Swiss Government Votes To Ban Minarets
By Nicole Belle Tuesday Dec 01, 2009 6:00pm
Forgive me for going Godwin-esque from the get-go, but in reading this article, I couldn't help but think of Europe in the 1920's, with the word "Muslim" replacing "Juden":
Switzerland approved Sunday a ban on new minarets from being built, with the referendum initiated by far-right politicians picking up strong support.
To the dismay of the Muslim minority here, some 57.5 percent of voters who cast ballots and 22 out of 26 cantons voted to ban the towers or turrets attached on mosques from where Muslims are called to prayer.
Far-right politicians across Europe celebrated the results, while the Swiss government sought to assure the Muslim minority that a ban on minarets was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture."[..]
They said that the minarets -- of which Switzerland has just four -- were not architectural features with religious characteristics, but symbolised a "political-religious claim to power, which challenges fundamental rights."
Having won a double majority on turnout of 53 percent, the initiative will now be inscribed in the country's constitution.
"The Federal Council (government) respects this decision. Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted," said the government, which had firmly opposed the ban, in a statement.[..]
Switzerland has had an uneasy relationship with its Muslim population, which makes up some five percent of its population of 7.5 million people. Islam is the second largest religion here after Christianity.[..]
"The most painful for us is not the minaret ban, but the symbol sent by this vote. Muslims do not feel accepted as a religious community," said Farhad Afshar, who heads the Coordination of Islamic Organisations in Switzerland.
The Conference of Swiss Bishops also criticised the result, saying that it "heightens the problems of cohabitation between religions and cultures."
It's a little disconcerting to me that memories in Europe could be so short as to forget another generation--not that long ago--when this kind of of fear-based bigotry became institutionalized. And sadly, with the success of this Swiss ban, conservatives in the Netherlands are considering a similar ban.
David Neiwert has written about this institutionalized fear of the other, and if I may be so lazy as to co-opt his (and Orcinus blogging partner Sara Robinson's) breakdown of the construct to make some group the feared "Other". Read and see how familiar this sounds:
1. Untrustworthy, unethical with money, prone to cheat in business dealings;
2. Clannish and unwilling to assimilate into the larger culture;
3. No respect at all for the rule of law. The only way to control them
is through brute force;4. Dim-witted, lazy, fit only for physical labor -- but you have to
threaten them to get off their butts, because they won't work otherwise;5. Constitutionally weaker than members of the dominant culture;
6. Complete lack of moral self-control;
7. Bent on world domination. These plans always involve secret conspiracies and special skills known only to the clan;
8. Despite their minority status, they are thought to have far more
power than their numbers, and an inordinate influence over the running
of the country;9. Heirs to an inhumanly bloody history that cannot be forgiven, and
which they have never moved past (they're "bloodthirsty savages" with
no redeeming qualities); and which never created anything meaningful
in the way of art, music, science, or architecture (writing them out
of history);10. Congenitally to understand the subtleties of the "superior" race
they live among, and thus forever brutish and inferior;11. Inadequate personal and domestic hygiene (they smell, and their
houses and businesses aren't clean). Carriers of strange diseases that
threaten the dominant culture;12. "Breeding like flies" and attendant fears that they're going to
out-breed the dominant culture (this one will be tossed around
regardless of actual comparative birth rates);13. The men are out-of-control sex fiends who will sexually terrorize
the dominant culture's women if not firmly restrained;14. The women are appropriate targets for sexual abuse by men of the
dominant culture. They probably even enjoy the chance to finally
experience a "real man;"
Take a look at any one of the right wing sites and you'll see variations on these themes over and over. I'm happy that Charles Johnson has started to speak out over the blind hatred and eliminationist rhetoric, although he too is not above wading in those waters when it comes to Muslims.
I think I've said that I come from one big "United Colors of Benetton" family; between adoptions and marriages, we pretty much have members from five continents, six faiths (and lack of faith) and too many cultures to count. And we celebrate them all. I just don't understand this fear of the Other. And I really don't understand it from countries who were smack dab in the middle of Hitler's inhumanity.
UPDATE: I was following this story on a few foreign policy sites and a comment at one struck me and I thought I'd share it:
The sad irony here is that if any mosques should actually cause any concern, it is the ones that don’t have minarets!
I’ve visited the mosque by the train station in Hamburg where the Sept. 11 attacks were planned, the ones in Dewsbury where the July 7 attacks were planned, and the ones in south London frequented by the Operation Crevice plotters. None of them have minarets! The ultra-wahabi-ists don’t go for that sort of frippery.
If they’re actually concerned with anyone’s “dream to conquer the world,” they should be banning bland cinder-block structures with cement floors. (Or Tora Bora caves).








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of the ban.
Are minarets some sort of islamic signpost?
Seems like they are lust variations on the steeple theme.
Unless it's some sort of sir traffic hazard or loocal zoning laws pohibit structures over a certain height, I see no justifiable reason for this, other than more bigotry. Honestly, this sounds like something us Americans would do. Like banning marriage for a certain group of people. It's JUST a freaking building.
And I happen to like the architecture. It's interesting and adds to the scenery. Not like a lot a christian churches I've seen.
thing for the Swiss to do.
And as to you last point, I agree with that too. I've been taking an Art Appreciation class, and the time spent there on Islamic architecture is a real eye-opener. So much beauty, and some of my favorites are from Medieval Spain.
Even before this ban, very few minarets were allowed to be built. The ban won't do much.
Regardless of how many minarets are constructed in any given place...
... The mere "ACT" of banning them sends a blatant message.
The concept, "Never Again" used to mean something.
... to make a cheap point. Classy.
If the Swiss perceive minarets as as symbols for an Islamic claim to supremacy it is due guys like the current Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan who was taken to court for citing this line:
"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..."
Same man who said:"Democracy is like a streetcar. When you come to your stop, you get off."
Comparisons to Germany in the thirties are just plain silly. Get this into your heads: Islam is not a race but a world view, mostly a peaceful one but some of its claims are directly opposed to democracy and orthodox Muslim theology clearly refuses to give them up.
This is a popular vote, not a government decision. It was only supported by one political party, the discussion being fuelled by the current hostage taking of two Swiss citizens by the Libyan government.
Wonder what the outcome would be in other countries if they had the referendum possibilty.
Next thing you know they'll ban towel heads.
I don't blame any rational, secular society for attempting to slow or stop the spread of Islam.
Take a good look at the Islamic world. It's a place of anger, suicide bombers, burkas, discrimination, backwardness, intolerance and rioting over cartoons.
By the way, what do you think the policy in Saudi Arabia is regarding non-Muslim religious practices? How many Christian, Jewish or Buddist religious houses of worship are there in that country?
You need one of these.
Spot on!
*high fives*
It's NOT rational. It's unthinking gibbering panic. By your lights, we should be outlawing Christian churches, because a small and visible segment of that population is angry, prone to violence, discriminatory, backwards (they don't like science, after all), intolerant, and rallying behind some kook named Beck.
This fear of the 'other' isn't that different than any other instance. It's the fear of the Jews. It's the fear of the Chinese - at once shiftless, lazy, no-good for anything but slop labor and laundry ... but somehow they're going to take away the jobs of hard-working honest Americans, indoctrinate our children into their foreign ways, steal our women, and so on.
The Chinese Exclusion Act. The Japanese Internment. The Red Scare. Lou Dobbs' insane ramblings about Hispanics. Birthers convinced the black guy not only cheated to get the presidency, he's a foreigner. Michelle Malkin afraid that creeping Islam is going to strike and she'll wake up in a burqa.
The truth is, none of the three major religions have distinguished themselves in the Middle East. We've been fighting and warring since Abraham threw Hagar out of his tent. Millennia of violence in the name of God.
He must be SO proud of us. (/SNARK)
and yet you're expecting rational results? The Swiss inherited their Christian baggage, it doesn't surprise me they don't want baggage from another religion on top of it. One is more than enough for a nation.
Does that apply for America as well?
America is where the religions of the world go to really let it all hang out.
On the one hand we're cursed with too much religion. On the other hand, the competition, yet desire for secular government, and stronger free speech rights than other countries, I think balances it out.
That said, I am partial to a return to belief in the obvious one true god, Thor.
...that Muslims have been living in Switzerland for a very long time, right?
They are the second most popular religion in the country.
is incredible.
and, comparing a theocracy to a democracy is disingenuous at best... but as far as your "comparison" goes, why not talk about Ethiopia, Morocco, Pakistan, etc.?
Oooops!
They don't fit your preconceived notions, kick them to the curb!
Yes, let's talk about Pakistan and their cartoon rioters. They rioted and killed over cartoons. That's just what any rational society wants to encourage.
Or the sound of Arabic chants wailing over the loudspeakers five times a day. Who wouldn't want that?
Islam has always been a religion rooted in violence, from day one.
Does this mean all muslims are violent terrorists? Of course not. It does mean that large segments of the population of Islam are totally, violently intolerant of any other beliefs.
Just ask the family of Mr. Theo Van Gogh.
about christians.
Would you like that?
Ask any group presecuted by Christians. Go on, there's LOTS to choose from.
It's already been established that the minarets are not outfitted with loudspeakers. It wasn't done for a noise nuisance. It was done because conservative politicians (how charming that you agree with their hatred and bigotry) thought they symbolized a desire to take over the country.
Your knowledge of Islam appears to come from the right wing similarly. It's ALWAYS been a religion of violence. Yeah, that damn Muslim Spanish Inquisition.
You can point to some acts of (admittedly indefensible) violence by Muslims, but I can point just as easily to Eric Rudolph and the killer of Dr. Tiller as Christian terrorists.
Own your bigotry. You would have been at home in the SS with such an irrational fear of someone who doesn't share your faith. Look at David's list again.
Eric Prince...
I agree, Xtians are pretty bad, we shouldn't tolerate it. Muslims are even worse they enslave entire half of society, stone women to death for being raped, in a civilized society we shouldn't tolerate that either, most muslims in Europe believe in Sharia law superseding national laws. You seem to be pretty happy tolerating it, your comparison of this issue TRIVIALIZES the holocaust, and with all due respect, the only person who comes off as ignorant is yourself.
Those of us who grew out of santa, and then the invisible space spirit see little difference between evangelicals, muslims and those that are willing to defend their right to practice violence, hatred, homophobia, and sexual slavery on other people. It's sad when it's other liberals keeping this plague of irrationality alive.
Typical.
First you bring up Saudi Arabia, a theocracy, and posit the question, "lol, zomg! wut about Saudi? Them don't let uther religuns make church, just liek Switzy!" and then you completely discard that part of your "thesis" when it is pointed out to be so full of holes it's laughable.
Islam is as (or almost as) violent as Christianity.
Both are (sort of / a lot / not at all) more violent than Buddhism.
They are all based in violence, of one sort or another.
Religion is a political beast, used to harness and exploit a spiritual impulse.
You just don't like the other "football" team.
Tombo Yes, let's talk about Pakistan and their cartoon rioters.
A crowd whipped up by "holy men", similar to right-wing Christians tea-bagging with swastikas and urged on by Palin and Bachmann. Like that you mean? Not unique to the Middle East.
You are a walking example of Neiwert's list.
Congratulations.
I bet you would have LOVED being in Germany in the 1930s.
I don't blame any rational, secular society for attempting to slow or stop the spread of religion.
How's that fer ya?
I'm almost tempted to agree with you but I just can't bring myself to that. The government really shouldn't be intruding at all. If people want to believe fairy tales that's fine with me. Not my business.
I was responding to this:
If the Shoe Fits:
Tue, 12/01/2009 - 18:29 — Tombo
I don't blame any rational, secular society for attempting to slow or stop the spread of Islam.
which I find to be a very shallow statement
"I just don't understand this fear of the Other."
Fear is a primal emotion and not one prone to bring about thoughtful actions.
Fear is a very simple way to control people.
I'm afraid of phallic symbols...
Me too, depending on who is wearing it. . .
lol
They're war profiteers, after all.
True.
They've been riding the Swede's progressive cred for too long.
Russia Today covers the story and visits the head of the Swiss political party responsible for promoting the ban and putting it on the ballot.
Swissed-off: Outrage as 'Minaret ban' scandal flares up
It was not the Swiss government who voted for this. It was a popular referendum. And seeing that referendums in Switzerland are binding, this means it will get into effect. It could be that this rule is against European rules.
A motion of the same initiative in the Netherlands was issued by the SGP. This is a marginal fundamental Christian party which also wants to abolish sattelite dishes on buildings. (These dishes are predominantly used by the muslim population in order to recieve signals from the middle east and Morocco.) The motion was supported by the PVV of Geert Wilders but it was rejected by the Tweede kamer (= Dutch House of representatives.)
So in other words; this will not happen in the Netherlands.
I think the word Government has now gone out on our feed and it would do all sorts of weird things to the linkbacks to remove it.
But your point is a good one.
That article in which you link about the Dutch initiative is quite wrong. As it says it was Geert Wilders who made the initiative. He did support it but it was not his initiative. That really was done by the SGP.
Dutch link:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5463351/__...
great link, as long as you can read Dutch. And it's de telegraaf. :s
Most of you, if not all, cannot read Dutch but I think it shouldn't be left out.
Translation. (Bear with me, I'm a bit rusty wehn it comes to translating this stuff.P)
It was not said in the article that the PVV supported this motion but in other media it was mentioned.
i can read Dutch btw, just pointing out that most here can't ;)
In Switzerland, popular referenda are binding -- and a hallowed and "popular" tradition. So while not exactly the Swiss government, it's not exactly not the Swiss government either.
if you want to be the expert explaining things to the other commenters, it might help to know that switzerland is not bound by any "european rules".
Switzerland is not an EU member, but is a member of the Council of Europe and as such must abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights (an institution abhorred by bigots all over the continent). The problem is that under Swiss direct democracy, most any issue can be brought up for referendum; initially, implementation is a political issue, not a legal one, which means that there is no Swiss constitutional court that would bar certain issues from being subjected to referendum in the first place. There will now undoubtedly be legal challenges to this law (nominally a mere zoning/construction ordinance) in court, which will ultimately be decided in the ECHR.
As a foreigner living in Switzerland, I think this has been a sad day for the Swiss and their otherwise excellent political system.
but I do think it should be applied to all religions.
By decree, No religious structure may exceed one foot in elevation.
the use of minarets, as loud speakers to call to prayer.
I have no problem with this ban.
now, about those pesky bells...
I like my distant bells near my house. They don't make me believe in anything but provide a pleasant backdrop.
We also have an air raid siren go off every day at noon, monday through friday. Not sure which religion that is.
I never liked the one-block-away-from-my-apartment-bells that rang every hour from six am to 2 pm every Sunday while I was nursing a hangover.
However, the gospel group that church had was rather incredible.
I live about a 10 minute walk away from a Catholic church. I like the sounds of the bells, and at least they stop them once it gets quite late.
I live even closer to a church and Sunday morning having a hangover i really can not appreciate those bells.
be very rough on someone who does. :P
Man: I wish those bloody bells would stop.
Wife: Oh, it's quite nice dear, it's Sunday, it's the church.
Man: What about us atheists? Why should we 'ave to listen to that sectarian turmoil?
Wife: You're a lapsed atheist, dear.
Man: The principle's the same. Bleeding C-of-E. The Mohmedans don't come 'round here wavin' bells at us! We don't get Buddhists playing bagpipes in our bathroom! Or Hindus harmonizing in the hall! The Shintuists don't come here shattering sheet glass in the shithouse, shouting slogans...
Wife: All right, don't practice your alliteration on me.
Man: Anyway, when I get my membership card and blazer badge back from the League of Agnostics, I shall urge the executive to lodge a protest against that religious racket! Pass the butter knife!
Wife: WHAT??
Man: PASS THE BUTTER KNIFE!! THANK YOU! IF ONLY WE HAD SOME KIND OF MISSILE!
Wife: 'OLD ON, I'LL CLOSE THE WINDOW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8oqs_MxnJE
They are just banning the towers that broadcast calls for prayer throughout the neighborhood five times per day. Not mosques, or Muslims going to pray without a big loud speaker calling them in.
I doubt many of you would want any sort of loud speaker broadcasting any sort of announcement through your neighborhood five times a day (and very early a.m.) seven days a week either.
If the local fundy church set up such a speaker, and blasted out calls to Jesus 35 times per week, would you be okay with that being shut down? Disturbing the peace.
for bigotry, but it doesn't fly.
I refer you to the original article:
Now go back to David's #7 on the list.
And for the record, I hear the bells from a Lutheran Church, a Catholic Church and the UC Berkeley belltower. Are they all similarly disturbing the peace?
Or maybe you think it's only appropriate to be tolerant of some noises.
even if it doesn't happen 5 times a day. And for sure if it did, more people would have a problem with it.
Unfortunately, minarets and Muslims are being singled out, when actually the lunacy of religion should be more evenly criticized. The solution is better education, secular eduction, secular government, human rights support, free speech including absolute freedom to denigrate ridiculous beliefs (and freedom to believe in ridiculous beliefs). If there is fault here, it's with parents indoctrinating their children with lies about the nature of the universe.
This problem isn't going to be solved by banning minarets, or church bells. Or even by banning religion itself.
Peace can only happen through prayer. All we are saying is give peace a chance five times a day.
With the amount of times you reference living in nazi Germany (which I'm willing to bet you never did) and how often you equate that to this issue, I'm wondering if you are a teabagger, and I'm tempted to click on the flag as innapropriate link. Yes they are similarly disturbing the peace. You are quite happy with painting people you disagree with whatever way you like. Most people that disagree with you are probably liberal atheists, but since you have a limited logical resources to have a rational discussion with people on your side of the spectrum, you have chosen to make them into something you dislike (intolerant christians) and choose to debate that.
Well you are preaching to the choir here, but how about a little intolerance of intolerance for once. The people you are defending murder women who are raped, men who are gay, directors who offend them, wrap the women of their culture in shame, sell their daughters like cattle, and threaten the life of anyone who disparages them for this. Enjoy your "team", but pretending you are on the side of tolerance, my stomach can't take it...
"Not mosques, or Muslims going to pray without a big loud speaker calling them in."
That doesn't happen in Europe. No calling for prayer by mosques. Church bells on the other hand, a lot.
It's fascinating how the wingnuts are celebrating this as a victory - a measure to prevent european muslims from oppressing european jews! Pam Atlas Geller, for example. She actually sees this as a law that will help prevent genocide against jews in Swizerland(!)
Pam:
The Swiss get it. Are the Jews going to shuffle onto the trains yet again? Not me. No way.
They are just as crazy as the people in this thread comparing this issue to nazi Germany. Which is VERY, in case you are wondering.
to prayer, no minarets, etc. The building used to be a fraternal club, and the only way you could tell it's a mosque is the Arabic writing at the door and (from 9/11 up till the beginning of the Iraq war), the American flag over the Arabic writing.
"The building used to be a fraternal club"
Those are even more scary - I think minarettes are good so we know where they are. (/snark)
;)
The bans on headscarves or burkas?
How about tubans and beards?
What about on Halloween?
But this was such a blatant example of the institutional demonization of a group that I had to write about it.
with institutionalized rape and mutilation of women, institutionalized intolerance of other religions, secular government, and human rights.
This was a vote about minarets, you're extrapolating it to the entire group. There's no evidence that the Swiss are. All we know based on the cited stories, is the Swiss didn't want more minarets in their country. They didn't ban Islam. They didn't bad mosques. They didn't ban any of their ridiculous beliefs either.
Yes, they are likely being hypocritical for not also banning church bells. But guess what, that's called nationalism. And the Swiss have a national culture. It is normal for nationals to reject what they perceive as a camel's nose coming into their tent. Where are the flag wavers in this forum? They should understand nationalism.
There are discrete sects that do those things.
But part of my family are practicing Muslims and so far, I've been able to escape mutilation and rape. I'm pretty sure there's not a huge amount of those things happening in Switzerland either. And as I said, I have a lot of other faiths in my family as well and we're all pretty tolerant of each other. So please, spare me the ignorant and hate-filled broadbrush about Muslims in Switzerland bringing this on themselves.
And nationalism has nothing to do with religion. These are Swiss citizens too. Muslims have been in Switzerland for a very long time.
You brought up the issue of what is institutionalized. And Islam, far more than other religions today, in practice, institutionalizes, encourages, rewards fear and hatred. That it does not have to be this way, is not the point. Islam has problems, and these are problems that Islam needs to figure out for itself.
In that sense, I don't agree with the ban. But stating a ban on minarets is like a call to Nazi genocide of Jews, with your use of the word "Juden" is absurd to the point it's scandalous. It's an overreaction. It's knee-jerk. It's unwarranted. And you're giving a pass to the bigotry of Islam when it's finding some slight rejection in a secular, modern world.
Oh big snort to that.
You have clearly not spent time in evangelical churches.
My next door neighbor's daughter--who is enrolled in an evangelical Christian school--proudly told me once that she told her teacher during mandatory Bible study that she wasn't going to hate her step-father just because he was Jewish.
The analogy I used is apt. But you're so blinded in your hatred and fear that you don't see yourself saying the EXACT same things Europeans said about Jews 70 years ago.
You're being a complete twit.
1. I have spent time in evangelical churches. You know nothing as you claim clearly I've never been in one. You will find I'm less tolerant of conservative evangelical christianity as I am "al la carte" christianity that is more popular in this country.
2. It's anti-intellectual and anti-academic to extrapolate broad conclusions based on your singular anecdotes as you've now done twice in a row. Please stop, it doesn't help your argument one bit.
3. Your analogy is anti-historical and utterly, hilariously absurd to make a comparison of f'n banned minarets to war crimes. Stupid.
Well, I'd rather be an anecdotal "twit" than a fear-driven, bigoted hatemonger who cannot see how ugly his ignorance has made him.
an argument that O'Reilly has perfected?
and apparently nomoreclintonorbush is quite comfortable sitting on that side of bigotry and ignorance.
he told you to shut up, SERIOUSLY!!!! :p
it's like you women don't know your place in nomore's perfect christian nation!
lol
Hey pete,
nomore is not christian, probably not conservative either. I'm pretty sure he or she is an atheist who believes in secularism.
Apparently you are comfortable being on the side of bigotry and ignorance
http://themoderatevoice.com/43422/hundreds-of...
http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives...
Keep fighting the good fight though. All those that hate gay people, science and women are pulling for you.
I thought it was calling people pinheads, cutting mics and editing interviews?
to shut up when he knows he's lost the arguement, and it's pretty much what nomoreclintonorbush is resorting to now.
What you do is you call Swiss who voted for the ban bigots. And you indirectly call them Nazis. And now you call me a bigot and in the previous post associated me with Nazis also.
This should not be taken seriously. Yours is an emotional reaction. You are engaged in classic propaganda techniques, most notably name-calling. Your article starts out with the name-calling.
The Swiss are not the ones who have this regular occurrence of stoning women to death when they are victims of rape. Islam has far bigger problems to face than Switzerland's minaret ban.
Shut up twit!
"You're being a complete twit." nomore 19:49
to
"You are engaged in classic propaganda techniques, most notably name-calling." nomore 20:05
So are you for or against name calling?
i was making an observation.
twit 1 |twit|
noun informal
a silly or foolish person.
Nicole started the name-calling, without making any compelling observations whatsoever. A charge that Swiss are like Nazi's in the 1920's should ABSOLUTELY appropriately have her observed (or called) a silly or foolish person. Because she has made both silly, and foolish statements. It's that ridiculous and unsupportable to a thinking person.
One would think she'd be more scared of a Swiss, who have not started any kind of wars since the early 1800's, than of a Muslim man holding a rock. It is that ridiculous, what she's asserted.
I get it, when you call someone a name, it's not name calling.
Gotcha.
Look up the definition for "plonker" then, because that what you are. Hey, i'm just making an observation. rly. You are the one ridiculous to think that all the islam is bad and after your little shiny arse.
Fuck off!
You, sir, are a bigot. And so are the frightened Swiss sheep that thought that banning minarets would some how keep Muslims from taking over the country.
and this:
Shows how poor your thinking is.
If this isn't happening in Switzerland, why should it be at issue at all?
Why do the Swiss get to tell Muslims that they can't build minarets, but not keep Christians/Catholics from building steeples with crosses?
See, we can keep playing the name-calling game, and get exactly nowhere. When we delete all the name calling, I will put my arguments against what remains of yours, which is very little because most of what you've done is just name calling.
And I will take my bigotry of people who stone rape victims as a matter of OFFICIAL STATE *and* RELIGIOUS POLICY over your ridiculous assertions, any day of the week.
It hasn't occurred to you that the Swiss have made a statement against Islam's NOTORIOUS social intolerance? That's an assertion, I have no facts. But YOU have *ZERO* facts and credibility for asserting this is the first step toward a Swiss genocide of Muslims.
Instead of perhaps considering alternative views, or even interviewing a pile of Swiss, you're supposedly the journalist, you've resorted to utter conjecture, and used classic propaganda tactics to equate Swiss with nascent Nazis. It's disgustingly absurd, and is prejudiced. Worse than bigotry, dear. Worse because you have pre-judged people, without facts. You've simply made assertions and broadcast them far and wide for others to feed on your prejudice.
One, I NEVER said that the Swiss were planning genocide. I said that this is like the way it was in Europe (see that word?) in the 1930s when antisemitism became more and more institutionalized between states.
Muslims are the new Jews. Get it?
And you, dearie, are painting a peaceful, rather large plurality of the Swiss population as intolerant, stoning rapists with absolutely no facts behind you. Because (and this is a fact that you simply do not seem to be able to internalize) this affects Swiss Muslims. They're not Arabs. They're not Americans Muslims, they're not wahabbists from Iran. They are Swiss citizens who happen to practice Islam as their faith.
Islam is NOT a state and you keep separating them out. THAT is what makes you a bigot. The need to treat ALL Muslims as "the Other".
And I have NEVER postured myself as a journalist. I'm a political blogger on a political blog. I give my opinions, not report. If you are coming here for news reports, you're the one with the problem.
You know what's great about being an a atheist? You can be against intolerance bigotry sexism and racism, and not individual groups of people. That means a rational liberal can fight for the palestinian people's right to their own place, and condemn Israel for it's intolerance, apartheid, racism, murder AND condemn Muslims for their intolerance racism and murder. You see it's the actions we hate, so we don't find ourselves defending BIGOTS. So we don't have to be hypocrites like YOU. We can be real Liberals. You should try our side, rid the world of religion, peacefully, by fighting for secularism, and marginalizing thousand year old belief systems that lead to oppression and murder.
"And I will take my bigotry of people who stone rape victims"
So why don't you? You are a bigot. You've set up your mind that islam is evil, and that's all you see. You do not see the Islamic people that integrated into (western) society and be just citizens.
Of course you do not want to see that, because islam equals evil.
Instead of investing in the good muslims you rather spread fear of that are stupid fuckers!
I'm atheist, I think all religions are a huge problem, a waste of human intellect, and resources. I've stated emphatically they should be legal, but they should be held to standards of international human rights agreements.
Certainly, Christianity has problems. In my view, Islam has more problems. That doesn't make it evil. I never said it was evil. I never said it should be illegal.
Bigot of people who murder others? Yes, absolutely. I don't care what religion they are. That Islam justifies these acts as appropriate, is a stain on Islam. Not on me. Not on the Swiss.
My complaint here is that we are not given anywhere near enough information or facts to be giving Swiss a hard time about this vote. And I find it perverse to call out Swiss who have started no wars in 200 years, and have a long record of positive civil and human rights being compared to an emerging Nazi movement by Nicole Bell. It's disgusting.
"That Islam justifies these acts as appropriate"
They don't you moron! You take the extreme and accuse the whole religion.
Fuck you. i know nice and extremely brilliant Christians, who are very dear to me. I'm an atheist and they never judged me for it.
Do i think that they are fucking reigh wing Christians? no of course not, because they are NOT!!!!!
THAT is just the same as that not all Muslims are extremists.
YOU are fucking disgusting!
Until its leadership appropriately denounce the death penalty for women who are raped or engage in adultery, absolutely I blame the whole religion. In most of these cases, either tacit approval or a direct order from the head of a mosque has occurred in these instances of stoning - from *recent* events in Saudi Arabia, to Bangladesh.
And certainly, not all Muslims believe this, not all mosques. I never said otherwise. Just as not all Christians are psychotic dispensationalists.
But the fact these events continue to happen are problems unique to Islam. This isn't the only example of its widespread (though not absolute) social intolerance.
Ah right, so because there is injustice somewhere in the muslim world makes the Swiss being right? That is fecked up. You are prejudice and do not want to see any other side but your own.
It's not a black and white world you know?
But the Swiss are entitled to their opinion, and their election. And it is democracy after all.
It very well may turn out that this is incompatible with other agreements to which Switzerland is a signatory. That is and should be looked at. And if compelling, then the election overturned in grounds of previous agreements being in force.
I don't have to agree with their logic to support their right to vote on this. And don't find it useful to conclude that they are racist, bigot, or a nascent Nazi state for having voted this way either.
Sure they are. And i'll call them a bunch off fucking wankers, as i'm entitled are.
Two finger salute to Swiss!
Are you typing with your forehead? Your terrible points and awkward sentence structure seem to indicate that you are.
You've expressed so far?
1. Untrustworthy, unethical with money, prone to cheat in business dealings;
2. Clannish and unwilling to assimilate into the larger culture; CHECK
3. No respect at all for the rule of law. The only way to control them is through brute force; CHECK
4. Dim-witted, lazy, fit only for physical labor -- but you have to threaten them to get off their butts, because they won't work otherwise;
5. Constitutionally weaker than members of the dominant culture; CHECK
6. Complete lack of moral self-control; CHECK
7. Bent on world domination. These plans always involve secret conspiracies and special skills known only to the clan;
8. Despite their minority status, they are thought to have far more power than their numbers, and an inordinate influence over the running
of the country;
9. Heirs to an inhumanly bloody history that cannot be forgiven, and
which they have never moved past (they're "bloodthirsty savages" with
no redeeming qualities); and which never created anything meaningful
in the way of art, music, science, or architecture (writing them out
of history); DOUBLE CHECK
10. Congenitally to understand the subtleties of the "superior" race they live among, and thus forever brutish and inferior; CHECK
11. Inadequate personal and domestic hygiene (they smell, and their houses and businesses aren't clean). Carriers of strange diseases that threaten the dominant culture;
12. "Breeding like flies" and attendant fears that they're going to out-breed the dominant culture (this one will be tossed around
regardless of actual comparative birth rates);
13. The men are out-of-control sex fiends who will sexually terrorize the dominant culture's women if not firmly restrained; CHECK
14. The women are appropriate targets for sexual abuse by men of the dominant culture. They probably even enjoy the chance to finally
experience a "real man;" DOUBLE CHECK
Congrats, nomoreclintonorbush, you're half way to be a full on Eliminationist.
You're worse at this than I thought you were.
2. Cite exactly what I stated that remotely implies Muslims are clannish and unwilling to assimilate into Swiss (or western) culture? I never said they wanted to stone women or were unwilling or unable to reject the lunacy of their religious beliefs (and leaders in particular).
3. They certainly have respect for the law. I never said anything to the contrary about any Swiss Muslim. And certainly this does not require brute force. I said elsewhere that the ban was not an effective means of shining light on specific criticisms of Islam.
5. How did I state or imply that Swiss Muslims are constitutionally weaker? They have every right to built a mosque with bells, same as a Swiss non-Muslim. And a Swiss non-Muslim cannot built minarets. The rules are applied the same for all Swiss.
6. How did I state or imply any lack of moral control on the part of Swiss Muslims or Muslims in general, let alone a "complete lack" of such control? Never stated it. Never implied it. Your assertion I have is a lie.
9. False assertion on your party, this is not bloody history, it is bloody present. Present day Islam is vastly, overwhelmingly, shockingly, abruptly, less socially tolerant than other religions (which is not saying much because other religions aren't great at this either for the most part).
10. Swiss non-Muslims are not superior, I never stated it, I never implied it. Your assertion is without merit.
13. Wrong, false, I did not indicate anything of the sort with respect to Swiss Muslim men, attacking Swiss non-Muslim women. Your assertion is invalid.
14. WTF b.s.? Citation for exactly what I said that qualifies for this, please. I have been STANDING up for women victims, while you have been tacitly defending Islam as though these actions don't happen or aren't a problem.
There certainly are far more stonings of Muslim women by Muslim men than there are of Christian women by any man. You refuse to address this as a real problem. You'd rather make analogies about how the Swiss are on the way to Nazism.
The Swiss aren't stoning people to death.
Further, you've used a classic propaganda technique, false testimonial. You are drawing David Neiwert into this, as though he would agree with you. And maybe he would, but he could do this himself, and maybe he'd disagree with you but of course you're not giving him an opportunity. It's a false connection, and classic propaganda ploy.
I'm with you on this one. You are brave to defend what's right against a bunch of hypocrites, these people call themselves liberal, but they are not. They aren't against bigotry racism hatred misogyny or homophobia, they are against it with people that disagree with them politically. They call you names and assign you attributes that you haven't expressed through your dialogue, so that it's easier to gang up on you and incite others to contribute name calling. You have been civil, these people are cowards. And I'm embarrassed to think that I share a political side of the spectrum with them.
Peace man
But real peace, not what these tools are espousing
You defend Islam and it's right to perpetuate fear bigotry racism Misogyny and homophobia.
What is it about Gay people that YOU HATE?
this was my favorite:
"13. The men are out-of-control sex fiends who will sexually terrorize the dominant culture's women if not firmly restrained; CHECK"
No, they just terrorize their own culture's women, they'd like us all to do that, a lot of christians would too... as would you apparently.
2. It's anti-intellectual and anti-academic to extrapolate broad conclusions based on your singular anecdotes..
Aren't unsupported sweeping generalizations what you've just been offering? Without even an anecdote to wash them down with.
It's not just exptrapolating from anexdotes, but positing false dichotomies.
The test isn't what some, not all, Islamists do in their own countries, but what they do once settled in a larger European community, which Switzerland is.
Anecdotes,
Unless you're remodeling
And if you're playing the fool
Anticdolts.
I find mustaches offensive. Makes you look like an idiot.
This is a disgrace....considering how Saudi Arabia is so welcoming to churches in their country.....At last count there were something like oh how many again...Oh yeah ZERO! And how well they treat their women it is really a disgrace that the Swiss are showing so much disrespect to a religion that basically thinks that half the population of the earth are inferior to the other half and that is only the women in their own religion let alone how they feel about the "Infidels" I am not fond of religions in general but Islam has a special place in my range of dislike..... at the bottom of the list! Thanks you Switzerland for standing up to this goofiness. If I survive the economic catastrophe I will come and spend some money in your country and I will always buy swiss products in solidarity with your country. Again well done Switzerland!
teach that we women should "graciously" submit to men, leading to such atrocious practices as getting women pregnant long after they should stop, voter fraud, domestic violence, etc. etc.
Can we ban Christian church bells now? Or steeples and crosses?
Don't act like Islam has a monopoly on misogyny, please.
one nation under god. :)
:)
In the 60's Paul Krassner ran a cartoon in his magazine The Realist entitled "One Nation Under God" in which His Holiness was giving it to Uncle Sam from behind.
And to this day I cannot read or hear the phrase "One Nation Under God" without seeing that cartoon in my mind's eye.
Tue, 12/01/2009 - 19:18 — Alerta_Alerta
one nation under god. :)
__________________________________________________
That's called the missionary position.
well known by the bonobos.
Missionaries and bonobos
How else to explain Unitarians?
Religions are evil. Religious people are tools. Until the former are gone and the latter live in reality, we will continue to have all of the things that we as liberals detest. We shouldn't ban these things, we should mock them, and make anyone who believes in them embarrassed. It's time to be intolerant of intolerance. Time to let people know that they should be embarrassed to hate gay people, women, people of other races.
If you are hate misogyny , racism, sexism you should hate Christianity AND Islam. Otherwise you are a complete hypocrite. Just like if you hate sexism, you should hate misogyny AND misandry. Sometimes I wonder if people actually have ideals, or if they just defend groups that are sympathetic to them regardless of what those groups perpetuate.
How does that sound?
Saudi Arabia is not a democracy. If it were, it certainly would NOT welcome churches in their country. If the government weren't paying off the Wahhabis and keep them under foot, they would have laid waste to any Christians living in the country. It's ridiculous that you would point to Saudi Arabia as a country of tolerance just because their government tolerates Christianity in order to appease their major purchasers.
What has Saudi Arabia has to do with Swiss? What has the numbers of churches has to do with the number of mosques in Swiss? Nothing.
When foreign women visit Saudi Arabia, they are forced to veil themselves. It's not just a religious position, it's a political and sociological ploy to enforce inferiority on women, period. Saudi officials make noise about this being a cultural requirement--when in Rome... This is given the lie when Muslim women are still forced to veil themselves when in other countries by their own co-religionists. As an assimilated, naturalized citizen of the US, I say that the veil needs to be shucked. It is a badge of otherness, just like wearing the yellow star was in NAZI Germany.
The Koran says nothing about being veiled from head to toe, it merely requires modest coif and dress. It was a fashionable affectation of wealthy women which has since been turned into imprisonment wherever Muslim women find themselves.
This kind of behavior is what I find objectionable and arguing that Islam is as violent and backward as other religions really doesn't address the special bigotry against their own women members. Even the Amish rules for modest women can't be compared to this.
I would like to ban those really big billboards of Jesus on either end of my old college town. When they went up, the collective IQ of the town sank about 5 points.
..would be singing the same tune if there was a ban on steeples?
Or crosses for that matter?
They'd have nothing to burn.
..ever hear of the Salem Witch Trials?
How many people here have seen the Bill Maher film "Religulous"? I thought that the strongest point Maher made was toward the end, when he was talking about how the religious fanatics are making the world a very dangerous place, and "we have to stop enabling their behaviour."
Is by protecting free speech, including criticizing ridiculous beliefs and practices. In particular of religious fanatics. I don't think making religion illegal is appropriate or helpful. I don't think that even a symbolic ban on structures is helpful.
But granting entitlement to belief in ridiculous things and insulation from criticizing, does enable a behavior whereby people will believe in ridiculous things. Believing in ridiculous things is a self-rewarding behavior if the group gets large enough. Critical thinking and criticism is the path. Not banning behaviors.
as to how many people feel this sort of thing is okay. This is how it starts...."Oh, those Jewish people won't mind wearing those stars, I mean they ARE Jews after all." And Jewish culture's hands are any more cleaner than Islamic onesas well as Christian. But it is SO much easier to demonize a whole group, starting with small bans and regulations...etc...then it gets out of control. This is JUST about architecture and a way to take a slap at the current bogeyman of the 21st century.
Nay!
It's NOT about architecture!!
It's about the "creeping Islamification of Europe" !!!
Haven't you read the
propagandainformation pamphlets!The minarets are the symbols of the Islamic intent to raise Sharia Law above Swiss Law. (That's actually the rationale!)
We're all gonna be "Islamified"?!!
Sharia Law sounds like some kind of drag queen to me.
;)
.
Said the guy whose name sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9nO9Ro_kd4
Only a straight man would think that.
As for Lee...when he butched it up, he was actually kind actrative in his day. (See "Chandel" episode of 1960s Batman)
for revealing the musical form that caused the marijuana craze and the advancement of teh gay agenda. We should have banned candelabra.
Yup!
Them minaret's gonna Islamify Europe.
Yup!
I used to think that the Swiss were harmless, until I went there and personally experienced their mistrust/fear/hatred of "other." Disgusting that a citizens of a supposed enlightened democracy could enact such a hateful law. and citizens of other enlightened democracies to come up with excuses justifying it.
Switzerland is a scary place.
all them cows, chocolate, watches, bank accounts, and cuckoo clocks, I'd be pretty scared. Plus the hills being alive and all....(I know, that's actually Austria).
;)
I would think a MountainMan would like such mountainous country.
It's where the book Frankenstein takes place.
the mountain air is like dope, makes them a little wacky ;)
Of all the west European countries I visited, I'd say England was the scariest. But still, none compare to the larger cities of the US. I was raised in L.A. and felt relatively safe in all the major capitols.
England is shite, but not as bad as i had it in France (Paris). God, what a crap town. (imo)
than in American small towns.
except for around Temple University in Philly, that part of the city used to scare the shit out of me.
I don't mean violent-scary, rather, it's uncomfortable. It's a place where, as a brown person, I immediately felt like I wasn't welcome by pretty much every citizen I met.
Going to a football (soccer) game in London (Arsenal!) when I did a study abroad year and they were playing a Brazilian team and the UK fans threw bananas on the field at the opposing team.
It was a little horrifying to me.
unbelievable. they have people with stretchers everywhere.
And those folks are very busy. Very Busy!
I couldn't believe it.
green white ftw :D
You were probably scared because of all those Witches and Wizards, wearing the weird robes and making fun of you ignorant Muggles.
;)
Switzerland was not scary in the ordiary sense.
Not like an American city.
Switzerland was too orderly.
The streets in Geneva were too clean.
Everyone left the keys in their motorcycles parked on the street, bicycles unlocked .. and evidently they were never stolen.
Scary!!
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