Open Thread: Big Three Testify in Congress
[Video: Protesters interrupt Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont.]
The representatives of the Big Three came back to Congress with tin cups in hand today, and you can watch them on most of the news channels today.
Humbled U.S. automakers pleaded with Congress Thursday for an expanded $34 billion rescue package, but heard fresh skepticism in a bumpy encore appearance.
“We made mistakes, which we’re learning from,” General Motors chief executive Rick Wagoner told the Senate Banking Committee.
Ford CEO Alan Mulally also acknowledged big mistakes, saying his company’s mantra once was “You build it, they will come.”
As Chuck Schumer observed, the problem is that they seem to want their bailout without setting the conditions first. Ain't gonna fly that way, fellas.
"they seem to want their bailout without setting the conditions first."
And why wasn't it this way with the financials?
Wall Street has all of the politicians in their pockets.
n/t
Wall Street has THEIRS in all of the POLITICIAN'S POCKETS.
It is the INVISIBLE HAND of the marketplace:
That would be the HAND stuffing the CASH in the ENVELOPES.
Detroit has been seriously outbid.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
This is the best Government that Wall Street could buy.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
drive or fly?
They drove
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
When you go to a bank to apply for a loan, there are all sorts of conditions set before they hand you the money. They should have expected this and been prepared.
Michael Moore was on Countdown last night and he made some great points about how the banks were given the money with no strings, yet the auto companies are being asked to jump through hoops.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
One of the hoops is that GM promises to lay off 30,000 more workers and close 9 plants. That will be 30,000 more families that can't afford to buy a new car!?
Proof that Bush isn't the only rich, thoughtless, dumbass fucking up the Nation.
Paulson originally asked for an inauditable, irreversible, unregulated black box of money to be distributed at whim.
There is a name for a business without books, or books you can open: organized crime.
It's kinda weird for the Congress to be beating up on these guys now after allowing a Wall Street insider - Paulson - to simply loot the US Treasury on behalf of his friends.
Congress should have smelled a mouse when Paulson first came to them and cried wolf about the credit situation. Every time this administration has said do this or we're all gonna die, it has turned out to be the very opposite of what needed to be done.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Everyone who was within 10 miles of mortgage origination knew that the notes that were being generated from the mid-1990s on were, in underwriting terms, increasingly toxic - but in our historical moment they were, due to the changes in security law, being sold to the entire world. Global S&L crisis, now starring the largest finance houses in the world and all the central banks in the west.
If Obama wants to gain some credibility as a fact-based regulator, he has to tell the world, a house is not a casino chip, it doesn't require 17 levels of financial engineering to finance and that the US is rolling back wrongheaded disregulation and changes in security laws during the Clinton and Bush years that have been so catastrophically abused.
It's not a matter of cleaning up the books momentarily with a cash infusion but of stopping the production and shipment of toxic paper into the financial system.
It's fine to demand conditions and concessions from, and oversight of, the automakers in return for their proposed loan. Why wasn't the same scrutiny applied to the banks and financial companies, who received MORE THAN 20 TIMES the amount being asked for today?
... did Congress submit to the same fear-and-loathing techniques for the Wall Street bailout, they're showing the same day-late, dollar-short spinal growth.
More importantly, the American taxpayer is paying the bill TWICE. The government collects taxes on a regular basis; this is like receiving a paycheck. You do not get a second paycheck for having spent all of the first.
It is contingent upon the financials and the automakers to repay their bailout packages, but we can pretty much be assured they won't pay a stinking cent.
Since Congress just got through signing a blank check for $750 Billion, I can't say that I believe the above statement.
... because the automakers don't have Henry bin Paulson threatening doom and gloom if they hesitate.
Perhaps it’s because of the uproar caused by the $750 billion blank check that they’ve figured out that they actually need to figure out how the money is going to be spent (or at least put on a good show) before handing it out.
I can hope?
This is so typical. Extremist Capitalism doesn't work, it's as bad as Communism. Capitalism and Communism fail for the same reasons. Now we have honkey white piles of shit who have fucked the United States over for decades with their 40 million dollar retirement packages and their shoddy, piles of crap cars coming to the Socialist Welfare feeding troph yet once again.
Fuck 'em, I say. Let them die.
Don't fall for the distraction. While this particular industry is important, we need to remain focused on the real roots of the problem. The big banking/financial industry, credit default swaps, the Federal Reserve Bank, etc. It's easy to focus on the cars because we all understand them. But we need to dig deeper and stay focused.
This is sort of like a divorce. The American people have decided to divorce themselves from American made cars and the car makers want enough money from us to continue to live the lifestyle to which they have become accustom.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Is in the middle of a constitutional crisis.
This has A Significant Impact on this Big3 bailout. Why? Because A VERY Large Percentage of your crappy cars are built in Canada.
Because American news and American Blogs don't pay jack sh*t attention to anything outside the USA if it isn't being invaded, you probably don't know what's going on. But, in a nutshell, PM Harper just pulled a "nuclear option" and prorogated Parliament, which means that effectively NOTHING will get done until Parliament comes back on Jan 26. He did this because, well, HE'S AN ASS.
So, if you think ANYTHING is going to really happen on the bailout front before February, you're smoking some bad weed, because of all the contracts and interwoven agreements.
Here's the news in a nutshell:
1. Canada has more than 2 parties. It effectively has 4, but the Greens pull significant voter percentages (900,000 last time, which would be 8,600,000 scaled up to the USA), but no seats, so it's like 4.5 parties. The Parties are: The Conservative Party, The Liberal Party, The NDP (democratic semi-socialist), the Bloc Quebecois, and the Greens.
2. Harper's Conservatives won a minority gov't in October. (39%)
2a. This resulted in the Liberal Leader, Dion, to resign effective in May at the next Liberal convention.
3. Harper sent in a funding bill that would cut funding to all political parties. He can do this because the conservatives have MASSIVE backing in the business community.
3a. Such a budget bill, if it failed to pass would be seen as a failure of confidence vote, and kick a new election.
4. The other parties about had a stroke and on Monday the NDP and Liberals declared a coalition, and the bloc was so pissed, they said "sure - we have no opposition to this", and announced opposition to the budget.
5. Harper withdraws parts of the budget.
6. the coalition sticks and if it comes to Parliament, it would put Harper out on the street almost instantly.
6a. It would put Dion in as PM, but he's already resigned as of May...
7. Harper appeals to the Governor General, the Queen's rep in Canada, and asks her to prorogate Parliament. It's basically a reset button. All legislation gets cleared off the table, and NOTHING get done until it convenes (x) number of days i nthe future: 26 Jan 09.
8. The gov. Gen. being a rubberstamp, said "sure, goferit ya hoser."
So, now Canada (effectively) has NO DELIBERATORY GOVERNMENT. No legislation can pass, no bailouts can be effected, NOTHING WILL GET DONE until 26 January, basically everything is on life support - right in the middle of the great economic clusterf*ck in 100 years.
Remember: Canada is your biggest trading partner, and has all the oil and water in this part of the world (and the oil you've effectively stolen - does Canada have an SPR? Nooooo...), and it makes jillions of cars for the big 3, and it has a massive production sector that is at great risk thanks to the idiotic fiscal shenanigans "down south".
This is a major Major MAJOR issue, but of course there hasn't been a peep in the American press, alternative or otherwise, because y'all are too busy navel gazing with Obama and rearranging the deck chairs in your banking industry to notice or care what's going on next door.
Thanks.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
So where is the problem?
You just identified it! We been watching "What me Worry?" for almost 8 years.
just pretending?
Let's pretend you're not retarded and go over this for a moment.
Let's say you're GM and you've got a plant in Ontario somewhere. You like the plant. The workers are educated, and they all have basic health because the GOVERNMENT says so. And you have a plant in that particular location because THE GOVERNMENT gave you a deal to do it. And moving parts and cars across BORDERS is something the GOVERNMENT controls. And so if you want to radically restructure your business you will need to deal with the GOVERNMENT, and if you want the GOVERNMENT to help you keep that plant in Onatiro open, you need a GOVERNMENT to talk to. So, goverments don't trade, but governments are required for trade to occur, and if the government of YOUR BIGGEST TRADING PARTNER is comatose until mid January, you're pretty well stuffed.
So, THAT'S the problem, troll.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
As a Candian overseas, thanks for putting it all in a nutshell for me. There is no news of Canada outside Canada. I laughed out loud at... "sure, goferit ya hoser."
Harper is a dick.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Good summary of what is going on up here. Harper tried to "Bush" federal employees by taking away the right to strike and other things, hidden in his budget.
I've been watching the hearings...fascinating. And I have to conclude that many of the posters here haven't.
Did you see the protesters a little while ago?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
when you equate the 3 million jobs lost [good paying ones]
you must also think of the 6 times that many jobs that are supported by good paying manufactering jobs, that's a total of 24 million jobs lost
soooo ANYONE who can say 'let em fail ' must be an idiot
P.S. this was brought to you by your favorite gop representative
Maybe for the sake of the employees and all the related businesses some help is needed but you can't just keep shoveling money at a failed company and expect things to change.
While there is truth in what you say, the big 3 are using this as a sort of ransom/leverage, which is what terrorists do, and the US government does not bargain with terrorists, no matter how many die. Remember????? "Your" rules, not mine.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
They are a corporation. The corporation is obligated to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Begging is allowed, there's no rule against it and they don't care where the money comes from. Apparently, if the auto execs can make 20 billion begging on the streets of Washington D.C., that's an acceptable way to make the company money.
And it's up to the people and the people's representatives to stop them. WE are the ones who fail every time one of these ridiculous bailout packages is passed to prop-up dying companies.
You 3 dummys just raised it from 24billion to 39?...WTF?...NO let's go back to the 24. A LOAN ONLY... Yes we want to save jobs,but at what cost? Here's 1 billion, now prove you can run a business,come back in 6 months and report. Now get back in your gas eaters and GET TO WORK!
Until people have jobs and the ones who still have a job feel financially secure, no one is going to be buying much of anything, the least of which is a car..unless it's an emergency. When Paulson cried wolf it was heard around the country. The first thing the people did was get a tighter grip on every dollar they had. That's not going to end until financial confidence returns to the country. What it would take to make that happen is beyond me.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
... corporate executives whinge and moan about how they're sacrificing so hard when they've been taking millions home for years.
We've heard this before, when the widow of Kenneth Lay wailed that the judgment would leave them 'destitute.'
Well, if the big 3 fail that record is going to balloon.
if you have watched any of these hearing s , have you noticed that republicans hate unions???
I think Michael Moore's comments last night about the comparison between how Congress treated the financial companies a couple months ago and how they are treating the Big Three Auto Makers was on the money. They worked so hard to give Wall Street money, and they didn't look to find out whether any Wall Street executive drove a hybrid to the hearings. But they rake the Big Three guys over the coals. The executives of Wall Street and the Big Three are all morons, so why the preferential treatment?
I noticed there was a chart that showed the amount of money given to each company to show how insignificant the automotive bailout was. Small amount of money for a company that is too big to fail. Is Wal-mart to big to fail? People vote with their dollars and the people have spoken.
is a sure fire way to delude oneself...
the notion that one dollar = one vote isn't democracy, it is oligarchy.
just sayin'
my motto: if it is too big to fail it needs to be broken up
It's clear that the Republicans, especially Bob Corker (R.Tn) and Shelby (R.-Ala) want to force these auto companies into bankruptcy as soon as possible. They seem to be willing to do anything they can to tell these guys that Chap. 11 is the only way to get funding.
It will probably end up that way and the unemployment rate will hit 15% of THEIR watch.... These people should be talking heads of Larry Kudlow's 'fools and liars' program instead of US Senators...what a DISGRACE..
Congressmen Corker and Shelby want to the Detroit 3 to enter bankruptcy to destroy the UAW, plain and simple. They aren't looking out for taxpayers, only the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Let's also not forget that Tennessee and Alabama are home to several automotive plants, that don't rely on old fashion union labor.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.phoenixjustice.com
corker and shelby , two COMPLETE assholes
that's right boys the union wrecked em
these people are slime and i wo/nt even drive through their states
right now that puke croocker is still spewing his idiocies
the only way a person can make the equivalent of 150 dollars an hour without a college education is through entrepreneurship, usually selling drugs, or being part of a union. Why do corker and shelby want to deny those of what is rightfully theirs???
I'm with you
What union do you work for, I want to join.
The one that sets an artificial pay rate i suppose
150 an hour? hey asshole i worked for the uaw , and you could not be farther from the truth
try 28 an hour and benefits that were all negotiated through contracts in leiu of wages
and they start at $14-16/hour...
for 150/hr i would move to detroit
Look at the Red states. They just want to get the car business instead of MI. just as they welcomed Toyota.Though the far right fundies tend to be isolationist they still need money. The senator's only care about their state's well being, not Americas and its the far right that put these guys in their seats. Is that wrong? They'll have unions one day you can bet on it. I've heard nobody compare cost of living down south vs MI. as it relates to worker pay. I'm sure the south will not be happy when they are paying for unemployed people in mass as they break their backs on the assembly lines or maybe they won't mind? After our depression and when most of the greed is flushed out, maybe we will learn something? We already learned something on Nov. 4th and something to keep in mind, we were not helped by the fundies. What will happen will happen. I look forward to the challenges ahead. Happy Holidays :-P
Study the symptoms not the virus...
and won't set a factory in the South if they can help it.
I have some horror stories from a colleague while he was bringing up a production line in Alabama. Most new factories have been set up in Canada or Mexico.
Thanks for the info.
I wonder what bearing NAFTA had on their choices?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
This was SKF, a Swedish outfit and I believe the biggest ball bearing manufacturer in the world (and without ball bearings nothing moves). They initially set up some lines in the US, mostly to navigate some of the arbitrary tariffs the US tends to slap on imports.
The experience was horrible, rather than the massive tax breaks they got... the organization ended up deciding to open their next lines maybe in Canada. No matter how great a tax break is, when you end up having to train workers via picture cards (ala sesame street)... something went really, really wrong. Now Canada offers more skilled labor, and Mexico cheaper labor, and both allow the bypassing of the tariffs.
Tax breaks can only go so far when the lack of infrastructure, and the lack of skilled labor is suffocating. Interestingly enough, it seems that is the only play in the GOP playbook: tax breaks. They are a good thing to get the ball rolling, but you need to invest in order to grow an industrial ecosystem that will be self sustainable in the end. Not, siree bob, not for these morons in charge of some states in the South.
Let's step back a moment and forget that Majority Leader Reid and Speaker Pelosi are dimwitted assholes. Let's not forget though, that the Federal Reserve has pretty powerful tools at its disposal.
One of those tools would be to circumvent Congress by loaning Ford Motor Credit, GMAC and Chrysler Financial the monies the Detroit 3 need to stay afloat. The credit arms of the Detroit 3 would then "loan" their corporate parents the monies given by the Federal Reserve.
This, might actually be the best move to help shore up the Detroit 3, no matter our misgivings about them.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.phoenixjustice.com
that is the wet dream of the market fundies when it comes to the big3.
they are salivating over the potential to destroy the UAW.
i say: fire all of the upper mgt, and nationalize (not expropriate) the US auto sector. with the clause that we, the taxpayers, will have a say in the operation.
exactly the opposite of what we should have done for citigroup. i would have let citigroup go under. sorry rubin! *cough* asshole *cough*
Flew fucking HIGH for the bankers...
there's more than a little class-warfare at work here, folks.
companies that actually build shit, they gotta have a plan.
outfits that just trade shit around and rake off the cream, they get a fucking free pass.
that's just bullshit, is what it is...
of course, the stakes are high. the corpoRats are striving mightily to make it possible to renege on Union contracts...they wanna kill the UAW...
General strike.
Fuck'em...
The funny thing, I used to live in Europe and I ended up admiring the coordination of the labor movement over there. Unions in most EU countries can literally paralyze their whole country with a few days notice. I was told by a friend that there is no other way to deal with the elite when playing chicken with collective bargaining, if you don't put your foot down... they will just continue taking and taking until you end up with nothing. It is their nature (bankers, elites, etc) they can't help it, in fact that is why they are at the top. However, every now and then, the people who do the real job need to remind these pricks that there are more of us than them.
Unfortunately there are too many idiots in the American middle and low classes still buyin the whole "American Dream" bullshit.
All the pigs are lining up at the trough. Some go away sated, and crack open the champagne, others continue to scratch around in the dirt. There's no rhyme or reason, it's who you know. It's the legacy of the GOP and Bushco.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
The Big 3 are failing because of their own ignorant actions. Throwing money at a sinking ship will not make it float. Let them drown, then let them come back and do it right. Or let them suffer the same consequences.
NOBODY 2012
The Big 3 are failing because the US has no national health plan, no tarrifs to reduce imports, no national education plan and no one in charge for the last 8 years.
The products produced by the Big 3 are second to none.
The big financials are failing because of their own ignorant actions. You seemed to confuse the issue.
The problem created by the financials caused the problem with the Big 3. No credit,no sales!
All three company's CEOs want to borrow far more than their stock is worth. These people should be pilloried, tarred and feathered, and run out of town!
since the government will most likely end up "eating" the pensions and other debt obligations, buying the big three for their common stock price may make actual business sense.
Nationalize, re target, and reuse the production facilities towards profitable clean transportation. Employ a bunch of expert to try out new approaches, revitalize the American industry, keep people working.
Naaaah, that would make way to much sense for these "bizness" geniuses.
Also, it is quite telling to see the republicans hell bent in diminishing the contractual obligations of the big 3 with their employees. It seems the GOP throws a fuse whenever the law prevents a fetus from being harmed, but the prospect of having the law enforced in order to prevent hundreds of thousands of adults from being forced out of their earnings and future retirement... and thus forced into poverty. Well, that is sort of OK with them.
what electric cars can do!
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/5...
cars (what a thoughtful [sincere. NOT!] gesture!). but they still DO NOT HAVE A BUSINESS PLAN that would help them climb out of the hole they have put themselves in. Instead of repeated trips to DC to ask for yet more tax payer money, when are they going to offer a solid plan to retool and to put out products that people WANT to buy, products such as seriously fuel efficient cars, more hybrids or why doesn't GM talk about reviving its electric car or why don't they seriously go about developing hydrogen powered cars and trucks to get us off of the oil/gas treadmill? They have not said word one about any serious plans to change and improve and produce the types of vehicles that America wants to buy. As long as they don't offer real solutions, they should not get any taxpayer money. When they start acting seriously and offer serious solutions then maybe they could be eligible for assistance. But, until then, they are not committed to making any of the changes that they need to make to be competitive and to give America the products that America wants to buy and that we need to switch to. All they seem to be doing right now is protecting their bottom line by seeking loans so they don't have to shoulder the financial burden themselves and let the American tax payers foot the bill. That's not right. They need to seriously change. And, as long as they are not willing to do that, they do not deserve support.
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