Fox News Can't Believe Those Torture-Lovin' Frenchies
It takes a special kind of unexamined existence to sit through this segment and not have your head explode.
How many people have heard of the Milgram experiments?
The Milgram's experiment on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, which measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.
The experiments began in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to answer the question: "Was it that Eichmann and his accomplices in the Holocaust had mutual intent, in at least with regard to the goals of the Holocaust?" In other words, "Was there a mutual sense of morality among those involved?" Milgram's testing suggested that it could have been that the millions of accomplices were merely following orders, despite violating their deepest moral beliefs.
It--along with Jane Elliott's famous "blue eye/brown eye" experiment--were seminal in showing just how easily people could be persuaded to hate and hurt others. I remember seeing a school film on these experiments by a teacher concerned by the "Bomb bomb bomb, Iran" chants students yelled during the Iranian hostage crisis. It has stayed with me how susceptible people could be to suggestions of hate and fear, which may be why I object so much to the fear-mongering of the Republicans in the last ten years.
This week, French documentarians decided to update the Milgram experiment for the 21st century: in the guise of a TV game show, contestants were encouraged to administer what appeared to be near-lethal electrical shocks to rival contestants.
Although unaware that the contestants were actors and there was no electrical current, 82% of participants in the Game of Death agreed to pull the lever.
Programme makers say they wanted to expose the dangers of reality TV shows.
They say the documentary shows how many participants in the setting of a TV show will agree to act against their own principles or moral codes when ordered to do something extreme.
I think there are more parallels to be drawn beside the dangers of reality shows, although I'd be thrilled to see fewer of those on TV too. What was amazing was just how horrified Fox News anchor Martha MacCallum and Bill Hemmer were at the thought of people cheering for the torture of another individual. Glennzilla:
Speaking as employees of the corporation that produced the highly influential, torture-glorifying 24, and on the channel that has churned out years worth of pro-torture "news" advocacy, the anchors were particularly astonished that television could play such a powerful role in influencing people's views and getting them to acquiesce to such heinous acts. Ultimately, they speculated that perhaps it was something unique about the character and psychology of the French that made them so susceptible to external influences and so willing to submit to amoral authority, just like many of them submitted to and even supported the Nazis, they explained.
Yeah, those Frenchies...they're all weak-minded and easily-led sheep, willing to compromise their ethical and moral codes by authority figures. Go figure. Again, that the cognitive dissonance doesn't cause their heads to explode is simply stunning.
(T)he connection just never occurred to them. They just prattled away -- shocked, horrified and blissfully un-self-aware -- about the evils of torture and mindless submission to authority and the role television plays in all of that.
I can't wait to hear what Glenn Beck tells me to think about this!
the weak frenchman is the one that was being shocked.
... electric chair and be 'shocked' as Nancy Pelosi or President Obama talk about healthcare.
On the Beckster,on commericials switched over to fox,and glenda was true to form.I didn't know he has an audience in studio.Man they looked like missionaries,watching their messiah. In jebus name.
....the fools do not realize,a population that can ,..... not paticipate .............in the 'economy'...,can not keep it viable!..........."we are listening,.......and we're not blind.,......this is your life....this is your time."
the American version called the gop/teabagger party lead by
limpballs, beck and palin. watch daytime tv and you'll
see why the gop is just fucking stupid and where they
come from.
I wonder if they bothered to research the actual Milgram experimental results to see what percentage of Americans were willing to inflict torture?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
in terms of conservative vs. liberal beliefs.
... religious belief. Are atheists equally prone to this as folks who believe in the ultimate authority of an invisible guy in the sky?
How can Xtians hate Jews but love Jeebus?
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
.... Christ was tortured, subjected to a military trial, and executed on trumped-up charges. Do you think he'd approve of our dalliance with torture?
film and book characters from the vast treasure trove of fiction.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
What religious or philosophical group a person belonged to created no real difference in the response. It was actually a pretty fascinating experiment that Milgram had to put an end to after like 3 days because shit was getting out of hand and he was afraid of someone getting killed.
Rather chilling if you ask me.
the name of the single experimental subject who refused to proceed beyond the 300 volt level. I don't think it matters whether they self identified as a conservative or a liberal. Whoever it was, he or she was a person of strong and decent character.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
the very rare EXCEPTION!
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
Apparently we all have some hard wiring that makes us follow orders. So core beliefs, religous or otherwise, would be very interesting to know. We could all be exactly the same, or there could be a slight or major difference.
I'm sure the original researchers must have done some type of psychological profile prior to administering the tests.
Nevermind, BaScombe @ 9:23 answered the question. I'm glad I never believed or followed anything that psychopath said.
were politicizing the results of those experiments. I'm just suggesting that the one and only one person of the original forty test subjects to refuse to play after seeing the consequences might have been either someone from the left or right. I believe we would all like to think that if we were put to the test we would be that one who said no. I know I would.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Someone older or elderly, having seen the injustices of life might be less inclined to shock someone for entertainment value than some young and dumb person.
However, I get your point. It would be interesting to know about the one person.
That is what everyone that pulled the switch most likely would have said if they were asked beforehand. Check out the study, and check out the brown eyes, blue eyes study. The results are very disturbing, and can be duplicated today.
And today in politics isn't the candidate that doesn't wear a flag pin considered "unworthy" of being called an American? How is that really any different than the blue eyes, brown eyes distinction. The pin, or lack of one is just as arbitrary.
... push(ed) the ticking-time-bomb scenario to overcome rational thought.
The truth is more likely that if there are multiple agents/teams, each is independent of the others. They don't know who is in the team, where they are staging from, what their target is.
A double blind test.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
Those weren't the variables being studied.
Nor would that have been a determining factor back then. Then we were all Americans, now we have been polarized and led to beleive that there are actual differences in the 2 sides. There really aren't, in the average person. The differences lie in the people manipulating us for our money. Fox wants "their" ad money, and we have our advertisers pulling at our wallets.
todays political meanings. But I'm sure some profile would have been developed in which those attributes would have been evident.
Conformity is a strong inherent part of our human nature as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRh5qy09nNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-t0OwWc0Qw
These experiments are great examples to see when trying to understand what is going on in our world.
Hopefully everyone has seen them. Conform. And fight against them. Anyway. Human behavior is fascinating and scary at the same time.
Peace and Thanks for this great reporting and interesting topic!!
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
"Very weird!"
Und ain't dat what die "objectif" journalismus ist all about?
the emphasis is put on "government owned television channel", meaning that this wouldn't happen on privately owned channels...
... made a reference to Lt. Col. David Grossman's "On Killing," and that's an excellent book to read if you haven't.
"...the anchors were particularly astonished that television could play such a powerful role in influencing people's views and getting them to acquiesce to such heinous acts...."
This from the freaks who give a platform to the likes of animals such as Laura Ingraham and Liz and Dick Cheney, people who to this day sing the praises of torturing our perceived "enemies". This from the network that created the teabaggers. Incredible, even by FOX's standards.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
4th Amendment under attack! Body scans eventually mandatory, TSA official says.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100316/NEW...
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
with French bashing is just more of their moldy nostalgia.
of following the orders of a moron preznitwit to go kill brown people for 'hating our freedumz' and 'trying to kill my daddy', among other great lies.
and guess what!!!!!
We're still killing brown people and setting up bases! Now we're up to five(5) countries, NOT COUNTING IRAN!
We can't find a dollar for health care for any american, especially a poor one, but we sure can pour money into the killing machine.
The USA is another example, proving the findings of the milgram experiment and the 'Jane Elliot' experiment.
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
Which includes my cousin and his wife.
"Bush was so focused when told about the Towers attack" is what they said. I said no, the deer in the headlights look is what that turd had.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
When it happened I remember people saying, "Thank God, we have george bush in charge and not Gore."
I'd say, "Why, 9-11 happened on boosh's watch, he was essentially asleep at his post. They used to shoot soldiers for that."
I might then have to go into the PDB report and they'd have to ask me what that abbreviation meant.
Now of course they all have this one line they all seem to use, in unison now, "Oh what blog did you get that from?"
I usually say, "The BBC."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But, can they spell BBC?
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
I usually have to tell them what those letters mean too.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... was the immediate and obvious case of 'choir practice' the Bush Administration developed.
"I don't think anyone knew terrorists would use planes as missiles," was the carefully-crafted denial that enjoyed equal airtime with shots of the destruction.
There were already at least two in attempts in France to attack the Eiffel Tower by crashing hijacked jets into it.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And the fact that they all related the exact same words in the exact same way ... shoot, that's a sign in any decent crime/courtroom drama that someone's lying.
Yup, you are correct. It was all the same.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvlR1qYmrso
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I laughed. I cried. It was better than Cats.
have been considerations in structural design for a couple of generations. Ask the US Navy about that.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
in January 2001 was a plot to hit the Trade Center, but the Gunmen foiled the plot.
And yet these rethug turds say, "well, I never".
What was so chilling was the plane took off from Boston with Langley and his dad aboard.
"Let's talk dirty to the animals"
Stanley Milgram performed Nazi like experiments on volunteer college students to prove Nazis were somehow unique in performing Nazi like experiments.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And is this shocking?
Oh yeah, people on Fox are not educated
the Stanford Prison Experiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_...
This was shocking to see.
Stanford Prison Experiment Documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=67708...
To think these guys at the highest levels of the CIA etc. study this stuff and use it in societal wide ways too is hard to be aware of.
Abu Ghraib was a good example. But we as a society are becoming acclimated to torture and abuse in ways we need to fight against. 24 like Nicole mentioned is the perfect example and the degrading reality television shows etc. The respect for and loss of human life is lessening in their value or whatever. It's a nationwide or world wide experiment to some people.
Anyway. Great experiment study and great video above.
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
I'm sure this guy agrees with faux news:
http://www.spencersundell.com/blog/wp-content...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
victim if you want to see how easily people can be motivated to hate and hurt others. And I will bet my last paycheck that those doing the abusing, in the video, consider themselves Christians.
Somewhere, Jesus weeps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXsRH73Cnw8
Yeah those French really know how to torture their own people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpaL3oCdnjU
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
When I first heard about this on the news I knew it was a Milgram experiment. I actually would have loved to have seen a coordinated effort played out in different countries, including the U.S., and then have the results discussed on networks and/or online. Taking random samplings of conservatives,moderates and liberals from active (those delivering shocks) to passive participants (viewing audience) and having social psychologists examine their motivations would have been really fascinating, and I suspect, unnerving for some. There's a reason why Abu Ghraib happened and it wasn't because those involved were a bunch of 24-style, hard as nails badasses, in fact, they were just the opposite.
Talk about French torture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGM3ZTP2nw)O(
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
over this one any day. Reminds me of Lolita.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd3TC_8K77s&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12l276GipXQ&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO7-RLbpjHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CO52Fe1mKU
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
a past thread and found were you illuminating the Twain/Dracula comparison. Very interesting. Lots of stuff I didn't know. When you initialy said one was based on the other I was thinking I didn't recall Dracula having a sardonic wit or master storyteller.
His wit was a little too subtle. Lunging for Harker's bleeding chin after he cut himself shaving, and saying roughly such wounds are dangerous in this country.
Some of his leases in London he signed as Count DeVille, which seems to be a joke, but since Dracula means Son of the Devil (or more technically Son of the Dragon), it could've been a direct translation.
And on the first night in his castle, Harker refers to how well Dracula told stories of the country's past, as if he personally witnessed them.
If the Count had a sense of humor it was sardonic. Unfortunately, after Chapter 5 he essentially disappears from the story for long stretches, although you see his effects. And the book has 22 more chapters to go.
Here's an interesting feature rarely mentioned from chapter 27, the last:
Seven years ago we all went through the flames. And the happiness of some of us since then is, we think, well worth the pain we endured. It is an added joy to Mina and to me that our boy's birthday is the same day as that on which Quincey Morris died. His mother holds, I know, the secret belief that some of our brave friend's spirit has passed into him. His bundle of names links all our little band of men together. But we call him Quincey.
The joke is that's the same day Dracula died as well after being beheaded.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Chapter 2
Within, stood a tall old man, clean shaven save for a long white moustache, and clad in black from head to foot, without a single speck of colour about him anywhere....
Chapter 4
I knew I must reach the body for the key, so I raised the lid, and laid it back against the wall. And then I saw something which filled my very soul with horror. There lay the Count,but looking as if his youth had been half restored. For the white hair and moustache were changed to dark iron-grey. The cheeks were fuller, and the white skin seemed ruby-red underneath. The mouth was redder than ever, for on the lips were gouts of fresh blood, which trickled from the corners of the mouth and ran down over the chin and neck. Even the deep,burning eyes seemed set amongst swollen flesh, for the lids and pouches underneath were bloated. It seemed as if the whole awful creature were simply gorged with blood. He lay like a filthy leech, exhausted with his repletion.
http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/abinitio/im...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I read Dracula some 25 years or so ago and all I can say is, thanks for reminding me why I liked it so much.
Peter Gabriel has a great song:
We Do What We're Told (Milgram's 37), from "So"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PIHgV7TRqM
Kind of haunting.
Just a bunch of bullshit coming from both the game and Fox noise.
Make no motto of love that worships war
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100318/ts_yne...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Perhaps he should have linked to the FOX segment he claims to have watched which justifies this claim:
Ultimately, they speculated that perhaps it was something unique about the character and psychology of the French that made them so susceptible to external influences and so willing to submit to amoral authority, just like many of them submitted to and even supported the Nazis, they explained.
The segment shown here does not have any such discussion. Nor do any of the other two on this show posted at the FOX website. Nor do any have Bill Hemmer in them, for that matter.
When attacking FOX, be accurate.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
Unfortunately, we didn't have a clean copy of the video tape to use ourselves--we don't routinely record America's NewsRoom--and FoxNews didn't include that segment in their embeddable video, presumably because they realize how stupid it makes them look.
However, I had independent confirmation from several people who emailed me to let me know about it. Many of the posts you see here are the result of tips we're given by commenters and fans of the site.
Ok. Fair enough.
But how about when attacking Glen Greenwald?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I asked a question. I pointed out he did not link to the segment he paraphrases, and none of the available clips support his characterization. In fact, as it pertains to the discussion of the French, the clips which exist, contradict him.
As for Ms. Belle's report that she got e-mails saying it was discussed
by Bill and Martha, I am willing to take her word for the e-mails.
I cannot vouch for their accuracy.
"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HFxyFvMXHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rJAw-fuYHk
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Fox were probably just annoyed that people weren't actually being tortured.
Yes. That's it.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
The French do it and it's "shocking" we do it and it's "enhanced interrogation".
The French do it and it's a criminal act, and the "average" Fox viewer is appalled and up in arms about the injustice. The Americans do it and the "average" Fox viewer feels patriotic and proud.
I don't think the French were doing an experiment on the French public, I think they were punking us :) I think that they are going to let the right wing media junkies get all up in arms about the "insensitivity of the French people" then they'll turn around and tell us that the "audience" was in on it and that us and our hypocracy were the real things being studied by this group.
THAT is some data I want to see :)
And they prove it pretty much any chance they get.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
"Go figure. Again, that the cognitive dissonance doesn't cause their heads to explode is simply stunning."
Interesting Wikipedia article on that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_disson...
"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously."
So it's a mental conflict between ideas that don't fit together naturally. How can that bad fit be overcome?
The solution is megatons of rationalization, which is the province of rhetorical propagandists like Glenn Beck and other Fox News flying monkeys. It doesn't have to make sense, but if you draw enough arrows between liberals and Hitler, enough circles showing them together with Mao and Stalin, then even a normally sensible person can get snookered into a mindset where everything liberals and progressives say is a lie, which is called confirmation bias.
This should sound familiar to anybody that watches Fox News. They fill your head full of nonsensical liberal conspiracies (like ACORN), and then they pound home how liberals will always lie to defend themselves, so you should never pay them any heed. Rationalizations and confirmation bias. That's Fox. That's propaganda, 24/7/365. That's Rupert's Dementia.
You are so right it is spooky. I see it as news as drama. That is the stock and trade of the right media. What can they say to provoke high drama. They are living a damned soap opera! Where's the dreams for the future and ideas on how to get there? Oh, I forgot, it's hard to think about that when fear invades your every thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQo3JDqsPuY
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
..."hmmmm, how can I get French TV in MY home?"
Figures these turd brains would be all excited by such a possibility.
They have NO shame.
These people are immune to irony.
They prefer perma-press...
http://www.shaunsayre.com/70s/fads/leisuresui...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
As I recall there was quite a controversy about these experiments. It seems that the researchers did not bother to debrief their subjects and a lot of people walked away thinking they were bad people. All this in order to demonstrate what, that people are sheep and easily led? I guess we need an experiment to figure that out.
Fox was just pissed off they didn't think of it first.
Given the right conditions and circumstances any peoples are capable of crimes against humanity and these Fox news torture loving idiots would be the first to volunteer ... as long as there was zero risk to themselves that is , otherwise they'd stand back and watch others do the dirty work and cheer them on . It's no good to hate , I know , but I do absolutely hate these people , no lower life form exists on planet earth , pathetic , despicable morons . They are a waste of oxygen .
But then I studied pych.
However, there are actually worse experiments out there and I don't think that Milgrams should in any way be used as a method of excusing torture.
No matter the situation you still have a choice. if you choose to break the law in such an egregious way your ass should be in prison. If fifty guys gang rape a woman, they don't go throwing around Milgrams as an excuse to why they did it. They go to prison for rape. This is why we have law in the first place.
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