Bringing A Handshake and A Smile To A Knife Fight
John Amato and I frequently Monday morning quarterback the news shows and the pundits invited on to represent the "left" side of the conversation. Most of the time, I'll admit, we're puzzled by how that particular person is considered on the left (Joke Line, I'm looking at you). John has done some media training and I'm just dipping my toes into the media appearances (you can hear my segment discussing the Sunday shows on The Nicole Sandler Show live every Monday at www.radioornot.com or check out the podcasts) because we both feel so passionately that we need strong, unapologetic liberal voices out there to pierce through the right wing noise.
So I'm thrilled that we're seeing high visibility liberals like Arianna Huffington and Markos Moulitsas on This Week on a semi-regular basis. For years, it wouldn't have happened.
But after watching this clip, the substance of which Heather discussed on Sunday, I want to speak to a fatal flaw in appearances like Arianna's and Markos's.
As I expected, both of them did their homework and were armed with facts to support their side. That's what we do: we present facts and hope that the other side will observe the rules of debate. But look who they were debating. Do you honestly think that Liz Cheney is going to argue fairly? Of course not. She lies right in the faces of Markos and Arianna (and more importantly, the viewer who may not have those facts in hand) when she says it's absolutely not true that Halliburton was fined millions of dollars for defrauding the federal government. Note how Arianna laughingly says she can't wait for Politifact (a supposedly non-partisan fact-check organization through the St Petersburg Times) for their verdict on her factual accuracy. As of this writing, more than 36 hours from the broadcast, and Politifact has remained suspiciously silent on Liz Cheney, but only too happy to go after Markos for a slip of the tongue that he immediately acknowledged afterward.
So clearly, having the grasp of the facts and/or counting on the anchor/fact check organization to expect truthfulness from their guests doesn't work. Nor does expecting Liz Cheney and George Will to be fair, and not dismissive, as they trot out the strawman that liberals even blame the demise of the Gore marriage on Bush, something Liz Cheney thinks she read on Daily Kos. All snide insinuations to dismiss, belittle and render non-credible everything else they say.
Well, liberals, let me tell you right now: It's time to put away those Marquess of Queensbury rules. Stop smiling as they lie to your face. But don't get caught in some distraction (the last vestige of a Republican scoundrel: focus on some picayune aspect and steer the conversation away from anything of substance for which they have no defense). Keep hold of your head, your calm and your facts and cut them off at the knees, rhetorically speaking.
There's no reason, for example, why Liz "Spawn of Satan" Cheney should have any credibility to appear on these shows. She is a veteran of an administration widely considered the worst in modern history and of the department that pushed a foreign policy that has failed us, at the cost of thousands of American deaths, tens of thousands of devastating injuries and one trillion dollars of American taxpayer money. Her latest gig is at the head of a think tank formed with another neo-conservative (Bill "I'm always wrong" Kristol) to push a failed foreign policy that has been soundly rejected by the American people and to throw as much crap at our current president to see what sticks. That's it: she is on TV to push for more destruction. Why the hell aren't we impeaching her credibility by pointing out this FACTUAL information?
C'mon, Markos and Arianna, she's done nothing to earn your (or the audience's) respect. She feels no compunction about belittling you on air. Stop being polite. Be honest. And make that torture-apologist, war-mongering shrew and her partisan-motivated propaganda talking points radioactive on these shows.
is a consummate and pathological liar. Arianna knows this (shame on her if she doesn't) and she should have called liz out right there.
The right wants to pretend Bush didn't eff up everything.
No honest citizen (r or d) can make that argument.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
that a real liberal with a brain and an attitude will ever put these pariahs in their place. Really, I'm 49 and have watched these liars distort our country since I started paying attention during rayguns presidency and I'm at the point of hopelessness. I just dont know how much longer I can hope, this seems to be our fate. This country is doomed unless a few liberals grow a set and put these mouth breathing knuckle dragging corporatists in their place.
I hope the next generation can do better
"I hope the next generation can do better"
I think they will. We have not set the bar very high. If they can't do far better they will be in deep doo-doo.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
I understand what you are saying. I think we are doing it wrong. We are letting them and their issues lead the way. Progressives need a vision of a better future. They then need to stick it into every conversation. Drive them off their game. For example now is the perfect time to beat the drum for green sustainable energy. Relentlessly. Spend a little time talking about what happened and most of it on what needs to happen. We shouldn't have wasted any time on the socialism debate but pushed cost and coverage discussion. The backwards do nothing people have dominated the conversation long enough.
I'm the old generation but I'm hanging in here to do what I can to assist the new generation to make it happen.
I'm glad you brought this up Nicole. I went to the site the following day, I gave them 24 hours and nothing, NOTHING on Liz Cheney's lies. What good is this site if they're going to go after the liberals and not touch Liz Cheney. And YES, they went after Schumer and Markos. Even Clinton like five times. Bill Clinton. Yet not a word on Cheney. It's a joke.
is intended to be a factual statement
I seen that POS junk right out the gate when it first showed up in the paper
It actually took me this week to realize what a joke Politifact is. Seriously, fuck them. I'll never go to their site again.
is intended to be a factual statement
"Excuse me Arianna, that's just not the way we see it on Planet Cheney".
'Talk to the hand'
"There's no reason, for example, why Liz "Spawn of Satan" Cheney should have any credibility to appear on these shows."
I don't think credibility is a prerequisite.
As long as the goal is just entertainment the women of the GOP are real knee slappers.
:)
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
there are so many lies, they haven't been able to go through them all.
I'd wager more than we will ever know.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
Spot on Nicole! I couldn't believe that even Tapper seemed unaware or uninterested in smacking down her lies. Maybe that's just one reason he won't be keeping that seat. Perhaps they should change the format during the roundtable by going to commercial and simply using the google to pull up the facts and share them with us when the commercial break is over. Why the hell should we even have to wait for politifact? What the hell is the purpose of the host if he doesn't have the facts written down already can't he take 5 seconds to check?
For some reason, both the media and Politifact are afraid of the Cheney's. Politifact is useless. They won a Pulitzer Prize. For what, sucking?
is intended to be a factual statement
The Cheney's and their ilk scare the pants off of me.
People with that mindset should never be near positions of power let alone hold them.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
Hmmm.... let's think about a reason. I seem to recall that Dick Cheney shot Harry Whittington in the heart point blank with a shotgun while they were birding, covered up the cover-up, and never was held accountable. That's kind of intimidating.
Let me correct you. Whittington was shot in the face not the heart. He was shot in the effing face!!! by a Cheney. If that doesn't scare you....
is intended to be a factual statement
from Wiki: "Whittington was injured in the face, neck, and upper torso".
-I guess we are both right, and Cheney is sooooo wrong. I'm a hunter, you never carry a shotgun at that angle(forward and up) around a friend. Ever.
Then Whittington says, "My family and I are deeply sorry for everything Vice President Cheney and his family have had to deal with. We hope that he will continue to come to Texas and seek the relaxation that he deserves."
Gott Dayum!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunt...
He was shot in multiple places. But it sounds so much more evil on Cheney's part when you say he shot his friend in the face. Anyone can shoot a friend/hunting partner in the chest. It takes a Cheney to do it in the face.
is intended to be a factual statement
n/t
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy
can't think for himself. He's got a script and a program he has to stick to. You can't expect him to chew gum and walk at the same time, can you?
to call politifact tomorrow and ask them if they'd like me to forward the information on Lizzie's bullshit which has been on the Huffington Post and every where else since Sunday?
Give in to temptation, we're not talking about eating a whole pack of bacon by yourself here... Phone it in.
testicular fortitude like the Georgester.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc5iui5rbrs
about PolitiFact is that it shut Ginnys Brown-Waste hole up
Cheney a platform? It's simple, they are in collusion to exonerate her War Criminal father. The elites that rule (politicians, media, corporate execs, Wall St., etc.) want to make sure that none of them are help accountable for their crimes.
And of course Cheney lies, she's her father's evil spawn.
Both were concerned with bashing Obama than actually debating Cheney.
I thought this beyotch was supposed to be a lawyer.
Under tort law we're trained to look for the direct and indirect, proximate and ultimate cause.
It's also direct causation between hostility for regulations over any part of the marketplace, including just for safety, and having classified energy meetings...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Most conservatards think progressives are cowards that back down from a fight. Time to show these bullies that we can kick their fool ass in a NY second if inclined to.I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get in their face and call their shit out right here and now. What the hell is wrong with that?
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
I think they should. What is wrong with that? The producers (and the right wing guests) will be upset that you violated the "collegial" atmosphere.
Serious people on the left aren't allowed to get angry and attack liars on the right. If they did there would be a lot of tut tutting and you might even have to apologize for being so direct. You will of course never be invited back. That is the lesson that the producers have taught people on the left who were successful with attacking the people on the right. To battle this we would need to keep developing new talent who will get kicked off the shows in favor of more mild people. The producers pick, they have their own ideas of what is acceptable.
Look at lizard-brain's body posture.
Maybe she thinks it's forceful but
That's a defensive pose if I ever saw one.
She looks like she's playing defense for the LA Rams.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
is unqualified to be on a legitimate talk show program discussing meaningful politics. She is a nothing but a "Little Dick", defending her "Big Dick's" crimes & the war & oil crimes of the whole Bush crime family. I avoid all TV programs with "Little Dick" on them, but you can't escape because "Little Dick" is scattered all over the internet and the other cable channels keep repeating & rebroadcasting her sick propaganda. When someone is this evil and devious, I guess they make for good ratings. I can't stomach "Little Dick" any more than I could "Big Dick", who apparently is laying low now that the oil scandal has occurred in the gulf. It is "Big Dick's" oil spill as much as it is "Big Dick's" war in Iraq. The Cheneys are bad news, have brought much unnecessary death & destruction for America.
Woody McBreairty
I just can't stand to listen to these right wing assholes. - If you are a right-winger then you must take responsibility (except you never will) for the disaster that is the GOP. They have fucked our country up in every way possible and now want to say Obama isn't moving fast enough or whatever.
If you are a right-winger please know the world would be better off without you.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201006060011
Bing. The site has links to all the findings. Hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud.
Hi Nicolle:
If you remember me you remember my techniques in dealing with the right wing radio hosts. Defund them. Let the decision maker advertisers know that they are tainting their brands.
At one time I too thought that having better liberals on the shows to show up people like Liz Cheney would help. Then I saw a couple of strong liberals on the shows who did a great job. They humiliated the other guests. They were not invited back. Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep trying, but "winning" in a show that is set up to support liars with a host who is "neutral to the truth" is a tough row to hoe.
I've accomplished most of my goals regarding SF right wing radio.
KSFO has lost millions of dollars in revenue. Melanie Morgan was let go because they didn't have enough revenue to support her. Lee Rodgers was fired because they weren't making the money they wanted after advertisers left. (The management of course wouldn't admit ii because they have no compulsion to tell the truth, but the filed financial documents that did break out the data don't lie)
The station lost the Oakland Raiders franchise because they didn't want to spend the money to carry the games. All of these things were possible because they were defunded and there was no sugar daddy to subsidize them.
THAT is one way to fight the right wing pundits. Hate Hurts America used the techniques and cost Savage one million in revenue and was kicked off the air for awhile. Color of Change used the techniques to cost Beck 81 advertisers. I even called up Rupert Murdock to ask him how long he was going to subsidize Beck. Here is the story. He wouldn't even admit to his shareholders that they were subsidizing Beck.
If I was in charge of fighting Liz Cheney I would use slightly different methods, but it could be done. What I've found is that nobody is willing to pay the price to get it done. I personally and professionally paid the price to have an impact on KSFO.
I have come to the conclusion that people on the left who might have the money to get Liz Cheney off the air really don't want her off the air. She fills a need.
I also know how to get Rush off the air, but I won't do it for free. This is one of the great problems. The right is willing to pay for their warriors, the left isn't. They like their fund raising letters from the latest atrocity.
My success speaks for itself and I'm glad that others have learned from what I've done, but I now know that nobody with money is willing to really act to get these people off the air.
Of course I remember you. And I think you do great work, being a Bay Area resident myself, I am familiar with Lee Rodgers/Melanie Morgan's departures. Wish we could do something about that ass Brian Sussman too.
I agree that going after advertisers is a great idea. We've supported the Color of Change campaign against Beck's advertisers.
But I do think that those who go on these shows can't be afraid to call out the credibility of these right wingers. They do it to us constantly, why shouldn't we give them a taste of their medicine?
Thanks! I'm glad you remember me. I'm consciously ignoring Sussman at the moment because he has a book out and it would drive sales. I don't want to increase any revenue.
I do agree we should call them out, there is a desire to be collegial on these shows. If you aren't then you've spoiled the party. I just checked out the clip. Liz with her little joke about "I read it on Kos" Arianne with her, "I can't wait until it is fact checked."
Say for example Arianne didn't want to be so collegial. She could take a couple of routes. Throw down the gauntlet on the lie right then and up the stakes.
"Liz, that is untrue, are you going to stand by that statement?"
Okay, if that statement is proved wrong by an independent group like Politifact you agree to stop coming on the show for 2 months and apologize. If it is true I'll stop coming on and apologize. What do you say?"
She could also be humiliatingly funny like Cliff Schecter (who did that more than once and wasn't invited back). "Truth? Really? Well on my planet when you are on the right and lie you get invited back to the Sunday shows, right Jake?"
This kind of back and forth on these shows has a very narrow acceptable skill set for people on the left. The people on the right often enjoy it, they think it is a fun game. When I fight I fight to win, not to come back next week.
These shows are set up to have a nice chat with people who support war criminals (or are war criminals) but they are treated as if they haven't made morally repugnant comments or authorized morally repugnant acts.
as choreographed as any wrestling match. Pundits gotta eat too. They have good guy personae and bad guy personae and I suspect the only reason Ariana is allowed any latitude is her accent automatically classifies her as a foreigner and her opinion is therefore suspect from the get go.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
= the lizard daughter of Darth Vader.
maggiedancer
http://gornshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/0...
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
as soon as I had the opportunity to talk, my first words would be "Dick Cheney is a liar and a murderer. Prove me wrong."
NOBODY 2012
"CUT! GET HIM OUT OF HERE! Bring in Billy Milktoast. Billy you are on. You know what to do. Don't insult the other guests. We are back on in 3, 2, 1 and action."
Look at that picture!... cheney way to comfortable...and looks like the good life is catching up with her...be hell trying to lose that extra 40 pounds...when she has heart problems and diabetes in just a few years, and loses interest in carrying daddy's torch.....but I digress...
Again...why is this person given air time...?
The word Shrew comes to mind. Maybe because she lives in a previous age.
An age when how much money you had determined how much influence you had, and how much respect you commanded. We all know how that worked out, and that's why we invented America in response. America functions at the pleasure of it's citizens, not it's richest members.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
In an ideal world but in reality the big money owns it. Awareness of that is the first step in changing it.
Nicole says that she is "thrilled that we're seeing high visibility liberals like Arianna Huffington and Markos Moulitsas on This Week on a semi-regular basis. For years, it wouldn't have happened." Is it possible Markos & Arianna realize the same thing, and so they moderate their responses, perhaps too much so?
When I watched this exchange Sunday morning, I felt like Markos was too subdued and couldn't understand why on earth Arianna missed some really ripe points of attack.
but his daughter, Liz? what has she done to 'earn' her place at the table? nothing. she's only there because she is Dick Cheney's daughter, and that's not even a REASON. the press LETS it BE a reason. they legitimize her, even though she's nothing. just look at her in that photo above? there is something so staggeringly disagreeable about that woman it makes me ill. i cant stand her at all. she is the grown up version of the Reese Witherspoon character in 'Election'. she is the proverbial incarnation of the 'mean girl' in high school. i would enjoy seeing Christopher Hitchens or Andrew Sullivan deployed to debate her. i dont think thered be much left of her.
I really think that republicans have become so used to deluding themselves that even if they know one of them is lying they will go along with it. Just another of the reasons I say
republicanism/conservatism is a mental illness!
On Anglicans cutting Episopelians from their Ecumenical Body:
Kearon said he had also written to the primate of the Anglican Church of Canada to ask whether it has formally adopted a policy backing same-sex blessings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2ZeIoLz8FE
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
a fragile thing. If Politifact refuses to acknowledge such an easily checked fact they might as well change their name to Politibullshit right away.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Unless Politico serves at the pleasure of the Cheney clan.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
What happens when the lie, they "walk it back" or they talk about how they 'misspoke' or "when you look at the question in context what she was referring to was X and not Y" and they they go back on the shows.
There are no perjury laws for lying on TV. I've debating asking some right winger a question that I know that he will lie about and say, "Would you say the same thing in a court of law where you could get jailed for perjury?" No? Then why are you saying it here? Because there are no consequences for lying. If the producers of this show kept track of the lies and misstatements as a guideline for who appears on the show they wouldn't be re-invited. It is the "entertainment" factor as well as the "Ohh, she/he's powerful" factor. Or "he/she says those lies in an interesting fashion" factor.
We know how hard Cheney worked to avoid going on oath about ANYTHING, but going on these shows he can use his "I'll shoot you in the face" gravitas to intimidate people.
You know.. i don't think Cheney ever even appologized for that.
If asked he would deny it was a mistake.
Not intentional, but not a mistake either.
He'd have to explain it to you. He was the Vise President -
more powerful and less acountable than a mere President.
You don't ask questions about who the Vice President
shoots in the face because when the Vice President does it,
it is not illegal, or a mistake.
Certainly not during a time of conquest, not during a crusade.
I can only asume the Cheneys proport to be one sort of
religious freaks or the other.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
it's like being up in arms that mcdonald's doesn't offer a veggie burger -- it sh*t food and a sh*t corporation; go somewhere else. likewise for these shows; use for entertainment purposes only.
dems go on these shows to talk about these issues. Republicans go on these shows to score their talking points AND they practice curt, cute, craven liars to respond to the Dem's. Dem's need to go on these shows and be direct. Liz, here you go again with that Psycho talk, ignoring your administration's original permit for the BP well. That permit was the foundation for the disaster.
OR the Dem's need to poke fun at the Republicans. THIS is the reason why John Stewart has so many viewers. Liz, is this the jacket that Haliburton bought you for your consulting work with them? You look like a good corporate stooge.
The key is to either cut them down or poke fun at them. And for heaven's sake, REHEARSE you Lines!!!!
At what point will Obama become accountable for anything that happens in this country? I'd certainly agree that the financial meltdown had roots far before his term. And before Bush's for that matter. Was this well gushing oil when he took office? No. Did Katrina strike while Bush took office? No. Bone up and get some sh*t done. So tired of the Dems and Repubs playing us off on one another. They're all in the tank for these interests.
Who said he wasn't accountable? Certainly not us. Certainly not Markos and Arianna.
The oil drilling rights were granted during the Bush administration. The safety waiver was granted during the Bush administration.
The rig was started during the Obama administration. The leak occurred on his watch and Obama is absolutely guilty of taking BP's word for it on the severity of the leak from the beginning. Hopefully, he's learned that lesson. Obama should be held accountable for how they respond to the catastrophe now, but it's hard not to say that the foundation for this leak didn't begin with the Bush administration.
Did Katrina strike while Bush took office? During the inauguration, no. But Bush DID get 4 days advanced notice before Katrina made landfall.
But none of this is the point of this post.
It takes me about 60 seconds to have conservatives grasping for a thought - while people laugh at them. It's not really that hard to do for anyone with a little wit and the truth on their side.
Fact is, most democrats today are DINO's, or they are absolutely gutless jellyfish. After eight years of Bush/Cheney, how could you possibly be on the defensive against republican talking points? HOW? Somebody explain that to me. These so-called lefties are pathetic!
When the GOPer's spew their bulls**t around me, I offer them to lay some money down. They always shut up at that point. Especially when I mention that if you get your information from Fox or Clear-channel, you might wanna do a little research on your own before laying down your cash.
Have yet to have one talking point spewing conservative take me up on a bet. Not one.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
What a nighhtmare , June and Ward Cheney made sure they completely brainwashed and programmed this gem , more of a robot than a human being . David Sorota suggested a good question to put to this freak ,ask her if Dick Cheney has ever done ANYTHING wrong ? Her head would probably start spinning and then explode .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
how come lefties can't bring an IPAD on the set, then off-set someone can send the leftie the fact checks? This fascism is getting so frustrating!!!
I wish I had the skills to build a mobile transmitter that could intercept the fascist programs and send out some truths!
Liz is just like momma Lynn. Shrill, loud, talking over people who are speaking. If she wants to pin this on Obama because as she put it, "Its was on his watch", then what happened during Bush/Cheneys' watch? 9-11, financial system collapse, mistaken war on Iraq, Louisiana drowns while Brownie does a heckuva a job and on and on and on. So, Okay Liz, we'll take this one if you and George F-ing Will will take responsibility for all of your daddys and W's f ups even though everybody knows your dad allowed you name the industry to do whatever the hell they wanted.
That's what we do: we present facts and hope that the other side will observe the rules of debate.
Exactly, and that's why you lose. People don't make decisions rationally. They make them emotionally. And as long as you try to CONVINCE people of the FACTS, you will fail.
People don't buy SUVs (even still) because they are safer or convenient. They buy them because they are DOMINATION devices.
Read Bernays. Rapaille. Lyotard. etc.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
The Right-wing knows this. They use EMOTION and FEAR to compel their base and get the independent vote.
The left uses the "holier than thou" approach, citing facts that most viewers don't understand, further feeding into the "elitist" image.
Most people are sheep and must be treated that way. It's ok to have a sophisticated arguement that you save for Council on Foreign Relations dinners, but you better be able to streamline and simplify that message for the wider audience you'll find on Sunday mornings.
It's also ok to corral these sheep where you want them. It's not immoral or dishonest. It's necessary to help them. Be prepared to be ruthless, aggresive, and assertive so harpies like Cheney are left speechless. It can be done, if you're willing to fight.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
...for Arianna, or somebody, to interrupt the back and forth with an 'Excuse me for a minute here Liz...but has anybody ever told you that you have that same, condescending, arrogant, smart-assed, smirk that your father has? Well you do, and it doesn't look anymore attractive on you than it does him, and you very well know how much we adore his vile ass'...Now that's what I'd like to hear.
Arianna and Markos clearly understand the truth of the matter. Liz Cheney is a spokesperson for her father, nothing more and nothing less.
As such, Arianna and Markos should have treated her, not as a fellow roundtable member, but as a hostile witness. Ms. Cheney works within specific talking points. Don't enter into discussion with her on those terms - it won't work (even if she is lying like a rug). Put her on the defensive and keep her there. As General Patton said "grab the enemy by the nose, and kick him in the ass!"
I hope when CA begins This Week in August, the old format and George are gone as well. If the internet can be invented, we can invent objective TV. Not sneaky right objective TV, but real objective and factual TV. These days pundit point of view means liar.....
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