Nothing like kowtowing to the fear-mongers on the other side, who will only use this move to prove you're weak and a flip-flopper:
President Obama's advisers are nearing a recommendation that Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, be prosecuted in a military tribunal, administration officials said, a step that would reverse Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr.'s plan to try him in civilian court in New York City.
The president's advisers feel increasingly hemmed in by bipartisan opposition to a federal trial in New York and demands, mainly from Republicans, that Mohammed and his accused co-conspirators remain under military jurisdiction, officials said. While Obama has favored trying some terrorism suspects in civilian courts as a symbol of U.S. commitment to the rule of law, critics have said military tribunals are the appropriate venue for those accused of attacking the United States.
If Obama accepts the likely recommendation of his advisers, the White House may be able to secure from Congress the funding and legal authority it needs to close the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and replace it with a facility within the United States. The administration has failed to meet a self-imposed one-year deadline to close Guantanamo.
The "bipartisan" buzzword comes from the inclusion of Blanche "How do we pushback on members of our own party?" Lincoln and James Webb. Interesting that the frightened bunny contingent pulls more weight than those of us who want to see the US uphold our ideals and laws and don't want to submit to the fear that the terrorists seek.
As would be expected, .the ACLU is very unhappy about this possible reversal:
According to the American Civil Liberties Union, this regrettable reversal under political pressure will strike a blow to American values and the rule of law and undermine America’s credibility.
There have been over 300 terrorism-related convictions in the federal courts, while there have been only three in the military commissions, two resulting in sentences of less than a year.
The following can be attributed to Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU:
“If this stunning reversal comes to pass, President Obama will deal a death blow to his own Justice Department, not to mention American values.
“If the president flip-flops and retreats to the Bush military commissions, he will betray his campaign promise to restore the rule of law, demonstrate that his principles are up for grabs and lose all credibility with Americans who care about justice and the rule of law.
“Even with recent improvements, the military commissions system is incapable of handling complicated terrorism cases and achieving reliable results. President Obama must not cave in to political pressure and fear-mongering. He should hold firm and keep these prosecutions in federal court, where they belong.”
I suspect the motivation behind this is to quell the grumblings of organizations like Keep America Safe and Republicans eager to paint the President as soft on terrorism or somehow sympathetic to them, but as Glenn Greenwald points out, this action isn't going to quiet them, but embolden them even more:
For years, Democrats have failed to grasp the fact that they are perceived as "weak" not because of any specific policies, but because they are perceived -- rightly -- to believe in nothing (or at least nothing that they claim to believe). It is hard to imagine any act that could more strongly bolster that perception than to watch Barack Obama -- yet again -- scamper away from his own claimed principles all because the GOP is saying some mean things about him.
FOX wins!
Obama as FOX news contributor in 3, 2, 1...
Just goes to show even a blind squirrel occasionally finds the nut.
Does this move make Liz Cheney Deputy Assistant Attorney General? Does she now have a red phone in holders office so she can tell him when she doesn't approve of a move he makes.
Its like the Bush administration never left. We still have Cheney calling the shots.
lizzie is calling the shots
---Not one utterance that comes out of he mouth is the truth or has merit! Why do people watch /report on this crap...?
Small but vocal audience and the root problem causing the violence in the USA...
Most of my legal eagle friends say it should be in US Court not military because they tried 3 and have let 2 of them out ..Problem is that the costs are horrid...
what the BFD is about trying KSM in a civilian court. I mean, seriously, what's the objection? Didn't we try McVeigh in a civilian court? And Jeffrey Dahmer? And John Wayne Gacy? I honestly don't understand what the objection to this is. Can someone splain it to me?
It's part of their fear mongering
McVeigh, Dahmer and Gacy worked pretty much alone or with friends, it wasn't some large organized attack.
Individuals can commit acts of terrorism, but the the boogyman in this country is the boogymen.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm sure the court was sooo worried when Dahmer show up to the first day of court with a fork and spoon.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the fear is that by giving KSM a fair trial, his cohorts will launch more attacks? Is that what you're suggesting? But if that's the case, wouldn't holding him indefinitely WITHOUT a fair trial also inspire attacks? Besides, presumably the military trial will be fair; won't that inspire attacks?
I mean, why doesn't Obama just grow some motherfucking balls and attack this fear mongering bullshit with some basic fourth fucking grade common motherfucking sense?
Shit this pisses me off.
such a good old roman word
ksm and his buddies will want to launch attacks no matter what, unlees they have had a come to jesus moment, which i seriously doubt
Whose Jesus?
Whose?
long as i got my plastic jesus,
a sittin' on the dashboard of my car.
that one i guess, i got my mind right, boss, i got my mind right..
Sat, 03/06/2010 - 09:29 — curtilingus
Whose Jesus?
Whose?
_________________________________________
Thomas Jefferson's.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Yeah that's pretty much it.
It's like in those Dirty Harry movies where a witness is killed enroute to a trial, or a prisoner escapes.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
could be all over this, need to check the timeline, but we were pumping money and stingers to the mujahadeen during the soviet war in afghanistan.
that makes sense. They are afraid of what might actually be exposed during the trial so they are making up this fear mongering bullshit to cover up their real concerns.
This country is fucked.
Okay good theory. But you have to wonder if Obama and Holder knew the CIA would be exposed, and put on the possibility NY civil trials as a show to appease their progressive base.
Don't think that this shit isn't choreographed between the two parties. Much like the news is produced for their wow moments, these guys are probably acting out a script.
I keep having these gut reactions, kind of like getting pissed when the Cubs lose again. Then I go, "wait. It's just a bunch of millionaires playing a kids' game for their billionaire corporate wellfare bosses, so who gives a shit." But I was born and raised in late 20th century America, so the myth of fairness is deeply ingrained, just like big tits & beer. Must. Overcome. Indoctrination.
My mother's tits just had milk.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I heard late it life it turns to Jack Daniels.
So you want to suck on ann coulter
If you can find her tits?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Sure.
I wouldn't kick him out of bed.
with her steel teeth.
Oh my gosh. How backwards we have it. This is what is called "learned helplessness". We are taught that our natural reactions to corruption and greed are our own fault - that we bought into a fantasy of our own making and failed to see how the world really works. We weren't "man" or "woman" enough to "handle the truth".
This propaganda is sickening, and appears to work on even the smartest among us. It is THOSE IN POWER who were WEAK, took the EASY WAY out, and SOLD THEMSELVES for PETTY POWER and money.
I'm sorry, but cynicism is pathetic. It's stupidity collapsing in on itself and it only helps the establishment get stronger. You need to find ways to channel your anger for productive purposes.
.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
so that when they turn their back on you,
you get the chance to put the knife in...
remember saddam was our buddy when it served our purpose.
hell, there are pictures of darth cheney shaking hands with the taliban when he thought we could get some petro products from them, the pipeline deal or something of that nature.
They's gots _special_ powers. Ain't cha been watch'n FOX?
Besides, 'merican justice is so gall-danged liberal, one a them "ethnic" New York jury'd have him free and collect'n welfare 'n drivin' a Cadillac outside a a few months. Ain't that right, Glenn Beck?
That is why the AG knows that he cannot get a conviction in the US. They violated KSM's rights, and any judge woud HAVE to throw the case out.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
This is hilarious...the big, old, fat circus elephant is afraid of the little tiny mousey in the house. Good going Holder. Show the scardy-cat elephants as they are. "It's too much for us to take...in our own house....call the military to prosecute... It costs billions!" Shat-up. The military only, successfully, prosecuted 3 terrorists where the court system SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTED AND IMPRISONED 200. Give it to 'em Holder. Shove their fat ass, sissified trunks into their own pee. These elephants ain't what they say they are...they are circus people.
Why don't these noobs do what they did after they panicked their portion of the electorate over Obama giving a speech to school kids to work hard in school?
When it was nothing like what they expected, they didn't say, "Okay, my bad..." it was more like crowing, "See we forced him to change his speech!!!"
Did Obama ever promise civilian trials or just say he'd look into it?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Next they will renege on the deal to close Guantanomo. Hey Obama there's a quarter on the sidewalk.
Well that's part of the report. Guantanomo is where the Military Tribunals would be held. So it will stay open as long as we half to fight terrorists. Kinda like a court in a box.
Maybe we can sub-contract Blackwater's legal services division to handle these trials which are obviously too complicated for our government.
Do you want fries with that?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
this trial would be illegal anywhere but in a civilian court.
here we go again ------ until this country deals with rule of law issues we have nothing to believe in, and nothing to protect we the people from the depradations of our government.
corporations have civil rights, people not so much.
now, how do i incorporate myself?
geez, i don't even want to say president obama, lets settle on mister, does he really not realize most of the public supports him, or at least used to?
the president is "to take care that the laws be faithfully executed"
yeah right, lets check with cheney.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklu9zyFlv4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
got to check that out
it was so great in "heat of the night" when he slapped the plantation man right back, great day in hollywood history.
Don't kid yourself, this has nothing to do with that shrieking harpy.
If the cases are built on torture, then all the "evidence" drawn that way will be tossed out, and the case likely dismissed, even if the court thinks they're guilty as sin.
And it could create an evidentiary trail to put certain member of booshco in the dock.
But booshco will say their concern is with the poor wittle contractee or enlistee who simply did what they thought best, and quibble over definitions of terminology.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
good point
thing is they build such bloody good cameras.
course all the tapes have been destroyed, or so they say.
Yes and no...
But it cost me $150.00 an hour.
Now that hurt...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Look the wealthy in NYC do not want their commute messed up and they do no want to pay for the US proving we can try a single terrorist in our federal courts to prove a point to the rest of the world (as BC did in 1993). It's too expensive and too much of an inconvenience for the Dems wealthy donors to allow the country to live-up to its judicial ideals. So, we will not live-up to our ideals of justice but will continue to secure the Dems lips to the fannies of the wealthy to maintain huge campaign contributions and secure power with election wins. There's nothing more too it. Actually it's very pure when you think about it. And the AG? He's just another compromised yes man who's "judicial" decisions are polluted by politics. Like the last guy. Nothing more to see here folks.
That place is a freakin' ghost town.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2oXzrnti4
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Wiretaps, refusal to prosecute Bush crimes, abandonment of single payer, and now this. It looks like the Obama administration has considered reversing its decision to lead the country.
Is that BushCo labeled the 9/11 attack as a terrorist act by terrorist states, which is how they justified the Iraq war.
By moving this trial to a military tribunal, the Obama administration is concurring with Bush on that principle. And that's really, really bad news.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
"Is that BushCo labeled the 9/11 attack as a terrorist act by terrorist states, which is how they justified the Iraq war."
That's weird. Saudi Arabia attacked us that day.
But that's probably neither here nor there.
Please excuse bad grammar and typo above.
doesn't matter where the trial takes place. Either way the plaintiff and the Judge/court represent the "government" which means that there is a conflict of interest and he can't get a fair hearing.
Yet Again Obama shows he is spineless.
Spineless or chocked full of Republican ideas and lobbyist influences?
Spineless guys don't make it to the presidency. Guys who go with the game plan do.
... there will always be "damsels with swelling breasts" waiting for them. Surah an-Naba' (78:33)
"They are black-eyed virgins ready for you" (7:18)
PS. I wonder what the Women get for blowing themselves up? :-/
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Here's what the women get.
♥
Study the symptoms not the virus...
It does not matter what they do... New
Sat, 03/06/2010 - 09:54 — Truth_Critic
... there will always be "damsels with swelling breasts" waiting for them. Surah an-Naba' (78:33)
__________________________________________________________________
So stop slapping them around...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Saucy MAMMA!
Study the symptoms not the virus...
When will Obama and his misAdvisors wake up to the fact that they are dealing with terrorist using fear to change the behavior of others. And these terrorist are different, because when you actually give them what they fearmonger for, they use that as a sign that you are weak and not worthy of leading, so the country should elect their side to lead.
And if in fact this is being used as a way to appease the right in order to gain some bipartisan support for anyting, this administration needs to WAKE THE F UP.
In a civilian court, the very first motion I would make to dismiss is on the grounds that the defendant wasn't arraigned, not inadvertently, but because defendant's arraignment required a change of presidents.
Then, there is that pesky right to counsel before questioning. Was KSM's attorney there while he was being waterboarded, telling him all the time that he wasn't actually drowning?
Having this trial in civilian court would have been a threat to all of us, a constitutional threat. There would have to be new precedents set eroding constitutional protections in order for the government to prevail. Anyone trust a judiciary appointed by this corporate owned government to not make such new precedents?
The KSM case is a red herring. Instead look at this case.
This is a U.S. citizen being held in Manhattan, that has not been arraigned. I'm sure there are two sides to the story, but it is this case that needs more scrutiny with respect to adherence to the constitution.
I have heard this argument made before ,i.e., that in order to convict KSM in Fed court we would have to set all sorts of unconstitutional precedent that may very well be turned on us in the future. This argument has merit. And I agree I do not trust this whore government any further than I could throw an elephant. Do you believe Holder would have planned to prosecute in open court a case that would require such unconstitutional precedent? Or would the unconstitutional precedent be set in closed session?
;)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
I really don't know. I see nothing good happening out of this. I hope KSM's case is moved out of the Federal courts, because of the constitutions aspects.
But read the other case. It's a two page piece. I think what's happening there is much more important, especially, since it involves a US citizen imprisoned in NY.
"Constitutionally protected statements, beliefs and associations can now become a crime. Dissidents, even those who break no laws, can be stripped of their rights and imprisoned without due process. ... The state can detain and prosecute people not for what they have done, or even for what they are planning to do, but for holding religious or political beliefs that the state deems seditious."
I recall Bill O'Reilly saying that, with respect to Iraq, that people should be supporting the president in a "time of war", and if they couldn't, then they should just shut up. I heard the sedition word tossed around with respect to Iraq war opponents. It's the case currently under the radar we need to be concerned about.
. . . based on whether or not he's guaranteed a win.
Well, he can, but then he's no better than a third rate dictator of a banana republic putting on a show trial.
And he knows this. At least I'm pretty sure a constitutional scholar would be aware of Magna Carta.
Discarding these rights sets a far worse precedent than any District Court could. Additionally, even Bush appointed judges have been kicking the government's butt in cases like Hamdan and Boumadine.
And thanks for the link.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
The question is jurisdiction. Are the military tribunals constitutional, and do they have concurrent jurisdiction, along with the federal courts? Does a precedent have to be set in order for the tribunals to have jurisdiction?
I really don't have the answers to that, but it would seem that if KSM was to be tried in civilian court, then he would have the constitutional protections afforded to, say, a bank robber.
I don't think an accused bank robber could be convicted if dealt with in a similar manner as KSM. The courts have ruled repeatedly that dismissal with prejudice is the only possible remedy to prevent the government from violating defendants rights.
Of course, I look at this case through the tint of my own assumptions. While many view terrorism as the primary security threat, I do not. I view totalitarianism, and a drift towards fascism as the primary threat. And I view this threat coming from the right. Last thing I want to see is some judicial enablers through the precedents that would be necessary to convict KSM.
And Hamdan recently settled any question of jurisdiction.
Whether or not a defendant can be convicted is completely irrelevant in any just system. Unless of course, it's nothing more than a show trial.
There is precedent for military tribunals: on the battlefield when convening a full trial or even a full court martial is impractical or impossible.
But here, none of those excuses apply. There is no "battlefield" and we've held these people for years - some near a decade.
Obama appears to be trying to convict people he is afraid would be acquitted if given a fair trial. That's as slimy as Bush except Obama doesn't even have the plausible excuse of ignorance. That's even slimier.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commiss...
“The United States Military Commissions Act of 2006[1], also known as HR-6166, was an Act of Congress[2] signed by President George W. Bush on October 17, 2006. Drafted in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision on Hamdan v. Rumsfeld,[3] the Act's stated purpose was "To authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposes."”
Looks like they tried to legislate around Hamdan. I don't know if it'll hold up.
. . . of Bush, Cheney & Ilk?
Just trying to find that silver lining . . . . :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
A prosecution could be attempted, but, I believe Obama has ruled prosecution off the table. They could possibly be tried from abroad. I believe the Iraq war violated international law, so they are responsible for the Iraqi deaths. Between the Iraqi war, Abi Ghraib, the use of phosphor in Fallujah, I think they could be prosecuted as war criminals.
Doubt it'll ever happen. Generally war criminal charges are directed at those who lose their war.
But not always.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Hard to imagine darth chaney dress like a broad...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
an official announcement from the WH or the DOJ on this? First we get Lizard coming out with an ad critisizing the Attorneys representing the gitmo detainees and now thw MSM is talking about the WH changing the system in which they should be prosecuted. This may be just more muddying of the waters or just a life raft for Lizard. I thnk I will wait for more information.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/11/15/1443...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
In return Obama gets funding and backing for closing Gitmo.
Still, though, I agree that the perception is one of flip flopping and kowtowing and in this country, perception trumps reality every time.
A majority of this case and the 9/11 commission report is based on torture. I don't see how any of this is credible evidence. We've never even successfully pursued Bin Laden or convicted a suspect in the Anthrax attacks. We've got a lot of work to do. I hope the media and the justice department are up for it.
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
Isn't Megyn Kelly the actress who plays a dumb blonde on their news show parody sitcom? I hear it's not very funny.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
... give a damn what we do with the ones we have. I believe they have long ago written them off, and they are moving forward into Yemen and other places.
It is only us who are mired in the past, stuck with the regressive mindset advocated by these non-progressing repugs.
If you need funds to pay for essentials, you have a revenue problem
If you need funds to pay for frivolity, you have a spending problem
... you must acquit?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Good. I say do it. And, hopefully, when KSM is acquitted and/or released from prison within days as has happened with all but one (1) Guantanamo detainee and accused terrorist who has been tried in military tribunals vs our civil court system, I want mainstream media to track his whereabouts and cover how much he is enjoying his freedom around the world every day of every election season for the rest of his life with reminders of what Republican activism achieved in this debate for several generations thereafter.
Like the "re-election" of George W. Bush in 2004, sometimes the American people downright demand to be taught a hard lesson for standing by and going along with whatever looney political demagogurey the Right and their longtime mainstream media companions have cooked up.
This looks like another one of those times.
If a civil trial was held the accused would have a right to counsel.
Yes, make that good, red blooded American lawyers.
Post trial how do you think these stalwart and honest upholders of the law be treated?
As terrorist tainted and possible enemies of the state, that's how.
Imagine if they actually won an acquittal and KSM walked free?
They would be shunned forever, their names used to scare children at bedtime.
They would have to take up residence abroad under an assumed name, grow a beard and develop an alcohol dependency.
Not to mention impugning the good name and reputation of lawyers everywhere.
Please, won't someone think of the lawyers.
been tried in civilian courts?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
but these aren't POWs or war criminals either, as were the Nazis. So it's a false equivalency.
me-oww!
For which country and in whose uniform did KSM wage his glorious "war" against America? He had connections with, among others, Kuwait, The Philippines, Qatar, Pakistan and North Carolina.
I just want to make sure we start dropping bombs in the right location of his war headquarters.
btw, should organized crime figures of the past have been tried in military tribunals?
...the wagons to defend the president if he gives in on this.
John Cole, faux Democrat at Balloon Juice, continues to believe, inexplicably, that it is wrong to voice objections before Obama has made a decision. Apparently, Cole thinks that the way to deal with the president of one's own party when he is caving in on human rights principles, or hypocritically expanding executive power (after claiming he opposed those powers when they were held by Bush) is to allow him to make the decision, explain all the reasons why it isn't as bad as it seems, accuse progressives of being worrywarts and hankie wringers, and then sit back and wait for history to judge.
I can't fathom the mindset that opposes voicing strenuous objections before a disastrous decision is made, but it certainly is the MO of Cole and many of his followers at Balloon Juice. After all, if you support a president, doesn't it make sense to help him make the right decisions? For my part, I want to support Obama and be proud to have him as president. I want him to succeed. But not as an enabler for Right Wing causes.
Obama has shown himself to be very malleable. Unfortunately, most of his flexibility seems to favor screwing his base and doing the bidding of the Right Wing. I can't imagine how Obama thinks that will ever help him. He's not a stupid man; naive maybe, but not stupid. Surely he knows by now that no matter what he does the Right is going to oppose him. The more he gives in, the less respect they have for him, and the more likely it is that they will demand concessions on everything in the future. But they're going to hate him no matter what he does. He still doesn't seem to have realized that.
I'm sure Cole would argue that it's only a certain kind of objections that he opposes, but that isn't his record. Over the past year, he's tied himself in knots criticizing progressives and defending Obama to the point where he just looks silly.
In his one concession to reality, Cole says it all at the top of the Balloon Juice homepage: "Consistently Wrong Since 2002"
I guess that just refers to his record as a blogger. Since Cole is a recent "convert" to the Democratic Party and was a lifelong Republican (apparently) before sometime after the 2004 elections, I'd say he could probably safely change to: "Consistently Wrong...Period"
In fairness to Cole, I think he did the right thing in leaving the Republican Party because unlike so many he was astute enough to realize that the his Party had morphed into a vile collection of idiots, bigots, hypocrites, and anti-democratic thugs. He was right to leave the GOP, but he really should have become an Independent, not a Democrat. There he would stand out, among all the Teabaggers, Birthers, etc. as a relatively sane voice. As a Democrat, he gives support to some of the Party's least progressive elements. John's not a bad person, but he is hopelessly confused. Maybe the same can be said of Obama.
How long is it going to take you to realise that Obama is neocon?
That's all, sheesch. This admin is completely adrift. Not a clue.
Shifting anti-terror from the DoD to the DoJ would mean billions of dollars thaken away from the military industrial complex. That's what's behind this whole thing. Greed as always.
viable difference between the way the Dems in Congress backtrack and the way Obama backtracks.What about all those green jobs we`ve heard about?Is everyone afraid of the right wing smear/scare-mobile? Damn this is sickening.
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