California's Proposition 8 Still Holds Slight Lead In Polls
By Nicole Belle Saturday Oct 18, 2008 9:30amThe recently married Ellen DeGeneres paid out of her own pocket to make an ad urging Californians to vote No on Proposition 8. And with good reason. Thanks to the deep out-of-state purses of the Mormon church, focusing exclusively on fear-mongering over children and schools (not marriage itself), encouraging members to volunteer time and money, they have been able to spread their message far and wide.
You can help. You can volunteer on for No on 8 Campaign. There are a few supporters who have offered to match dollar-for-dollar donations this weekend, so if you afford to do so, please donate money. Kossacks are on the case as well.
Lane Hudson has written an Open Letter to Dianne Feinstein, the former SF Mayor and current California Senator to remember her roots in supporting the gay community and forcefully voice her opposition to Proposition 8.
Your statement opposing Prop 8 is insufficient and borders on disrespect to our community. You announced the murder of Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone to the world from the steps of San Francisco City Hall. You have not only seen first-hand the horror that results from discrimination, but have had to deal with its aftermath.
That you have not joined with the campaign to actively and vocally oppose this awful assault on civil equality is shameful. At a time when a film about Harvey Milk is about to be released to the widest audience ever and is generating a significant amount of Oscar buzz, I hope you will find it within your soul to actively join the fight to defeat Prop 8.
Your political career was catapulted by the death of one of our icons and heroes. It's time you honored Harvey Milk and your own place in history by giving voice to what he would say about Prop 8 if he were not savagely taken from us that fateful day in 1978. Paraphrasing your own words, we can't just hope Prop 8 won't pass....we need 'all hands on deck' to defeat it, including you.
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Yet another reason why I'm glad I don't live in Utah any more! The IRS needs to start taxing these assholes! Good for Ellen!
It is about time we start a movement to revoke tax exempt status from religious institutions that lobby for the revoking peoples civil rights. Minimally, it I church starts promoting a political issue, it is not agreeing to a separation of church and state - so it should not get the benefits of said separation.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
No church should have Tax exempt status that breaks the rule.
Tha troof =
http://www.filthyrichmond.com
Ahh yes, another attempt by the LDS church to spread their hate and ignorance across the land.
The same way that they did when they were instrumental in bringing the Equal Rights(for women)Amendment down.
As far as I know, the LDS Church is the only religion that "prophesizes" the downfall of the USA government "when the Constitution is Hanging by a Thread."
Then the LDS Church will take over with a Mormon Theocracy.
They have become very excited and bold now that the Constitution is, indeed, "hanging by a thread."
I would suggest that people unfamiliar with the LDS cult should read "One Nation Under Gods" by Richard Abanes.
The Mormon Church should NOT be taxed.
The Mormon "Church" should be made illegal and its assets forfeited toward the benefit of the people that this disgusting cult has victimized.
Men have a tendency to become very arrogant and abusive when they believe that they will become gods after they die.
...are its exquisite fossils.
Unfortunately, look at the kind of people who happened to settle above said fossils.
Make it impossible for 'em to dabble in the political lives of the secular people of this country.
Churches" aren't 'citizens.'
They're fucking parasites.
Tax 'em til they hemorrhage...
Churches are tax exempt because they're seen as charitable. Should we then tax all charities?
There is a history of taxing churches for non-charitable money. I understand most ministers pay some kind of income tax. If they make money off of secondary or tertiary holdings, they pay tax on them as well. Jimmy Swaggert actually took it all the way to the Supreme Court, and the court said that selling statuettes of Jimmy, or books by Jimmy aren't the same as selling Bibles, and tracts explaining his particular church's religious views. It was the church and it's teachings that were tax free, not everything Jimmy did.
I object to LDS funding opposition to a proposition, particularly because so many are from out of state; they pay no state income tax. Additionally, I could see some of them locally opposing it verbally, but instead of being called traditionalists they'd be called bigots engaging in hate speech, with the adjacent argumentums ad geneseon.
I dunno why, but since I was a pup, I always thought this was the most religious song I ever heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFEnoITiWE
Praise Bob!!!
Yet another reason I'm glad I don't live in California anymore. I hope Bush makes them pay their own way. No bail out for Arnie.
Sing it, sisters! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO0eR47WuLY
We are totally glad your stink doesn't smell up this wonderful state.
California is glad you don't live anymore too.
TobyWanKenobi (not verified):
Despite continued interference from religious bigots (often not from here), California's protections for LGBTIQ people are light years ahead of other states'.
What is it with these conservative Bible-thumpers and home-grown religious zealots that makes them so occupied with other peoples' bedrooms?
And of course they play the "protect the children" card any chance they get, because who would ever vote for anything that endangered children?
We all have to stop listening to these people. Hell, they would advocate public disembowelments in the name of "protecting the children" if they thought it would get them votes.
Let's end this.
Vote. Progressive. Now.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Nice reply Pee-wee
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Just imitating the typical conservative whiny crybaby.
Example please...
(Crickets chirp)
Get off daddy's computer junior.
They have to provide distractions from the fact that religious households are not nearly as happy as atheist households and there's a higher percentage of religious folk in prison. All gays must be atheist since the Bible says God frowns on homosexuals. If it's sinful, then no real Christian would do it.
The Mormon "church" has a law of "Just Retribution" that includes ritual disembowelment and throat-slitting in the case of "gentiles" who refuse to convert.
They haven't been able to continue this practice for some reason.
Read "One Nation under Gods" by Richard Abanes.
What you're describing is the rumored behavior of the Masons, to members who cheat them out.
I'm an excommunicated Mormon (I requested it), and the only time I find blood on my neck it's a shaving accident or popping a zit.
Joseph Smith, founding nutjob of the LDS borrowed heavily from the Masons regarding various rites, hand signals etc.
The ritual of "Just Retribution" faded from the larger practice at the end of the 19th century.
The most famous massacre of "gentiles" occurred at a place called Mountain Meadows.
They blamed it on the Indians.
Being a former Mormon there was no ritual of Just Retribution, although there were others thought odd by others. The rite described sounds like the writer purposefully confused Aztec rites with Mormon rites, presuably because Mormons claim Amerindians were among the Lost Tribes of Israel.
The Massacre of Mountain Meadows although inexcusable were by people who were being terrorized wherever they went. That's why they allowed both androgamy as well as bigamy initially. So when one Mormon man was gone either on a mission field or murdered, Mormon women wouldn't have to suffer without a husband, which even in society at large, widows were vulnerable to penury.
They saw their own church founder murdered in prison by "Christian" gangs, despite the fact that he was running for president of the United States at the time.
Additionally, Masons did not deserve their bad reputation. They drew their rites heavily from Egyptology to give it an air of mysticism, so what their rites said and what they actually did were two different matters. What scared society at large was the Masons, and the Freemasons, were interested in spreading liberal causes, like bills of rights, declarations of independences, the limited powers of monarchs as well as ius naturale etc. George Washington was the head of his own Freemason chapter.
Here is the big secret that Mormons don't want you to know:
Utah has a higher than average spousal abuse rate.
Utah has a higher than average divorce rate.
Utah has one of the highest suicide rates in the nation.
In 1997, it ranked 12th on child abuse. Idaho, another heavily mormon state, was number one.
These are the mormon family values.
Vote no on 8.
...is that since they were raised to repress their sexual tendencies, the only outlet they get is by thinking about/scapegoating the sexual activities of people different from them.
I love Ellen and I am going to fight for prop 8 because I don't want her married to that vamp she's hitched to. She needs to be married to me!
Just kidding of course. Her wife (omg?) is awesome too. And I'm straight.
Fight discrimination!
The only fear mongering and hatred I see here is among the comments about those who disagree with gay marriage.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Unless it's because you need an excuse for your filled-up diapers? Go whine and troll elsewhere, it's tiresome.
For idiocy... There's a big difference between dissension and moronic statements such as yours!
Yes, friends, this could be "that" toby...from Austin, TX. The one who brags about pouring gasoline on barking dogs...
Heckuvafella...
Nice comeback, Pots.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
You're making moronic statements?
Although wordiness is not necessarily the mark of erudition, terseness is often just bumperstickerease.
Reasonable people can surely disagree without name calling. In California, Obama has a huge lead and the gay marriage ban Prop. 8 is leading as well. Obviously, many people have taken to Senator Obama's position opposing gay marriage.
Just because someone opposes gay marriage does not make them evil, small, bigoted or hateful. People should be able to have heartfelt disagreements without it devolving into name calling and finger pointing. That is counter productive to one's cause.
My wife and I disagree on this topic. I would not sign a petition for this Prop. and she could not understand why. I told her I did not support it. I told her that legally gays should have the right to be married but that right should be a civil right and is not based on a religious belief but on a legal principle. She failed to understand the distinction.
I do not believe in gay marriage. I think it is wrong. That is my choice. BUT I do not believe it is my right to deny that choice to others who may disagree. This is not an easy issue nor is it one where people cannot respectfully disagree. To hold a "if you're not for us you're against us" attitude is just as small minded and bigoted as those who oppose your viewpoint. It is something I equate more with conservative thought than liberal.
We'll see how it goes on Election Day. I am torn on how to vote on this issue. Religiously, I am for it. On a civil and legal issue, I am against it. I could go either way. However, due to the arrogance and condescension I have witnessed from the opponents of this Measure, I am tempted to vote for it out of spite. And I'm sure I am not alone.
If the shoe were on the other foot, and there was a proposed amendment to the state's Constitution that could endanger your marriage, would you want people to vote to allow you to be able to stay married to the woman you love? Or would you be upset that they were considering voting against it because they were upset because of the actions of some people on your side?
Do you want to vote in favor of an amendment to California's constitution that legalizes hatred?
I'd ordinarily say to myself I don't have a dog in this fight.
But because the Mormon Church has become the real issue in the fight, I consider I do have a dog in it.
Fuck any church that, as a church, throws financial or other support behind a ballot matter.
I agree: take away the Mormon Church's 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status.
They all suck (not verified):
As a human being, you have a dog in every fight for civil liberties and equality!
They are all inextricably linked. As that famous quote goes, first they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did not stand up . . . . . . .
These morons can't seem to help themselves. The more they open their traps, the more they indict both themselves and John McCain.
John McCain's chief female mouthpiece, Nancy Pfeutenauer was just on MSNBC discussing their problems in Virginia. In it she says "the people moving into Virginia are coming from DC but the "real Virginians" blah, blah, blah.
The "real Virginians" as opposed to what? The "fake Virginians"....this smacks of the Pro-american (meaning pro McCain) cities and states throughout this country of Sarah Palin on the stump yesterday.
These frauds will be lucky to get out of this campaign with their self-respect left intact at this point; americans are losing respect by the hundreds each time one of these fascist dividers opens their mouths.
Nancy Pfautenauer is just like Michele Bachman at this point who is a Palin "stepford". These women have become american bigots.
When McCain's top aide says to Virginians living in North Virginia that they aren't THE REAL VIRGINIA, I think they're looking for a trouncing on November 4.
Then she added insult to injury and said that "SOUTHERN VIRGINIA IS LIKE THE DEEP SOUTH"....as in what? as in bigoted? as in racist?
McCain will rue today and Nancy's own words will become viral around this country this weekend as well as today.
I hope C & L locates this MSNBC tape immediately so we can circulate it and show everyone just how hateful McCain's own people have become.
An old TV Western called The True Virginian?
)O(
Of Joseph McCarthy and Pat Buchanan's Deuchland Uber Alles speech.
)O(
"The recently married Ellen DeGeneres paid out of her own pocket to make an ad"
I know Ellen, I've worked with her, her current show is shot right next door
to me, and I like her, a lot. I also think Prop 8 is idiotic.
But - having watched the ad, this is the kind of thing that doesn't (or sure
as hell shouldn't) cost even ten extra cents to make.
So, 10 cents is a lotta dough nowadays...bhahahahhhaa
Anonymous (not verified):
Making the ad doesn't cost much. The advertising time on television costs millions. It can be hundreds of thousands per minute.
What would be the next step after gaining the rigiht to gay marriage, the right to gay divorce?
It'll bring a ho new meaning to the gay divorcee.
As a Reminder to all who troll this Blog we would like to thank you in advance. Why?
The standing rule agreed upon by many of the commentators here is as follows.
Every time Trolls come in here and do their thing we donate another $5. to the Obama Campaign.
Thank you for helping.
Thanks for reminding me, BB. I'm just gonna have to tally them up through the week and pay at the weekend.
This woman will be thrown under the bus by next week. She's said the unthinkable now.
She referred to the citizens of Northern Virginia as not being "real Virginians" and that they'd moved in from DC. Does this mean that each of our ancestors who immigrated to this country and took up residence there were not "real virginians" "real Pennsylvanians" "real New Yorkers" or "real Floridians" according to the World According to Fascist Nancy??
I can't believe that McCain has surrounded himself with such a gaggle of fascist morons who are doing their very best to tank this campaign for him. Evidently, the concept of "vetting" to John McCain has something to do with getting his dog it's shots? Surely, he's clueless about whom he surrounds himself with.
This will be the ABSOLUTE END OF JOHN MC CAIN'S CAMPAIGN. This latest racist, bigoted attempt to label Northern Virginia citizens as "unpatriotic" is going to backfire in their faces badly leading right up to this election.
The damage done by Nancy Pfautenauer just moments ago coupled with the incredible damage done by the words of Republican Michele Bachman last evening will destroy the McCain campaign from within.
Please stop making excuses for McCain as if somehow he was a victim of his circumstances.
He has always been the same douche bag, now that the national spot is firmly planted on him... the facts are unavoidable. It is not the idiots who surround him who have somehow kidnapped his integrity, he never had any to begin with.
Fascism a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
[Deleted. Flamebaiting with ignorance-Sitemonitor]
You forgot the key part. The centralization of authority might be under a dictator, but the stringent socioeconomic controls are the economic elites, in otherwords the vested business interests. That more describes the republicans, including mccain, than Obama.
Y'all seem to confuse your insults between facists and communist, and belie your lack of education on societal structures.
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
You really are STILL a stoopit little dweeb, ainch, Tobes?
Mussolini said Fascism was the union of the corporation's economic power with the mortal authority of the State.
Mussolini INVENTED 'fascism', Tobers...Him and the Pope (Benedict XV) were the 'holy fathers' of the dominant political motif of the 20th (and so far, the 21st) Century...
Every USer politician has imbibed from the flowing font that is Fascism.
Fascism was one of the many political/philosophical currents that sprung from the nationalist movements in the Europe of the XIX century.
Here is an interesting tidbit: You know the saying that everyone was keen on reciting after 9/11? The one which goes "together we stand, divided we fall"? that is actually the motto of the fascio, which was the symbol of the fascists regimes in Italy and Spain. A set of sticks bound together with an axe. It was an old Roman weapon, basically the symbolism was that a single stick was not much of a weapon by itself. The combined sticks with the blade were a weapon to be reckoned with....
I wish I DID still live in California. There's no better state in the Union. As for LDS, it seems just a slightly less litigious version of CoS. Same keep-em-separated, keep-em-ignorant tactics.
As for centralization of authority that has happened already under the republicans and booshco. The executive government has usurped much of the power of the legislative, and has become an imperial government answerable to no one.
Under socioeconomcial they continue to give tax shelter, tax breaks and tax incentives courtesy of the taxpayers specificially to the type 5%, and after getting this largesse what do they do, they down-size, out-source, and even relocate their headquarters overseas but they're still allowed to do business here.
Censorship has gone nuts under booshco, the wardrobe malfunction, any discussion before the occupation was why do you hate America, why do you blame America first? After the occupation, why do you hate the troops?
Belligerent nationalism and racism was also emblematic of booshco. He didn't know the difference between Shia and Sunni. Seemed unaware of a Christian portion of the Iraq population. We should've been in Afghanistan looking for Ben Laden, but we were sidetracked into Iraq, even though they did not attack us. Meanwhile Arab-Americans of all sorts are being rounded up in America, Canada and other places on little more than vague suspicion and sent to foreign prisons we controlled, or our foreign friends, so we could torture information out of them.
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
Don't bother donating money to fight prop 8.
Donate money to get congressmen, senators and a PRESIDENT elected THAT WILL BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!
A ban on gay marriage might not be a good thing but it can be undone.
Dead troops in Iraq can't ever be brought back to life and every time you donate to a cause other than bringing them home you are saying their living or dying doesn't matter.
for instructing me on what to do with My money. Now,I'm sure You'd agree I can instruct you to do with Yours,eh?
[Deleted. Flamebaiting. Site Monitor]
project much,do you? My taking exception to your statement logically makes me a war monger? Wow. Just wow.
Which is more important saving thousands of lives or allowing gay marriage?
How can you place a weight of importance on this? *sigh* Since the soldiers are supposedly fighting for the freedoms not only of americans, but for everyone around the world, I would say that the gay marriage ban is highly discriminatory against even the most basic of human rights (as provided under the United Nations). Does anyone remember prop 187 in 1994 or something? I believe that one got overruled as unconstitutional by the California Supreme Court. I would hope that should this evil proposition pass, that it will quickly find itself in the hands of the courts and overruled as unconstitutional.
Here in Norway, they passed some awesome laws this year. First, they made it legal for gay couples to marry (not just a "civil union"). Second, they made it legal for them to adopt children.
I am not 100% on the details, but I remember that certain christian and muslim groups here put up strong opposition to both of these issues. First they tried the whole "marriage is sacred" line, but I don't think many listened, or cared. On the second issue they tried to say that gay couples could not adopt children because they would indocrinate the children with their belief systems! These people actually said this or something to that effect. Without providing any evidence or studies to back up their claim. Fortunately, there aren't too many religious people here in this country of almost 5 million, but those who are, are quite vocal, but few people really pay attention to their cries for more religious sensitivity. At least when it comes to human rights.
Granted Norway is still behind Sweden when it comes to Gay family rights, but not too far behind! It was a little difficult to find information in English, but here you go.
Gay Marriage Law Passed By Wide Margin
Same Sex Marriage and Adoption
Sorry for such a long post! I *will* be sending in my absentee vote for Obama! Good luck America!
I've lost count of the times it's been made clear by other countries that they don't enjoy it when arrogant Americans tell them how to run their nation.
Seems you're guilty of the very sin that you claim is ours and ours alone.
I was not telling anyone how to run their nation. I was suggesting that if the United States wanted to still be considered the "best" nation in the world they should have laws that reflect and honour human equality. I am not telling anyone how to behave, I was just merely pointing out that if laws can be created,allowing people to be who they are, that it can and should be done. Whether or not the US does or does not has no effect on me personally, except for maybe shame that you could not do better. If the US actually set the example, I am sure many other nations would follow in the uptake of these basic human rights.
Believe me, I think the whole thing about church marriage is silly. This should not have anything to do with how the state views marriage. The state should recognize that a marriage is a legally binding contract between two people and only that. Any other sort of ceremony is left to them, but it should not be something the state can enforce. Of course, I am being ideological now. Probably just wishful thinking. At least here in Norway marriage is set up like this. Do as you think is best.
"I was not telling anyone how to run their nation."
Yeah right we claim the same thing and no one ever believes us,
I think I know the reason mcgramp's trolls are here, is to try to take the thread off topic which is gay marriage in California.
We all know conservatives want gay sex to remain cheap and promiscuous so they can get more of it in airport bathrooms.
Watch this heart-warming message of support from the family of someone directly affected by Prop 8: http://brainrageblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/don...
Wow, I have not seen this many trolls on one thread in C&Ls for a long time. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one!
First off, just want to say, you guys rock! I'm a Canadian and a total political junkie and love Crooks & Liars, I am on it every day.
SO what the hell is going on in California? Why are you not marching in the streets to quash Proposition 8? We have had equal marriage up here for a few years now and our True North, Strong and Free has not fallen into an abyss of godless evil. Even the most ardent neo-conjobs have given in to reality and same-sex marriage, (not civil unions, thank you very much) is a dead issue now.
America is a great nation, lurching back into the light after 8 years of vile Republican mismanagement. I can't even say that the White House represents true Republicans, but the light at the end of the tunnel is in sight... hopefully it is not an oncoming train. One sign of this was the California Supreme Court recognizing reality, that equal but different when it comes to marriage is not equal, nor right.
I and many Canadians are hoping that Prop 8 will fail, but the fact that it is so close is disenchanting.
Canada's enshrining of equal marriage does not contain one word to compel religions to perform same-sex marriages if they do not support them. Nor do we have some bizarre "gay marriage class" being taught in schools. I am constantly amazed at the lengths the fear-mongering over this has become down there.
So what if the guys next door to you who own the local bed & breakfast get married? If this devalues your heterosexual marriage, what kind of relationship do you have with your spouse? If you believe the right to marry someone who is also the same sex, is against the word of a god, until you can produce she/they/it/him and proclaim such opposition in big fiery condemnation, stop speaking on behalf of an idea that most the rest of the world does not believe in.
What arrogance! What outrageous self-righteousness! Who are these self-appointed fools?
Besides, who wants to believe in a deity that is so small, petty and scared of human sexuality? God should not be seen as a control freak.
Same-sex marriage is a step in the evolution of a just society, where men and women of good-will and a mature mind can build a culture that expands the acceptance of love of an equal and fair nature, not restricts it.
California, fight hard! Yell, rant, rave! Proposition 8 is an evil, fear-filled idea designed to poison the well of discourse on the evolution of a better society for all.
My love, support and hope is with you all.
Plus, would injecting a little humour into these debates kill you guys? Laughing at your enemies is the best way to dis-arm them.
My husband and I were married in Toronto four years ago. Although our nuptials are not legally recognized in our home state of Ohio, were glad to have the opportunity to wed. We consider our Canadian marriage a legal legitimazation of our union.
Ellen:"Hi,I'm Ellen...please vote no on prop 8 so I can keep on legally munching carpet,thank you."(picks at teeth absentmindedly).
She didn't say it,but I bet she was thinking something close-that crazy funny girl.
When will we just leave people the fuck alone in regard to who they want to love and be with?Seriously.The morons-I mean mormons have tons of other more pressing issues they could weigh in on for the good of mankind.
And hell yeah-tax the piss out of them.
I hope that Prop 8 gets denied and people will learn to just ignore things that have nothing to do with them.
I'm not Gay, but I at least acknowledge that other people have the right to do and live and love however they want. Just because it doesn't jibe with what I believe and do, doesn't mean they don't have a right to their own lives.
I'm not in California, I'm in Ohio (soon to be back in Washington State), but I wholeheartedly support those in opposition to Prop 8.
http://searchingforchetbaker.blogspot.com/
Posted ellen's video on there. Hopefully some Cali folks who read my blog will see it and maybe vote no.
G
I voted early and I voted no on my ballot. I spoke to everyone I know that votes early or is waiting for election day to vote NO on 8. I am an African American and I know how I was treated during the years before the Civil Rights Bill was passed. My values were developed by John Fitzgeral Kennedy. My parents had a different view as they had lived and some what accepted how Blacks were treated. As a teenager I was blessed to listen to the words JFK spoke as he made me responsible for my country. " Ask not what your country can do for you Ask what you can do for your country ". I told my parents this is just as much my country as anyone other American and I have a responsiblity to it. Racism and hate has no place in the USA and I know what it's like to be left out and decriminated against and I will never let that happen to anyone else while I'm alive.
Malcom X would have some choice words for you.
Please remind me we ARE in the 21st century?? I can't believe this Country is STILL arguing over issues as gay marriage, abortion..These two issues and many more are topics that the government and churches should have no say in! NONE WHAT SO EVER!
I don't need a government to protect myself from myself..I need to protect myself from our goverenment! The constitution wasn't written by men who were religious and worried abut moral issues. They were actually worried about a future government like the one we have right now!
I am constantly reminded by straight people that the whole issues of MARRIAGE would be ruined if gay people were able to do the same thing?? I think heterosexual people have already ruined it by how many divorces that are occurring on a daily basis..and they are worried about what gay people will do to it..Geees.
Also, the whole abortion thing too should always be up to the woman. It is her body no body else would take that right away from her. Besides, the biggest problem concerning abortion is that there are so many unwanted children being born for all the wrong reasons and adoption for these children doesn't always guarantee them a happy/healthy functional family life.
So..in conclusion to my ranting here is that NO ONE has the right to tell you what to do with your body, either male or female and we should ALL have equal rights. Isn't this is what America is all about??? At least I thought it was...if McCain/Palin gets in the office which they won’t unless of course they will try and cheat, it will cause a revolution I hope! Damn, we surely need one we are surely over due.
Thanks. :)
Sorry Eellen, but I am totally AGAINST gay marriage!
Then perhaps you should plan a more somber celebration for your nuptials!!???? #:)
While the support of the LDS for Prop 8 seems particularly onerous considering they are primarily from out of state, let's not forget the millions being pumped into the Prop 8 campaign by Focus on the Family and the Catholic church (your Sunday collections at work once again, Catholics--at least its not going for bailing out pedo-priests this time). Bottom line--don't just pick on the Mormons.
You wouldn't bat an eye if the anti-prop 8 money was coming from Mass.
This is a proposition without a leg to stand on, and the proponents just focus on fear-mongering. Oh no! Marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Churches will be attacked! The end days are coming!
The truth is, prop 8 does only harm and no good. No one gains anything if prop 8 passes, and all the same-sex couples and gay individuals (present and future) in California lose the right to marry. It's terrible to me that so few people see that this is not an issue with two viable sides. People need to be educated that prop 8 is discrimination, pure and simple. It's people imposing their own religious doctrine on others, and that's un-American.
I don't know why the money from the moron's, I mean mormon's, should make a difference - if one wasn't predisposed to being an intolerant, hate-filled, idiot bigot to begin with.
And I'm a "REAL" American (live in a small town in rural U.S.A.), so I speak truth to power!
Before I begin let me say that I HATE Ellen. I think she's the least interesting of any talk show host in existence. I've never thought she was funny in the slightest. She is ugly. I remember once laughing at an ad for one TV show where David Spade said, "Is this because I look like Ellen?" It was so true. They're both ugly and horribly boring.
As much as I hate her, I have to admit that she's right on this point. If gays and lesbians can't get married, they're still going to be gays and lesbians anyway. They're still going to be living together and sleeping together and holding hands in public whether we want them to or not. At the very least, we can benefit by taking some of their money. And they're going to pay for weddings and wedding gifts and the taxes on them. Why do you think Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Republicans' Republican, is against proposition 8? How much money will the weddings generate for California? I wouldn't mind paying less in sales tax, would you?
Further, I honestly couldn't care less who marries whom (unless Michael Jackson is somehow involved; that guy belongs in jail). Let lions lay with lambs and dogs with cats and gays with lesbians or gays with gays and lesbians with lesbians. Whatever. It doesn't matter to me.
stunt and is also political FRAUD to deny rights to gays that are already given to heterosexual couples!
THIS IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE.
Everyone I speak to is voting NO ON 8, and you should too.
The christo-righties also are against Divorce, but that is legal also throughout the land. Tell me, how is this different and how is it going to affect YOUR MARRIAGE or YOUR RELIGION?
not at all, thats how....now STFU neocons, Obama is going to be your prez too. Better get used to it, or it's going to be a very LONG eight years!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/18/...
This being my first visit to this site I am a bit surprised to read many of these comments and the amount of hostility, anger, intolerance, self serving and hateful feelings that have been expressed.
It's often hard to see both sides of a debate and completely understand the arguments that are being made and the full impact the situation will have on society. But this is a big one and I could go without commenting on what I've read.
What has happened here is a minority was allowed to overturn the vote of the majority. California has already voted on and passed this proposition once. Then four individuals who were supposed to uphold the law decided to make law which is not the role of supreme court justices and in my opinion at least, is unconstitutional.
Not only the Mormon church supports Prop 8, if you read this list (http://www.protectmarriage.com/endorsements/org) you may find the church or an organization you attend or maybe a friend or family member attends. What they all have in common is an understanding of what is really at stake here and that is exactly what "liberals" say they want so much, true separation of church and state and tolerance! As soon as you start taxing churches, that separation is gone! Hundreds of churches will be forced to close because many of them are barely making ends meet on the donations they receive.
Besides, all that money from the Mormon church has been taxed, because it didn't come from the church, it came from its members like me who go to work everyday, pay state and federal taxes and have every right to donate to any cause they feel the need to, because that IS the American thing to do. To stand by and let happen what may is lazy and cowardly, if you believe in something stand up for it! Yes, even if that means no on 8. That's your god given right, agency, freedom to choose for yourself. Just remember, you can pick your actions but you can't pick the consequences and every decision has consequences good or bad.
I am still in disbelief how two faced so many of these posts are. These are the same people who protest for peace and love, live and let live, love the sinner not the sin and accept everyone for who they are.
A few things that bother me:
1.The same people who tell me I can't pray in school fight for death row murderers, rapists, thieves, drug dealers etc. to have the right to cable television, air conditioning, college education, and basically all the rights that law abiding citizens have, all completely paid for with our tax money. Whether you believe it or not, by not allowing me to pray in school IS forcing your beliefs on me, exactly what you said you didn't want me to do to you.
2. We're not trying to take away any rights from anyone that they should have. For the level of education that most of the posters here appear to have it seams to me that more of you should be familiar with the laws of nature, without reproduction a species will become extinct, how can you seriously say that homosexual marriage is natural and a good idea?!
3.People have forgotten why this country exists and the foundation it was built on. RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!!! People came here so that they could worship God however they saw fit. Now, whether you believe in God or not you have to admit that this nation became the greatest nation in the world in the shortest amount of time by holding strong to these values and that society as a whole would be better off if everyone was a better member of their faith. The values taught in most religions promote self reliance, good citizenship, honesty, kindness, integrity and morality; all are necessary for a society to function properly. You know, it has always amazed me that so many people want to move to the U.S. but as soon as they arrive they want to change it to be just like the place they came from. Heritage is good and we need to remember where we come from but not forget why we're here, hopefully it's a better place than where we started out.
4. Get your facts right or at least try before you rant about something you know nothing about.
A Yes vote on Prop 8 will not change much, historically that is, gay marriage has only been "legal" for a few months now and would be a blip on the radar. However, a No vote on Prop 8 will change everything, why everything? Because it will shake the very foundation of our nation, The Family. Social experts have studied over and over again the impact that families have on our society and ALL those studies proved that when children are raised in a stable home by their Father and Mother they have a better chance of succeeding in school, their career and in raising their own family. If Prop 8 doesn't pass you will see more changes than if it does, you can count on that. Remember the consequences, I hope we don't have to find out what they all are.
If you're still reading this, thanks, please give it some serious thought and study and if you pray, pray about it before you make a decision on misinformation.
It's not misinformation, it's that OUT OF STATE Mormons are leading the charge against a state proposition.
That would seem to be against the 10th amendment.
Funny how little complaining we heard from "strict constructionists" when the Supreme Court gave the election of 2000 to boosh.
It was Mormons and other religious minorities that fought state mandated prayer in public schools. (although it is admittedly off-topic.) The Madelyn Murray O'Hare case was the exception.
)O(
Thank you for pointing this out, because this is exactly the point I was trying to make, I don't remember this case directly, maybe I was too young at the time but but it is a prime example of what I was trying to say. The Mormon church does not support any State mandated religious program, that is what drove pilgrims from Europe to begin with.
Excellent point!
Was the Supreme Court acting as strict constuctionists or living document when they decided against the Mormons in McReynolds v the United States?
It is comparable not only the Californian proposition, but also current events, particularly in Texas, as well.
)O(
Christians arguing in Biblical terms against gay marriage would be hilarious if it weren't so disgustingly hypocritical. One man and one woman, my fat white dimpled @$$. How 'bout all the polygamy? How about adultery with your wife's handmaids? How about the "righteous" Lot's incest with his daughters? Onan's dad ordering him to sleep with his late brother's wife out of wedlock? What about all the incest that had to go on between Adam and Eve's children if you can't buy into the whole evolution idea?
Josh: I normally don't resort to profanity online, but your Bible has some of the most fucked-up sexual ever. And you claim the right to tell other people how to live their private lives? Bite me. I'm hetero and have been happily married for thirteen years, and the fact that other people can't enjoy the same right as I have to marry the love of their lives is repugnant to me on every level. You and your "defense of marriage" ilk don't speak for me or my marriage.
And another thing that makes you and your like so disgusting is how you've convinced yourself that your First Amendment rights are being violated when law-abiding tax paying citizens WHO ARE NOT AFFECTING YOU IN THE LEAST exercise their basic human rights. If setting up a family isn't a right, I don't know what is. So don't you DARE whine about "hostility, anger, intolerance, self serving and hateful feelings." You, pal, are living that hostility by shoving your cookie-cutter definitions of family down other people's throats by appealing to the worst in yourself and others. No one is forcing you to marry someone of the same sex, so lay off the persecution bull$#!+.
Oh, and it isn't just the Mormans who are bankrolling this discrimination. DailyKos reports that Harold Ahmanson--the money behind the Discovery Institute--has chipped in close to a million. So that puts you, Josh, not only on the side of a religion noted for polygamy and child rapists, but with same folks who want to establish a full blown theocracy in America. Ahmanson is actually a moderate in his circle because he's mellowed enough to believe that stoning people like they did in the Bible isn't actually necessary. Like I said, the Bible has some pretty harsh values along with the effed-up one about sex. So if I were a believer like you, I'd be very, verrry careful about arguing for anything on the basis of what a bunch of Bronze Age goat herders believed. It was, after all, those pagan Greeks who thought up anything close to Democracy. Certainly not the nutters who believe in a God who will kill you for masturbating.
It's shameful why people want to meddle in other people's private lives. On the other hand, the divorce rate is 70+ percent, why would gays want to be involved in anything like that.
You forgot Lot offering to give his virgin daughters to a mob. Since Jewish girls marry around the age of 13, one could imagine how young Lot's was.
The Mormons ceased both bigamy and polygamy which was a prerequisite if Utah wanted to enter the Union. However, they never officially forbade it. I think McReynolds was one of a few hold-outs that continue to this day.
Additionally, marriage has been one of those traditions fought over by both church and state. There was no formal religious wedding ceremony until about the 15th or 16th century. Even then Christian men were allowed mistresses.
Constantine's ministers overlooked his additional lovers, and called them wives of secondary rank. It's my understanding that Constantine murdered one of his sons and his mother for having designs on his throne (probably peace signs, the little hippy!) Either that or he peed on the toilet seat.
It's been until fairly recently that a marriage in front of a justice of the peace was considered not a "true" marriage which had to be done in a church.
In fact, in Victorian England there would be no official record of a marriage unless it was done in an Anglican church. You had no official birth or death certificate unless you were baptised in the Anglican church, and had your funeral there. So a lot of Anglican members were actually of the dissenting groups and non-Christian in all actuality.
It's my understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is still considered one of the dissenting churches in Great Britain, and would have little rights if not for "liberalizing" policies there. Roman Catholics put Mormons under the class of people who have had "invalid" baptisms (which doesn't include all Protestants.) So a Mormon convert to Catholocism would have to be rebaptised.
So since I was baptised a Mormon, then excommunicated by my request, and now practice Witchcraft, it's like I never actually was considered a baptised Christian ever.
)O(
[spanning a few posts here]
Interesting perspective, I do believe in evolution, just not that we evolved from monkeys... tadpoles ... whatever bacteria was created in the big bang. I believe that we have evolved as a society and learned right from wrong.
In Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890, Mormons and their leaders strongly and clearly spoke out against polygamy and have always urged members to be law abiding citizens where ever they live.
Many of the things you mentioned happened in what is still called the dark ages or apostasy, or the time between when Christ's apostles were all murdered for their beliefs and God's spirit was withdrawn from the people and finally the restoration of God's spirit among the people which lead to the restoration of Christ's church again on the earth. And, ya, I would definitely agree that many unthinkable things took place and regret that they were done in the name of god.
We as humans have done some pretty bad things to one another and I'm sure we both agree that we wouldn't want Witch Hunts brought back. As for the accounts in the Bible of these, by today's standards, outrages practices, it is important to remember that the Bible is not just doctorine to be followed word for word, it is also a historical account of things that happened, right or wrong. And the version we read today in English has been through the hands of a few translators and interpreters. And this is also exactly why God put prophets on the earth, he knows that times change, people come up with some pretty weird ideas when left to themselves and would need guidance. (From my perspective of course.) The point is, if we didn't learn from history we would be doomed to repeat it. And that is what I fear we are headed to again, repeating some of those events mentioned in the Bible where people are left to their own whims with little or no moral conscience to guide them. Please, no Chicken Little jokes, I'm not saying immediately but gradually this will happen. Sooo gradually that most people wont even notice it.
Anyway, anyone that reads the Bible without praying, pondering and seeking for inspiration as to how a principal applies to them TODAY is missing the point. Some things are interesting and historical maybe but should not be taken as a commandment from God to practice them today. Some common sense and practical judgment is required as well as adhering to the laws of the land today.
Sun, 10/19/2008 - 09:35 — cubiclegrrl (not verified)
I think I need to clean my PC monitor. For a second I thought you said Bronze age gnat herders.
the GOP, surely the party of 'tolerance' NOT!
I voted NO ON PROP 8 and for Obama/Biden as President/Vice-President.
get over it righties, your days in power are severely numbered.
These insane Christian extremists hate us for our freedoms. Lovely, aren't they? Christianity is zero different from their hate filled Islamic colleagues. The religious are all the same.
{Deleted, Sorry, Too Long. Please post your comment in an abbreviated form. SiteMonitor}
{Deleted, Sorry Josh. Still Too long. Shorten it. SiteMonitor}
everyone against prop eight seems so outraged at its success, do you guys forget we live in a democracy. the people voted and this is what they wanted. and by the people i mean everyone, including you. why is it so outraging that the people spoke. i think it is a huge wake up call that people do not want liberal agendas carried by big corporations, hollywood stars, or far left wingers forced upon them. no rights have been denied to homosexuals, so get over it.
to keep blacks and whites from marrying, it'd be ok with you?
It's how it was in some states until the fucking 60s. How shameful is that? (Hint: OK I'll GIVE you the answer, since you haven't a clue: It's as shameful as denying to consenting adults the same right, just because they're like-gendered).
Or hey. How about Asians Can't get married, just like queers, mkay? After all it's a church thing, and they're Shintos and Buddhists. And Muslims.
We vote we can Torture! Must be ok, the majority has spoken.
And yes. The right to enter into the same civil contract with identical terms and conditions as heteros IS being denied them. Get over it yourself, ya big homophobe.
Human Rights aren't up to the majority. You have them, I have them, and everyone should have them.
And this should have NEVER been up for a vote, for that very reason.
I see you signed up, nearly a month after the thread died, just to shit on a minority being denied civil and human rights. Nice work, hater.
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