Missiles Ahoy! The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!
By John Amato Friday Sep 18, 2009 11:00amThe White House has dumped Bush's Incredible Missile program to save the world.
President Obama announced on Thursday that he would scrap former President George W. Bush’s planned missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic and instead deploy a reconfigured system aimed more at intercepting short- and medium-range Iranian missiles.
Mr. Obama decided not to deploy a sophisticated radar system in the Czech Republic or 10 ground-based interceptors in Poland, as Mr. Bush had planned. Instead, the new system his administration is developing would deploy smaller SM-3 missiles, at first aboard ships and later on land somewhere in Europe, possibly even in Poland or the Czech Republic.
“President Bush was right that Iran’s ballistic missile program poses a significant threat,” Mr. Obama told reporters at the White House. But he said new assessments of the nature of the Iranian threat required a different system that would use existing technology and different locations. “This new approach will provide capabilities sooner, build on proven systems and offer greater defenses against the threat of missile attack than the 2007 European missile defense program.”The decision amounts to one of the biggest national security reversals by the new administration, one that has caused consternation in Poland and the Czech Republic and pleased at least some officials in Russia, which had adamantly objected to the Bush plan. But Obama administration officials stressed that they are not abandoning missile defense, only redesigning it to meet the more immediate Iranian threat.
I would imagine the White House has negotiated with the Russians for something in return, but the Neocons will scream bloody murder. And as you would expect, the right-wingers are in freakout mode. As far as they're concerned, it's still toe-to-toe nookyular combat with the Rooskies.
Funny thing: When it comes to things like saving the ecnoomy and creating decent health care, we hear about the cost of this and the cost of that, ad nauseam. So why aren't the teabaggers and Republicans up in arms over all this government spending on missiles and whatnot?
Obama seems to be doing it smarter and cheaper. Maybe we should have a pay-go approach to bombs and guns. Maybe the CBO should be seen in prime time giving America estimates on how much we're spending on missile defense, don't you think?
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I'm not exactly leaping for joy. Scrapping the Bush plan, which didn't work and was designed to shoot down missiles that Iran doesn't even have, is a good step forward. Even most of the people in the Pentagon were against that plan. But don't overlook the fact that he is still going ahead with a different missile defense program. The whole idea that we need to protect Europe from Iranian missiles is just insane anyway. Iran has never threatened Europe and except for defending themselves against iraq the've never launched or even threatened to launch missiles against anyone. Now if Iran was trying to develop a missile defense system for the mid-east to shoot down incoming US cruise missiles that would make sense.
This was never about Iran. It was always about Russia.
I'm not wholly unsuspicious of Russian aims to expand back out to most of their Soviet era borders (which weren't as expansive as their Tsarist borders), but the Bushco plan was an unjustifiable threat to peace in Europe. It's time to lift the trade restrictions with Russia that have been in place for decades now, too.
in their backyard is bad, only the USA can do that. After all we're the chosen ones by the almighty!
They should have influence in their neighborhood.
I'm talking about expanding their borders back out to include the Trans-Caucasian and Baltic republics, as well as Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova. Maybe the Central Asian republics, too. There's a pattern of Russian expansion that's been ongoing since the mid-16th century.
... it is just the USA has no ground, moral or otherwise, whatsoever to berate Russia.
Don't egg them on, either.
But notice that Europe isn't making any noise about breaking up NATO, either. There's a good reason that the former Soviet satellite states of central and eastern Europe joined NATO rather promptly after shaking off Soviet hegemony.
At least they haven't gone around squashing them like the USA has done whenever one of our banana republics politely asked us to bugger off.
For what it is worth, there are plenty of liberal political parties in Western Europe that has "leaving NATO ASAP" as part of their political platform.
The Russians are no saints, and most of the former Eastern Europe has a big deal of animosity for the decades of literal invasion/abuse that ensued after WWII. However, let's not kid ourselves, most of the Eastern countries were as interested in sucking off the perennial Western European tit as they were in sticking it to the Russians.
While there isn't a great deal of direct evidence that Iran is currently working on nuclear weapons the fact that they are working on delivery systems is pretty strong circumstantial evidence. Make no mistake. These type of missiles are insufficiently accurate and so extraordinarily costly that they are utterly useless as a military weapon unless they have some sort of WMD as a warhead. It could be chemical,biological or nuclear but without one of these the missiles in question are largely useless. They just don't have the payload to be worth the candle otherwise.
That was my first thought when I saw the story this morning too.
... so they went back to the old an tried "red scare" meme.
Although I don't understand how it is supposed to work, the Ruskies ain't commies no more... however the Chinese are, but somehow they are one of our biggest trading partners... and actually, we do tons of trading with the Ruskies too.
It is so hard to keep track of all this... like how Osama was "good" before he became "bad" and now he is "forgotten. "
BS. Everybody except the government was pretty much expecting it and most were looking forward to it.
There are two weird things about this whole thing: first, the willingness of Czech politicians, especially the right (ODS and President Klaus, that asshole), to kiss Republican ass. I guess for most of them, it doesn't matter whether the ass is Soviet or American - as long as it has power, they'll kiss it.
Second weird thing: although the installation was opposed by most Czechs from day one, the opposition (not necessarily represented by any political party) was almost universally derided by those in power and ignored by the media. Even that icon of democracy and fight for freedom and human rights Václav Havel called those opposed to the missile shield "miefig", i.e. "foul smelling". Sound familiar?
And as for the media blackout, Daily Telegraph - of all outlets - was the only one who actually talked to the people. The rest of MSM just accepted the official government story, hence bullshit about "consternation".
The Republicans (and the AP!) are trying to spin this as some big 'betrayal' of Europe. As if the Czechs and Poles were all angry about this. As if they'd begged the USA for this missile shield rather than have it pushed on them by Bush.
The majority of Poles and Czechs are against it. The majority of Europeans in general are against it.
(The 'evidence' for this provided by the AP? A headline in the Polish tabloid Fakt)
This sudden and entirely fake concern for European opinions on the part of Republicans is ridiculous. The fact that they can get away with spinning this bullshit just proves how ignorant their 'base' is about the rest of the world.
Sneaky Russians! Waited til' Patrick Swayze wasn't around to organize us ....!!
lol
Wolveriiiiiiines!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_I4WgBfETc
The President is correct in this decision. Europe is none of our business. If Europeans want missile defense, they can deploy it themselves.
he isn't exactly acting as if Europe is none of our business. He is still deploying a missile defense shield to defend Europe against Iranian missiles. The difference is unlike Bush, who was creating a system to defend against mythical long range missiles that Iran may one day build, Obama is deploying a missile shield designed to destroy the kind of short range missiles that Iran actually has. Its why virtually everyone in the pentagon was actually in favor of this.
As I said above, the idea that Europe needs to be defended against Iranian missiles is just insane. Iran has never threatened Europe and if they even indicated they would do so we (probably with Israel) would wipe them off the map.
I say Obama hasnt done anything "cheaper." (although I do think he's got at least 30 I.Q. points on the Chimpster)
Obama gave blessing to this years "Pentagon appropriations" of (four hundred and ninety something) billion...
which is pretty close to the same pentagon budget under Bush...
(nothing has changed)
and this is one teabagger who is upset about it...
as soon as we see some accounting that shows that the money (that was saved) ...was used to buy some school books instead...is when we can say Obama did it cheaper.
(dont kid yourself Amato) ...everyone knows that the pentagon is not going to "give back the money they saved...(of course not) ...they will spend it on someting else, thats all.
If Obama really wanted to save money he would look into all the money that disappeared in Iraq (into the military contractor black hole) when Chimpy was president! (like he promised!) ...meanwhile he has shifted soldiers from Iraq in to Afghanistan, and replaced them with even more military contractors! ...the wars continue...
BO's IQ may be above Bush's, but still barely emerges above double digits.
http://www.chacha.com/question/what-is-barack-obama's-iq%3F
... if it is Obama you are referring to, then it is clearly that counting is not your thing. And that inability to cross the double digit chasm is due to your own personal intellectual shortcomings than Mr. Obama's lack of intelligence.
I have my disagreements with Obama and some of his policies. One thing he is not is dumb... all the contrary. For anyone to claim that Bush and Obama are relatively equivalent from an intellectual standpoint is kind of ridiculous.
The "missle shield" was just a chance for BushCo to look tough with Russia and funnel some more taxpayer cash to military contractors.
I have never seen a reliable report that any of the missle systems actually work at anything but wasting money. All the tests were against slow moving targets that had homing beacons transmitting their exact location. Moreover, the systems is phenomenally expensive and does not account for MIRVs, which the Russians have in large quantity.
Besides Russia would be disinclined to drop nuclear bombs on their neighbors as the nuclear fallout will only drift back into their own country on the winds.
The Iranians, on the other hand, have much cruder missle technology. I only hope these ship based systems are more effective than the land based versions.
If you read books by Michio Kaku or Joe Cirincione you will see that the Pentagon has a very sophisticated strategy of escalated threat. The idea is that we can go to different levels of threatening first limited "surgical" nuclear strikes all the way up to full fledged global thermonuclear war and at each level of brinksmanship be confident that we have the dominant power. That is really what missile defense is all about. The idea that you can shoot down one or two rogue missiles launched by a third rate power like Iran was never the goal. The goal is that in a full fledged nuclear war we can shoot down enough missiles (after first disabling most of the with a first strike) as to make nuclear war "winnable". So this isn't just about "looking tough" (although that is also a part of it) its about a sophisticate strategy for US hegemony. Oh yes, and also a way to funnel billions to the military industrial complex.
I think I prefer Chips Ahoy
But just barely.
how did the airwaves become a sea of unintelligible garble?
Yes, the Iranians are coming! Their next attack on Europe could be launched any minute!
I know they've been biding their time since their last attempt, but let's face it, in geological terms 480 BC is only five minutes ago...
The Russians knew better than to believe Bush when he claimed the purpose of putting a missile "shield" in their backyard was "no threat against them." There were plenty of closer/better places to put such a system.
The reason Bush wanted a missile system so close to Russia was to discourage Russia from aiding their ally Iran if Bush declared war on them (Iran).
But I think you can look at the fact that Russia was, from time to time, shutting off the natural gas pipelines to Europe, too.
And, I'm tellin' ya, that war with Georgia was probably just a sign of things to come. That wasn't about ethnic cleansing, it was about controlling the Trans-Caspian pipeline, which would bypass Russia in order to move natural gas to the rest of Europe.
... however, there was also the matter that Georgia wasn't paying their gas bills.
The rebirth of Russian nationalism and the need for the Russians for a credible enemy was being fed by the previous administrations foolish policy with regard to the proposed missile systems. I can't help thinking that factions in both the US and Russia were looking to rekindle a cold war. The good old M/I complex at work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7L7WLFBYR4
and he is an idiot for doing so.
Let him go back to Martha's vineyard and play golf.
So why aren't the teabaggers and Republicans up in arms over all this government spending on missiles and whatnot?
I believe Republican philosophy says that the costs of taking actions that result in the murdering of citizens of other nations is always money well spent.
EGERMENCY, EGERMANCY, everyone to get from street!
Muriel? Muriel!
When Sarah Palin spouted her crap about seeing Russia from her house and Tina Fey mocked her with the "shoo!" skit, I was reminded of this film, one of the best anti-war comedy films ever made. The hysteria of the 1960's is one of the neo-con's favorite tools to scare the crap out of everybody.
Every one should see "The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming" at least once to learn what bullshit this hysteria was, then and now.
and it was produced and directed by my fellow canuck Norman Jewison.
Thanks for the clip! I really enjoyed that.
:)
In the Eastern Mediterranean, off the coast of a certain client/colony/overlord.
...but this should fix it.
Wait a minute -- I must be missing something here. Why are the right-wingers so afraid of Russia all of a sudden? When did we decide to declare another Cold War? I had the impression that our relations with Russia were at least somewhat cordial now, what with Bush meeting Putin and getting a "sense of his soul" (not that I see any particular reason to have faith in Bush's judgment, mind you). For that matter, haven't neoconservatives often claimed that the United States won World War III (by which they mean the Cold War) because of Ronald Reagan?
I'm being a little facetious, of course -- I've been saying for over a decade now that the Russian Bear isn't dead, merely hibernating. In my opinion, the Cold War never completely ended -- we've simply been in a state of cease-fire for the past eighteen years. I've never really trusted Putin, who's always struck me as disturbingly heavy-handed -- so I see no particular reason to think differently of the man who's more or less acknowledged as his protege. Putin has made it clear on several occasions in the past that Russia is not really our friend and that they're still a force to be reckoned with. I'm merely trying to point out that the sudden right-wing freakout over Obama's decision to restructure the missile shield program represents a considerable departure from their previous state of comparative complacency -- and the fact that it's taken place so abruptly makes it doubly suspect, stemming more from the desire to find any possible excuse for attacking Obama than from genuine concerns over American and/or European safety.
The cold war was about as real as the global war on terror. I'm not saying the Russians were nice guys. They were vicious tyrants toward the eastern bloc. But they never had any real illusions about creating some massive Soviet world wide empire. They were quite justly paranoid about the west launching another attack to destroy Russia and they created the Eastern bloc as a buffer against a western invasion.
Why not, we had done it twice already. Once right after the founding of Soviet Russia and of course Hitler's invasion. The Russians lost more people than any other nation in the second world war and had apx. half of their country occupied. The Germans were brutal toward them. After the second world war we could have easily had peace, especially after Stalin died but more or less the same powers that are fomenting a war against Islamofacism now branded anyone a commie who wanted to negotiate with rather than anhilate them.
As for present day Putin is certainly a MoFo and with global warming Russia will probably be better off than it ever has been as a world power. But I doubt very much that THEY would launch a new cold war. They already bankrupted themselves once trying to keep up with us and unilaterally gave up even though president Raygun was calling them the evil empire. They would rather we keep bankrupting ourselves and then they along with the Chinese can dominate the world, assuming we don't blow it up.
Mike, in the wake of the Revolution, the Red Army invaded Ukraine and Poland, and they weren't prodded into doing so. They were trying to rebuild the old Tsarist empire.
What do you think the Soviet war with Finland and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact were about? Why do you think they backed the coup against Beneš, a socialist, in Czechoslovakia in 1948? The Greek Civil War?
The Soviet Union gave financial backing to Communist parties all over the world, and armed quite a few insurrectionists, too. In return they expected total loyalty to the Kremlin. They got mighty pissed when Tito and Mao- both of whom they'd backed- decided that they'd govern their nations autonomously.
And then there were the purges of the Comintern in the 1930's, when Stalin executed hundreds of Communists, both Soviet and foreign members who didn't show perfect loyalty to Moscow.
Don't take this as a defense of 20th century US foreign relations. I'm just saying that the Soviets were just as rotten as us.
I never meant to imply that the Soviets were good guys. I just think that the idea that the Cold War was about us stopping the Soviets from global domination was a lie. Yes, they did all those bad things but it wasn't about global domination it was about them securing themselves against a perceived threat that the west (especially the US and UK) wanted to do to them what the Germans almost managed to do. But i would agree that the Soviets were just as rotten as us. If they had achieved the A bomb before we did or if the Germans had been smart enough to leave the peace pact in place with them and attack the rest of the world I hate to think what the world would look like. I think the cold war was really more about both sides getting their populations afraid of "the other" so as not to question their respective ruling elites.
But going forward, while I agree Putin is a dangerous tyrant, I'm a lot more worried about what would happen under a president Palin or Santorum.
...and for the most part, I agree with it. The one point on which you and I differ is your apparent assumption that the Soviet Union would never have considered launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the United States. The Soviets probably recognized that whatever aspirations some people might have had for a worldwide communist empire were very unrealistic. However, with all due respect, I don't think you can necessarily take that to mean that there was never any actual possibility of a Soviet first strike -- in a similar vein, I don't think that the United States ever completely ruled out the option of launching a pre-emptive strike either (no matter what most Americans might have wanted to believe).
In any case, as I mentioned previously, the primary intention of my earlier post was to illustrate the conveniently disingenuous nature of the right-wing response to Obama's decision. If the right-wing is truly as concerned as they purport to be about protecting Europe and America from Russia, why haven't they been more consistent about voicing this over the last few years? The fact that they're all of a sudden choosing to make this an issue suggests that their concern is for the most part a pretense and little more than an affectation which they're conveniently using as one more excuse for attacking Obama.
For the record, I notice that you decided not to bring up the fact that another Western nation -- the French Empire under Napoleon -- likewise tried to invade Russia but were largely defeated by the infamous Russian winter. Granted, this was more than a century before the formation of the Soviet Union -- but you can't convince me that it wasn't part of the Soviet consciousness, especially since it also came at a high price in terms of Russian lives.
"The one point on which you and I differ is your apparent assumption that the Soviet Union would never have considered launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the United States"
I only think that because I think the US always has an overwhelming superiority in nuclear weapons, despite the propaganda. As I said in one of my posts above I hate to think what the world would look like if the Soviets had developed the bomb before we did. Stalin was as bad as Hitler as far as I'm concerned.
"For the record, I notice that you decided not to bring up the fact that another Western nation -- the French Empire under Napoleon -- likewise tried to invade Russia but were largely defeated by the infamous Russian winter."
That's an excellent point. It really goes to support what I was trying to say. Americans are so paranoid sometime yet we have no conception of the much more justifiable paranoia that many Russians have. Especially because I think Russians (and most non US citizens) have a much better sense of history as going back centuries not just a few years.
I don't think the Russian winter had as much to do with either the German or French defeats as did the incredibly long supply lines and the Russian tendency to cede territory rather than engage in battle- thus stretching those supply lines.
During the Great Northern War, Charles XII of Sweden invaded from northwest to southeast, but could never turn the Russian flank. When Peter the Great routed the Swedes at Poltava, Charles was forced to flee south to the Ottomans. This was in the middle of the Russian summer (July 8th by the new calendar).
Shorter form: Withdraw and make the enemy commit more and more of his troops to guarding the line of supply. Attack his main force when it is sufficiently small, then mop up, in order, the small forces guarding the line of supply.
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