give you the right to stop me from climbing in too.
My Vatican example does hit on a point Mike. Granted, it off base a bit.
But I think you know what I was getting at.
As the story goes, A Pharaoh gave the Jews their freedom. Which sent them out wandering the desert for 40 years. Until they found Israel and Moses claimed God told him this is your home. Do you believe that?
My point is this. If you believe what the Bible says, then the Jewish people are not the indigenous people of that land.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Regarding biblical history, I'm not interested in what I consider to be the mythological level.
The fact that Jews, Arabs, and their predecessors have been there a very long time is enough for me. In fact we Jews and Arabs are all Semites, and communities have mingled and intermarried throughout the Muslim and Jewish Arab world, in Palestine and elsewhere. Did you know that some Palestinians Arabs are descended from indigenous Palestinian Jews? So the myths we tell in prehistory about conquering the land settle nothing for me. We're all African if you go far enough back, and that doesn't settle any current political problem either.
But that's the root of this whole thing.
And, then what's the beef with Israel grabbing Palestinian land?
If, as you say, they have been neighbors, why is Israel grabbing it's neighbors land?
What is your conceptual, continuity?
But you won't box me into someone else's bad biblical history.
Have a nice evening mike.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
So far as I am concerned Israel is equivalent to dead man walking. It is only a question of time. Al the flailings and killings may postpone the evil day and unless there is a change of course the state of Israel is already stone dead.
Israel's 'legitimate interests' do not extend to international waters. They have no jurisdiction there.
Your having 'family in Israel' has made you quite biased.
It has biased me in favor of survival, and it has biased me in favor of justice for all sides.
Has made you an apologist for actions you seem to condemn with all your heart when it comes from the other side.
You see equivalences that I do not see.
.....doesn't Israel have to adhere to Laws of the Seas?
Btw, do you consider the findings the World Health Organization, among others, about the status of Gaza to be BS?
I oppose the Israeli occupation. I oppose Hamas. I support mutual recognition and a sovereign Palestinian state alongside Israel in the land.
When an Israeli government I oppose engages an Arab government (Hamas and its international supporters) that I also oppose, my primary thought is that they are both pursuing the wrong path.
But on balance Hamas would slice my throat and drop rockets on the heads of my family, and so I have even less sympathy for them than I do for the Israel government and am glad that Israel is taking action to protect its citizens.
It would be nice if all the Hamas lovers here and around the world would own up to the eliminationist agenda that they are supporting with their humanitarian aid. I won't hold my breath.
One can consider this action a reason for loss of faith in Israel (the current government) without that meaning any increase in or prior love for Hamas. I suspect your familiarity with the parties is blinding you to this: It is reasonable for someone with no self-interest in either to decide to turn their back on both parties.
In other words, deciding both the current Israeli government as well as Hamas, the government, are not worthy of consideration as moral entities is quite valid and the danger Israel runs in this situation.
...."recognizing the legitimacy of Jewish sovereignty in the land of Israel"....sounds like buybull bullshit...
So, the 'Arabs of Palestine' should give in and concede to ever demand of the israeli right and then and only then will the 'israeli left' sweep into power and bring flowers, milk, and cookies for all....But, since they "don't seem inclined to do that" I guess it is ok to lock the Palestinians into a nice neat concentration camp until they "seem inclined"....
well at least I now know wtf a "liberal prozionist" is....
Cue the Kabuki....
Peace in Palestine depends on mutual recognition of the legitimacy of the other's side in the land.
The legitimacy of Jewish sovereignty in Palestine (or the Land of Israel) is a shared belief of the Zionist left and right.
Only the Jewish left acknowledges the legitimacy of Arab sovereignty in Palestine (aka the Land of Israel.)
When there is mutual recognition, there will be peace. Not before.
---
As for locking the Palestinians in the prison camp of Gaza, it's a human rights disaster. Unfortunately, the solution lies in political agreement. It's not OK to do what Israel is doing in Gaza... unfortunately, Israel has given Hamas and the people of Gaza a key to its own prison in the form of an offer to talk about mutual recognition, and Hamas has responded with rockets, and by kicking the Palestinian political group that would like to accept that offer out of Gaza.
Yes, now you know, if you have the ability to hear, what a liberal supporter of Zionism thinks.
"Is" seems a bit essentialist, though, don't you think?
An oppressed people living in their own land under occupation from an invading army. Yes of course they should bow the knee and declare the invading army/regime legitimate.
Exactly the same as the Polish peoples of 1939 should have welcomed the nazis and the soviets when they invaded jointly Poland.
... when you make peace you acknowledge the legitimacy of the other. There never has been any other way. Otherwise you are just surrendering to military power, and planning to kill on another day.
It was a humanitarian mission to provide food and medical supplies to Palestinians.
No one has thee right to commit a war crime in International waters.
So, Mike, let me get this straight. You are defending:
* An illegal blockage of Gaza by Israel.
* Gaza, having a coastline has it's own water territory which is subject to Israeli policing.
* The flotilla, with multinational content from Turkey to Australia on a mission to deliver aid is considered threatening to Israel.
* The boarding, which occurred 60 nm out into the ocean, in international waters was ok despite international law & laws of the sea.
* The approach to the boarding, which was to descent from helicopter with guns aimed was a appropriate response to an unarmed, unthreatening clearly marked vessel.
* Killing as many as 19 civilians on a vessel illegally boarded in an agressive manner is fine.
Why? Because you believe this is a war between Israel & Hamas? Hamas can choose peace where all the conditions are dictated by Israel. I can't fathom why they wouldn't just do it!!
The realtiy is, what you've claimed is utter rubbish. It is a clear breach of a series of laws. It is at minimum a serious overeaction, at worst an act of state terrorism, piracy and denial of human rights to Palestinians.
* No, I defend it because a state of war exists.
* Yes
* Yes
* Yes
* No, because I do not agree that it was "unthreatening". The strategic intentions of Hamas explain why a vessel sailing to its aid is by definition threatening.
* No. Killing of course is "aggressive" by definition. I defend the interdiction, but regret the loss of life.
Hamas can choose peace when it wishes to choose peace. Peace means mutual recognition of the legitimacy of the other. Hamas, like some right wing Israeli groups seems to have a problem with that concept.
Overreaction? Clearly the operation did not go well, but stopping aid to Hamas is fully justifiable. See my response above ("I have not heard...")
The first thing, by admission that there is a 'state of war' is that: Israel is the overwhelmingly larger power here. It has annexed, if not invaded Palestination sovereign territory. That is the 'state of war' you speak of.
You are blinded by your support. In this blindness, Israel can do no wrong and anything related to Palestine can never be legitimate. Your mentality is the reason the problems have continued since Israel's inception. Until that blind support stops, it will continue.
Hamas cannot choose peace on such an unequal setting. Why must Palestinians forfeit their land? Would you under their circumstances? Why do they not have the right to a legitimate defense of their state? When there is a recognition of legitimacy from both sides it may progress. Until then, why would you not expect Israel to roll over but expect Palestine to?
PS. Hamas had very little, if anything, to do with the flotilla.
...a "Palestinian sovereign nation". There almost was in 1948, when one was supposed to come into existence alongside Israel in 1948, but that proposed nation was divvied up between Jordan, Egypt and Syria before it ever was. Prior to that, the land has been occupied by the Brits, the Ottomans, the Mamalukes, the Western European Crusaders, the Caliphate, the Byzantines, the Romans...the Jews were the last people to have a wholly sovereign state there.
And no matter who they're dealing with as immediate neighbors, Hamas will be relatively weak. If all of the Jews in Israel were to just disappear right now you can bet your ass that the other players- if not divvying up the territory again- would back Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
... but not in stopping the flotilla.
If Hamas cannot choose peace in an unequal setting then there is truly no peace to be had, because inequality of power is the reality here. Sorry you feel that way. I don't think that Fatah has the same view of the matter.
Nations negotiate peace settlements all the time, based on the power they have, not the power they wish they would have.
Who am I to tell Hamas what they should do? If they want perpetual war, or war until their victory, I guess they shall have it. When they say "we can recognize that you Jews are a legitimate indigenous people of Palestine, like us", well then there will be peace. Probably not before. It's all about equality, mutual recognition, mutual respect. Either you believe in it as the goal... or you don't. If you don't think its the goal, then it's a struggle of all against all until the end of time.
PS. The flotilla was destined for the Hamas controlled territory of Gaza, and would strengthen and legitimize Hamas. They don't have to organize it for it to be about them.
So now, we have, rather than rule of law we descend into 'might is right'. As Israel is the more powerful, the Palestinians have no rights. They MUST accept any offering from Israel otherwise, they are the bad guys. That 'logic' is literally insane.
So, an international contingent sending aid to an illegally blockaded state attacked & murdered by an aggressive force that has maintains the illegal blockade is and not wrong. To murder unarmed civilians, or even civilians armed in defense of an illegal and aggressive boarding is not wrong. So tell me, when is it not ok? I mean, you're kind of dismissing 90% of the law for most nations as well as international law. When isn't it right?
Hamas were the legitimately elected government. They have a legitimate right to resist an invading power.
They don't have to accept anything... until they want peace, and then they have to accept what Israel has to accept... the legitimate rights of the other.
Hamas should resist as long as it likes. When it tires of war, Israel has expressed a willingness to make peace.
Gaza is not a state. The killing was unfortunate. The flotilla was not benign. The boarding was of course aggressive, like the flotilla.
It sounds like you don't like war. Join the club. Nobody hates it more than me.
Hamas was "legitimately" elected to be sure. But Israel's legitimate response to an offer of perpetual war seems pretty reasonable to me. The legitimacy of your election doesn't thereby exempt you from the moral obligation to make peace. On that count Hamas, and its enablers, have failed utterly, and committed themselves to failing in perpetuity.
Good luck with that plan.
... is that this was a deliberate, aggressive, provocation on the part of Hamas. But then, 'provocation' doesn't require a response every single time, and certainly not an armed one, does it?
In a broader sense, I think we're seeing yet another turd left by the Bush Administration. Launching a war under false pretenses, becoming the aggressor led by a weak 'little man' completely destroyed America's reputation abroad. As a result, we have Iran thumbing its nose at us, Israel smirking as they take the Cheney Doctrine, and now add South Korea/North Korea to the mix.
Everyone's acting up because we no longer have the moral authority backed by our military strength; we're just another fucking regime with guns.
from someone who isn't exactly an ally (China) to wage them, well, you just look like a pussy...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
to thumb their noses at us....
You can do that when you have the moral high ground.
Why Israel decided to do this in international waters and not wait for the flotilla to enter their own waters when they'd have a touch of legal justification boggles my mind.
On the other hand, attacking commandos is a surefire way to provoke a VERY violent response. It is, unfortunately, how the military is trained to respond - if under attack, you use lethal force.
All in all, this aid ship was doing the right thing, the Israelis seemed to be acting in an improper manner, but then were given an excuse for violence. Ugh.
Heli's is responeded to by batons--When was the last time a baton killed someone that was armed..MASSACRE--is the only term that fits!
Israel is trying to destablize the Middle East---but this is stupid!
Humanity is not Israel--disporportionate force once again and Gaza is a ghetto because of the Israeli govrnment--no food, building supplies, medicine, a wall built on their land, water fouled--Horid ba$tards...CUT OFF THE MONEY TO ISRAEL NOW...Call Congress 1.800.828.0498!
Well, knives do and there are reports of those being used. Additionally, there seems to be conflicting reports as to whether or not one person wrested a gun from an Israeli commando.
It's far too soon to be sure, but if those reports are true...
Oh yeah, sure. I can see that happening. An unarmed civilian taking the weapon away from a highly trained Israeli commando. If you believe that, I've got some lovely beachfront property in downtown Wichita I'd love to sell ya.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
Ya know what? In a confined space with hundreds of people and mass confusion? Yes, I can believe that that could have happened.
Obviously it's too soon for finger pointing - emotions are high and it will be interesting to see what facts come out (not spin by either side).
Israeli commandos were confronted and used deadly force against people who were unarmed. In the confusion and mayhem of Israeli forces trying to arrest those who were doing nothing illegal they lost control and FORGOT they were not on some isolated portion of the Gaza Strip surrounded by nameless, faceless Palestinians and instead were aboard a high profile activist ship full of people people from various countries. There were even white people onboard!
Whoops, public relations fiasco.
Radix Omnium Malorum Avaritia
You bring armed commandos into a volatile situation and you expect the folks on the boat to sit there and take it?
By that token, then the Israelis would be justified in responding in kind.
I tend to think that non-violence is the better option - from either side.
According to the article Dave linked to above, the Israelis fired the first shot even before they boarded the boats.
In my view, the boat occupants are within their rights to defend themselves.
If Israel had wanted to peacefully investigate the boats for weaponry, that would have been the compromise to the situation. Instead, they fire first, ask questions later.
Then they confiscate the materials off of the boats that were intended for Gaza. Any of it weaponry? NO. At least by the Israeli reporting of cement, water purifiers and housing materials. No mention of AK-47's, etc.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
Firing a shot prior to boarding is accepted international practice for a "stop and prepare to be boarded" action. So that single shot prior to boarding doesn't hold much water.
And apparently light weapons were confiscated (according to Israeli gov't spokespeople, so, grain of salt)
Well, in my view, firing the first shot is a sign of aggression, regardless of "accepted international practice".
It's not a *welcome wagon* sign for peaceful interaction.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
No, commandos storming the boat from helos is not a "welcome wagon" but that doesn't change what is accepted international practice on the waters - which is firing a shot across the bow. Hell, that happens between the Koreas on occasion - it simply IS the international standard on that stuff.
make everyone in the world sick.
the first shot was the captain of the vessel.
was he somehow floating above the boat and got hit accidently.
why don't you crawl back into your hole.
you are for some reason defending murderers.
the security this website has for registration is goofy.
That's not what the article says at all.
"The Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported by telephone from the Turkish ship leading the flotilla that Israeli navy forces fired at the ship and boarded it, wounding the captain."
This says to me that in the process of boarding it, the captain was wounded.
And I'm defending murderers by saying to what for evidence? Perhaps the video now out of the civilians throwing fire bombs at the troops?
This isn't about defending anyone, it's about acknowledging truth.
I'm wondering who took all those videos. The Palestineans? The Israelis? The Turks? Some look like they were shot from alongside. From another ship? From a helicopter?
It looks like some people were ready to record the reaction of the victims to their being attacked. I wonder who . . .
The flotilla was in international waters,and the ships were flying the flag of Turkey, a state that WAS friendly to Israel and is member of NATO. Those on board were peace activists and parliamentarians from 40 different countries, and included an Irish Nobel laureate.
The repercussions for this action by Israel will be severe and widespread, and there will now be intense pressure on the US to rein them in.
As many as 16 people are reported dead.
Now we need to know who they were, where they were from, and how exactly they died.
With this action, Israel has made many new enemies for itself.
We'll let our a-hole bully little brother get away with it. We'll veto any UNSC resolution. And we'll keep saying "they hate us because of our freedom."
Israeli agents recently used forged European and Australian passports to pull off a hit on Hamas member in Dubai.
Where is the line where a nation becomes rogue state if they cross it?
Why isn't that line the same for everyone?... and I include the U.S. in this.
We hold some nations to a standard that we and our 'allies' don't always keep ourselves.
Hypocrisy is never good for ANY of the parties involved.
... so I'm sure that it agrees that Israel should inspect boats entering the Gaza territory for weapons destined for Hamas... which is committed to Israel's elimination.
i don't think so.
at least not anymore. the realtionship betw israel and turkey was tenuous. the continuing persecusion and appartied of the palestinian ppl in isreal has been a huge issue for the turkish ppl.
and now? it's not just about our cousins in israel, they have attacked turkey.
---------------
i'm still saying what the hell?
is it possible for an entire country to shoot itself in the foot?
the security this website has for registration is goofy.
The names of those murdered/injured and their countries of origin.
Cynthia McKinney posted a strong response to this massacre:
http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/gazadelegatio...
I hope Susie or David will try to get this information for us and post it in a thread....
Maybe a Mid-Day Memorial Day Thread??
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
So the Israeli govt' said this? You're going to take their word for it. Israel has made it a policy to murder peace activist and journalist for years. The most dangerous nation in the Mideast is not Iran it is Israel.
is intended to be a factual statement
....a lawyer trained in laws of the admiralty?
"Firing a shot prior to boarding is accepted international practice for a "stop and prepare to be boarded" action." These ships are unarmed transport ships. Secondly, these ships are Turkish flagged vessels. You can not legally board any ship flying a foreign flag without notifying and receiving permission from the flagging country - Turkey in this case. Of course, this doesn't apply to countries at war. I don't believe Israel and Turkey are at war.
imagine knives and screwdrivers on a ship. armed? hardly. but if you were on the ship and these criminals rappelled onto the deck could you resist the urge to smack them up side the head with a broomstick? hockey stick, baseball bat, cricket bat?
the security this website has for registration is goofy.
See, this is what the Palestinian cause needs - a devoted, non-violent leader that i accepted by its people (a la MLK or Gandhi). So long as violence is given in return to Israel, no matter the severity of it, it will serve to perpetuate the cycle.
Someone needs to press the off switch on it, and I wish that I would see things like sit-ins, marches, and other things occur without violence from the protesters.
Resisting that urge is PRECISELY what needs to occur. Imagine if the headline were 16 dead but that there was no video of people on the boat fighting back? Then you have actual momentum towards holding ISrael responsible.
Israeli Commandos acting like this in international waters = Piracy on the High Seas.
You can certainly question the efficacy of attacking these commandos with knives, but you cannot question the legal or moral right to do so.
I can question the legal or moral right to attack another human being. If you think that because a force has arrived and is armed, then it is okay to bring violence to them, we have a basic issue there. Just because the other side is armed, that does not invite violence to occur unless the other side seeks to commit violence AS WELL.
Watching the video of the commandos coming off of the helo, it is clear that, at the LEAST, no one in the Gaza aid group was prepared for something like this (which is odd, since the Israelis are notorious for searching these aid boats), and that confusion reined, which led to violence on BOTH sides. While the reason for the violence occurring is Israel's presence, that does not excuse the mobs attacking them on the roof of the ship, either.
Along those lines, the US Navy SEALs that shot the Somali ship hijackers would be committing piracy.
Yes, if you are attacked by pirates, you have a legal and moral right to repel the pirates. That is so well-established in the international community that I find it laughable that you would question it.
Those commandos landed, uninvited, on ships they were not allowed, by law, to land on. They were pirates by every definition of the term.
that says the 'commandos' were attacked is the Israeli military. You'll excuse me if I don't trust known liars version of the events.
Your link says "killing as many as 16 of those on board".
So why do you headline it "at least 16 reported killed"?
license.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Cynthia McKinney over there somewhere in prison because she was on one of those aid boats for Palestine? Haven't heard if she ever was released....
and full US support. And the sheeple wonder "why they hate us", meaning the arab street. Time to end support of these crimes.
http://www.presstv.ir/llnw/
Retired Colonel Ann Wright was on one of those boats.
She wrote about it here.
"When profit comes up against morality, it's rare that profit loses."~Shirley Chisholm
George Galloway was on board?
No. Galloway was in the USA -- Texas, actually.
Here is his response, via podcast:
http://ipad.io/KIN
Thanks for posting that, dolphin. I call everyone's attention to this excerpt:
"Many of us would like to see our boat renamed "The Audacity of Hope" as that is what we want to see from the Obama administration-- courage to challenge the Israeli government on the siege of Gaza."
As much as I admire Col. Wright and what she and her companions are trying to accomplish, I found that statement incredibly naive, especially from a military officer. I mean, really, the Obama administration challenge Israel?? Obama doesn't even have the balls to stand up to the GOP in Congress(despite the fact that his party controls both the House and Senate). Do you really think he's going to have the stomach to take on AIPAC - a lobby so powerful even the likes of Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders cower in fear of retribution? I certainly don't think so.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
she thoiught it was likely to happen she said she'd like to see it. How the fuck is that "naive"?
when she points out they had a survivor of the USS Liberty attack on board.
Two of those ships were flying U.S. flags!
Corruption favors the wealthy.
The world seems filled with anti-semites this morning.
it is pro humanitarian...Israel is doing to the people of Gaza -exactly what was done to them in Germany...Shameless disporportate force!
The ole 'anti-semite' whine has lost its force is the face of the atrocities in Gaza!
I was waiting for the anti-semite flag. It has nothing to do with Judaism, it all has to do with war crimes.
If the people in the US had any consistency they would now be arguing that Judaism (and Christianity) are violent religions and need to be suppressed.
I know better, the majority of folks practicing those religions are not violent.
Aren't Palestinians semites?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
... because having an aggressive, unnecessary action take place aboard an aid convoy is such persecution! Oh, the humanity!
So far, I haven't seen any evidence of them posting here yet.
(Jew speaking here.)
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
you missed the "jews are good at fiddling with numbers" post evidently...
The world is filled with anti-Zionists this morning.
(fixed that for you)
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
People around the world are protesting a country that committed an act of terrorism in international waters. Just like people around the world protested illegal invasions (see Iraq v Kuwait; America v Iraq.)
on his mission of peace is "antisemitism"??? Maybe you should consider taking at least one day off from the drugs? What the world is filled with today is anti-Israeli terrorism. If you support their terrorism I suggest you not express that today of all days.
Criticism of piracy on the high seas and other international crimes is not anti-semiticism.
There are probably millions of Jews like me who are appalled by the actions of the Israeli government.
why I had not yet seen the word, "piracy" used here.
Thank you for that.
So if you disagree with Israel you're an anti-semite? that's a pretty broad brush you're using there. Israel has made it a policy to murder both peace activist and journalist. Just like the USA, everything they do is not always right.
is intended to be a factual statement
The first response of those who blindly and blithely support Israel is not to cry wolf.
The first response is to cry "Wolf's Lair!" and label any critic a Nazi.
And just like the boy who cried wolf, gradually fewer and fewer people believe Israel, especially in the face of its blatant war crimes, apartheid and self serving hypocrisy.
Ditto that Gump . Israel uses the past to get away with murder and all kinds of atrocities themselves and if any one criticizes a Jew or Isreal they are automatically accused of being a Nazi or anti Semite , that's the game . Right is right and wrong is wrong , no matter who it is .
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all."
Perhaps you need glasses.
You would do well to understand the difference between an Israeli and a Jew. Not all Jews are Israelis. And not all Israelis are Jews.
For you to not recognize this very simple fact shows a level of ignorance that must certainly be self-imposed.
It would appear that the anti-semites just come out of the wordwork when Israel murders civilians trying to get aid into Gaza.
Those anti-semites just spew vitriol when the illegal blockade of Gaza is enforced with deadly force in international waters.
The outcry of the anti-semites is overwhelming when, against international law, board a vessel with guns blazing.
I mean, when Israel is facing an existential threat from the population it is trying to displace & oppress, all options are on the table, right? If it kills civilians from other nations in the process, thats ok. Israel doesn't have to abide by international laws. It doesn't have to worry about human rights! Anyone who expects it does is an anti-semite, right?
Thanks for that update, troll.
US troops need to be pulled from Iraq and sent into Israel ASAP!!!! The state of Israel is a KNOWN international terrorist organization KNOWN to have WMDs. They MUST be stopped NOW!!!
for the USS Liberty.
Hell, they used the USS Liberty for target practice. And like it was a cover-up then, this will be too. Israel can do no evil, didn't you know that?
Democratic Party progressive, Vietnam veteran and proud Union member for 41 years
Iran should have a bomb....
or perhaps two....
Because that will fix everything. Another bomb. Good idea.
Israel has revealed that they have nuclear capability.
So if they're so callous and irresponsible as to attack an aid convoy, what's to keep them from lobbing a nuke on similar pretenses at their Arab neighbors?
Killing 16 when boarding a ship that's attempting to break a blockade is the step just before dropping a nuke?
By that logic, Pakistan must have annihilated India 20 times over with all of those incursions into Kashmir and Jammu....
Oh, wait, we're talking about Israel...They drink babies' blood there, don't they? Never mind...
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Such a good choice of MSM weasel words to demean international aid workers.
"terrorist supporters" later today.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
be here today. It's a holiday. You will just hear the "best of right wing radio." I wonder how they pick their best of broadcast. There isn't any best ofs.
Just another Jonestown massacre by true believers fearing the rules of humanity might be imposed by the outside world...without the Kool Aid of course.
authoritarian "demockcrazies" end up eating their own feces after a while.
They get too cocky.
Multiple verifiable attacks on Isreal from the Gaza strip, and everyone speaks ONLY of Isreal being the agressors? I'm sure I'm missing something, like some kind of reason those attacks were all justified, but come on now. It seems to me there is plenty of blame to go around, and has been for quite some time.
You may all go ahead and yell at me now. Although for once, I wouldn't mind some civility in your arguments.
... that Hamas is the ruling political party in Palestine, after the United States funded the Fatah Party and ignored reports that Hamas was in a position to claim power?
You're arguing to first causes, which is the routine mindless gibbering that keeps this whole mess in place. Aggression on both sides should be called out fairly and with equal criticism. Isreal doesn't get a discount because the Bible says the Jews were persecuted, God wants them to have the land, and/or Hitler was a bastard.
...what their holy books say on the issue, or how bad the Jews were persecuted. What I do base my opinions on is that for many years, Palestinian extremests have been blowing the crap out of coffee houses, training their children to join the infetadeh with Mickey Mouse style characters, and lobbing missles from civilian areas, thereby guaranteeing civilian deaths of their own people. It just seems to me that culpability is pretty heavily on one side here. I just call it like I see it. But I'm willing to listen to rational arguments that run contrary to my percieved notions. I just haven't heard them yet.
"An eye for an eye" is a commandment for proportionality. When Israel starts adhering to this law, we can talk about Israel's victimhood.
Palestinians stop training their children from birth to "kill all infedels", Isreal can let it's guard down. If you never know where the nuts are coming from, you're bound to have a hair trigger. Doesn't make it right, just human nature.
it would be the same if Israeli children weren't taught that Arabs were less than dogs from birth and "Kill all Arabs,"
"Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac." -- George Orwell
And just what do you think Israel is training its children in this picture?
http://entropy.homelinux.org/blog/wp-content/...
I'm subsidizing the Zionazis. Feel free to kill each other, just don't make me pay for it.
other crimes.
I read an interesting article recently on Syria's insane anti-semetic propaganda too. Another wrong.
Israel can not duck responsibility for this by saying others have been wrong before.
This is basic morality, something most children know in any of the Judeo-Christian religions. Trying to deflect blame in this manner does a disservice to all religions, and makes Israel lose more moral high ground than usual since they do pride themselves on the integration of morality and state.
Perhaps crippling blockades of any humanitarian aid would suffice?
.
is intended to be a factual statement
flag pins...(just like Obama's)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ww...
http://www.pflp.ps/english/files/images/obama...
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hefIti-uFUo&fe...
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