A Wave of Suicides for Army Recruiters
One of the reasons I thought this war (in addition to being immoral) was so very stupid is that I remember the veterans from the Vietnam era - how many of them were a mess when they came home, and how many stayed that way. The power to send soldiers to war is a sacred trust, and it should not be used for anything less than the most compelling reasons.
As bad as it is for soldiers, recruiters have a uniquely stressful job in which they're expected to somehow turn their own war experiences into happy talk for potential converts:
Morning Edition, January 2, 2009 · The Army is investigating a cluster of suicides in the Houston Recruiting Battalion, where five soldiers have taken their own lives since 2001. Nationally, 17 recruiters have committed suicide during the same period.
Back in March of 2007, Aron Andersson locked himself in the cab of his Ford 150 pickup, called home to say he was going to kill himself, shot up the dashboard radio, and then put a bullet in his head. He had threatened suicide five months earlier, and back then his father, Bob Andersson, reported him to the military.
"I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but I called a major and told him his girlfriend had said he threatened to commit suicide, and she told me he was going through night terrors and a bunch of other things. And he'd get up to go to work in the morning and tell his girlfriend he was exhausted, and she'd say, 'Yeah you've been jumpin' over the couch, hidin' behind the chairs and stuff, like you're in battle,' and he wouldn't even realize it in the morning," Andersson says.
Aron Andersson served two tours in Iraq, and he was furious with his father for reporting him, saying his Army career would be ended.
"And I just simply told him, 'Well, Aron, if you don't talk to me ever again, I can live with that. But if I didn't turn you in and something happened, I don't think I could live with that,' " Bob Andersson says.
Andersson says his son had trouble delivering the required two recruits a month, especially after his experience in Iraq.
"How could you be over there and see some of the things he saw and dealt with, and try to hire people to go over there and do that?" he says.
Disband the CIA.
Nationalize the military, eliminate private outsourcing.
Reinstate a peacetime draft/national service program without exemptions.
Refrain from wars of aggression and adventure.
The last one will be easy after the others, when Fat Cats sons and daughters are in there too, there will be no further wars of aggression.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
disbanding the government instead of aiming it's guns in a different direction. I'm pretty sure that potential draftees can very well do without having a gun pointed at them so they'll join up.
No government = no further wars of aggression.
...in a perfect world.
Ron Paul station to try that one out on.
Or look to Somalia, they are trying that out there. The pirates seem to be doing good business.
Here on these pages we tend towards thinking that a Government that works for the citizens is a desirable end.
Maybe I should just speak for myself.
Government that builds and operate good schools, that operates good health care facilities and generally seeks the improvement of the common weal.
Having an army at half our current ticket would still protect us from anyone out there.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
how would this "desirable end" government that you speak of acquire it's funds?
is very important. There are tons of jobs in the military that used to be filled by people who wanted hands on training for a career outside the military.
It would seem to me that these jobs could be done by recruits and tons of money saved that is wasted on outfits like KBR, Haliburton, etc.
Now if you return the military to what it was when I was in, Just how would DICK C get him old companie billions of tax dollars. How would bush reward his campaine doners.
Seems at times like everyone's dying because of the war except those who started this war and their family members.
The ones who start WARS would have to send there family first, there kids first, there would be no wars. You will never see the people who are in office send there kids to a war they start. You will never see the weapons makers send there kids to fight a war they supply. You will never see the rich send there kids to fight for the freedom they enjoy. BUT, if a law got passed that would require there family members go first, there would be very few wars.
military supports it's troops, they don't. they lure them in, get them killed or wounded and then tell them to fuck off.
Cut off their benefits end send em to Walter Reed. That's supporting the troops Republican style.
not to mention under-equip them, or withhold upgrades that could protect them.
In actions they tell them to fuck off.
Verbally they pay them "lip service". PRETENDING that they are the patriotic, pro-troop party.
At least the Democrats / liberals are honest about it by straight up telling them they support them by not wanting them to go die or get their legs blown off.
But too many of these troops have bought into the propaganda that these wars were necessary and that Democrats and liberals are cowards and cut-and-runners.
The only shit the military let the troops listen in Iraq is right wing shit, limbought, han-a-die. Stations like Air America, Deocracy Now, cant get on the air.
In the military, you can only do what the assholes in washington will let you. If you are brass, you either suck up to the assholes in washington or look for another job. We have some good people in washington , Sen Jim Webb. then there is ncnut, who was fighting Webbs GI Bill untill mcnut knew it was going to pass w/o him. Then bush gives mcnut praise for the bill. GD there is 300 million people in the US and we let less than 100,000 people run our life.
Karma is strict and it fo'sho is a bitch....It will, without doubt, catch up to you sooner or later. Looks like it's more sooner than later for some, huh?
Maybe anyone here thinking about joining up should give it some serious consideration.
Bush's legacy of debt, destruction and death just keeps on giving.
all the shit this guy has done? his reward, his 2.1 million dollar in tx, retirement for the rest of his life while Americans get kicked out of there homes, while Americans run out of unemployment money.this country is going to suffer for years from what bush did in his 8 years. Well just the hard working Americans, the rich will go on as they have for ever.
why should treatment for ptsd end someone's military career?
the cost of this war will span decades
its just not right
I can understand how having PTSD could end someone's career.
If I am going into battle, I don't want a leader that might not be 100% "there" because of a mental health issue. And, as a Navy vet who was diagnosed with PTSD, I wouldn't want the job of leading people in a time of battle. I have to keep my stress levels down or I just fall apart.
Please don't take that as apathy towards those people's careers. If a military member cannot perform their job because of a mental health illness acquired in the performance of their duties, that servicemember should be taken care of properly. Full disability from the VA with no red tape. Unfortunately, that is not happening (I was told, "unless you saw blood and gore, you're not going to get disability." I would be a heck of a lot more upset with the VA over that, if they were getting the funding they need. As it stands, I would rather that money go to someone with problems greater than mine and all of the VA reps I've ever met are solid people who truly want to help.
Anyway, as was already stated on this thread, situations like this are exactly why military force must be an absolute last resort. Because the toll it takes is far higher than any of us know and we, as a country, are negligent in our duty to take care of those who volunteered to take care of us.
I really agree with you that it is sad; it makes me want to cry as well. I recently started a new job that puts me in contact with a lot of these guys and I have to be honest, the emotional toll for me is more than I anticipated.
We owe our combat troops so much more than what we give them.
I had to take a test(psych test) to be a cop to see if I had no mental health issues. You know, I would have a gun. did not want me going around with a gun if I was nuts. So this said, Why do our elected (leaders) not be made to take the psych test to see if they have mential issues. I do think bush would never pass any test like that.
Will make you live in hell.
Enjoy.
Mom always told me I was special and I believed her.
we have "last alternative" wars. My kid won't be going to his possible death for NOTHING BUT a noble and necessary cause.
...there is nothing noble about any war, and the vast majority of them have hardly been necessary.
As long as people are willing to believe that fighting and killing are ways to solve problems, we're just doomed to keep repeating our long, sad history as a human species.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
I will second that. I come from a family where my dad, husband and father-in-law all served in the military over 21 yrs. They gave enough. I have only one child and he is a boy. I won't send my son to Iraq for Bush's Oil. Now if our country is being attacked here in the states by golly I will push him to defend our home country here.
Southern Yankee
I think most would volunteer to defend the US in time of attacks here, no prompting necessary, even in light of post 911/Iraq fiasco.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Yes I would hope so and pray they would.
Southern Yankee
they call it a national defense.
Bush has used it as an offense.
Some of the things that don't ever make the news is the number of speeding tickets issued to Iraqi Vets.
Seriously. A lot of them can't shake that, a slow moving vehicle is an easy target mentality that they needed to survive in Iraq and have real lead feet behind the wheel.
The Walter Reed scandal aside, the Army medical community does a pretty good job with these kids.
Unfortunately, there is only so much that can do and many things are out of their hands. There are a lot of Soldiers sent to the front whose doctors would recommend otherwise. But...at the very top, the Soldiers aren't humans. They're numbers. Quotas must be filled, injury, PTSD, and humanity be damned.
tough physical training, which just about all recruits want.
What the recruits don't know about, and what the army doesn't tell them about, is the risk of injury to their minds. This is fraud and deception in the inducement.
That is so true. But you were there and when you come back it is up to you and your fellow soldiers to tell them what really is going on. Don't paint a pretty picture. After you tell them the truth than let them make up their mind. A young kid needs to know everything. The good and the bad and especially the bad. To many young kids see a TV war. They haven't really seen it like we did on TV during the VN conflict. War isn't pretty and people get killed.
Southern Yankee
If the army can be in high schools then the Vets against war should have there time to tell the kids what the real world is like.
One:
The Government has been LYING to its enlisted guys about Iraq since the very beginning... therefore it follows that enlisted recruters would be lying to civillian kids about military service. So WHY THE FUCK are they trying to recruit fresh meat into the ultimate meat grinder when they had such a bad experience? WHY THE FUCK do they refuse psychological help even when it's offered? Sorry... but this is VIET NAM RE-DUEX. If you (veterans) can't learn from history... you are DOOMED to repeat it. (I'm a US ARMY vet from the Viet Nam era... I think I know what I'm talkin' about.)
Two:
I work on a high school campus... and see Marine recruiters on campus all the time. Some of these recruiters are super-straight good guys who honestly believe they have something REALLY GOOD to offer the African-American and Mexican-American seniors they try to talk to... and the truth is that THEY DO! There sure as hell aren't any good civillian jobs for them to get into around here after graduation. If it weren't for the Iraq war I would support their efforts, but I must take partial responsibility for this situation because I'm an American and it's MY WAR TOO... so I tell EVERY KID I can talk to about the corruption and immorality of the OCCUPATION OF IRAQ. I give them as much information as I can... then it's up to them to decide.
You are one of the Heroes out there. Need more people like you.
It's proven itself to not be in our best interest to join since it is used for other reasons than actual defense.
Boycott the Military and show them we don't approve.
There are too many people joining up because of the economy. I'm shocked by how many recruits are in their 30s now days.
When you have to provide for your family and your options are all dried up, the military starts to look a lot more attractive.
Right now the times are hard. I grew up in a military family and loved it. We travelled all over the world and the united states. I had opportunities most of my peers never had. I married a military and he too retired. It is a special way of life. No where else do you meet different kinds of people from all over the states. In that respect I enjoyed it. When you marry a military man you know you come second to his job. If you love him you support him all the way. He doesn't need to go off to any mission and worry about the home front. I grew up that way and I knew what was going to happen when I became a military wife.
Southern Yankee
I was a little selfish - I treated it primarily as a job. I joined what I thought would be the "safest" service for me in the event of a war - the Navy. This was in 86 - right out of high school. What did I know? I was a kid with few options. I grew up in a broken family and hated school and pissed it away. It was the MiLitary or McDonalds and I wanted my girlfriend at the time to be proud of me and view me as a viable option for marriage!
3 years and 3 months into my first enlistment (and only intended one) my high school sweetheart / fiance broke up with me. DEVESTATION!
I met someone else, initially liked her and rushed into things! Up for "shore duty" (the icing part of the sea / shore rotation cake!) I reenlisted, had a kid, got into debt, and learned we couldn't stand each other!
On the verge of finally getting out after 8 or 9 years, not wanting to go back to sea duty and hating most things about the Navy lifestyle, the quality of life, and the vast majority of people I was surrounded by, I was offered relatively desirable orders for sea duty, and I reenlisted AGAIN - solely for financial reasons. The Navy was all I knew and I was afraid that I would not easily find a civilian job making the kind of money I was making as an E5 over 8 years OR the kind of money I needed to pay the bills I racked up. The Navy was more like parents who gave me a pretty damn good allowance - it would be there as long as I did what I was supposed to and lived by their rules and conditions however much I disliked them - but I was afraid to leave "home" and not make it on my own. I went in the Navy as a scared kid and became an adult in the Navy - but in some ways I didn't. I got into debt and had child support - and that was my fault, but the Navy had me by the gonads! (We'll give you this semi-miserable life for pretty damn good pay!)
Perhaps it wasn't so bad - I was just really lonely and never adjusted - never adjusted to being owned - to being told how I had to look - to long lonely deployments - to hardly ever dating anyone after my separation from my wife - to being surrounded by what seemed like a fair amount of numbskulls!
I got out in 99, after 12 + years, after I was absolutely fed up.
Don't get me wrong - I liked the idea of serving my country and I enjoyed what I did in the military - my rating - but I think it's fair to say that most people, even military people are looking out for number one first. You do what you have to do to keep your ass out of some kind of sling but you're always thinking of yourself and your loved ones!
At the time I did not think our military was being used for inappropriate things. Although I was on a ship that retaliated against Iran for allegedly placing mines in the Persian Gulf and damaging one of our Navy ships. I'm sure people died. I remember thinking at the time that I hoped it was our only option, it was necessary, they deserved it and we weren't somehow the "aggressors".
But not until the Iraq War did I view the military as the iron fist of the neocon agenda. Granted, I was not around for the Vietnam debacle and I think / thought we cleaned up our act a little for the decades that followed - until Iraq.
HOW THE FUCK was Iraq allowed to occur after the Vietnam debacle so close in our rear view mirror?
If I had been in during the Iraq War, I don't think I could have continued collecting a paycheck from the military in good conscience. The people in the military are innocent, but the military itself is being used inappropriately. I feel there is a good chance that the Bush administration had an ulterior motive to go in Iraq and it had little to do with noble causes like removing Saddam, weapons of mass destruction and bringing freedom to Iraq. My gut tells me it had less to do with what Iraq would get out of it and more to do with what the people REALLY behind the Iraq War thought they would get out of it. MANY people died for this seemingly WANTED war.
A few years after I left the military I briefly worked for a military contractor within the US - one of the few reasonably good paying jobs that I seemed to be qualified for at the time. When the Iraq War started I was amazed that a few people were willing to put themselves in harms way and enrich themselves by working for contractors in Iraq - I'm sorry, my life doesn't have a price tag. And I could not live with myself profiting as an accomplice to something that I view as outrageous and immoral.
In no other war this country has engaged in have troops been recalled 2, 3, 4, 5 and even 6 times to fight in the same war. No one, I mean NO ONE can imagine what it must be like to leave your wife and children time and time again for long periods and expect everything to be hunky dory when that troop returns. Absolutely no regard is given to the terrible toll this takes on a family. If anyone thinks they just might have an idea what it may be like, think again. Their children may not remember them, their wives have to try to rekindle what it's like to be close once more after valiantly maintaining the love for their mates, year after miserable year. One tour is hard enough. Several more is just not cruel, it requires superhuman abilities. And after fighting the kind of war that is Iraq and Afghanistan and returning to an uncertain condition with inadequate support from the government that sent you.........time after time, there are no words sufficient to describe what this must be like. My heart hurts deeply for these military men and women and their tortured families.
Thank you.
Can you imagine what it must be like for a recruiter who has a conscience to sell the military to kids, especially if he has seen first hand what war is like? He is ordered to sell it and to make the quota.
He has to lie and tell them that this is a wonderful opportunity when, in fact, he has seen first hand how many soldiers have been totally screwed up by the military. He knows about those who did not come home.
Some of these recruiters said they would rather be back in Iraq rather than recruit.
It is not surprising that some can not live with that.
Frank Z
I can tell you first hand experience from seeing my husband pulled from the job he liked to recruiting duty. They gave him the story the army only picks the top 10% to go to recruiting duty. Yes it was extremely difficult for my husband he had a conscience and would tell a kid the truth. He would tell him why he was a soldier. He told him the good and the bad. He would never force a kid. He felt that it was a big decision and he or she need to speak with their parents to make the final decision. My husband had an extremely difficult time. He never got want they wanted him to get. Recruiters usually have big ego and love themselves. Or I should say the ones that are very successful. There are some that love being a recruiter and others who hated it. I was very happy when we finally left. My husband didn't make it as a recruiter. At least he can sleep at night knowing he never forced a person to go in. Believe me I know about that did.
Southern Yankee
As someone with no military experience, it is good to hear something heartfelt from someone who has firsthand knowledge.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
I thank you. You know that is when you really are down and you don't know where to turn. I turned to church. Every morning I dropped my husband off to work than my child and I went to mass. I pray and cried everyday for my husband. When I pick him up at work I always showed a smile. I gave him my loving full support. When he made promotion he always thanked me in front of everyone because he knew without my support he couldn't do his job. Now he is retired and I am still giving him support. That is the way we should all be.
Southern Yankee
these tough times. I'm still single, probably will be rest of my life. Sometimes gets tough to have the supportive conversations with myself. I'm not always the best listener...
But my dog does her best.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
I Know what you mean. I have to say I was extremely lucky to end up with my husband who I only knew for a very short time. I like him a lot but I grew to love him even more as time marched on. Dec we were married 30 yrs. I am older than my husband and a few pounds heavier but he still loves me and I love him. I was 30 when he came along and even then I wasn't sure I wanted to get married. I was afraid to experience things I never had before like sex (ha). But I caught on and I wouldn't change a thing. Believe me when you aren't even looking she will show up. My mom always said go to church you'll find the right guy. I would laugh but I met a guy that worked in a chaplains office. I guess that was close. My sister is single and she said her time for marriage has passed but she is happy because she has nieces and nephews that all love her. Plus she has friends she gets together with. But you know you can even be lovely in a crowded room. I have a couple of dogs that we love. They are always with us. They are truly mans best friends. You are lucky you have a pet. If I didn't have my husband I would still have a dog. My dogs keep me company when my husband is at work.
Southern Yankee
War Is A Racket
by Major General Smedley Butler
1935
I was a Gangster for Capitalism
by Major General Smedley Butler
November 1935
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
They play off each other.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
General Sir
Don't you think your NCO's didn't know. I come from a long line of family members. My dad was with the old army air corp until they went with the Air Force. He had 22 yrs of services. WWII, Korea and got out right before we got involved in VN. He was there before anyone new were VN was. He said he was getting to old and he had enough. My father-in-law was in for 24 yrs and also served in WWII, Korea and VN. He was a trainer and a Senior Enlisted man. He said he knew than that the United States wasn't going to win the conflict in VN because the soldiers didn't have the fight in themselves to fight for their country. He knew before hand. I bet you did too. I think a lot of our soldiers felt our Generals sold them out for a promotion or 2. I get mad that soldier in VN died for nothing. Young men who never was able to see the dream of getting married and have families. You are honest General and I can thank you but don't you think for one minute that the soldiers don't know what is going on. They do. Yet they love their country. My husband served 21 yrs also and he knew what the generals are up to. But he did his job and supported the troops below him. He came from another country and was adopted young. He felt he owed something to this country for the things he has. Believe me he earned every penny while serving in the military. The only thing I ask our generals to do is make sure you back up going to war for the right reason. Most of the generals let their soldiers down for not standing up for the right thing. General Powell had that opportunity and he didn't do it. I will always be disappointed he didn't resign. That would have shown the country alot.
Southern Yankee
I remember as an Air Force vet in the last few months of my enlistment wishing they had Basic Training programs to turn me back into a civilian. I enlisted right out of high school, and didn't even know how to balance a chequebook, or get a credit card. I was peace-time, so one could imagine the need for such programs for those who'd seen action.
I remember seeing a sign in the VA hospital last time I was there. It was only one in a huge building. It read, "A Strong Soldier Knows When To Ask For Help." It was from a suicide prevention program. I liked the slogan. It's like looking to your buddies to cover your back, in battle. No one would fault a soldier for that expectation.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
A lot of soldiers fear going to get mental health. They feel its a career breaker. Some guys feared even going to the chaplain because they feared the chaplain would say something. They are in a no win situation. My husband was a recruiter not by choice. He wasn't the salesman type. That is the kind of a man you need to do that job. I thought he was going to kill himself and I reached out to his station commander and they sent him to be evaluated and they still kept him doing the job he never wanted. He felt the responsibility of talking some kid to join the military was ok but he would not pressure the kid. He told him the truth why he was in the military. But the final decision was always up to the kid. Some recruiters pushed and pushed kids to join. Most recruiters that are excessful have very big egos and think very highly of themselves. I can honestly say that most of the recruiters I saw at my husbands station were very competitive and didn't get along very well. They all like my husband because he did his job up until he left. We were so happy to get the hell out of there. They sent him back to his regular job and we retired after 21 yrs of service.
Southern Yankee
Another myth disproved that the Republicans care about the people in the military.
So.... you fight in an illegal war.... come back and try to convince OTHERS to join up... see the results of your SALES PITCH.... and decide to kill yourself.
A recruiter's job is hell. An experience in a combat situation could be a mitigating factor, but the fact remains there is no stress like working for the Armed Services in a recruiter's billet. The senior personnel make it extremely difficult to focus on anything but the next contract, and care nothing for those that try to have any kind of life away from recruiting, and disdain for those whose personal lives force the focus away from recruiting.
I would guess this rash of suicides has little to do with experiences overseas, and everything to do with the fact that senior recruiting personnel are bearing down on those pounding the pavement to recruit now, when we are in the middle of such a conflict as Iraq.
Nobody I have ever talked to would ever join the service or have their children killed just for Dumbya and the Cardiac kids stupidity and lies.
If every Christian terrorist who ever stepped foot in Iraq or contributed to the war crimes were do kill themselves, the world would be a far better place.
I read your heart felt comment it touch me I'am a military wife in the Army my husband is a Sgt. in the S-1 shop. Today my husband and I was talking about is unit deploying this year or early next year I'am perfectly horrified and scared and my family been thru some SHIT!! Like a hurricane, homelessness etc plus I have 6 children under 12 years old 3 boys and 3 girls I told my husband I love him very much the kids look forward for him come home every nite. Now if he deploys for 12 months after all the things we went thru I know I can't put the children thru hell again as well as myself. I feel that I have to be superhuman and it is taking all my strength than some. To deal with all this crap in the homefront with these FRG and the hospital etc it like I'am all alone single but married I'm pissed off to know end how the military treat the family obsolete we don't exist. I told my husband what everybody else saying you are number not human. I'am so scared that he will get hurt or go crazy tears rolling on my face as I type how did you coup with this Damn War, that stupid-ass Bush had started. I feel for the children high school because I have sons and daughters I refuse to let a recuriter lied to them and they know damn well it is a death certificate or perament disability and the government do not take care of vet or civilian properly or they care about themselves and the mighty dollar. I'm begging my husband to tell the unit I'm in precarious health I have pre-existing condition and plus hypertension this will take a toll on my health and if loses me he can't go on no more... I bless you to be so strong because economy today is fucked. I don't know what todo... Scared military wife and children.
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