Pelosi outrages wingnuts with cold truth: Immigration raids are "un-American"
Greater Wingnuttia wants to get all in an uproar about Nancy Pelosi's remarks the other night in San Francisco before a pro-immigrant gathering:
"Who in this country would not want to change a policy of kicking in doors in the middle of the night and sending a parent away from their families? It must be stopped. ... What value system is that? I think it's un-American."
Of course, Michelle Malkin and her wingnutospheric band of flying monkeys are in a nice little tizzy about this.
The clip also has been all over Fox News. Sean Hannity was all outraged about it Thursday night, and then yesterday it turned up again with the "All Star Panel."
But Juan Williams -- who often goes soft on liberal issues -- hit back hard at Charles Krauthammer, affirming that, indeed, these kinds of raids are un-American. He also managed to get to the heart of the matter -- namely, that our immigration laws themselves are profoundly un-American:
Williams: That's an unjust, wrongheaded law, and you see people who are benefiting this economy, people who are struggling for American values, absolutely being abused. It's an outrage.
Krauthammer: Controlling our borders is un-American?
Williams: It's not controlling our borders to go knocking on somebody's door in the middle of the night!
Krauthammer: You're enforcing the law.
Williams: You're enforcing an unjust law, and they are right to challenge it. She's saying it's wrong.
Williams is right, while Krauthammer is, well, Krauthammer. Ever since Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents began their campaign of massive raids last spring, they have terrorized Latino communities -- including the substantial portion of those communities that are here legally. There was also, from the outset, a decided and obvious racial component to the raids.
Perhaps the most searing indictment of the raids was Roberto Lovato's portrayal in The Nation of the situation in Georgia:
From the living room of the battered trailer she and her mother call home, Mancha described what happened when she came out of the shower that morning. "My mother went out, and I was alone," she said. "I was getting ready for school, getting dressed, when I heard this noise. I thought it was my mother coming back." She went on in the Tex-Mex Spanish-inflected Georgia accent now heard throughout Dixie: "Some people were slamming car doors outside the trailer. I heard footsteps and then a loud boom and then somebody screaming, asking if we were 'illegals,' 'Mexicans.' These big men were standing in my living room holding guns. One man blocked my doorway. Another guy grabbed a gun on his side. I freaked out. 'Oh, my God!' I yelled."
As more than twenty Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents surrounded the trailer, said Mancha, agents inside interrogated her. They asked her where her mother was; they wanted to know if her mother was "Mexican" and whether she had "papers" or a green card. They told her they were looking for "illegals."
After about five minutes of interrogation, the agents--who, according to the women's lawyer, Mary Bauer of the Southern Poverty Law Center, showed no warrants and had neither probable cause nor consent to enter the home--simply left. They left in all likelihood because Mancha and her mother didn't fit the profile of the workers at the nearby Crider poultry plant, who had been targeted by the raid in nearby Stilwell. They were the wrong kind of "Mexicans"; they were US citizens.
That was in one state. As I described elsewhere, this happened all over the country, producing scenes like the one in Idaho:
One family with members who are U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents said they were terrified by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents who came to their home in the predawn hours accompanied by Blaine County sheriff's deputies. No one in their home was arrested.
"They pounded on my door so hard that my walls shook," Dana Ayala, a Wood River Valley resident and U.S. citizen, told the Idaho Community Action Network. "My 19-year-old son opened the door to see what was happening, and six agents armed with guns, Tasers and flashlights pushed their way into my home."
... "It is clear that ICE agents terrorized the community, including U.S. citizen children who were sleeping when the raid occurred," said Leo Morales, a community organizer for ICAN. "In several homes, children were left crying as ICE agents interrogated parents and hauled them away.
Testimonies gathered on Tuesday also indicated that in several instances ICE agents walked into the home looking for individuals not living there, then arrested the people in the home with no proof of immigration status.
In some instances, federal agents rushed into the house when a child opened the door."
Once arrested, the detainees were treated like cattle, too. The most public of these raids was the mass crackdown in Postville, Iowa, where the federal legal apparatus crossed the line into outright police-state behavior.
The most pointed portrait of this came in the form of an essay by Erik Camayd-Freixas, a Spanish-language court interpreter who was called in to help process detainees in the raid. It makes the devastating case that the Department of Homeland Security, in collusion with the Justice Department, is (in the words of one observer we heard from about this case) "basically gaming the Federal judiciary using existing law, rules and regulations to force the judiciary to act as a coerced agent of the executive to imprison undocumented workers, after which they are deported with a prison record."
As Camayd-Freixas makes clear, these workers were charged improperly with a crime of which they were innocent as the means of forcing them to plead guilty to a lesser charge, for which they then accepted five-month prison sentence.
The New York Times, in reviewing the evidence, editorialized:
Under the old way of doing things, the workers, nearly all Guatemalans, would have been simply and swiftly deported. But in a twist of Dickensian cruelty, more than 260 were charged as serious criminals for using false Social Security numbers or residency papers, and most were sentenced to five months in prison.
What is worse, Dr. Camayd-Freixas wrote, is that the system was clearly rigged for the wholesale imposition of mass guilt. He said the court-appointed lawyers had little time in the raids’ hectic aftermath to meet with the workers, many of whom ended up waiving their rights and seemed not to understand the complicated charges against them.
I particularly found this portion of Camayd-Freixas' essay chilling:
When the executive responded to post-9/11 criticism by integrating law enforcement operations and security intelligence, ICE was created as “the largest investigative arm of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)” with “broad law enforcement powers and authorities for enforcing more than 400 federal statutes”. A foreseeable effect of such broadness and integration was the concentration of authority in the executive branch, to the detriment of the constitutional separation of powers. Nowhere is this more evident than in Postville, where the expansive agency’s authority can be seen to impinge upon the judicial and legislative powers. “ICE’s team of attorneys constitutes the largest legal program in DHS, with more than 750 attorneys to support the ICE mission in the administrative and federal courts. ICE attorneys have also participated in temporary assignments to the Department of Justice as Special Assistant U.S. Attorneys spearheading criminal prosecutions of individuals. These assignments bring much needed support to taxed U.S. Attorneys’ offices”. English translation: under the guise of interagency cooperation, ICE prosecutors have infiltrated the judicial branch. Now we know who the architects were that spearheaded such a well crafted “fast-tracking” scheme, bogus charge and all, which had us all, down to the very judges, fall in line behind the shackled penguin march. Furthermore, by virtue of its magnitude and methods, ICE’s New War is unabashedly the aggressive deployment of its own brand of immigration reform, without congressional approval.
This, I suspect, may be what Pelosi had in mind in her fuller remarks on this matter:
"Also of great importance to the border communities is of course the issue of immigration. And by that I mean we need comprehension immigration reform. For the first time in a long time, the opportunity exists to enact comprehensive legislation. President Obama has made this a priority for his Administration. I know that yesterday he met with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus to reiterate his commitment to immigration reform.
"The CHC, Congressional Hispanic Caucus, has long taught the House Democratic Caucus and indeed the entire Congress what comprehensive immigration reform would look like. It would of course, secure our border, it would protect our workers, it would prohibit the exploitation of workers coming into our country and it would unite our families. Family unification is an important principle of our immigration and always has been.
"About a week and a half ago, Congressman Gutierrez was in San Francisco on a Saturday night. We were packed and jammed in St. Anthony's Church, hundreds and hundreds of people came. We heard from families who have had raids into their homes and into their families where families were separated. And at the time, I said it there and I'll say it here, that raids that break up families in that way, just kick in the door in the middle of the night, taking father, a parent away, that's just not the American way. It must stop. It's just not the American way. So we need this comprehensive reform, and we need it soon. And we need to stop those kinds of ICE raids in the meantime.
The wingnuts may stamp their feet and have a fit. But what must really anger them -- and maybe frighten them a little -- is the knowledge that a lot of Americans very much agree with her.
"Who in this country would not want to change a policy of kicking in doors in the middle of the night and sending a parent away from their families?"
Wasn't it the wingnuts who flipped out over Elian Gonzales?
Cubans are a special case. (read: Cuban voters are more likely than Mexican voters to support Republicans)
What are you looking for, consistency?
From the anti-pork crusadors who brought you Don Young?
If only someone would kick down the doors and FOX and send those un-American reich wing propagandists out of the country.
Pelosi has no problem with selective americanisms
you know, there is an incredibly simple method for "addressing" any immigrant problem and it doesn't take more law or more enforcement but it works more effectively then any other method;
jail the employer, fine them all the money they think they've saved useing undocumented labpr
bing, problem solved
jail the employer, fine them all the money they think they've saved using undocumented labor
Exactly. They're coming here for jobs. We don't have an "illegal worker" problem so much as we have an "employers who try get the cheapest labor even if it means hiring those who are in the US illegally" problem. If the job source is eliminated there is no reason to leave home. Go ask any immigrants who came here legally if they want to give up their jobs to someone who came here illegally and and is willing do the job for less.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
yes, just the most agregious violators....but they started
I still don't understand how a nation on immigrants can be so outraged over immigrants.
"Go back to Africa!"
"Go back to Ireland!"
"Go back to Mexico!"
When will these people realize that part of the reason why we've become such a powerful nation is because of our acceptance of immigrants? I think 95% of all "illegal" immigrants would gladly become a citizen if the process was reformed and more accessible. And, if their doors aren't being kicked in.
quit the neocon button pushing of "brown-be afraid". The "black-be afraid" button is finally jamed. Of course, there is always the "arab-be afraid" button to fall back on.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
I think 95% of all "illegal" immigrants would gladly become a citizen if the process was reformed and more accessible. And, if their doors aren't being kicked in.
I think American Exceptionalism gets a little frayed around the edges when you're one of those 'illegalized.' I think a LOT of people who come north for work DO NOT WANT to stay here. This is a corrupt, criminal, bloody, violent, viciously, aggressively acquisitive culture.
If I had some place to "go back to," I'd leave...
Is that what you really meant?
The USA is bankrupt.
We are in Afghanistan because of 911 which involved not one person that is Afghani.
We are illegally occupying Iraq.
Our tax dollars are being given to scam artist at AIG under the guise of needing to keep the lines of credit open.
And when our lawmakers were told that there was a great need for immagrant control and border monitoring, we were merely responded to that the last thing that was needed was to completely close the border. All as a means to ignore the problem and tell he people to shut the fuck up cause the large corporations were needing cheap labor.
Do you know what is going to happen to the dollar if Russia and the UN get there wish to go to another coubtry's currency for a reserve currency? Or if China decides to sell of their US bonds that is becoming more worthless each day?
Did you hear that the Federal Reserve Bank just released a trillion dollars for loans to the big corporations without any say from the President or the congress opr Judiciary?
Ha - Powerful country my lilly white @ss.
now !now! METHINKS great googamoogles , and ods bodkins, you may have something there third world john!but i doubt it will register with folks ,its to simple ,to straight forwards , to ahead of the packs reasoning,
The realit is that i's not that difficult...We just did it. My wife is Venezuelan and just got her "green card"...you have to go to the embassy, apply for a visa, fill out some forms (quite a few, but nothing outlandish) , pay some money (much less than a lot of mules charge to sneak you across the border) and submit to a physical exam and a BACKGROUND CHECK. THAT's the CATCH! It's the Background Check. If you are a criminal with an arrest record you can't get a visa. A LOT of these illegals are people who would not pass a background check...they have arrest records in wherever it is they came from.
...background checks.
The INS issues only so many immigrant visas per year. Preference is given to spouses of US citizens, people who are sponsored by other family members who are US citizens and those sponsored by employers. I thought I'd read there's a per-nation-quota system, too, but I'm still searching for some links on that. But here's the Immigration and Nationality Act.
On edit: Upon further study...the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 retained a quota system on a nation-by-nation status. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 amended this by allowing immigration per hemisphere: 170,000 immigrants per year from the Eastern Hemisphere, with no more than 20,000 immigrants from any single nation, and 120,000 immigrants from the Western Hemisphere on a first come, first served basis.
If I'm reading this correctly, these are the numbers for immigrants who aren't allowed in because of familial or job-related reasons.
So while I'm sure that there are people who are turned away because of a criminal background, there are probably a much, much greater number who are denied visas because they are too far back in the line.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Granted, they did come here illegally from Mexico, but once they tried in earnest to legalize their status, they got the fucking runaround for *years* before finally sorta giving up hope and returning to Mexico for a few years before they tried again while staying in Mexico. They still got quite a bit of runaround, but finally, after a lot of work from their American born daughter-in-law, a letter of recommendation from my mother and I, and some other efforts, they are finally here legally.
They deserve it, they are wonderful people who took care of me during a difficult time in my family's life, for no money when they didn't have much themselves. The father of the household had been a (clean) cop back in Mexico.
Their only "crime," was being poor.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Being poor is always the crime. Black white, or brown.
We might as well have little yellow stars of david on and be hanging out in Germany in 1941 and see how lucky we all are.
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
as un-American as it gets, for whatever purpose, IMHO.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
...terrorising everyone lately!
Dem and repub political demonstrators are jailed, War protesters are put on lists, Libertarians are put on the "suspected terrorist list" in Missouri, Homeland Security "watch list" has a million fuckin' names on it.
All I have to say to the Latin American victims is (sorry about our out of control govt) and....welcome to the club!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
It's not un-american, it's un-human.
Unfortunately, American is not synonymous with humane.
American is not synonymous with humane, any longer...
Canadians used to be for whats right, but now it's more what Israel thinks is right. I warned people that our media was being bought up, but no one listens to me...
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
is part of the Agenda, you've not been paying very good attention.
Govt's MUST instill fear in their citizens, to ensure docility, compliance, passivity.
When the Cops come through your door at night, they WANT and NEED you to quiver in fear. That's the point. And if you're not the target, that doesn't matter either, cuz there's nothing you can do about it if the pigs are acting "in good faith...."
When they shoot your grandmother...
...naivete.
I most certainly have become somewhat distrustful and fearful of govt lately and thusly welcome all (native Americans from Latin America) to the fearful environment that is America today.
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
To determine if any policy is good or bad for this country I just find out if Malkin, Hannity, Limbaugh support it and know that 95% of the time the policy is bad for the country.
Until you get a midnight break-in into a Hormel or Crider plant exec, and hold their family at gunpoint, don't tell me that this is "American."
Not that that should happen to those families either. It's just that these tactic's smell so like the Gestapo or NKVD (early version on KGB), that it absolutely DISGUSTS me that this has been going on.
The immigration issue use to be dealt with by large mobs of people rioting into ethnic communities robbing, beating, rapping, and murdering. In the west these masses drove off Asians in Colorado, Utah, and in Idaho where the population was 40% Chinese in 1869 had a Chinese population of 0% by the census of 1890. One of the reasons for the quaint little China town and other ethnic communities was not a matter of cultural identity by one of basic survival.
Legal immigration is something that is supported for the most part, but the influx of people that are not going to use the established system is placing them in the way of the mob. It hasn’t happened yet; that a mob will drive out an ethnic group but if you were to listen to some of the right wing here in Utah, it would seem to be inevitable.
In my option, the only safe way to enter this country and remain is by the legal channels, anything else will not be acceptable by the masses; including a large portion of members within that ethnic community too.
CF: Mountain Meadow Massacre.
Really a loving people, until pushed too far...
Then they dress up as Indians and kill gentiles for run and profit...
Yeah, I'm gonna let Utah set my priorities...
You got to remember that for the past 15 years or so they were the targets of lethal attacks from the "Christians" in the areas they tried to settle in like Illinois and Nauvoo. The Mountain Meadow Massacre was soon after their founder, and presidential candidate, Joseph Smith was killed in his prison cell by a "Christian" lynch mob.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
You might want to look at the history of this massacre a little more. Smith was killed thirteen years before this incident- not really "soon after". Apologists for the Mormon's actions have referred to tensions related to the "Utah" wars to explain Mountain Meadows. Their migration west appears to have left an apocalyptic and persecuted mindset that left them with the ability to justify this massacre to themselves. In this region that mindset is still around. That might account for some of the militia garbage we always have to deal with.
But I think like Frankenstein this shows society creates it's own monsters and then acts surprised when the monster attacks.
That's true enough today with the immigration issue.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Rule number one, make no rules based on the arbitrary supposed decisions of an unseen, omniscient, and hopefully benevolent "deity".
Especially when you consider they support breaking down doors in ALL COUNTRIES to separate families and to arrest anyone who is a 'threat' to their way of life.
This raids of illegal immigrants are a form of terrorism, and have successfully shut down schools in Portland! Because parents were afraid that the children will trace them back to their homes.
One would have thought that Krauthammer, with his German ancestry, would have recognized these raids as being similar to what the Gestapo did in Nazi Germany against the Jews and to citizens of occupied countries of that time.
This article http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/03/y... in Mother Jones describes the negative effects these raids can have for everyone else in the towns they raid.
I would have thought with the "deression" we are in there would be local people to pick up the slack but damn, they had to bring in people from the south pacific. Just goes to show just how complicated the illegal situation really is.
It looks like the employers of the meatpacking plant, deliberately went out of their way to exploit the system by hiring illegal immigrants. Shouldn't law enforcement have gone in and arrested the employers?
Oh yeah, agree with others stating if you want to stop illegals, arrest those employ them. A few midnight raids and busting down doors of the owners would put the brakes on in a hurry. But as always in this country, it always comes down on those least able to defend themselves.
That reminds me of what happened to General Smedley Butler. The Marines loaned him out to Philadelphia to enforce prohibition. He headed a regular police unit, that in the space of a year destroyed something like 1000 stills, and broke up hundreds of liquor parties. His contract was renewed six months at a time, and it was not renewed after a year, because it was found out he was creating a "tuxedo unit," that would raid the parties of upper-class people, where he had reason to believe minors were being served alcohol.
After he left he made a public comment that prohibition was wrong and being targeted against the poor only, because the rich would always find a way around such laws.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Is the first thing that comes to mind
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
VegasRage
Well said. My comments at 7:52 echo what you have written.
Heck if I can get 10 guys to work for the price of three Americans why the hell not?
Isn't this the real issue?
"competitive darwinism,"
a lot of Americans very much agree with her.
And far too many others have allowed themselves to be whipped into racist hostility by right-wingers.
Try telling people that undocumented immigration does not really create problems (which it doesn't) and they're likely to freak out on you because they've had the word "illegals" drummed into their heads for 15 or so years by an assortment of rightists from Libertarians to Republicans to militia types to DLC Democrats, who in the 90s under Clinton helped militarize the Mexican border and build a wall that dwarfs the Berlin Wall and is totally unnecessary.
The anti-brown-skinned climate has gotten so bad during this period that it's even caused ridiculous "English only" bullshit to infect my home state of Texas, where Spanish-speaking communities have been the norm for centuries. It's gotten so bad that I've heard white people in Austin making hostile comments under their breath when they see brown-skinned women pregnant or with children.
These ICE raids are unprecedented in scope and in police-state cruelty, and they go hand in hand with the massive expansion and privatization of the prison system set in motion by Reagan nearly three decades ago. Americans need to wake up and stop this shit, because a lot more brown-skinned immigrants are being attacked and killed than we hear about because of all the racist hysteria. Check out SPLC data for more on that.
Americans have let evil racists determine their concerns and discourse.
This is total Bullshit! I am completely against illegals who sneak into the US...Race is not a factor..my WIFE IS VENEZUELAN, and about as brown-skinned as they get! She came here LEGALLY, and just got her green card...it wasn't all that difficult nor expensive. Knee-jerk Neo-liberals love to find "racism" behind every bush...the fact that most of these illegals just happen to be Mexican or Latino does not make them any less illegal. You break our laws, you should be prepared to pay the price. Try sneaking into someone else's country and see what happens to you.
If you don't think race has anything to do with it, you're living in a fantasy world. I'm so happy you found yourself a "brown skinned" wife. Congratulations. I'm sure getting a green card was easy for her because SHE'S MARRIED TO AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. Duh.
Look, I agree that we have a problem with human beings who are here illegally, but don't kid yourself- the hardcore backlash in this country is being financed, led and inflamed by nativist organizations who are racist. The minutemen are a good example of that. When they're done with their little rallies in the day light, I guarantee you they don white sheets and burn crosses.
Knocking down people's doors in the middle of the night and ripping children out of the arms of their parents in the name of "law and order" is un-American. And wrong.
And who is really breaking the more serious laws here? The immigrants or the big chicken processing plant in Georgia who's hiring them? Imagine knocking down the door of a CEO in the middle of the night and arresting him. See how long that would last.
Sat, 03/21/2009 - 09:47 — joesixpack
Would little green Martians get little brown cards?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
capnmike
I'm glad things worked out so easily for you. My experience is that you are the exception. I have granted hundreds of leaves of absence over the past ten years so husbands or wives could visit their spouse in a foreign country. They spend years running back and forth jumping through hoops to get the paperwork done (or redone when INS lost it). I have a very good friend that travels to Peru twice a month to see the wife he married over two years ago because they are still trying to work through the system. The irony is I have never had to do this for a "European" employee. Maybe their just lucky.
and i see the problem with illegal immigration
but i suggest you come to california, and see that jobs that helped minorities work their way into the middle class (ie construction) are now being performed by illegals at wages that keep them impovershed
nancy is in the pockets of the corporatists, who love illegal immigration
anything to get rid of the middle class
This problem is a lot more complex than simple racism. I'd love to see a policy based on actual data rather than assumptions and anecdotes. For example, are most illegal immigrants in this country Mexican or even latino? I don't know.
Here in the great northwest, there are plenty of Russian and east Asian immigrants who are undocumented.
To protect and serve?
Since 1980 SWAT teams have increased by 538%. 95% of ALL police departments have acknowledged a parma-military units within their organization. Police are being trained in military tactics with weapons designed solely to kill. When you train police to behave as military units, they act as military units. Military units protect themselves, and kill others.
Originally a response of our failed “War on Drugs” SWAT teams have gone from 3000 no-knock “raids” per year in the 1980’s to over 40,000 per year today. No longer simply drug-related, they are being called out to enforce minor possession charges, renters not paying their rents, small-stakes local gambling, and immigrates not having their “papers” in order.
The tactics of “shock and awe” once used against small countries are now being used in American communities with large groups being illegally stormed, harassed, arrested – or in the case of frequent mistakes – terrorized then let go.
This type of raid IS Un-American. It isn’t necessary, it isn’t called for, it isn’t right; but it is done because they can AND THEY WANT TO.
Why?
What a thrill of these twenty-something former military fighting men who are hired directly from the killing fields in Iraq/Afghanistan to be trained and armed for doing the same in Akron. What a testosterone rush to get geared up en-mass and storm a trailer in the middle of the night where grandma is sleeping.
“GET ON THE GROUND GRANDMA! LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!”
Police in this country do serve a purpose. It is to protect and serve. But they are citizens. When citizens engage in such atrocities, they should be subject to the same laws and penalties as any other citizen – regardless of the organization to which they may belong. Their badge should be a sign of respect; their shield a show of willingness to help others.
It is NOT a license to terrorize.
Taarak-So very accurate ....Ty
LuLu
The first modern police force was the London bobbies, named after their founder, Sir Robert Peel. He had to convince a sceptical British public that they weren't putting armed troops on to their streets. That's why they generally don't carry anything but nightsticks.
They do have their version of SWAT though, but I believe each time they're used they have to be authorized by a higher-up.
That was the distinction in the fictional 007, that he was licensed to kill on his own discretion, but apparently only in foreign countries.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Ceasar crossed the Rubicon in 49bce. It was considered an act of war and prior to that no Roman legion could enter Rome. There was good reason. The military was too powerful, and could be too easily used to undermine the traditional rule of law.
Since 1878 we’ve had the Posse Comitatus Act for the same reason. But just as Ceasar could disregard Roman law, we as a country can now disregard this rule of law in favor of para-military groups like the DEA, the ICE, and military-contractors. Though they are not under the DOD, these groups serve the same purpose – with the same weapons and tactics. They are not traditional "police enforcement" - they are armed and dangerous.
But could Ceasar figure out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTkhA3RO5fU
And after Ceasar crossed the Rubicon was he pissed he couldn't find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhctidk9jIk
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I always thought "Ceaser crossing the Rubicon" could be manipulated into a great menu item, but I never really put together the perfect lexicography.
I'd never make it in marketing.
You're absolutely correct about these organizations: "groups like the DEA, the ICE, and military-contractors."
And they have far too much power, that is the issue! Forcible entry of a property by ICE "officials" to harass these individuals under the guise of supposedly "investigating" for illegals should certainly be against the laws of this country. Terrorizing children and their parents as if they are criminals is apparently the "new American way."
Dynamic Entry is FUN. Ask enough questions of a SWAT member and you'll get to this as the bottom line. I once had a discussion with one of these guys about the transition from a standard uniform to the BDU Combat boot uniform we are familiar with today. His answer to why he needed combat boots? "When you have to stomp someone you'll appreciate those boots". Asked when Stomping people became a police function he stomped away.
Will the real God please stand up
GOOGLE IT!
What is Juan Williams deal?Is he the token negro/liberal over there or what?I'm asking.BTW,Krauthammer actually moonlights as a battering ram in these immigration raids.
"They ain't budgin' chief."
"Alright..*sigh*..get the krauthammer".
"To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And,
at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between,
plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big "thing."
This is truth, to me. "
-Jack Handy
Classic.
getting any Latino votes for a long time. they clearly show by supporting these tactics that they dont want, seriously, any Latino votes. and they wont get them. those Latinos with sense wont vote that way. its one thing to follow the rule of law, but to terrorize innocents, and some are even Americans, and also rig the system to get your way, well its wrong and un-American. Pelosi is right on these tactics.
Never getting my vote!
There are statistics that show, ironically, that the Latinos most likely to vote for the GOP are first generation immigrants. Their grandchildren and great-grandchildren tend to be heavily Democratic (and as a 6th generation Latina, I skipped the Dems altogther; I'm a registered Green).
With the level of contempt for us shown by the GOP, even the first generation is learning that the GOP does not like us very much, and never truly shared our "values."
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
That's how Northerners justified sending escaped slaves back to the South before the Civil War. Of course, Charles Krauthammer couldn't care less if a law hurts others, so long as it doesn't hurt him.
It's called Conservative Compassion, aka: sociopathy.
Having been born in, and lived in, Mexico I see the racism you don't. My parents left Mexico when my Dad was tranfered. Nobody said our family was "torn apart". I had the right to stay, but my parents didn't. Then we moved to France, then the UK. Each time we had to comply with immigration laws. I guess I'm a victim of racist immigration laws more than most. Currently, US Citizens can't work in Mexico except in very limited circumstances and they really enforce it! Why do they enforce their own immigration laws? Racism of course. There are severe restrictions on foreign ownership of property in Mexico. Again, they are racists. And we were always warned by the emabassy not to have 4th of July celebrations for safety reasons. If 8 million Mexicans are allowed legal status in the USA, we should get one-for-one. You have no idea what a 4th of July parade in Mexico City would do. The thought of 8 million english speaking gringos living and voting in Mexico would throw them into fits. They would scream that we are ruining their culture. I guess all immigration laws are racist and unfair. Or, is there a double standard afoot? First worlder's must comply, third worlder's are expempt. Right?
Sure, Frank, whatever you say....
Those laws wouldn't have anything to do with Americans emigrating to northeastern Mexico in the first half of the 19th century, then staging a war to gain independence as the Republic of Texas, does it?
It doesn't have anything to do with the puppet government that the French Emperor Napoleon III set up, with Habsburg Archduke Maximillian as the Emperor of Mexico, stealing land and resources, does it?
It doesn't have anything to do with US mining, oil, cattle and agricultural interests corrupting the Mexican government in the late 19th/early 20th century, grabbing up all the land they could at rock-bottom prices, does it?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Just because Mexico has rough property laws does not justify what our country is up to!
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Is that a reply? And what does Maxiamilliano have to do with modern immigration. If we are to accept them, shouldn't they accept us? Isn't that fair? They keep US citizens from working in their petrochemical and related industries unless absolutely necessary. Most countries have immigration laws they enforce. Nobody here riots on Cinco de Mayo. Have 100,000 gringos march down the Paseo de la Reforma on July 4th and there will be a riot. A visa-for-visa system is fair. Or, we and they should do away with immigration laws and merge the two countries. Or, have 100% open borders and work rules. But, it shouldn't be a one way street.
No one here is condoning Mexico's property and immigration laws. In fact, they suck.
*However*
Their behavior does not justify us trying to beat them in a race to the bottom of decency and making ourselves out to be hypocritical sociopaths.
Unless you like that sort of thing.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
...with US immigration policy. YOU brought it up.
STFU! As if you don't know who preceded whom where. As if the southwestern US wasn't ripped away from Mexico, population as well as land.
As for the "two way street" you talk about in your half-digested first comment: We have that with Canada. The only worries we have with that became high-profile after 9/11 (though if you really pay close attention to the news, there has been a lot of illegal immigration to the US via Canada by Chinese people). I can get through the Canadian border at Detroit or Buffalo as easily as a Canadian can cross the other way (and don't tell me it's about language differences- it's as easy to pass through the border into Quebec as it is to cross into Ontario). I can cross the Mexican border just as easily as I can the Canadian border, but a Mexican can't. Why is that?
Sorry, rhetorical question. You can find the answer in the factories on either side of those borders. Canadians and Americans doing the same work make the same pay. But you compare those wages to what's made by a worker doing exactly the same work in Reynosa, Montrerrey or Mexico city, you start to realize that Mexicans aren't treated the same way. They aren't paid as half as much as Americans or Canadians, which means they don't have half as much to invest in the economy of their own country, which means that their Mexican neighbors don't have as much money for providing them goods and services...and they see how much money is being made for doing the exact same work, and they figure, "What the hell? If I work illegally up north, even if I don't make as much money as someone doing the work legally, I'm still making more than I make in Mexico."
Don't like it? Think someone's taking your rightful job? Here's the solution: quit treating our neighbors as if they're the natives of one of our colonies- pay them a fair wage! Maybe then they won't see someone as a gringo, as someone who's coming down to their country to dominate it once again. Give them the incentive to live in Mexico, and let them cross the border with ease when they want to take their kids to Disney World, or to go hiking in the Rocky Mountains.
Oh, wait, that might take sacrifice on the part of the people of the US of A. Fuck it, then, huh?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Thank you Andy!! Bravo!
And to add onto your comment about his extremely ignorant Cinco de Mayo quote, Frank has a false equivalency by trying compare Cinco de Mayo celebrations in the United States to purely hypothetical 4th of July celebrations in Mexico.
Cinco de Mayo is actually much more celebrated here in the United States than in Mexico, believe it or not, because it's commemorating the Battle of Puebla against the French. Mexico's holiday commemorating their independence from Spain is Dieciséis de Septiembre is more important to them.
If he's looking for an equivalent to Cinco de Mayo, it would be the American celebration of St. Patrick's Day. Lots of people, non-Mexicans included, get into the Cinco de Mayo spirit, as beer sales should likely attest to.
Sounds to me that as the child of immigrants to Mexico, Franky didn't spend much time adapting to the Mexican way of life while he was there. Something people like him can not get enough of bitching about Mexicans not doing for our way of life here!
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
As Thom Hartmann says "We don't have an illegal immigration problem, we have an illegal employer problem". You have employers hiring people they know are here illegally and do it anyway. If employers started getting huge fines when caught doing it they would stop. It wouldn't be economically feasible for them to do it. Obviously, right now it is. No one would come to this country illegally if they knew they wouldn't be hired. That's why people come here and it doesn't matter how many walls or how many patrols you have, because they know they will find work.
Do we even have an illegal immigration/employer problem?
There have always been undocumented immigrants.
We need a sane policy, not a "War on drugs" redux. We need to manage a demand sided issue.
Illegal employees are hired in huge amounts by rich businesses which normally tend to vote republican and newly minted voters usually tend to vote democratic. so both parties gain from it, financially or politically
In the interests of full disclosure: I am a first generation legal immigrant who came to this country to study and stayed back because I fell in love with it and found a family here.
I think the way the raids were conducted were inhumane and certainly seem like the work of a nation that is expressing hate towards immigrants. But I would also like to point out that illegal immigration is one of the fundamental reasons why legal immigration is such a nightmare (ask me, I will spend another5 years waiting to be naturalized permanent resident, although my immigration petition has been approved). A Few conservative and liberal myths about immigration:
Con Myth : There are massive aid programs by the government that the illegals can take advantage of.
False. On the other hand, the government charges you every step of the way and the money is to go towards building american schools and infrastructure. Visa processing for workers is 4000$+ a pop and that money is invested in schools.
Lib Myth: They are here to do the jobs Americans wont do.
False. I have seen such rampant visa abuse in legal immigration, illegal immigration doesnt seem a far cry from it. These low skilled workers are 'contracted' to do jobs that Americans can and will do (70$K a year) but they can send Infosys or Wipro person to do it for 50K on L1 Visa and then the Infy worker just switches jobs to get on H1 and now he is in line for a green card. H1 program is meant for high skilled specialty occupations but it is abused just as L1 is.
Lib Myth: They are hardworking people.
Not all. Not really. A lot of low skilled workers turn towards crime. There are several studies that prove this.
Lib Myth: But they had to use an SSN, stealing it is not a bad thing.
It is. It is and should be a criminal offense.
Con Myth: we have open borders...
False.
Kicking in doors in the middle of the night and dragging people away? Gee, that sounds kinda like something terrorists would do.
It's very, very easy to be a hardliner against illegal immigrants if you don't actually know any personally.
Kinda like Ted Bundy, who allegedly would only murder women he'd spoken to for less than 20 minutes!
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
As someone legally in Korea, I read about illegals all the time. There is no compassion for them here either. They came looking for a better life, but were/are sorely disappointed.
Many come here legally, but their employers abuse them, and often don't pay them. They haven't the money to leave. So they end up slipping under the radar. They do jobs NO KOREAN woulld do, for shit money, long hours, no vacation or weekend/day off, and live in overcrowded "rat-infested" housing conditions. They have no rights. It's sad. These people are trapped in a hellish limbo. When they are caught, it's the same scene I read about in America. Many I have met, are hard-working decent, honest people, that have been shafted.
far left loon >.<
Ironically, I'm sure there's probably been some Koreans here in the USA illegally who are mistreated too...
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
America's voice gives you the opportunity to send Pelosi a suppotive email. Check it out here...
http://americasvoiceonline.org/page/speakout/PelosiReforms
Also - to even talk about immigration as a 'problem' is problematic. Since the dawn of time people have moved. It is part of the human condition. When we look at this as a 'problem' to be 'solved', instead of a 'condition to be managed', is to set ourselves up for frustration and it feeds the wingnuts who think the govt. can't fix anything. This is the cry we hear about the '86 bill (passed under Reagan) that we 'tried amnesty before and it doesn't work'!
That's because nowhere in the bill did we try to manage future flows. We need a dynamic system that adjusts for periods of increased and decreased demands for workers.
"Thank you Speaker Pelosi, for your courage in speaking out for those who are struggling to speak for themselves, and to be heard.
Thank you for fighting for what is right, and what is humane.
As someone who has known and grown up with people who were here illegally, I applaud you for your compassion. Growing up amongst people who have a daily fear that their families will be separated is a humbling experience. I pray that my own neighborhood will never experience these unconsiable immigration raids. My heart breaks at the thought that some of the innocent little faces I see daily could be brutally separated from those they rely upon for their love and care.
Please continue to fight for comphrensive reform that reflects the realities we see in our communities everyday.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- Annaleigh _____ "
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Keep your hands off those poor immigrants and George W. Bush. Impeachment is off the table. Thank You Nancy, you are so righteous and ethical.
Just the other day I was complaining about how disappointed I was when I found out that Juan Williams is an Afro-Latino of Panamanian descent who does not appear to stand up to the xenophones.
Lo and behold, he has shown me to be wrong!
Keep it Juan! :)
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
I support raids as long as they round up and get rid of anchor babies such as Malkin and Jindal.
...but you don't do that by kicking in doors and tearing apart families. You do it by arresting and imprisoning for life those who hire illegal aliens, and by confiscating all their assets. This should include the major corporations as well as restaurants who use illegals as cooks and wait staff, private citizens who hire illegals to mow their lawns, help them move, clean weeds and trash, babysit their kids or for any other purpose.
And don't forget the added problem of drugs. You end that problem by legalizing and taxing all drugs (controlling the substances as we do the even more dangerous drugs alcohol and tobacco) and using the money we now waste on drug interdiction and enforcement to finance drug addiction treatment facilities and public education. We should also crack down hard on legitimate pharmaceutical companies who knowingly overproduce addictive substances and sell them to customers in other countries such as Mexico who then smuggle the drugs into the U.S. to sell them illegally on the streets. Drug smugglers should be shot to death at the border.
Dry up the incentive for Mexicans to avoid their responsibilities to their own nation by running to the United States, and you dry up illegal crossing of our borders.
Another aspect of the situation that I've not seen brought up on this thread is the fact that not all of the undocumented workers are here just to work. Some of them are here trying to escape persecution in their home nations, often Guatemalan. We have quite a few Guatemalan people here in the Midwest who would fit the description of political refugees under any sane immigration policy, but we just cheerfully send them home to face possible imprisonment, torture, and murder. If that isn't inhuman I don't know what is.
Guatemala human rights
Also, people are fleeing Mexico to escape the mess caused by the escalating drug war. The case of Emilio Gutierrez Soto, a journalist who fled to the border with his son after the military threatened to kill him for writing articles about corruption is a case in point:
The number of Mexicans requesting asylum more than doubled from fiscal year 2007 to 2008.
OK. Let me get this straight. It appears to be the case that you are actually in support of this woman?
Do some research before you close your mind about the serious nature of the immigration problem in this country.
More men and women and children have been killed by illegal immigrants since 09/11 than died in 09/11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan COMBINED!
This has nothing to do with race. Given a population of 12-20 million illegal immigrants, if their per capita crime rate is the same as Americans (besides that fact that they enter without inspection), then they will have the same number of rapists, murders, child molesters, etc as American citizens.
However, due to the fact that they are illegal immigrants, pretty much every aspect of their identity is also a fraud. It is common for illegal immigrants to change identities every tax year, claim married 9 on taxes, and also engage in identity theft.
The answer to the problem isn't to make them legal. It is to make them leave.
The individual states have a self defeating issue with money in the Stimulus/Omnibus, when our elected Senators and Congressman promote illegal immigration.
For instance when you have a budget deficit of $47Billion dollars with not much to show for the drain, this extraordinary amount must be going somewhere? Look no further than the policies of "Sanctuary Cities" in the state of California. They have an open border state assembly, judges, mayors and elected officers, that spend your money on free social services for illegal immigrants.
Yes! Our immigration system of laws are broken, mainly because the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli law have never been enforced correctly? The prisons are overflowing, schools are far below average performance and many clinics and hospitals that thrived have closed down.
The powers in Washington have done everything to undermine any new illegal immigration prevention law. One reason is for propagation of the free trade treaties, but the unquestionable movement of cheap labor for the corporate overseer's of our puppet politicians. We are after all a nation run with a minority of corporate elitists. Wall street plays a major roll in how our country is run, and displayed its greed with the AIG bonuses disclosed in the Stimulus/Omnibus
Another massive controversy is the arrogance of Democratic leaders lawmakers who killed the Federal E-verify system of identifying people in the workplace, who illegal and had no right to jobs.
American Workers each day are inundated by foreign nationals in competition, at unskilled, blue collar and even to the management class. E-Verify has been subjected to adverse assessments, by its critics with everything to gain from its destruction. The question is, why send the American people, grandchildren to the poorhouse, when we could remove 40 million (analysis of Heritage Foundation) quartered here.
We underwrite with hundreds of billions of cash benefits and services that should only be for legal masses. Blame Madam Pelosi, Sen. Reid and 48 other legislators who are playing havoc with American worker, by denying ongoing funding for E-verify. It is our only efficient, easy access tool to remove the blemish of so-called undocumented workers.
Read all the ignoble facts kept away from the public view at NUMBERSUSA, JUDICIALWATCH, CAPSWEB. Call your Senator--DEMAND E-VERIFY. 202-224-3121
[Deleted. Dead thread. I know you are just here to flame. Not allowing it-Sitemonitor]
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