CA Woman Killed By Police After Confronting Census Worker With Gun
In early April, CNN's Erik Erickson said he refused to fill out a U.S. Census form and that he would pull out his wife's shotgun if there was an attempt to arrest him for it.
Well, it appears that a woman in Yuba City, California decided she didn't want a census worker at her house either so she pulled out a gun when one showed up at her house -- and she paid for her stupidity with her life.
A routine visit by a U.S. Census Worker on Thursday evening turned deadly when Yuba City police officers shot and killed a woman they said had first threatened the worker with a gun, then later confronted officers with a shotgun.
Sutter County authorities have identified the woman as Victoria Roger-Vasselin, 67, and arrested Lionel Craig Patterson, 51, who was with Roger-Vasselin at the house on Mariner Loop when the shooting happened.
Sonny Le, a census regional spokesman, said the worker, a Yuba City resident, showed her badge and introduced herself to a man who answered the door. From inside the house, the worker said she heard a woman saying that they do not want to participate in the census survey.
When the census worker tried to further explain the process, she said she saw a gun pointed at her.
Officers arrived at the Mariner Loop house about 10 p.m. Pavey said a man answered the door with a handgun. Officers successfully persuaded him to give up his gun, but a brief struggle ensued at the entryway when the man resisted arrest, Pavey said.
As an officer was trying to handcuff the man on the ground, the woman came outside with a shotgun. Officers ordered her to put down the gun, but "she ignored the order and continued to advance with the shotgun pointing at the officers," Pavey said. Two officers fired. Roger-Vasselin died at the scene, authorities said.
Read on...
I can hear the sound of right wing nutters' heads exploding all across the country already. I have no doubt someone on Fox or the usual suspect in the world of hate radio will deem this a government execution of a brave American who stood up against President Obama and his evil, socialist empire.
I abhor violence of any kind, and while tragic, this woman acted foolishly and ended up paying with her life. Perhaps we'll find out in the coming days and weeks whether she was suffering from some form of mental illness or that her actions were motivated by political or media influences.
"I abhor violence of any kind, and while tragic, this woman acted foolishly and ended up paying with her life."
While I don't share your feeling about violence, I do think this is tragic and is the end result of listening to and believing wingnuts.
Pulling guns on government employees and/or cops NEVER ends happily.
Nor should it. She was ordered to put it down, ignored that order, and kept the weapon pointed at the police. She got what she earned. I know I'm supposed to pretend to be sympathetic, but I can't. You threaten people with a weapon, especially cops, and you get killed. Stupidity shouldn't be just painful, it should be lethal. Too bad it's usually lethal for someone innocent. Not this time, and I'm not going to pretend to be sad about it.
Democracy is the road to socialism. ~ Karl Marx
woman that would not put down the2 meter6 ft broken bloom handle.husband or son killed by same cops,surrounded old and paid so HUGE.......with a stick...----jump to nigerian,n.y.city(De Ollo?,27?42?bullets,yeras ago, cause he went for his oh so proud papers"years of work....a......lot......of......work.....for years...earned it,saved it,earned it....... "yes
i'll get my wallet..spoken in afracan
"in african only imagin cut me back,ii knew that,but i had a nim.to post,edit,send it to my self,off subject,and i was writting to my self....half way through IT,cancer sucks....i nedds to get healthy,if it is to be,it is up to me......got it.good night babe.
PCP net,control her.......this is yery not new. blessings to all
....the fools do not realize,a population that can ,..... not paticipate .............in the 'economy'...,can not keep it viable!..........."we are listening,.......and we're not blind.,......this is your life....this is your time."
WHAT?
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that didn't quite follow that.
I did follow enough to figure out that someone watches too much TV. PCP net? Aside from the fact that very few police departments happen to issue nets to police officers, apparently he's not familiar with the cliche "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight." Common sense should also tell you that you don't fight a shotgun with a net, either.
Yeah... I can't read insane scribbles either. I tried, I really did, but I just can't break the cipher code for that encryption.
Democracy is the road to socialism. ~ Karl Marx
...the same mental illness shared by all Fox right-wing nutters.
The prism in which she sees reality isn't something she could take medication for. I mean, is thorazine really going to counteract a diet of nothing but Fox?
a diet of mr. roger's neighborhood? would that do it?
When the Harvard professor was arrested and taken into custody for having a verbal disagreement with the police that turned into a national "beer bonding" incident with the President, the right-wingnuts screamed that the professor was "asking for it" because he was confronting the police.
Now we have a nutbag pulling a gun on cops after pulling a gun on a government employee and threatening deadly force. I'd say that was much worse than a professor who was clearly unarmed confronting police over what he believed was an abuse of their authority. If the verbal dissenter goes to jail, then the physically violent dissenter should have been met with appropriate force.
Yeah, it's too bad that the person was shot. But that's usually what happens when you pull a gun on police and refuse to put down your weapon when commanded.
.
Her Second Amendment rights were being infringed upon, obviously.
No, I don't think this. She threatened an unarmed federal employee and police officers.
The freeps are wondering why she, the census worker was there at night. seems they think she was there around midnight. and I can't tell who they sympathize with (HAHAHAHA)
. . . and he's being held without bail "on suspicion of assault with a firearm on a peace officer."
I hope that doesn't complicate the census too much.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
if the resident has a gun in the household and if they are planning to use it on the census worker who comes calling.
Way to triple the workload of the Secret Service. :p
How many people were there on April 1st? The gentleman still alive will either answer or pay a fine.
He's on quite the roll when it comes to breaking laws.
I assume that includes reading RedState and watching Faux Snooze.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5mJQGMqJvw
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/newsmedia/...
It was bound to happen eventually. As much as I feel for the woman and her family for her death, she clearly acted like a maniac and had to be dealt with in the manner that she chose... with guns. If she hadn't been so paranoid and pulled out that shotgun, it wouldn't have ended the way it did. Thanks to that nut CNN hired, Erik Erickson, who made those comments about census workers... I wonder how he feels about this. Knowing wing nuts, he'll act completely innocent as if he said or did nothing wrong. What pathetic cowards.
People liken him have no compassion for others.
I agree that gun nuts are delusional cowards. My take on this is, when people use guns to threaten or intimidate other people (this "open carry" business is about intimidation), they shouldn't be surprised when those other people shoot back.
Actually part of the reason why you would want open carry is to scare away criminals BEFORE they strike. It is the same reason why security cameras have great blinking lights, or homes have their security system stickers out in the open. They want you to see it and go away.
In the end I guess it is about intimidation, but intimidation of would-be attackers.
And guess who gets shot first if you're open-carrying in a bank, store, walking down the street, etc. and someone is intending to do something criminal.
Yeah, that's right... you. And probably in the back.
Very true. You don't have to tactical training to know that you eliminate the greatest threat first.
Too many people substitute television and movies for common sense and real-world knowledge.
"Too many people substitute television and movies for common sense and real-world knowledge."
You know, this was uncalled for and I'm putting both of you on ignore after this. I'm not remotely interested in having a discussion with two hostiles.
work that way buddy.
Census workers are carrying guns now?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...that the census worker was armed. In fact, she "was shaken up and went to her car." Called her boss, who told her to call law enforcement.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
I think ysb was just having some fun with the title, MaryK.
:)
It's hard to fathom that some of you are missing the fact that someone carrying a gun was trespassing on these people and their home. It would be so fucking nice if people would get morally consistent.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
[I was just thinking: "Give me a reason," and you did. Thank you-Sitemonitor]
. . . and making constitutional protections so easily dismissed on the idiotic basis of profanity.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
your most basic of constitutional protections.
here's a hint: C&L is not the government.
now, go reread your rights, and try and figure it out.
It's a privately-owned site, and monitored in order to maintain some semblance of communication. There are rules. Too much profanity drives some readers away, so in the interest of intelligent discourse, I suggest you come up with more words that are not profane.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
I have no problem with the deletions whatsoever. I'd have done the same. My problem is with an idiot who has a valid point to make and gets disappeared for being a jerk about it.
I probably should have communicated that better, but I'm getting hit from quite a few sides right now and typing rather quickly.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
the idiot that has a valid point gets disappeared? Where have you made a valid point and how do you think you were disappeared?
virtue.
He had some points on constitutional protections but couldn't seem to make them without swearing at people.
So he's bye-bye (as it should be), and I'm alone here.
Or did I make a mistake by assuming you weren't calling me an idiot?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Instead of dancing through the thread sans-point.
or is it "If the shoe fits wear it". I'm so confused.
Now I know where (or where not) to give the benefit of the doubt.
My mistake.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
part gets a little fuzzy. But as we can see, many of us post here allot and consider it our favorite site. I can't contribute right now because I barely make enough for the basics--maybe if I took another job instead of playing on the internet I could afford to.
But its summer on the coast of Maine, so I'm reluctant to work another slave wage job--one is enough. I've got most of my co-workers repeating my favorite motto of the Russians during the Soviet era:
"They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."
what don't you get? The census worker wasn't armed or trespassing. NUTBALL
Cops were not trespassing.
that's the law.
me-oww!
that's called responding to a threat.
I guess it's hard for some people to understand,
but when police are called to a scene, they are not trespassing.
. . . after she was told she wasn't welcome and refused to leave. Unless they had a warrant, the police were both armed and trespassing. But all this is based on extremely limited information.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Special dispensation from the pope, or the fed. But a census worker, doing census work, is legally not a trespasser.
me-oww!
. . . where she refused to leave.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
no such thing as a trespasser when it's a census worker. That law does not apply. not matter how you ask them.
me-oww!
I'm going to stick to this one.
I'm not sure where a census worker, or any other government worker other than law enforcement with a warrant (or exigent circumstances) is allowed to invade property and remain despite the owners wishes.
Such a concept is more than frightening. Does she get to stay the night? Hound and harass until she gets the information she wants?
There's no way in heck I want to give anyone that kind of power - let alone a census temp.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
that's all the cops need to show up.
and your hypotheticals are ludicrous in the extreme.
. . . and so vaguely that I'm not sure how to respond.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
it's too complicated?
But the burden of communicating is on the communicator.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
well, at least you admit it now
and that's something we can agree on.
It seems that reading comprehension isn't for everyone.
When a gun is pulled on a visitor.
They do not need a warrant to investigate further when a gun is pulled and targeted on them.
they are exempt from trespass law. I didn't write it, I'm just reporting what the PSA on my news said a couple of weeks ago. I'm trying to find sources.
me-oww!
I can wait.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Chapter 7, Subchapter II
§ 221. It requires a citizen answer the questions asked by the census worker. § 222 deals with lying or giving false answers; § 223 deals with the requirement of assistance by citizens to the enumerator. Nothing mentions trespassing per se, however refusing to assist an enumerator by allow said enumerator on the property to make counts, and refusing to answer questions are infractions.
Assaulting a federal employee or threatening a federal employee is serious business. Try knocking the shit out of your mailman and see what happens...
You know, the census is ordered by the Constitution. These nuts and their guns know all about the 2nd, but not the requirement to count...
me-oww!
And thanks for the effort.
I've really tried to keep your observation from yesterday in mind on this thread. It hasn't been easy, but thanks.
The Constitution does require a census, but is fairly silent on exactly how it is done. The Constitution also protects other rights, and while I am admittedly protective of Second Amendment rights, I'm also protective of the Fourth and Fifth as well.
I think their violation is more of a cause for concern than a possible $100 fine.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You did not explain how anything was violated.
There was no unlawful search that would require a warrant.
The fourth and fifth amendments are not relevant to this sad circumstance, and I don't see why you are conflating them.
They are also for arrests. They are also not always constitutionally necessary if the circumstances so require. I'm just not seeing that here, but we have very little information to work with.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Arrests are frequently made without a warrant, in fact, probably more often than with them.
And the arrest issue isn't relevant in this case, because the census worker wasn't attempting to make an arrest.
and citizens obligations and enumerator and supervisor obligations. It get reworked from time to time;stuff added, stuff repealed.
And I have found, sometimes it's best to walk away. It is just an internet message board chat thing. I don't do this anymore if I feel myself getting angry. Well not much anyway :). Last night I was mess with a n00b troll, but I was lmao while she was going nuts.
Anyway, that's just me. I hate it when I'm pissed at people I like, so I had t change it up a wee bit so that doesn't happen. Doesn't mean it won't happen again, but all I can do is try...
:D
me-oww!
Aside from Nicole Belle herself, I haven't seen anyone with sharper claws :)
D'oh! That was a play on your handle not a gender thing (man, I'm getting twitchy).
Corruption favors the wealthy.
:)
I'm trying to save that for baddies...
me-oww!
because I know a crazy mofo in NOLA who did that when the bastard maced his dog for no reason (according to Norry, the assaulter). It was not a pretty story for the guy. And no mofo had a warrant.
me-oww!
$500
who is a neighbor. I told him I would not give my full date of birth. Just the year. He was nice and understood. Mostly I was concerned about identify theft.
Most census workers (including friends of mine) are temps, and the information collected is sold by the Commerce Dept (Census is under Commerce Dept) for marketing reasons. I don't doubt that some of the people take the work (probably especially data entry) for the sole purpose of identity theft.
So for me, it comes down to practical reasons. I had a friend whose identity was stolen by a LOCAL cop, who ended up getting jail time (but not enough time), but it cost my friend thousands of dollars to repair his identity, put a strain on his marriage that primarily led to divorce (yes, his wife was a case) and left him without money he needed for cancer treatment. It took over a year for him to get it all cleared up. He was so sick he thought he was going to only last a few months, but eventually his cancer was treated and he is doing OK now.
So if they want to come after me for that, let 'em. I really put up resistance to all these companies wanting information. Local chain stores ask for a zip code at check out for marketing reasons. I tell them, no zip or no sale. We have to fight for our privacy.
The Census can't sell your data. By law your personal data can't be released for 72 years. Only the numbers, like how many home owners, which races lives in what areas, how a city's population is aging or getting younger. These are the ways the Census crunches the numbers for the gov agencies that need statistics. But names, birth dates, those aren't given -- and there are severe penalties when they catch you.
Sorry about your friend, but you'll notice it was cop who sold his info, not a census worker.
And for heaven's sake, why would any company pay the government when they can just mine Google?
I worked in the office, transcribing information from the paper forms into computer databases. The supervisor was positively tyrannical about confidentiality; a number of employees were severely reprimanded for joking about some of the responses we saw on the forms. Repeated offenses resulted in suspensions and firings. Some may not want to believe it, but the Census does take privacy seriously.
It's part of the oath all Census workers take.
because enumerators are sworn for life to keep the shit confidential. I don't think it's legal to sell that. Selling census info would be a breach of confidentiality. For privacy reasons in the US Census records are not allowed to be released for 72 years, that is, for the first time in 2012, the public will be allowed to view the Census records from 1940. I'd like to see the work on that claim, that the fresh census info is sold..
Sections 9 and 214 of Title 13
Now public records, like bnky CAN be sold, but the govt doesn't do that; people view the records and take the info from those records and sell it.
me-oww!
There are heavy privacy protections written into census law. But there were also heavy protections for my telecommunications information - both civil and criminal.
Then, almost every telecommunications provider [not including Quest (go Quest!)] violated both the civil and criminal protections millions of times. No criminal charges whatsoever were brought, and the civil suits were dismissed because of a retroactive immunity.
Anyone believing their census information is protected isn't aware of recent history.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
But it works.
Care to discuss further?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I AM aware of recent history. I do choose to believe my info is as safe as it can be in this day and age with the census. They wanted a lot less info than I had to give up for my bnky, and id thieves couldn't go as far on my census info as they did on my hospital info.
me-oww!
I'm gonna start a new one below.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Where are you getting this?
She was allowed to be within the property line and even to tell the residents that they must, by law, answer her questions or face a penalty for breaking the law. Stop second guessing things, fiver.
And if they don't want to answer, the census worker can leave and make whatever arrangements necessary for the $100 fine.
I'm just second guessing sending guys with guns (but apparently no warrant for arrest that I can tell from the info we have) to her home at night. A 67 year old woman is dead for what amounts to a $100 (or less) violation. My last traffic ticket was nearly three times that (10 mph over).
Corruption favors the wealthy.
she brandished a weapon. This is her doing, her responsibility. People keep saying she was 'disturbed.' Maybe not so much her responsibility then, but the shooting occurred because of that. Not because she wouldn't answer a question,
I can not-answer a question from a govt employee without a gun.
Had she closed the door w/o doing that, then she qualifies for 'just a fine.'
me-oww!
All we're aware of is the police side of the story, and they have to justify killing a 67 year old woman in her own home.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
They executed a 67 year-old woman for not answering the census.
START USING YOUR BRAIN.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
More and more wingnut every conversation. You actually want to talk, or do you just want to take your shots? Never mind. You've made that answer quite clear.
I have a problem with this killing. Many here don't and that's even more troubling to me. This woman was killed in her own home having harmed no one.
Was there a crime? Maybe. We don't know. Once again we have limited and very one sided information. A new twist is that instead of Drill Baby Drill your recent trend appears to be arguing Kill Baby Kill. Care to post a picture of this woman's dead, perhaps handcuffed, body to make a minor, wholly inaccurate point about license plates? Maybe she used a computer and is therefore responsible for the Gulf oil spill. Who cares? She's dead. Celebrate your Authority!
I've tried to avoid taking personal shots at you, Andy - not perfectly by any means - but I've tried far more than you. That's done now, hotshot; now I'll play by your rules.
You claim to know what happened whenever Authority kills, yet your sole reason appears to be whatever Authority tells you to fucking think. Work that way if you can stomach it, and you'll have plenty of company, but know that there will still be people like me who will fight those like you.
People who will fight authority intruding, picking a fight and the using the provoked reaction to justify whatever they want to do - including killing.
I don't know that that's what happened in this case, but you don't know shit about it either. You simply buy whatever Authority tells you and viciously attack those who disagree (with allcaps? WTF? Are you that desperate?).
You tell me why she was killed? I'll bet you four prime Stanley Cup Tickets that you can't do it without reference to authority that has a vested interest in its own PR. Some little birds will eagerly accept whatever Leader Bird regurgitates. I'm not one of them.
We do know one thing: an old lady was killed who didn't harm anyone. Wanna argue about "old"? You might score a point, after all 67 isn't necessarily "old," just like teenage boys aren't "under age."
Yeah, that's where your credibility is with me. "Win" on the technicality. Congratufuckinlations.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
This woman threatened another human being. A human being that was there by letter of the law in every way. A human being that was unarmed and would have been gone after asking a dozen questions in about 10 minutes. A human being sworn to protect not only the Constitution, but also any and all information collected. The woman then refused to cooperate with police. She broke oh so many laws in less than 24 hours.
If you cite "limited information" as the reason for being so skeptical, then shouldn't you be skeptical across the board and entertain the possibility that maybe the lady's still alive?
That's it. Blech.
Thanks, C & L for the ignore option, because this delusional person richly deserves it.
Thanks for the reminder. Now I don't have to see the stupid crap that idiot writes. Some people are just too stupid to be allowed to own a computer.
Democracy is the road to socialism. ~ Karl Marx
Point 1: If I call and complain about noisy neighbors in the middle of the night, the cops, responding to a complaint, have every right to knock on the offender's door and tell them to pipe down. They don't need a warrant.
Point 2: It is not trespassing for someone to step up on your porch and ring your doorbell for a legitimate reason. That is why doorbells and doorknockers exist in the first place.
Point 3: Any officers responding to a situation as mentioned in point 1, above, who are confronted with a show of force have a legitimate right to respond with force.
Point 4: Someone calling at a house as mentioned in point 2, above, who is confronted with a show of force is a victim of assault and has a right to call for a police response, leading to the situations mentioned in points 2 and 3, above.
That's all.
a census worker is a federal employee the same as that postal employee that comes onto your property to deliver your mail.
you may not: touch, harass, hinder, or assault said employee from conducting their normal employment duties under penalty of law end of story.
they do not have the power to enter your home. they do however have every right to knock on your front door in an attempt to meet with you to carry out their duties.
. . . they should leave.
A 67 year old woman is dead. I get that she refused to respect the authoritah, and exercised her own authoritah, but she's dead over a minor infraction, and just because she may have been an idiot (we still don't know all that happened) doesn't mean the authorities couldn't have handle this without killing her.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Or is a newspaper account based solely on police sources all that is necessary?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
If the cops either executed or accidentally killed the woman, why didn't they then execute or "accidentally" kill the witness- you know, the guy they were going to question in the first place?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
He's being held on "suspicion of assault with a firearm on a peace officer" which seems to be something that happened after they "were going to question [him] in the first place."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
the woman (and man) could have further refused to peacefully participate in the census, instead they chose to commit a felony and respectively threatened a federal employee on duty with a firearm and a police officer during an attempt to make an arrest.
by my reckoning, an officer with a shotgun aimed at him has every right, and moreover, a duty, to kill their assailant.
Perhaps I was mistaken. Gotta link?
[fiver, it's time you put this one to bed. You've posted this to the point that it is spam. We heard you the third time. Please move on. Thank you-Sitemonitor]
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Or were they going there to question someone, Clarence Darrow?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
see above; I'll wait.
[No it's over-Sitemonitor]
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...why did the boyfriend/husband survive the whole scene with nary a scratch?
C'mon, you've been really good with the conspiracy theories lately, I'm sure you can come up with two or three explanations for that.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
What were they there for? If it was for "questioning," then it's perfectly appropriate that they be told to go away. Unless they had a subpoena, but then the questioning would probably be done in an environment where an old lady didn't have to be shot dead.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...if the guy didn't answer the door with gun in hand.
On edit: Read this.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
But I hardly meant to spam. Still, the bed idea seems like a good one.
Here's a video with a scary start and a very cool end for your trouble. Good night.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
information she WANTS. IT is federally mandated in the constitution. You know, that goddamn piece of paper that is useless except for the part that says you can have a gun to point at various people/things.
How possibly did you make the quantum leap from this census worker attempting to explain why she was asking for the information to 'she refused to leave'?!?
sigh...
I can be thankful that the majority of US citizens are politely participating in the Census. Those few who insist upon making it something that it's not apparently have entirely too much time on their hands. Perhaps they might use some of that precious time honing their limited comprehension skills.
My father, who is a very good man, was deluded on the census thanks to Fix News. After initially objecting to doing it, and thinking there was Bill of Rights reasons to oppose answering it, was finally convinced when I read the law to him. I also read the section of the Constitution and the perceived applicable Amendments. the second time the census taker came by... he answered all the questions. Sometimes, just sometimes, it's nice to win one. Fox Noise did a very good job of scaring elderly Americans, but the facts can win out from time to time.
Democracy is the road to socialism. ~ Karl Marx
My sister, who is a very good person, is deluded about faux and Rush and Beck... she's 16 years older than me and about a gazillion times more conservative.
However, she completed her census form and mailed it in, thus saving US taxpayers a significant bit of money--something respondents might consider when they answer the door to an intrepid census worker.
I realize some people didn't receive their census questionnaire (I'm one of those). To all of those non-responders who will inevitably find a census worker on their doorstep: please, please, please just complete the interview. A good enumerator will be able to finish in 10 minutes or less.
. . . that I am not aware of.
But I would still disagree with the proposition that a 67 year old woman should be shot dead over a petty offense.
If a salesman is told told the customer is not interested, she should leave. Explaining why the customer must be interested is the same as not leaving.
Shooting the salesman is way out of hand, but that isn't the case here. Based on the extremely limited, and completely one-sided information we have, the census worker worker pushed her point where she had no right to push. Most importantly, the census worker was not harmed in any way.
The 67 year old woman was shot dead.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
She wasn't shot dead for refusing to file her census. She was shot dead for refusing arrest while simultaneously threatening officers with a loaded gun, in the same manner that her houseguest/housemate was NOT shot dead for surrendering his weapon peacefully.
asking an IRS agent that is there about not paying taxes to leave. Do you think they will? The census is a mandated CONSTITUTIONAL event. This person was with the federal government doing a federally mandated task.
or domestic violence, or any violence for that matter.
Someone must have gone to Bob Jones Law School here.
no one with a gun was trespassing on their land, a federal worker came with a pen and paper. it would be fucking nice if you knew what you were talking about
Either that or they could throw bullets really hard.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
the most basic mechanics of how police respond to crimes.
it's a crime to threaten a federal worker.
crime is reported.
cops show up, responding to report, legally.
however, I don't expect you to grasp this as you still haven't wrapped your mind around what free speech is, and why it doesn't apply to a privately owned message board.
And what are you talking about free speech and a privately owned message board? Are you claiming to be John Amato's sock puppet?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
That would under normal circumstances require a warrant?
They opened the door to find a handgun pointed directly at them, talked the possessor out of his threat and STILL did not fire until the other person refused to put down her shotgun and made the decision to "martyr" herself.
Do you ever read before you react?
"What did the police do [t]hat would under normal circumstances require a warrant?"
My answer would be your next four words: "They opened the door."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Apologies for my confusing statement but...
Read the article first before posting and this whole confusion would not happen.
Knocking on the door does not require a warrant. The officers did not open the door. The homeowners opened the door. The officers responded to the homeowner threatening with a loaded firearm.
And the death of 67 year old woman is justified? I can't do that. If she committed a crime, go to the judge, get a warrant, arrest her. If there's a flight danger or other exigent circumstances, a warrantless arrest is appropriate.
I just don't see it from the very limited (and probably disputed) facts available.
Thank you for your change of tone.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
And I'm certainly not justifying this.
As more information comes to light, I may rethink my opinion of the local authorities and their adherence to state/federal law, but for right now, I do not assign extra blame.
I take no glee in this in the same manner that i recall some conservatives taking when a pro-Palestinian state protestor in gaza gets crushed with a bulldozer. This sucks, and it's horrifying that it has become a partisan issue that people will martyr themselves over.
And I agree completely. Peace.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
warrants have never been necessary when a crime is reported.
sorry to burst your ignorance bubble.
as for free speech, no, silly, I'm not JA.
however, he does own this site.
also, JA is not the government.
NOW, after that knowledge sinks into your overly thick head, go read the first amendment again, and try to figure out why it doesn't apply here.
at all.
The First Amendment has nothing to do with anything I've said.
Repeat: What are you talking about?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I was responding to you.
something you posted.
about free speech.
was it too long ago for you to remember?
are you unable to follow the threading?
if it's all too complicated for you, perhaps you could go watch Sesame Street, they have some jingles you might like.
And read the whole sub-thread.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
it will do you good to reread everything.
You said: "The Constitution also protects other rights, and while I am admittedly protective of Second Amendment rights, I'm also protective of the Fourth and Fifth as well."
So, it appears you could actually care less about the First, and it seems you would have no problem with being forced to have troops stay in your house at your expense (Third).
Those things hurt when they get hard.
I would think all the neo constitutional scholars that have beckoned for liberty and other 3 corner hat words would know that the census is mandated every 10 years. Maybe Fox and the right wing nut media could have done more to prepare their audience that if they do not send in their census forms, a census taker has to come to their door. Which also costs us taxpayers more. The next census will be in 2020 like it or not.
We don't carry guns, we're not allowed to. The only weapon we have is a sharp No. 2 pencil, and maybe a can of pepper spray for dogs. (Our choice, our dime.)
We are allowed to cross onto private property to complete the surveys, just like a postman is allowed on your property to deliver the mail. And by law, everyone gets counted, if you refuse there are fines. And your personal info (name, birthdates, etc) can't be released for 72 years -- until 2082.
I've encountered some seriously spooky people, and have had some outrageously racist and sexist comments shouted my way -- but no one's pulled a gun on me yet, thank heaven. If you refuse, we'll see if we can get the basic information from willing neighbors, or maybe landlords. If not another team will show up at the door.
The woman's mistake was pulling the shotgun. Otherwise, the census worker would just have marked down a refusal and let her supervisors deal with it. By threatening violence, and threatening the police, the woman escalated everything.
This was sad and needless. And I blame Beck, Erickson, Limbaugh and everyone of the Faux-crowd that lies about what we're doing and why. This woman's blood is on their hands.
mailman. He trespasses every day by your rather idiotic definition.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
We are allowed, by law, to ignore private property/trespassing signs and boundaries. We can't enter homes uninvited, but that's about the limit of where we can go. Congratulations on your knowledge of legal vs illegal.
. . . whether the police showed up with a warrant for her arrest.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Actually the census worker would be classified as an invitee:
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2002/olrdata/jud/rpt/20...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
They were not operating a business in the home.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Also they were working "to the mutual benefit of the visitor and land possessor", captain obtuse.
Not the captain obtuse part. I got that. Who was working "to the mutual benefit of the visitor and land possessor"? And where is that quote from?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You apparently didn't read.
Did you read the next few words? They went something like: "The Connecticut Supreme Court."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Indicated that you were paying attention to it. If you did not consider it worth replying to, don't argue "They were not operating a business in the home".
Especially since he link provides THREE kinds of invitees...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
. . . decades ago. It has nothing whatsoever to do with this; it is completely off point. I just wasn't going out of my way to point that out until the whole captain obtuse thing. Believe it or not, ysb, I do try to avoid some fights.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
It doesn't matter what California did; census workers are federal.
And some states have merged the licensee with invitees since they both involve generally the same standard of care.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm exhausted with this. Peace.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Not on your say so...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
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