Hardball: Michelle Bernard Doesn't Think Women Should Worry Their Pretty Little Heads About Pay Equality
Where did Michelle Bernard come from, and why on earth would anyone ask her opinion on the Lilly Ledbetter Act, which President Obama signed into law last week?
The first question is easier to answer. Bernard is President of the deceptively-named Independent Women's Forum, a thinktank that is neither "Independent" (Prominent members include Kate O'Beirne, Nancy Pfotenhauer, Lynne Cheney and the Podhoretz boys' wife and mother, Midge Decter. Funding comes from organizations like the Castle Rock Foundation and the Scaife Foundation. Sound independent to you?) nor particularly interested in furthering the welfare of women. In fact, some of their declared stances are against gender equality, like Title IX and the Violence Against Women Act. A curious case of self-loathing that must be given an inordinate amount of airtime, don't you think?
And who better to ask to speak on monopolize a segment on a bill that simply gives women the right to sue if they discover--years after they've been hired--that they have been working for less money for the same job than their male counterparts, as Lilly Ledbetter discovered. Naturally, Bernard and the IWF do not support the Ledbetter Act. How dare women think they should be entitled to equality, those silly little things?
What happened is…the case was overturned at the Supreme Court on a technicality. Instead of being forced to bring a lawsuit that alleges discrimination within a 100 days…180 days, women now have a longer period of time to do that. The problem with the legislation that was signed yesterday is we don’t know what the unintended consequences are going to be. Number one, it tells women that you’re a victim. Number two, we don’t know what the burdens are going to be that are going to be put on employers. Will employers all of the sudden say if I…maybe I should hire less women…fewer women in the workplace because they might sue me 20, 30, 40 years from now. Insurance is going to go up. What is the negative impact that this could possibly have on women, and for that reason, the Independent Women’s Forum and the Independent Women’s Voice does not think that this is a great day in America for women.
Holy cow, my blood pressure is rising just re-typing that drivel. First, it teaches women to be victims? Once again the wrong-headedness of conservative logic rears its ugly head. This law now acknowledges women who have already been victimized by sexist employers and cheated out of fair wages. Those unexpected consequences, Michelle, will be employers--those ones afraid of lawsuits 20, 30, 40 years from now (which you realize means they have been cheating their female employees out of fair wages for that time)--actually abiding by the Equal Pay Act of 1963.
Chris Matthews, bless his clueless little heart, confuses issues by getting into an area that Bernard feels more comfortable--the issue of fair pay. As far as Bernard is concerned, anyone who goes into female-dominated professions like teaching or nursing should just suck it up, because that revered "free market" has spoken and their jobs just don't merit higher wages. I'm completely serious and she's seriously deranged.
The problem with that is that is a red herring. People say that this is about equal pay, that women earn 77 cents on the dollar for every dollar that a man earns and it’s just not necessarily true. If you really go in and do an analysis, there are a lot of reasons—sex discrimination does exist, we’re not saying it doesn’t exist – but there are a lot of reasons why women might earn less. If you decide you’re going to work for a non-profit instead of working for a Fortune 500, you’re going to earn less money. If you come out of the work force for 10, 15, 20 years to raise your kids, you’re going to earn less money. That’s not sex discrimination. So to say that this bill is a champion of women’s rights and the federal government is looking out for women, it’s completely incorrect. It’s just not true and we do our daughters a disservice and our sons truly a disservice when we say that this is great legislation.
Oh Michelle, you self-loathing, lying, hypocritical disinformation specialist. It IS true that women earn .77 to men's $1, and it's not because they opt for working at a non-profit. It's for the same job. Helps if you actually read the studies, Michelle, instead of asserting "facts" from your posterior region. That's a disservice to anyone who watches your punditry. As Cecile Richards of Planned Parenthood says, every woman who has ever worked in America has run into sex discrimination. Richards is the daughter of Ann Richards, and I only wish that she had inherited her mother's silver tongue to show Bernard for the fool she is.
In fact, as I was bouncing ideas off the site team for this post, some of the women volunteered their own experiences:
I defended a female co-worker who some wanted to drum out of the machine shop before ever working a day there by making the comparison to older male co-workers who had bad backs since they didn't have the sense to protect them over the years, and got them to leave her alone and give her the same chance as they had. They seemed shocked when she handled the heavy tools every bit as well as the men did even though she was skinny as a rail.
and
And I've watched grown men complain that women were going to destroy their world because they could not have their Playboy centerfolds hanging up in the shops and get mad that they could not take a piss anywhere the mood suited them because some woman was going to possibly see them. Heaven forbid how they ever survived at home without peeing in the kitchen sink if they really had to go.
and
I had men openly tell me that I took their son's job, that I had no business working in a power house, that I was nuts, and that I would fail, and I had a union in place to protect me unlike so many others who I'm sure have gone through similar things in male dominated fields. I'm quite sure Michelle Bernard has never had to face any of those types of realities. She's a disgrace to women who want to be treated equally in the work place.
and
I, too, have had experience with (a) prejudice in the workplace and (b) the benefits of a union, in my case, the Teamsters. The first instance was many, many years ago when I was a college student by day and a key-punch operator by night, and those in IT will know just how long ago that was. All the key punch operators were women. All the techs and programmers in the other room were men. They were paid nearly double per hour than what we gals made - it was not a union shop. I knew one of the guys was planning to quit, because we went to college together, took many of the same classes. So, with his help and advice, I took some extra courses to earn the same certificate in operations as he had, and learned fortran and basic just to sweeten the pot (we are talking the Jurassic age of computers, here). My qualifications for the job could not have been better. But when I applied, I was turned down - flat out - because I was a woman and it required 'a male brain'. More than that, two weeks later I was fired from my key punch position... because I had the audacity to even apply for a better job within the company. Might have given the other women 'ideas'.
And there were more stories...stories that mirror my own experiences with discrimination in the workplace as well. The truth is that most women have had these experiences and as even Tweety--not exactly known for his feminism--wonders how anyone could object to the inherent fairness of the Lilly Ledbetter Act.
But then again, Michelle Bernard isn't just anybody, is she?
How about the husbands who have to work two jobs because their wives aren't making equal pay?
Jeanne
Klingon. Isn't it obvious? Not from this planet that's for sure.
In reality she is probably a mutated form of Ferengi since like her corporate masters she cravenly worships profit.
Klingons would not associate with those who regularly lie, cheat, steal and call it "good business practice."
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
They don't have to fool everyone in their fantasy world, just the ones that watch his puny little show, it's worth a couple of votes here and there to spout their bile.
The working class will show them how much they appreciate the lunatic ideals in the voting booths.
Jeanne
'Cause workplace injuries are the result of a lack of common sense?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Better hope you are never victimized like Lilly Ledbetter was. You will find out that your current paternalistic and controlling masters aren't so benevolent and are more than glad to use people like you for their personal gain.
But by all means, be a syncophant suckup to the man if you don't have the courage do do what's right. Susan B. Anthony had plenty of courage and will be remembered for all time because of it. You---not at all---and will be soon forgotten.
On the other hand, I guess it's just easier to be cowed and browbeaten into silence with a big salary and important sounding title. If that's you, then you're just another worthless MSM hack.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
This type of self-denying woman makes me crazy! Perhaps her man's salary and all men's salaries can be lowered to those of the women's who hold the same positions and do the same things as the men do for their living...? Whaddaya say?!
We all need to be making wages that pay us well and allow us a lifestyle that makes sense... not a greedy, avaricious, obscene one, but one that allows us to care for our basic needs (shelter, food, sustenance, children, older parents, and some charity for others less fortunate than us). I'm advocating something that makes sense, is fair to both genders, and grants each one of us the dignity and respect we, simply as humans, deserve. Time for some common sense.
is the correct term:
If a women works the same job I do and for years, even decades is paid less, and the only different variable is the person's sex, then the person is in fact a victim of a crime.
BTW: Whenever I see Michelle Bernard on MSNBC she makes my skin crawl. If I was a women I might put my fist through the television, or at least throw a remote or two.
she, as a repug, would still vote against her own best interests.
Kinda makes it hard for Michelle to go to her boss and ask for a raise after wards, huh?
"How could you want a raise? What about all that stuff you said on Chris Matthews?"
that was a male and that appeared like half as many times on-air as she did (all other things being equal) was getting paid 20 or 30 percent more she'd raise hell.
That reminded me and I found the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrG8w4bb3kg
It is amazing when the curtain comes down and these people begin to espouse their true beliefs.
Just a big show!
it tells women that you’re a victim
One: Oh no, we can't have that! We can't have any law that tells women they are victims (to use the correct grammar)!
Two: Um, you do know there's a law against stealing your car, yes?
One: Oh, no, you're telling me I'm a victim! Away with that evil law!
Two: And then there are the laws again arson, murder, rape, assault....
One: No, no, NO! No victims! Down with such tyranny! An end to all laws!
I can't stand it when these Republican hacks are allowed to go on TV and trash someone else's ideas and actions without ever having to offer their own solution. Does Michelle Bernard have no problem with the Supreme Court decision? Does she have some secret great idea that would make all of this more equitable? Let her throw her ideas out there and defend them.
Why do people like her and Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly get to knock everything Democrats do without having to explain what they would do differently (besides doing nothing)? I guess we'd better get used to this because the news media has suddenly discovered dissenting voices now that Democrats are in charge.
... for talking heads?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Reslugs are forced to continue to lie to their ignorant, uneducated sheep because Reslugs know they are becoming irrelevant and are seeing their sick, hate filled, party dying.
Sexist boogey man hiding?
Is that this year's halloween costume?
Why is it whenever I read Nancy Pfotenhauer's name, I'm reminded of Sophia Petrillo's 'How would you like a punch in the puh-face' line from Golden Girls? And have an overwhelming urge to do just that.
Wonder how much they pay Michelle Bernard? Glad she never had one moment of worry like single mothers who worry they can't support themselves and their children. She. Doesn't. Get. It.
Times are good for Republican house negros. If you're black and willing to argue in favor of rich, white men, you've got a seat on the panel.
more people of color in the fore-front, to sort of blunt the (at least visual) effects of a black president?
I Tivo Hardball and every time she appears, I fast forward through the segment now. She often recites every GOP talking point about Democrats, especially Hilary Clinton, and never seemed to offer any new insights. I love seeing Jonathan Capehart on the cable networks, but some of the rush to include more African-Americans among commentators has promoted people who lack the intellectual heft. Roland Martin on CNN lacks any understanding of issues. The networks seems to be doing their best to load the favorable coverage of Obama by having the most unthoughtful and conservative GOP commentators. The last time I looked, these people lost two elections by wide margins and now only seem to hold sway over backward Southern states and the Mormon West.
That does not keep them from saying over and over that tax cuts work (although they omit the part about them mostly going to people with incomes over $250,000). They seemed to have collective amnesia about the dismal last eight years of the Bush junta.
Would Ms Bernard advocate brushing off sexual assault, no reporting it? I mean after all, it tells the woman who reports the crime that she is a victim as well.
Moron. I still can't fathom how a stroke of Darwin doesn't take idiots like this woman out before they they leave their teens. I guess she had big strong men to take care of her all along.
And how the hell did she make it through college? Howard and Georgetown Law must have extremely low standards. Maybe she fucked her way through. I mean, after all, she is a chick.
And while we're being all chicks here, lady, grab you up a stylist. Your hair and makeup are dreadful. Bad flat ironing plus white blue shadow all over the lid equals bad. and I don't mean good bad. I mean unattractive and whorish. Very conservo-femme pundit of you.
me-oww!
Tacky and cheap, just like her. She'd fit right in on a hooker stroll. She's a disgrace to decent women everywhere and should be ashamed of herself.
or other crazy wardrobe related stuff.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
and her bizarre fashion sense. On second thought, maybe not.
wasn't that mutton dressed as lamb?
me-oww!
For someone so 'high on the hawg', she sure looked like a pig. How fitting, since she is married to a swine.
stuffing a six figure wardrobe into plastic garbage bags.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
made her ass look big -- although I don't think it was JUST the pantsuits...
me-oww!
when dodging Balkan gunfire.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Ack, if nothing else, she could have at least applied the blue shadow to her lower part of her eyelids, not all the way up towards her brow! Just wrong color of shadow all around, and not used in moderation the way it needs to be...
/ end cattiness
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
That non-majority (read "straight" white male) republicans tend to be filled with self-loathing types, whether they be gay, female, black, hispanic, etc? And self-loathing is pretty effed up for someone in leadership positions.
is a prime example of that
Steele must get paid a lot of money to be such a sellout. Guess the fact that 95% of African Americans voted for Obama must not be particularly relevant to him. Maybe he and Michelle can hook up and compare notes on how to perfect the art of being a flaccid weakling that stands for nothing except shilling for controlling, paternalistic old white men.
And how funny is it that the new leader of the RNC's last name sounds the same as steal. Only the GOP could pull that off.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Steele scares me.
I happened to catch him on one of the Sunday shows. He was defending his campaign (which he lost) putting out bumper stickers that said "Steele Democrat". The announcer called him on it for being dishonest. Steele defended himself by bringing up the "Reagan Democrat" stickers that used to be around. the announcer asked Steele "Why don't you have bumper stickers that say 'Steele Republican'?"
Steele smiled and said with out joking and said, "That's a good idea!"
Good story. It just reinforces how clueless this guy really is and how lacking his vision and leadership skills are. But that's par for the course for the GOP. If he thinks he will take on Mc Connell and Boner-head in remaking the GOP---good luck, he will need a lot of it.
In reality, he is in there just as a powerless puppet of the patriarchy that wants to give the GOP an phony image of respectability and the appearance that they aren't whites only.
People like him and Michelle are cheap and disgraceful sellouts, but I guess that there are plenty of political prostitutes out there that can be bought off by money and appearance of power.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
about the anti-immigration hysteria of the last two years?
It seems to have pushed conservative Republican Hispanics toward the center, Linda Chavez, Lionel Sosa, etc. As much as they stress "assimilation," there is a chance they maybe got an inkling of an understanding that Rethugs don't care if Latinos assimilate. They don't want us here period.
Anyway, Michelle Bernard does drive me crazy. In fact, I watch To the Contrary on PBS, and the conservative panelists always drive me crazy. (Although, if I didn
t watch it, I wouldn't have discovered that Linda Chavez doesn't like any of this xenophobia business either...)
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
make a political living off of GOP outreach to Hispanics. Their rejection of xenophobia is a love of dollars and nothing else.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I wonder how long it will be before she gets a column in NewsMax. After all, that's one of Scaife's rags.
from a neocon?
It is a simple truth that the wingnuts refuse to acknowledge, you don't have a victim without a perp.
Let us chat about the perps, shall we? Not on the corporate media, we shan't.
IWF is nothing more than a front organization for more of the 'Let's go back to 1876' group that have popped up all over reslug-dominated areas of America - classically in the South. They clearly promote female brain-washing given the garbage they spew. I bet money she supports what Rushbo says as well if you pressed her.
Tweety seems to think she's 'moderate', what ever that means and can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to rational thought about what she says...
Bernard should be exposed for what she is - a NeoCon - and what she utters about this EXTREMELY important issue to ALL working folks is nothing but the talking points she got on her fax machine earlier in the day from Rush.
then, after actually LISTENING to what she has to say, it becomes obvious that she's paid a lot of money by somebody who liked it the WAY IT USED TO BE... fat white men pulling the strings, you're all too stupid to discuss this so quit asking those questions, love me because I'm beautiful because I have nothing to say.
Why does Tweety keep asking her back on the show?
He must be HOT for her.
if wages would have kept pace with prices of life, it would never have been necessary for mass women in the workforce. I know of many women that work in factories that despise having to be put through the crap, but have to have a job, or their family starves. Nobody ever dealt with that sad reality, but instead used the empower women movement to further the more that work, more that pay taxes. It was never intended that women get paid the same. It was intended that their income would be added into the family income, and thus increase their tax owed. The entire system is a bad joke.
oh, it's just ConcernedCanuck, reading from the reich-wing talking points...
using his masculine mandibles to soften the whale blubber for his significant other. someone shlud defend him from these false insimblinations.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
this has nothing to do with left or right. Face reality. When did women need to work? Not until it was absolutely necessary to survive. It had nothing to do with women's rights and it has nothing to do with sexism. They just didn't have to. Now they do. It's as simple as that.
even a ConcernedCanuck can understand. sorry, both your 'logic' and grasp of 'reality' elude me. and to think i live so close to canada...
I guess unmarried female teachers back in the day didn't have to work because they could have married someone 10-20 years their elder and spurt out kids every year.
Oh, that's right, you think single women aren't really women.
......CocernedCanuck said: if wages would have kept pace with prices of life, it would never have been necessary for mass women in the workforce......
I agree with this Canuck. And somebody should do a study on the percentage of Daycare kids that turn out to be screwed up adults. Just look at the tactics used by the police, military,and other "authorities", not to mention the almost total lack of honesty and integrity in society today.
It won't happen, but it would only seem right that before any of the talking heads open their mouths on the air, they be forced to disclose the sources of their income and potential conflicts of interest.
Every Federal worker (from the janitors in the Smithsonian to the Social Security worker on the front line, to the head of the EPA) must report outside income.
Why doesn't the same rule apply to the so-called journalists who seem to have so much sway?
Maybe that would put people like Chuck Todd at MSNBC and his other corporatist lapdog colleagues out of a job.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
What is wrong with someone who defends keeping women down. A African-American at that. Is she that stupid to say this will be an attorneys cash cow. Just pay women the same thats all. No law suits.
The next thing that needs to happen is a reversal of that bill that made it more difficult (impossible more like it) for individuals to declare Bankruptcy.
If you would like to give some feedback directly to Michelle Bernard, you can do so at the website of her organization, the Independent Women's Forum. http://www.iwf.org/news/show/21090.html
The name -- how deliciously ironic.
As if 'Independence' is what would be espoused by a load of 'happy to be paid less for the same work' worn out old cooters.
me-oww!
If woman long ago hadn't stood up for their rights Michelle would be now barefoot and having babies. She is bested to benefit from others before her who paved the way. Her reason's for not wanting equal pay should go over well with her employer. Let's see what the MSNBC have to say when her contract comes up and they offer her last money then NBC analyst Howard Fineman who does the same thing. Now if Michelle does accept a much lower salary for doing the same job as Mr. Fineman then we'll know she is plane stupid. It's funny how people say one thing but do another. She's only used for her color to suck others in the lies the GOP is pushing. She will join token Micheal Steele until the GOP is finished with both and kick them out.
Michelle would be a slave. And teh horrorz -- A VICTIM!
me-oww!
!Of course there will be unintended consequences, Juno Hilo Charlie!
Nobody's saying women don't deserve 'equal pay', but there's impacts!
If you unionize females in the US, *and that's what this law is*, you
no longer have any entry level opportunities, or any "right to work".
Employers, faced with a new law forcing them to pay women 'equal pay'
for 'equal work', will either 1) not promote women, or 2) not hire
women in preference to men, and will 3) not hire entry-level women.
What employer would risk the backward liability to hire *any* woman?
Who is going to hire an administrative support woman, with the risk
that at any time she can file a 'equal pay' lawsuit, when employers
have a selection of outsource alternatives working for $12 an hour?
Every woman has just been made into a "golden calf"! They'll soon see another ten or twenty million jobs about to move off overseas!
What employer is going to use pay as incentive for performance now?!
Are we doomed to be drones at minimum pay for mediocre performance,
tiered up in Admin 1, Admin 2, Admin 3, Admin 4, Admin 5, Admin ±, begging like welfare tax dole bunnies, "please, pick me! pick me!"?
What about the impact on sports franchises!? TV news anchor persons?
CEO's of corporations? Bank presidents? Who would take the back-risk?
Who'd ever hire a woman into a position not explicitly sub-principal?
Then what about 'equal pay' for men?! Is that next? Are we all union now? Ask any man, "are you receiving equal pay"? How they hell would they know?! They negotiate their best deal, then if they don't like their advancement, pay raises and bonuses, *they find another job*!
Where are the sociological studies by industry to support this law?!
Has anyone considered cost impacts of business liability insurance?
Is that what we want as Americans, with retail margins below 5%, to add equal-pay litigation risk and insurance cost (and carbon taxes)?
'Equals' is a wonderful ideal, but we won't get there by legislation.
Martin Luther King found and died, got suffrage and a minority hire,
but our American schools grade and won't graduate 50% of minorities who will never see the inside of a corporate office or mil.gov hire.
The impact of this law will be to *reduce aggregate worker income*!
It's just another fat sop for the ballooning US litigation industry, and another fat (fill in) Security Department for the Welfare State.
MSM drones will provide suppressing cover fire against any protest, and in ten years our kids will be like any other kids in a 3W town, slum dogs fighting for their chance on the Neo Soviet Bloat Train.
Hey, good luck women, you deserve equal pay, if you can find a job in America's net-zero socio-economy! Wake up and smell the Mumbai!!
Final answer? Another tragedy, ... as much of life is.
boils down to what exactly? They are the default gender for shitty pay? Should black people be paid less because they're black people? You're saying the exact same thing. And it's moronic.
Here's a thought. Everyone who thinks women should be paid less, based solely on gender should be in line for a pay cut, to the typical level women get paid. See how YOU like it.
me-oww!
you may not make michelle look smart, but at least her (version of your similarly illogical) arguments are succinct!
affirmative action program.
i didn't have to worry that much myself about pay disparity vis-a-vis my male peers over the years. i merely compensated by outperforming them and i was rewarded in my salary in a likewise manner.
engineers are like that, quid pro quo. i love 'em.
i did however take note of the vast disparity, both in pay, and attitude towards women in other career paths within the companies i have worked. sometimes covert, sometimes overt. when challenged, any reason under the sun given other than the real one; gender bias.
bernard is living in a wingnut fantasyland. my 30 years experience in american industry shines truth on her lies. shame on her. she's a disgrace to her gender.
Does michelle (gri)malkin belong to that group?
There's is one possible outcome that I consider the likeliest. Instead of equalizing pay by raising women's they lower mens.
Afterall these are people who scream for tax breaks while earning 400 times the amount of their average worker in a job that hasn't been outsourced
Yet.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Membership is limited to those whose descendants crossed over the other ocean to reach our shores.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
It's not about you kitties!
Anyone working in private industry negotiates their best deal, then evaluates their promotions, benefits and bonuses, and if they don't like it, they find another job! It's been that way for all humanity.
Now comes a law: "All Little Green Men must receive 'equal pay'!!"
Forcing employers to give 'equal pay' to little green men, would so totally fark up business, (although not government, which is equal welfare tax dole for equal mediocrity of performance), net impacts would *reduce aggregate workers income* ... in favor of outsourcing!
'Outsourcing' is a Neo word for putting your ass out on the street.
Who the heck wants to live in a broken-down marxist economic system?
Is every little green violinist going to get paid as Itzak Perlman?
Our Congress has a Constitutional mandate to consider consequences.
They have failed US, once again.
Really, they've failed you kitties, although you don't know it yet.
You should have fought for 'equal representation', for 55% of all jobs must be awarded to women. At least then you'd have had a chance.
GTG. Mumbai's on the other line.
not. and stoopid to boot. You have stretched "Women get equal pay" equals "Marxism."
I'm sure how an elephant got in your pajamas, you'll never know, Captain Spaulding.
me-oww!
Not only that, on top of his sexists arguments his green men analogy is bodering on racism, since it could so easily be altered to black, brown, red, yellow etc.
I think I want some M&M's.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Carefull with your answer!
Bad analogy.
There's no question Itzak Perlman is a superior violinist.
But if he was just one in an entire section of string players
He should be paid accordingly.
And as for cutting the best deal or getting another job,
That's never been the case, especially when employers agree on what their costs (wages etc.),should be to maximize profits
There's no union for collective bargaining on wages
And there's a lack of jobs as in todays economy, (and they would stick to those cost/profits estimates that you left the other company over.)
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
These idiot bastards and the hyperbolic rage and moronic faux analogies.
No one advocating for fair wages for every employee is advocating that a 2nd violinist in the (unionised) Seattle Symphony be paid the same as a guest performer, a soloist. And if you morons think that, well you're morons. Can't say fairer than that.
What is being advocated is that people who do the exact same job get the exact same pay, and to have equal opportunity when skills match. This isn't to say, "I have to hire a female, so I'll hire the least qualified candidate;" what it does mean you can't say, "I will hire this less qualified guy because the female is a girl."
What it doesn't mean is "I have to pay the sous chef the same as my head chef, because the sous chef is a woman;" what it does mean is "I have to pay my experienced female sous chef the same as my experienced male sous chef."
ChipH and his homies are obviously to goddamn simple minded to understand THAT simple concept
me-oww!
It's also not in businesses best interests to have constant renegotiating or leaving even if it did work.
That would mean they would lose their more experienced workers who'll walk for the better deal, than they had when they accepted the lower amount that may've been good at the time they were hired, and lose their expertise for someone new who might not be as experienced but came when deal were overall higher.
And then we'll hear the same whining we heard from businesses just a few years ago, "What's happened to American's loyalty to the company," or, "Honestly officer, I had to hire these illegal aliens. Americans just don't want to work anymore."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I hear ya, chip.
Those women going around thinking they have the right to earn a living wage and eat and stuff are just so so so unreasonable. They will ruin everything.
You gave 'em the vote and they weren't grateful.
You let 'em have a job so they wouldn't starve and they aren't grateful.
Now they want to get paid the same as real people.
Shocking!
Additionally, equal pay is just shorthand anyway. It's actually equal pay scales. Essentially you're hired under the same conditions, with increasing scales of pay to encourange initiative. If the objectives are clear and not based upon non-objective standards, your pay increases or stays the same based on ability.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
So sad. It's not about you kitties.
I have thirty years in my career profession, all performance based, all current state-of-the-art, a 16-hour-a-day grind, but am daily being squeezed by clients able to outsource my skill sets to India.
I'm working for half what I used to now, a quarter of the billable hours a year, while the associates of mine who outsourced to India, even my own brother, have grown fat and Orange, on the Mumbai skim.
'Equal pay' will just push all admin jobs directly offshore. What can't be offshored, will be squeezed out of entry level, the way pilots today earn less than 1/4th of pilots from first generation,
the way engineers today are begging to work *for free* as interns,
and the way the great mass of folks are now American Idle.
'Equal pay' will crush any admin or trades opportunities minority women might have had, and will send minority men to the gallows.
And that's why corporate titans and their stooges in government make trillions, while you're so happy to get $40K as 'equal pay' Admin 3, when there's minority women able to Admin 4 your Admin 3 for $24K.
But you can't see any further than your own tail, and they know that.
Seig Hail to Big Brother up your ass, and End of Performance Pay ™.
We are all Neo Soviets now. You don't know it yet, but you will.
boo hoo. sounds like you deserve it, asshat.
And I never said or implied it WAS all about me. You, on the other hand, projector that you are, seem to being labouring under the misconception that women receiving equal pay IS all about YOU. Those of us who are critical thinkers can draw that inference from your lengthy diatribes in which you go on, nearly endlessly about your job, your skills &c.
It's your greedy corporate men that are doing the outsourcing. Look into it. Maybe Mumbai is more your speed...
BTW, "Seig Heil" and Soviet marxism? Boy you are stupid. No wonder people are shunning you for Indians.
And always great to see a moron justify shitting on a specific group when fairness will cut into his slice of the pie. You know how we got around this sort of shit when I was growing up -- one person did the cut, and the other got first choice.
Shorter ChipH "Women should make less money, because if they don't, then I will." Thanks for playing, Greedy Guts.
me-oww!
Shorter ChipH "Women should make less money, because if they don't, then I will."
You nailed it.
It also seems to me that Chipmunk's argument appears to be based on the fantasy that "equal pay" means that everyone gets the same pay regardless of experience, qualifications, seniority, or job description. It's the only way some of his statements make sense.
That is, as I'm sure everyone else here realizes, nonsense. Ysbaddaden mentioned above that "equal pay" is shorthand, which it is; originally shorthand for "equal pay for equal work" but later clarified to "equal pay for work of equal value."
Your mixing your historical analogies (indeed you put the anal into analogies). Big Brother is a reference to George Orwell's 1984 about the Communist movement writ too large. Sieg hiel was the cry of Nazis who were of the fascist bent(technically the name of an Italian party). They're polar opposites of what Aristotle would call the mean of political virtue.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
You're mixing your historical analogies...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And we're already seeing the results of all that off-shoring; short-term gain for long-term losses to businesses. And then when the "kitties" start holding on to their wallets, the fat cats start whimpering to Congress for bail-outs or simply cease to exist, for there is no longer a market for their product.
I seriously doubt you have any real experience in the real world.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
who was executive secretary to the CEO of a humongous oil company used to tell me, "Ricky, never underestimate the stupidity of even the highest corporate executives." But what did she know. According to Alice she did less for me than Raplh Nader.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I once worked the rigs in Wyoming and we went through a period when we couldn't find anyone who could finish out a single day of work before quitting. It was hard work. I even convinced my best friend who at the time was 6'7" and 230 lbs of solid muscle to try it. He lasted less than half a day...
Then one day, they hired a gal who probably weighed 100 lbs wet. No one expected her to do well, but she far exceeded anyone's expectations. She was still on the job long after I quit and moved on. Sadly, I know they were paying her less than any of the guys even though she turned out to be one of the best hands on the rig...
Congratulations, kitties!
You just proved Michelle Bernhard correct!
Well done, angels.
What are you, idiot, another one of those 14 year olds who just discovered Ayn Rand?
Here's a hint, try Playboy.
I doubt any girl will go out with you to the prom.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
let see. Can't get my name right, can't figure out how to attach a reply to a comment. You're just mummy's little Einstein, aren't you?
me-oww!
We get it now Archie, you're pissed off that your 1950's version of America is crumbling to dust. And there won't be enough cookie bakers and slaves to serve you. Too bad that time passed you by.
Do us a favor and move to Mumbai, maybe you can help your employer cut costs on their phone bill. Take Michelle with you too, India is a paternalistic culture where men are in charge of the household. You'll both do great there.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Funny how those who oppose fascistic tendencies of extreme nationalistic government, essentially ran by corporations who can make politicians dance to their tune, are all Marxists.
Imagine the Greatest Generation's surprise.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the case was overturned at the Supreme Court on a technicality
Bull. A lie told to conceal the meaning of the decision and so to make light of its impact. It was no technicality. The Supreme Court re-wrote the meaning of the law such that a claim of pay discrimination had to be made within 180 days of the first discriminatory paycheck. That essentially declared that the subsequent acts of discrimination were not illegal since they were not independently actionable.
It was a blatant act of "judicial activism." If some liberal panel had been done something similar in pursuit of justice, the wingnuts would be screeching to the heavens about the horror of it all.
I wonder when slavery was outlawed in the US, whether there were conservatives arguing that was the government interfering with the marketplace?
Only an oppressive government could give people their freedom?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm reading Mike Lux's Progressive Revolution in preparation for a book chat we'll be having with him this coming Thursday, and it's stunning to see how utterly predictable conservative arguments have been to every progressive step.
I remember how the controversy over unfunded government mandates during the 90s sounded reminiscent of plantation owners who said they would free their slaves, if someone paid for them.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The Bible told 'em so.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
How much "work" did those male CEOs do to earn their unmerited bonuses?
Is anyone else peeved that ChipH has to explain to us stupid little "kitties" why we should do the exact same work for less because we're too ignorant to understand and need his benevolent instruction to not get lost? *rolls eyes*
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Men who are for unequal pay scales for women aren't real men.
They're like the guys who so doubt their prowness, that they want to marry virgins, so they have no one to compare them to.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Thanks ysbaddaden. And good point! :)
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
Yeah, I want women so experienced they can think of things I couldn't in my horniest delireums.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
taking place at the BBC in London, or CBC in Toronto. Michelle Bernard would have been quartered, tarred and feathered so bad it's not even funny.
But hey! We can't have that here, in da greatest country zin dee world, can't we?
The Limbaugh-Palin Party (LPP) seems to have many self-loathing turncoats who want to suppress and keep down others just like them who are trying to succeed. Remember the emetic Clarence Thomas railing against affirmative action, by which he had reached his undeserved position? Is *every* LPP leader like this?
Bernard: "It's just not necessarily true."
She did regain her spine later on and muster: "It's just not true."
Did Matthews intentionally muddy the waters with his statements about nurses?
My "inherited massive wealth" lawyer boss avoided the contracted 90-day review that would have increased my salary for MONTHS after the due date....(he head hunted ME, I didn't show up hat-in-hand to beg for job.)
During the heat of a major trial, I informed him that I would resign if in fact we did not have the review in the next 24 hours and the contracted increase of my salary.
His retort: "...women don't need to make money. They have men who pay their rent and bills"
My retort: "Do tell, Mister __________, do women receive cheaper rents, cheaper prices for necessities such as food, cars, fuel, insurance, medicine, pay lower rate for taxes, and for any single available service than men do?"
My ending snark: "...how many of your mistresses' rents and bills are paid by you?...does your wife realize she can quit breeding those tax deductions of yours....since apparently your fantasy-world tax laws allow all your mistresses' to be deductions?"
Walking the blocks to the court house: we passed a dry cleaner, dragged him inside to read the list: all the women's prices were higher than for men.
I got the raise, the review became moot.
I'm all for equal work for equal pay. Please show me in America today a female working who is making less money than a male, working in the same profession, same experience and competence and all other things being equal. In what profession/workplace in America do women make 77 cents vs the male making a dollar all things being equal? Please educate me.
You see the most telling fact? Conservative!
For sure you know that whatever she has done she did it on her own without help from anyone.
hell I doubt if these conservative parents even fed her when she was a baby.
I am so sick of these I did it all myself ignorant blather.
These people are greedy selfish lying pigs!
Thanks so much Nicole for your research on this mole of an analysist. I knew she was a phony when she was on the McLaughlin Group claiming that the reason for the high gas prices, over $4 a gallon, was due not to speculators but the laws of supply and demand. Now that the gas prices have dropped by more than half, by her logic, the demand for this inelastic product has also tanked by more than half. I had a strange feeling something was not right about her. Now I know why.
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