Fun with Birth Certificates
By John Amato Sunday Dec 07, 2008 3:00pmPeople forget that not only is Obama's birth certificate being questioned, but if I'm not mistaken so is John McCain's.
The validity of President-Elect Barack Obama's birth certificate continues to stir controversy in the days leading up to the Presidential Inauguration. According to the Los Angeles Times, Justice Clarence Thomas distributed legal papers regarding the Donofrio v. Wells lawsuit.
This lawsuit challenges the assertion that Barack Obama is a "natural born citizen" as defined in the Constitution. The original lawsuit sought not only to remove Obama as an eligible candidate, but also Senator John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone while it was a U.S. possession.
Let's pretend McCain's is up for review just for the heck of it even if he's not. So with that in mind, what happens if the Roberts Court actually takes the case and rules on it. Let's have some fun.
* If Obama loses, does that mean John McCain is the next president?
* McCain loses and is kicked out of the Senate.
* Both are invalidated.If that were to happen:
* Would both parties be given a week to select a new candidate to run and then America would have to put on another general election before January 20th?
* Or would the two runner ups in the primaries, Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee duke it out in a quickie general election held before January 20th?
If you expect the wingnuts to just disappear, you would be mistaken.
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Barry Goldwater was born in a territory, John McCain was born on an US base, and Obama was possibly born in another country. All are American citizens because of their birth right.
The conservatives have already proven this for their prospects and they don't want anyone else leveraging the hard earned constitutional battles. They are just salty they lost. What were they saying to everyone else when Bush was in full swing, "Life is not fair". Now at your own phase: Something like, "suck it up", "Don't be a pu$$y", "stop bitching, biatch".
Obama won and now you live your next four to eight years complaining.
Barack Obama was NOT born in another country. He was born in Hawaii which is part of the United States.
some of us are still letting others re-frame a debate by denying facts because of dissenting opinion.
Yes I know Obama was born in Hawaii. I was making a point that his dad was born in another country and mother was an american that would probably make him a duel citizen.
1st - Being born to a father w/dual citizenship (British & Kenyan) does not negate the American citizenship of the mother.
2nd - For arugument's sake suppose the dual citizenship issue was valid. Dual citizenship would have expired once Barack Obama became of age (21 y/o I believe) and failed to formalize citizenship in the other country (Kenya).
I think you are right about that. If Obama ever had dual citizenship, he would have had to make a choice once he became an adult.
he planning on dueling. Is it pay-per-view? (Just funnin')
My brother was born in Italy in 1946. My mother was not yet a citizen but my dad was a soldier and american. My brother had duel citizenship but dad made sure he became an american. There were never questions that he was american first even our mom considered him american first.
You know this will never end because Thomas is Black and those racists will say that Thomas is in the bag for Obama. No win win for anyone. Oh but PRESIDENT OBAMA.
He was born to a British father and me, an African-American. When I applied for his first passport, I also registered his birth as an American Citizen Born Abroad and the State Dept issued him a birth certificate from the Counsulate. If he has a passport, he is a citizen-- same for Barack Obama. Clarence Thomas needs to sit his as down and take the handkerchief off his head.
In Italy prior to 1948 if an Italian woman married a foreigner, her offspring had the citizenship of the foreign father only. If the child remained in Italy, he would have been required to choose at age 18 whether he wanted to be Italian or American but he would not have been allowed to have dual citizenship. Your brother was never Italian. He was always American only.
As someone who possesses the denigrated pussy, and has been called a bitch for telling the truth, and who has an ex-husband born in the Canal Zone who joked about being an American who would not grow up to be President, I want to refer to the Constitution without being called a wingnut or being thought a wingnut.
Both McCain and Obama were from different branches of a highly-organized family with wealthy relatives, many of them attorneys, who made their money from the military-industrial complex. To me, this says loud and clear that both parties were restricting the American people's choice of candidates. The Libertarians refused to respond to my e-mail requesting info on Barr's antecedents.
McCain was born in Panama. Obama refuses to supply the First Amendment press and people with a certified copy of his birth certificate.This looks like an attempt to set a legal precedent. We don't want wingnut status, we just want Full Disclosure, not a Richard Nixon-style stonewall and disinformation campaign. And if it takes going to the Supreme Court to get it, no problem.
The SCOTUS says it's bullshit. Now poof and be gone. We don't smoke that wingnut crack in these parts.
Is the Hillary Clinton Mike Huckabee quickie!
I haven't eaten yet.
Now that would put Biden in the White House and Congress would need to select another Vice President. Let's see, someone like Nancy Pelosi. :)
YEEEECCCCCCCHHHH!
To know the answer you would have to look at the intricacies of the electoral college (if the hypothetical occurred before the president is elected---legally Obama is not elected as of yet). In theory, the electors can do whatever they want though they might face legal action in their home states if they violated the state's rules on electors.
Once Obama is sworn elected by the electoral college (December 15th this year), if the mythical ruling came down then Biden would become the president.
Frankly, if the Supreme Court were to disqualify Obama, there would be fire and blood in the streets.
Are they trying to start a civil war?
Cuz people are a bit testy right now, and feel they have spoken.
Go visit a gun forum, shouldn't be too hard to find posts about secession.
The current administration wipes their ass with the constitution, suspends habeas corpus, will force you into 'free speech zones' or arrest you for wearing a tshirt in opposition to their policies, create economic meltdown to take your money and give it to the wealthy...but by God if you Obamanation lawn-jockey voting liberals take away their bump-fire capable weaponry, they're going to threaten to kill you, and claim its a constituitional right.
The only ones qualified to be president are native americans.
There.
I said it.
The United States of America does not exist. It was an illegal rebellion against the Crown.
I think the Native Americans would argue with that notion.
I thought that a child born to a woman with American citizenship was also counted as an American citizen, no matter if the child was not born on American soil. And Hawaii counts as American soil.
Hey, maybe children born to American mothers on American airplanes in flight over the US aren't American citizens, either. The mother certainly wasn't on American soil when the child was born.
I hope they have fun with this lawsuit and it costs them a fortune, though the scenarios you imagine give me the willies.
As pointed out by CatsAreFlyfishing: President Obama was born in the U.S. (yes, Hawai'i is our 50th state).
But and a big IF he were born outside of the US - he's still a citizen:
"Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth."
http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html
Apparently, the law you've quoted is the current status. But in 1961, one of the parents had to have lived in the US for five years -- starting at the age of 14 (arbitrary or what?). Obama's mom didn't quite make the cut.
why this is even being debated, he was born in hawaii so this aspect is moot.
The wingers are convinced that he wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. His parents, apparently realizing that in 47 years he would be running for president, faked the Hawaiian birth certificate -- as well as two separate newspaper announcements of the birth, published within days of the event.
how did his mother get baby boy Obama (born in Kenya) through customs when she flew back to Hawaii? Why can't the right-wingers produce a Form I-94 for the baby? Why weren't they able to get the I-94 from McCain's State Department? Maybe because such a form doesn't exist because Obama was born in Hawaii?
refers to the number of years that a natural born citizen must live in the United States before becoming President. It has nothing to do with the parents. Read the Constitution.
You're correct in that a NBC must have lived in the US for at least 14 years to become president.
There is, however, a separate rule that is not part of the Constitution, but rather is part of the Citizenship rules - or at least *was* a part of the Citizenship rules at the time Obama was born. According to that rule, if a child was born in a foreign country, in order for him to be a citizen, at least one parent had to be a US Citizen, and had to have lived in the US for at least 5 years after they reached the age of 14. Because Obama's mother was, I believe, 18 when he was born, she would not have qualified under that law because she had only lived in the US for 4 years after turning 14 instead of the requisite 5 years.
It's confusing because of the two different uses of 14 years, but one refers to how long someone has to have lived in the US for 14 years in order to be eligible to become a president, and the other says that a parent has to have lived in the US for at least 5 years after they turn 14 (meaning that if they'd lived their whole life in the US they'd have to be at least 19 for a child born overseas to automatically be granted citizenship.
.....Because Obama's mother was, I believe, 18 when he was born, she would not have qualified under that law because she had only lived in the US for 4 years after turning 14 instead of the requisite 5 years......
This would depend on the type of foreign Visa his mother held. A student visa, for example, does not negate US residency.
Obama's mother was an American citizen but if Obama was born outside of the USA, in order for his mother to automatically pass citizenship to him, she would have been required to have resided continuously in the USA for five years beginning at age 14. This means if Obama was born outside of the USA, he would have become a naturalized US citizen at age 18.
the "or" in the constitution must be examined. That "or" allows whatever 'naturalized' means to apply to Presidential eligibility.
Fight the repubs.
Stand up for Obama.
Jesus, this is America.
Dems are all good. Repubs are all bad.
Repeat.
It's all a little magic. To distract people from the fact that in the next four years we'll probably be mostly all standing in soup lines remembering how we used to have the internet.
This ginned-up "controversy" is of even lesser caliber than the Whitewater issue that dogged Hillary Clinton during the Nineties. Unfortunatley the media is owned by corporate interests dedicated to maintaining Republican political environment, so they will continue to promote this issue out of all proportion to its actual relevance or reality.
The media will run with it until "President Obama was never really a legitimate president" enters the American psyche of pseudo-facts along with "Gore says he invented the Internet" and "Hillary murdered Vince Foster." This is, after all, what propaganda is for, and propaganda is the product that the corporate media is paid to produce.
Very soon some hapless woman somewhere will be persuaded by money or delusion to claim some kind of sexual peccadillo with President-Elect Obama, and that will be used to defame him for the rest of his first term. Talking heads such as Newt Gingrich and Dick Morris will accept money to pontificate on the way in which moral failings speak to the President-Elect's character. The program hosts to whom Gingrich and Morris speak will not mention the nearly-lethal levels of hypocrisy radiating from these comments (particularly Bill O'Reilly, who is himself a radioactive heavy metal of moral hypocrisy.)
At the end of eight years, President Obama will have restored the economy to its feet and our national standing to something less than the sack-cloth-and-ashes shame in which the Bush Administration leaves us. And Obama's thanks will be to be hounded out of office by the propagandists screaming that he's not REALLY an American, and it was horrible what he did to that poor deluded woman...
the people behind that scam are going broke and quickly.
If they are going broke it couldn't happen to a better group of scum.
right about that. Let's hope that they keep spending all their money.
With the wackos at Faux News, the "controversy" is a serious issue. But then, some of them don't know the difference between an ethnic food and a cleansing tool.
For the MSM, the "controversy" is a marketing tool, simply being used to draw viewers. I put it on the same level as Nancy Grace's perpetual "Where's Caylee" baloney. No offense intended to the poor girl or her family - NG is just polluting the airwaves {so to speak} with her nightly BS.
Joe Biden won the race for VP. He'd choose Hillary Clinton as new veep, and the wing nuts would shit bricks, causing Rush's roids to flare up.
Disturbing visuals there!
That's gotta be a BIG roid
yeah, no kidding.
Now that is too funny.
Because there are no other pressing matters in our country than whether or not a person born to an American mother in American soil is or isn't an American citizen.
Here is a tidbit: even if your parents are foreign nationals, if you are born on American soil you are eligible for American citizenship.
Funny how the wingnuts can only come up with ancillary non-issues to the main reality we have at hand, in order to deflect from the clusterfuck they were integral part in creating.
That is true and that is one of the main issues with illegal immigrants. What to do with their children if they get deported because their children are legal citizens of the United States.
Well, if we want to get super-hyper literal about stuff, the actual clause in the Constitution says: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
Note that first sentence - "No Person except .... at the time of the Adoption of this Consitution, shall be eligible..."
Does that mean that every President born after the adoption of the Constitution was actually ineligible to be President? They sure weren't citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution!
Sure, that's a pretty tortured reading of the clause, but its no more tortured than the reading those who think Obama is ineligible for the Presidency are using, eh?
Actually, this means that only natural born citizens can become president after the adoption of the Constitution. It's complicated because of the Articles of Confederation which very loosely held this nation together.
The wingers and concern trolls ask "Where is the long form birth certificate" because, apparently, the Hawaii state-issued certificate isn't enough for them (even though it clearly states on the certificate that it's valid for all legal purposes and even though Obama got a passport based on that certificate."
The "long form" is something issued by the hospital and has no real legal standing at all. I happened to have one because my parents had hung on to it (many may have lost theirs) but still had to request a document from the State of Ohio in order to get a passport. It looks very much like the Hawaiian certificate of live birth that was issued for Barack Obama II.
There is no long form.
aspects of the Electoral College is that we voted not for obama/biden but for **electors for** obama/biden. thus if obama is not eligible, the electors (democratic loyalists) can elect whomever they want. presumably it would be biden + new VP.
Eliot Spitzer wrote his first post for Slate. Perhaps it's part of his Jan. 20th campaign strategy.
Who believes in this birth certificate nonsense. You have to see this to believe it...
Of course because Clarence Thomas has already spoken publicly about the issue, he will take the appropriate route and recuse himself, right?
*crickets*
Yeah, I thought so, the arrogant prick. Thomas and Scalia are the most "activist" judges on the court (but Alito is going to try to make his move too.)
I guess we'll really see the mettle of Roberts and Alito in this decision. If they even vote to hear this shit, we know they are hopelessly devoid of dedication to the constitution.
Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday?
The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.
Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are “citizens of the United States at birth:”
* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person’s status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.
Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.
And here is the provision on Hawaii:
§ 1405. Persons born in Hawaii
A person born in Hawaii on or after August 12, 1898, and before April 30, 1900, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900. A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth. A person who was a citizen of the Republic of Hawaii on August 12, 1898, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900.
That’s it. Nothing about the age of the mother, or 5 years, or any other bullshit that those idiots who haven’t bothered to read the constitution keep throwing out there.
by Jody at TheFieldNegro in comments.
I think if it was ruled that Barack Obama couldn't run for president due to his birth certificate, it would automatically be passed to Joe Biden and he would most likely make Hillary Clinton his Vice-President. John McCain wouldn't even be in the equation.
Shuffle them like cards with death certificates?
Shuffle them like cards with death certificates?
Oopsie.
Alan Keyes is also one of the right wing nuts filing lawsuits (in California) protesting Obama's win, based on Keyes' claim Obama isn't a natural born citizen. Keyes is a world class nut if there ever was one. However, sounds like Keyes plans on causing trouble with Obama because I read that for every single order or proclamation or legislation that Obama signs, Keyes plans on filing a lawsuit against it.....claiming that because Obama is not qualified to be President, anything he signs is not valid.
As I said, Keyes is a world class nutjob.
I also have another theory concerning the wingnuts' claim that Obama could just end the speculation by producing a long form of his birth certificate. If such a thing exists, I believe Obama is not producing it just so these wingnuts spend and waste their money on frivolous lawsuits!
...we oughtta waste even more time looking at Trig Palin's birth certificate and stuff...
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_dai...
Andrew Sullivan is starting to think so.
If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
it's Dubya. He was never legitimately elected. ALL of his policies, rules, executive orders, etc should be declared null and void. And all his embedded minions should be hunted down and fired.
The way that I understand it, on November 4th we elected a slate of electors to the electoral college. Legally, these electors are free to vote for whoever they want. This has happened in a previous election, where one Bush elector voted for either Kerry or Gore. I can't remember which election. Barack Obama has not been elected yet. Thus, if he were to be disqualified, the electors wouldn't be because they're not legally bound to vote for him. Thus, you would have 365 "Democratic" electors and 173 "Republican" electors.
The Democrats could push their candidate of choice and have the electoral college elect that person. If the electoral college was not able to elect a president, the election of the president would be thrown into the Congress, for them to choose the next president when they convene in January. Normally, this would be a major setback for a new president coming in to set his administration that late. Under current conditions, it would be catastrophic.
Good point.
Something else to remember: the Democratic and Republican parties are not government organizations. They are governed by their own rules. They are no more an official part of our government than is the Green Party or the Libertarian Party. AND, the American people votes for a person, not a Party. Just because the president elect comes from the Democratic Party, does not give the Democratic party any official right to select a replacement president in such a case that the "President Elect" is disqualified.
Though Thomas and Scalia have proven themselves to be publicly political, I really doubt the other seven have any desire to re-visit the unmitigated disaster of 2000 when five of them disenfranchised Florida voters.
I was told then that a moron from Crawfish, TX, won and to get over it.
Now it's my turn, the highly qualified junior US Senator from Illinois won - it's time for mentally unstable right wingers to get over it.
Was born in Panama to American parents.
The Panama Canal Zone was never a Territory or Possession of the United States. Just like Git-Mo it was leased forever from Panama and Panama was paid RENT Annually. Carter canciled that Lease and the Canal Zone was returned to Panama.
Note: The Panama Canal Zone has never been listed as a Territory or Possession of the United States.
"Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407)."
McCain was Born in a hospital in the Canal Zone?
The only hospital in the Canal Zone, Coco Solo Hospital, was not built until 1942 when McCain was 6 years old.
Legally, McCain and Obama's Constitutional claim of eligibility would be the same, parental citizenship, IF Obama was born in Kenya to an American Mother.
The 14th Amendment "Natural Born" is still in question.
Birth of a child in a foreign country makes him a citizen of that country at Birth and to gain his U.S. citizenship would be by Statute, a "Naturalized Citizen", not by birth. Military bases in foreign countries are not owned Possessions or Territories of the United States.
One Could Argue that NEITHER McCain nor Obama are Constitutionally qualified to become President.
Title 8 of the U.S. Code is a Statute or Law.
Anyone gaining Citizenship by "Statute" is a Naturalized Citizen.
.....Birth of a child in a foreign country makes him a citizen of that country at Birth......
This would only be correct if the country in question recognizes citizenship by birth on the soil. Most countries do NOT recognize citizenship by birth on the soil but do recognize citizenship by blood, meaning one or both parents are citizens of that country.
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