Utopia, Unraveled
In a Time Magazine special earlier this year, Reihan Salam rubbed his hands together excitedly and wrote this giddy little prediction:
Faced with the burden of financing the decades-long retirement of aging boomers, many of the young embrace a new underground economy, a largely untaxed archipelago of communes, co-ops, and kibbutzim that passively resist the power of the granny state while building their own little utopias.
Rural Tennessee -- at least this particular area of rural Tennessee -- looks a lot like Reihan's vision. Welcome to Gene Cranick's world, where taxes are anathema and for some communities, the opt-in model for public services leaves lives covered in ashes and whispers of the consequences of pure, unadulterated libertarian utopia. I agree with digby on this one -- it's not Randian or utopian or much of anything beyond just plain mean.
Glenn Beck thinks an opt-in fire department is just a terrific idea:
If you don't pay your $75 then that hurts the fire department. They can't use those resources and you would be sponging off your neighbor's $75 if they put out your neighbor's house and you didn't pay for it.
Gene Cranick, the homeowner, has a pretty practical response:
Why should I want to put up a business or build a new home around when they're not going to do you -- treat you right. And another thing is...part of my tax dollars comes back to this town, I think, for fire trucks...
See? That's the real problem here. This guy paid taxes and his tax dollars bought those pretty fire trucks, paid for fire hydrants and the water, but a failure to pay the $75 pay-to-spray fee cost him his house. Not just his house, but it also did damage to his neighbor's house and it killed his pets --- three dogs and a cat.
Perhaps we have some kind of weird generational disconnect here. I keep hearing this argument over and over with regard to health care reform, too, particularly the mandate. Unsurprisingly, I tend to hear it from younger people who think they shouldn't have to be a part of the bigger picture. It's the same argument that John Kyl used when he complained during the markup sessions that he shouldn't have to pay for maternity care since he would never be pregnant.
Utopia isn't served up one individual at a time. Everyone can create their own vision about their own utopia, but to do so while ignoring the larger reality that we actually DO live in a world with neighbors and people and random tragedies and disasters is nothing but self-centered egotistical thinking. It may work as an economic theory, but it doesn't transcend into the moral and ethical arenas at all. Forcing public servants to stand and watch a man's home burn down is immoral. They let his pets die. Didn't lift a finger to save them. It's cruel. It's evil. It's right-wing memes in living color, writ large.
If you've ever subscribed to AAA roadside service and accidentally forgotten to pay renewal fees, they don't leave you on the side of the road, stranded. If you call and your membership is expired, you have the opportunity to pay the back fees on the spot. When you do, they send the tow truck out to help. At the very least, they could have put the damn fire out first and handed Mr. Crannick a bill right then.
Or, they could do what responsible societies do. They accept that community is something larger than the individual, that all communities need to agree to pay to protect themselves with a police and fire department that doesn't discriminate on the basis of those who opt-in and those who do not. They accept that there will be some in the community who are unable to take care of themselves and should therefore have a safety net -- a net that only government can provide. They accept that basic services are part of a successful, thriving community, and everyone should be protected by them. Water. Electricity. Police. Fire. Health. Caring for the poor.
Fast-forward back to the town hall nightmares of 2009. Remember the one with Tom Coburn, a doctor? The one where he suggested to the lady who was losing all she had because of her husband's illness that she rely on her neighbors? Again we see through the nonsensical ideas of the right. What neighbors? Would those be the neighbors who stood there and watched a guy's house burn down while the fire department, with trucks on the scene, did nothing? We should trust those neighbors because why?
Utopias are perfection. Humans are imperfect creatures. The best we can do is understand that, and collectively protect ourselves as a community. United. Tomorrow morning I want to look in the mirror just like I did today and know that I have done as much as I can do as an individual and as a citizen to make this place I live in better not only for me, but for someone else. If my neighbor's home doesn't burn down, mine won't either.
I'm willing to pay a tax for that. How about you?
A fucking disgrace. I saw that on The countdown. Even a neighbour wanted to pay to put down the fire. It made me think about gangs of new york where the fire departpment got in a fight who to get the fire down and shit (loot)
Fuck, it's Bizaro world!
This is BS!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
This state is f'd up. They are so damn preoccupied in this little rural town I live in to keep the liquor store from openning up where the business would help the community. The man that wants to open the liquor store had to have petitions signed and he was able to get it on the ballot. Now you got the churchs in the area trying to defeat it. Now I don't drink but damn people are grown ups and they should be able to buy liquor in the store if they want it. It's been a less then 5 yrs that they finally allow to sell beer on sunday. You have to buy it after 12:00 noon. Can you believe this crap. A 21 yr old can go to war yet he can't go buy a bottle of wine in a liquor store. Good grief.
Southern Yankee
What I want to know, if someone was trapped in the building would the firefighters still not respond?
Pets died iirc.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEyvy-waDuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Uaxc4VDtA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But you're conflating two different arguments
No, I don't think fire departments should run on subscriptions. But that's not the issue here.
The issue is that the citizens of this area had decided how they wanted to handle situations like this, and the rules were clear. Cranich was letting his fellow citizens pay for the fire department, so for them to bail him out when his gamble failed would be to encourage everybody else to do likewise. He knew the rules and made a bad gamble.
I'm glad that I don't live in his part of the country, but if I did, I'd pay the damned $75.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Is this what passes for reasoned discourse here?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Did you take a vacation from your meds? I understand that you disagree with slideguy's position and comments, but is it really necessary to resort to calling names and insulting him/her? You pulled the same merda with me last night and I found it immature, insulting, and have basically surmised...you're a jerk!
I do not agree with privatizing, or even slightly somewhat privatizing ANY and ALL government services but was it really necessary to treat someone this way?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"My response to your quote about winter approaching....I hope you get frost bite in the worst possible area that turns into gangrene, thus resulting in amputation."
WTF! My quote is from "A song of ice and fire"
Are you like fucking insane?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"thus resulting in amputation."
Are you on drugs?
Storm, Earth and Fire
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Yes...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
There was a subscription fire department. Cost about the same. I didn't pay it. Found out later that the local volunteer FD was forced to do that because Boone County budget got cut. You'd think that they could raise enough taxes through the simple expedient of legalizing liquor, so that they could raise some freakin' taxes, but they didn't.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
your check was not lost in the mail. Or maybe there was a problem with the city's accounting and they let your house burn down because their computer didn't show your last payment. Or maybe you are in the hospital with a stroke. Or you lost your job and you didn't have the money.
So what really is the issue here?
That maybe we should behave as a society and not all services need to be purchased separately or voted on.
This really foreshadows privatizing some our most basic needs.
"i'm sorry dave, i can't do that"
"Everybody is dead Dave"
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W5Am-a_xWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI7trKKoDSA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKF2qd0-iQ
D00d, just d00d.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
He normally did. This time, he forgot - of course, it's the time the fire happens, because that's just how Murphy rolls.
The problem is, is that people are imperfect, but authoritarian dogma deals out the harshest punishments for anyone who makes any mistake. There is no forgiveness in libertarianism, only death.
There is absolutely NO reason they could not have taken his $75 on the spot. None. Absolutely none. Whether they took it on the spot while his house burned, or yesterday, or 3 weeks ago, or 11 months 29 days ago, he would have coverage. Let me say it again...none.
And, yes, the issue is absolutely fire departments running on subscriptions. If it wasn't, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we?
If I had been one of the firefighters, damn if I wouldn't grab a hose and do what I could to help the situation. And damn my superiors. My fellow firefighters would have to drag me from the site or tackle my ass to keep me from trying.
I have seen a house on fire. It was the one right next door to ours, not even 15 feet away. The bad part is that my Dad and I weren't home when the fire started. But my Mom was. We went to pick up a stereo that had been repaired and were returning home. On the highway as we returned home we saw the smoke from the fire. It was in the general direction of our home, but we didn't think much about it. Then as we got closer to home, it soon became apparent that the fire was pretty much on the street where we lived. Yet because of the trees and hills and the fact we couldn't see our house until we turned down our street, it was all but obvious to us that yes, it was OUR house that was on fire. And a mother and a wife was there and we had no way of knowing her fate. This was in 1979 and we couldn't just pick up our cell phone and contact her. It's bad enough when you happen to witness another house on fire. But unless your own personal house has been on fire, and a loved one is home, there is no way in hell that you know what that feeling is like.
You don't sit back and refuse both money (which was offered) and to put out the fire.
The only reason to let the house burn down is b/c they were being assholes. There's no "rules". There's no free market involved, b/c they tossed out the profit they could have made by charging him more. They'd rather lose the money.
They put out the fire in the neighbor's yard, but the neighbor's yard would have had no damage at all if THESE ASSHOLES HAD PUT OUT THE FIRE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
You don't sit back and refuse to put out a fire over $75. And if you do, you lose any semblence of 'rule-followiing' by refusing to accept the $75 or charge a higher fee for not paying the fee on time.
And if that was the issue, they should have put out the damned fire and then dealt with the money.
What the hell does the man's taxes go for in the first place? Doesn't his taxes go for police cars, fire trucks? I live in TN and in a rural area. I live pretty far out of town and I know the fire department will come but by the time they get here my place will burn down. I know because I was coming home one night and this empty house on the corner of my street had a small fire burning. It was like someone was trying to keep warm. I mean the house was extremely old and wasn't worth saving but there was a new tractor in the back of the house. Anyway I called the owners to let them no that the house was on fire and then I called the fire department. By the time they got to the house it was gone. But at least they tried to put the fire out.
Southern Yankee
.
.
.
The Corporatists... with ALOT of help from our politicians are STRIP MINING everything of value in this country...
--with all the blessings / support from the Supreme Court.
This is just a taste of what awaits us.
The Corporatists are doing to this country economically what Massey Energy (coal, inc.) is doing to Kentucky and West Virginia -- Mountain Top Removal mining, with a lot of help from politicians from both political parties.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy
I say: yeah but...
(are you willing to pay a tax) ...AND a $75 "fire extinguishing extortion fee" ?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
Well, you don't want to pay taxes at all. Why don't you fuck to an island!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
I like paying my gasoline tax... (pays for roads)
I pay all my local sales taxes and property taxes for schools police ect...
(I just got a problem with federal taxes) ...they use those for war, corporate welfare (and give a lot to to international banksters and Israel too)
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
Do you realize how much of our nation's highway system is built on federal taxes?
And even state highways and roads often apply for loans from the federal government paid for by our federal taxes.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And if it wasn't for the mingling of state and federal spending, the burden of cost on the states would rise proportionally, so we end up paying the same amount but simply paying different hands. State income taxes would rise, or in Texas case we would create a state income tax, while corporations who provide the bulk of the employment in most states, due to their size, organization and location would be beyond the reach of any state legislation.
They would end up with out any legislation, simply because they can outspend most states.
Or is that what you want, to free corporations from sensible regulations in the name of "free-markets?"
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...to free corporations from sensible regulations in the name of "free-markets?"
answer: No silly, dems and repubs have already "freed" corporations from sensible regulations...in the name of free market.
repeat: Democrats were resposible for eliminating the Glass Steagol Act....not libertarians. (Your political party is responsible )
p.s. there are no corporations left in America anyway so whats your point!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
And just how did they accomplish that, Mr. truth in lending... :P
Study the symptoms not the virus...
♥
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Glass-Steagall (The Banking Act of 1933), was legislated out of existence by the The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLB), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999.
They were Sen. Phil Gramm (R, Texas), Rep. Jim Leach (R, Iowa), and Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R, Virginia).
This was completed in 1999, when the republicans still had control of Congress, and Clinton was on his way out.
It was signed by Clinton because they had the votes to over-ride a veto.and there was probably a deal cut for some project that Clenis wanted to achieve.
But with states being the main instrument of taxation, as you proposed, what we think is bad in the form of corruption would grow exponentially worse, due to the states relatively weaker position.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Mandate that everyone pay, and those that don't pay not only don't get services but also get fined in addition. Oh, and let the Fire Department charge whatever it wants.
We could call it "The Affordable Fire Protection Act.".
Corruption favors the wealthy.
immoral. Somehow karoli's equating it with the mandate to purchase healthcare doesn't jib. For one, he goes on to be on the sode of the fellow whose tax dollars were at least partially used to purchase fire trucks, water, etc... Well, our taxes go to fund Medicare etc..and we'll stilll be forced to purchase.healthcare.
people who are uninsured and sick will not be left at the emergency room door or in the gutter, because that's not what we do. At least, not what we do right now. If we decide that we should leave sick people in the gutter, then we're truly lost as a society and should just let the Chinese take over or something.
Forty five thousand people die every year for lack of coverage. Whether they die outside of the emergency room door seems a rather trivial point. Sure, you might get treatment for a car accident at the E.R. without insurance, but it's not like you can walk into the E.R. and say "Hey, I have heart disease and high blood pressure. Can I have some very expensive medication?" It doesn't work that way.
And I'd rather have the Chinese take over than the insurance companies. China has been civilized for five thousand years. Insurance companies? Not so much.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I have a more positive image of China than I do America, often times.
far left loon >.<
preventive and ongoing health services. So they don't go to the doctor and then they die because the underlying problem wasn't treated. OR they couldn't get health insurance because they had a pre-existing condition. Or they could but couldn't afford it. And lots of that is now and in the future going to be a dead issue. But because we cannot FORCE them to pay for it, even with subsidized premiums, some will opt out. And we will still pay rather than leave them gasping at the door of the ER.
(I can't believe he didn't save his doggies and kitties)
seems like he had plenty of time to shoo his cats out the door at least!!!
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
...it was a double-wide mobile home. Once they catch on fire, they go up in a matter of single-digit minutes. Not much time to go look for your pets.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
http://crooksandliars.com/node?page=3
copy/paste:
They called 911 several times, and initially the South Fulton Fire Department would not come.
"The Cranicks told 9-1-1 they would pay firefighters, whatever the cost, to stop the fire before it spread to their house."
....sounds like they called several time before the fire even reached the house!
I suppose the guy was running around frantically looking for $75 though and apparently forgot about the 3 dogs and a cat.
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
In panic you forget about things. And there you are to call them bad pet owners. You are a fuckface Milquetoast. Fuck the lot of you to hell!
Stick that $75 up your arse!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
you should put him on ignore and spare yourself the insanity.
Insanity? What insanity?
far left loon >.<
Are you saying that the fire originated outside their house?
The people called the firefighters before the fire spread to the house?
You should be made at your teachers who were so demonstrably inept.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...with volunteer fire departments. When they roll on a call, they don't discriminate on the basis of who donates and who does not. God bless 'em.
And, Karoli, I like your AAA example. Years ago I worked for USAC, and we never turned anyone away who offered to pay. Many times I would receive a call from someone who had never had coverage, and for a certain fee (can't recall how much...maybe $50) we could run a service call for them.
And that jackass who compared this incident with the fire to someone not paying his car insurance and then expecting an insurance company to cover him after an accident certainly doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. There is no comparison. None.
Same for these folks who say people don't deserve to have fire coverage.
Suppose we had a pay service for police protection. And suppose you are driving your car with your 3 year old child, and you get carjacked and the carjacker drives away with your child in the car. If you didn't pay your protection fee, the police wouldn't have to lift a finger to go after the guy and get your car back, not to mention rescuing your child.
No long ago, in certain urban centers... people had to pay a fee to a specific fire "company" (where you think the name comes from?) which would then put a placard in your house. If your house was in flames, and the specific fire company did not see their placard in front of the house, they would not attempt to extinguish the fire.
In fact, this country has already gone through the "libertarian" utopia phase, it was called most of the XIX and early XX century. It ended up in unmitigated disaster of such magnitude that almost sunk this country entirely. Most people who love to demonize FDR truly do not comprehend how close to self implosion this country came by the early 30s.
Now this situation is a total fuck parade: The county/district did not have a voluntary fire brigade, apparently the owner of the house had already had a fire extinguished prior to this incident. The fire apparently got started due to negligent trash burning. The firefighters showed to extinguish the fire that was affecting the neighbors (and who had paid their fees). The fire apparently took a while to spread, and I just want to know... who the fuck sits there and lets the house burn without making any effort to free their pets or allow them a escape.
Also this is not a new case. Apparently there are plenty of non-incorporated townships in this country who are practically leaching off the services of the adjacent counties (mostly urban centers) who have experienced a big deal of growth during the past 2 decades, among other things, because they advertise lack of local taxes as selling point to move there. The median income of a lot of these places happens to be higher than the one for the urban centers/counties they suck services from.
Libertarians are funny that way... always talking about personal responsibility and welfare queens but without exception they cry bloody murder, when the nanny state they hate so much doesn't come to save their day.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
At the risk of spoiling this discussion by injecting facts into it ...
Mr. Cranick lived in the county, not the city. The city fire department is paid for from the taxes of city (not county) residents. The county chose not to support its own fire department, OR to pay its fair share of the city's costs by taxing county residents (presumably on the grounds that taxes are evil and soshulist). The city nonetheless offers individual coverage to county residents who pay the not especially unreasonable annual fee of $75. Mr. Cranick elected not to pay the $75, and if his house had not caught fire, he would have been $75 ahead of his neighbor who did pay the fee. Yet he still believes that the fire department of a city in which he does not live and to which he does not pay taxes should risk their lives putting out his fire, because shutupthatswhy.
I do not think Mr. Cranick is blameless here, and I think that the county authorities would be better targets than the city for people's (self-)righteous ire.
did Cranick pay the fee for all the previous years, and just fail to pay this year, or had he ever paid the fee?
Until you respect the citizenship of those with which you disagree, you're not a true American.
No one says he didn't. There's no reason to expect that he is lying when he says he just forgot to pay that bill. But even if he didn't, they could have put out the damn fire and THEN figured out the money, don't you think?
since this story is sticking around maybe we'll find out more on this as we go.
Until you respect the citizenship of those with which you disagree, you're not a true American.
This is a Republican county we're talking about. If you gave them that option, the only funds you'd ever collect would be from people whose houses just caught fire. There's a sinister logic to letting the house burn down.
Some of those people must think that when they pay their $75 it entitles them to fire protection. The thought must be very comforting to a Libertarian. But they're wrong. It takes thousands of people all paying their dues for there to even be a fire department to speak of.
You're not saying their $75 creates an entitlement are you? Republicans would be horrified at such a thing.
[/sarcasm]
That's not even ironic. It's the redistribution of wealth to those whose house is on fire. Absolutely reprehensible! The people whose houses caught fire should be forced to repay all the people who paid the fee but whose houses didn't catch fire. That's the Republican way.
No, because (and this is snark) it was more important to teach this guy a lesson.
Y'know, in the same way the mob breaks your kneecaps for not paying up.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Robert E. Howard
the all republican county board chose not to support its own fire department with tax es it already had but decided to build a prison (that wasn't put to a vote by the people) with the money they had from taxes,
The truth will set you free but can you handle the truth?
...what pisses me off is that the county residents voted down a tax increase to fund firefighting services from the adjacent communities. Why? Because taxes are eeeeeeevil. Screw that. When do we ever get to say taxes are NOT evil, they're necessary and they represent payment for those services best paid for by cities, municipalities and yes, even the federal government?
So who is the evil force that pushes people out of the equation? Is it the republicans again?
OK. I read the post. Now who is behind this torching of middle class America? Republicans?
They will have us all on a spit before we admit to their evil. It's such evil that we may not dare believe it until it's too late.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Call them Republicans, TeaBirchers, libertarians, whatever you want. It's the same old meme -- taxes are evil, public services should be private. Gimme a break.
Republicans are narsissistic oportunists. There is no point whatsoever arguing with one, when you could be preventing moderates from making a fatal mistake. Time is short, and there are still a lot of moderates bitter about Obamas troubles. We have to change the subject to the clear and present dangers that the republicans present to them. To us.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Current libertarian/conservative thinking is doing nothing so much as turning us into a meaner society.
CaliforniaMike blogs at All Voices and at his own blogs, http://www.mikerappaport.net/onevoice and at http://oneminutewithmike.blogspot.com.
A more chaotic society, allowing narcissists to exploit us to the fullest.
The conservative judges ruined parts of the web of society. We are still trying to mend it, while republicans run the crossed wires for easy prey.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
I learned that THE ALL-REPUBLICAN COUNTY COUNCIL voted on the $75 fee, which was the 4th least desirable one they came up with.
#1. Add 13 cents A YEAR to property taxes = $546,000 revenue to build fire stations & staff them in rural areas; #2. Add $3 A YEAR to each electric bill = $650,000; #3. Take the money ($550,000) from the general fund--THEY HAD ENOUGH MONEY FROM TAXES IN THE GENERAL FUND; # 4. Assess a $75 fee from each household.
They chose THE LEAST PRACTICAL AND LEAST EFFICIENT METHOD!!
Now, you tell me.....did the County Council do the RIGHT THING? Or not?
Duh!!
“The greatest evildoers are those who don’t remember because they have never given thought to the matter, and, without remembrance, nothing can hold them back,”
These GOP scum are blackhearted and judgmental dupes that care only about their defective voodoo politics instead of the broader public good. They have been brainwashed into thinking taxes are evil whereas the real evil is their callous insensivity and narcisstic sociopathy.
Their slogan: Fuck you, I've got mine.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Yeah, I usually say it's "I've got mine; go get your own."
But yours is so much more descriptive!
BTW, love your Comment at the bottom by Black Elk. Reminds me of one of my favorite books, Touch the Earth--a Self-Portrait of Indian Existence
There are some comments in that book by Black Elk.
“The greatest evildoers are those who don’t remember because they have never given thought to the matter, and, without remembrance, nothing can hold them back,”
Actually, it's more like, "I got mine, and I'm taking yours as well."
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Robert E. Howard
Is the FD on record as having paid the annual $75 fee for the firehouse/themselves, or is that something they overlook?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
...What a bunch of unempathetic pricks, take your $75 and shove it up your ass. The authoritarian ' pull yourself up by your bootstraps' assholes and teabaggers feel they are getting a foothold. They need to be put back into their place, and soon, else all is lost. I despise these power-over bastards/bitches.
"He wrote this book here and the book says ; He made us all to be just like him So, if we're dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side".
Frank Zappa
And that is the cost of what the insurance has to pay out.
If a house catches on fire in this neighborhood, and the owner has not paid his fee, he can do so on the spot when the fire dept. arrives and the FD puts out the fire and the damage is confined to a small section of the home. Payout by the ins. co. is, say, $20,000 to reconstruct the damaged part of the home.
Or...as in this situation the FD refuses to do so much as to throw a bottle of water on the fire. The entire home is destroyed, and the insurance payout is much, much higher.
we can build prisons, but we can't fight fires.
we can pay for wars, but we can't pay for schools at every single level of education.
we can pay for tax cuts for the wealthy, but we can't keep people working.
when are we going to get our priorities straight?
... let me ask: Apparently he had insurance, since they reportedly have already paid something on the loss, why don't they require that the owner pay for fire protection, or better yet charge it in his annual premium?
Other than that: 'If you know the rules and decide to play, don't complain'. What should the nearby community fire department do to enforce payment for service outside their district? State law (in CA) requires automobile owners to carry liability insurance (State law), but they have the option of not issuing a license plate to those who don't want to pay. - Saying 'I forgot' is a lame excuse. I hate late fees and interest charges, that's why all my bills are set up to autopay. I have not paid a late fee or interest (except my home) in more than 25 years. If I lived under those conditions, I would certainly do that with the $75.
If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem
i couldn't do it
my explanation is that i am out of work, but there are lots of other reasons why people do not keep up with their bills, including sheer stupidity
but do we want even our most moronic neighbor's house to burn down if we can prevent it? do we want his grandchildren's pets to burn up in that fire? do we want to bear the collective impact upon our insurance rates? perhaps losing his home will destabilize him so that he loses his job, falls off the wagon, or starts beating his wife . . . do we want to bear the communal costs of those things happening?
you are very fortunate to be financially stable and bill savvy . . . but, trust me, fortunes turn . . . and if yours do, i hope that your community does not turn its back on you
The county supervisors or whatever they are could have opted for a 13-cent increase to property taxes. 13 cents. But golly gee wally, that would have been a tax increase!!! can't have a tax increase, nonononono. So instead they assess a $75/year fee on homeowners that might get them firefighting services, assuming their check is received on time, recorded, deposited and goes through. On the other hand, if anything breaks down along the way, well...bye bye house.
It's indefensible.
the city i live in, was once a small "ville" now we have an nfl team and over a million people. before we became a metropolis, we were a separate and divided city and county. we always had volunteer fire depts. across 1000 square miles we had people willing to help their fellow man. this is what is wrong with this country today. we have assholes who care not for the well being of their neighbors. as rand paul says "it's every man for himself" and fuck the rest of you.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
There is lots of precedent law on such situations and the rule is always the same: the public authority must perform the duty, if only to protect the large interests of the community, and then the deadbeat failing to pay the license or fee is compelled to pay the fee plus a fine for non-compliance. "No tickee, no washee" is simply not an argument for services related to community health, safety and welfare. Very expensive error on the part of the City of South Fulton, Tennessee. The only saving argument was that the rural area in which the fire occurred failed to organize any sort of volunteer fire department, and instead relied on fire protection on a subscription basis for protection. Again, the fire department did swing into action when the fire began to threaten a paid-up neighbor's trailer, thereby exposing themselves to the danger that otherwise was not encountering. Hoo boy, this will be expensive for South Fulton.
Even if I paid my fee every year and I knew my neighbour did not, I'd still want them to put out his fire. How can people sit by and watch someone's home, and life, and pets, go up in smoke when the means to prevent it are right there. It's inhuman. Is our only worth to each other fiscal?
far left loon >.<
We are more than the sum of our bank balance. Or our balance sheets. Or our net worth. Much, much more.
That's the way it looks with the Rethuglicans...if we drones can't give them a good return on their investment, we're useless and don't deserve to live. Apparently Mr. Cranick wasn't carrying his share of the load, so they let his house burn down.
Classy.
“The greatest evildoers are those who don’t remember because they have never given thought to the matter, and, without remembrance, nothing can hold them back,”
and I thought one of them is that their contentions were resolved thousands and thousands of years ago when Cain asked am I my brother's keeper, to which the Lord said you must go build cities. Well, getting beyond the gloss, wasn't the correct answer to the Lord's question a resounding yes?
In addition, the whole problem with libertarianism and the mindset that I can do whatever I want is that this then begs the question, what kind of society would that produce? To which a libertarian has no answer or must answer, none. Liberalism of course has an answer and therefore trumps libertarianism with all due respect to the Ron Paulites: all rights are limited in a society and we all have the same 100% share in everything equal to everyone else. They can also be encapsulated as do no harm and you own nothing outright. This can leave lots of room for interpretation but not if you always return to the first principle of do no harm. The debate however is essentially moot because no man has any rights in nature and vice versa, man only has rights in a society. There seems no other way out of the rabbit hole except to accept liberalism and equal rights for all. You can call it communism or socialism if you want.
Having watched a few houses burn down in rural areas, it is very rare that a fire department actually "saves" a house. By the time they come, the house is a total right-off. The plus side to them putting it out is you might actually get to save some soggy and fire-damaged personal possessions. The downside is you are left with a half erect burnt out shell which is far more costly to remove than letting the fire do it on its own. If this guy has insurance he will come out OK. He does not seem particularly sorry for himself.
The guy that really benefited in this was the next door guy, who had paid the 75. If his house had been left to burn, when it could have stopped in its tracks, that I would consider close to criminal.
write-off
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
From what I understand if the fire fighters had stepped on to Cradnick's property and been injured they would have been SOL in regard to their disability benefits and workers compensation. In other words they would be out of work with no pay or medical benefits! Who among us would risk that? And county taxes do not pay for the CITY FIRE DEPARTMENTS! Everyone needs to get this fact. Crandnick was rolling the dice to save $75 and they came up snake eyes. As to paying on the spot the fire fighters still would have not been covered because Cradnick wasn't on the list and the insurance company requires this in order to cover the fire fighters.
All people have it-some refuse to act on it allowing self interest to cut it off mid-stream. Empathy , or lack there of - is really what's wrong with America today.Perhaps we are de-evolving to a more primative state where survival of the fittest-neighbor turning on neighbor-is the new norm. We live in a me first world where- "I've got mine "has replaced "we are in this together."
Just try to have a conversation with a neighbor anymore about anything.All you hear are talking points from Fox or Rush. Conversation has become an "us against them" meme, and if you don't share in the hate fest people are openly hostile.
It's a sad -sad thing-this America we live in.
Would stand there and watch as someone's house burned-and do NOTHING. Ask yourselves that question.This is not about some pawltry fee- but common DECENCY.
Once I witnessed woman being beaten by a man outside a post office. A group of MEN stood there-as if in a daze and did nothing until I screamed at them to do something. The postal workers did nothing as well-not even call the fricking police until I SCREAMED at them. Cowards.
But it wasn't Cranick's fire, it was his neighbor's fire. The neighbor paid the $75, but the fire department refused to put out a contracted for protection simply because the neighbor lost control of his burn.
So the fire department ripped off both Cranick and his neighbor, as the neighbor is now responsible under tort law for the damage caused by the neighborhood's fire.
And unless the contract specifically specifies that the service does not extend beyond the contractee's fence lines, when it is the contractee's fire, then the fire department is responsible for the damage to Cranick's fire damage as well.
If a good lawyer gets a hold of this both Cranick and the neighbor could sue for breach of contract and damages.
I suspect the fire department is in breach of contract on more than one issue.
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