Jonathan Alter and Bob Shrum finds co-ops acceptable and don't think liberals should go public option or bust.
By John Amato Friday Aug 07, 2009 11:01am
Every sane liberal and Democratic activist and analyst who has a brain knows that co-ops are a worthless concept only put out there so Max Baucus and his bi partisan jelly fish can help rip off the American people and pad the pockets of the health care industrial complex. Welcome to our liberal elite.
ALTER: Well, there has to be some kind of cooperative, maybe what they call a souped-up cooperative, one that can actually withstand pressure from insurance companies which in the past have taken something like BlueCross, which is originally nonprofit and turned it into just another insurance company. So, the problem with the co-op idea is that it-they have been putty in the hands of the insurance company. But there still is room for compromise there. They could design a new kind of co-op that could provide some real competition.
OLBERMANN: Yes.
ALTER: It could be essentially a public-private option that satisfies enough people to get something through. So, I don't think liberals should go, you know, public option or bust. There are other alternatives and you have to remember that there are many, many important things in this bill that have become almost non-controversial that two years ago, if you'd been told they're going to-they're going to end discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions, they're going to insure another 30 million Americans, we say, "Great, where do we sign up?" And now, some progressives are-maybe a little bit too wed to the public option. Even though, my favorite, too, but we shouldn't go down with the ship, with the public option.
Listen, Jonathan. There is no room for compromise with co-ops. Jay Rockefeller already disproved them in detail, if you were keeping track of these things. It's a con game cooked up to fool people like you into thinking Kent Conrad and Chuck Grassley would actually design a new kind of SUPER CO-OP that will save the day. Are you that daft or just sucking it up for the David Broder-bipartisan coalition?
We were promised real health-care reform, not some sad sack of a plan that includes ginned-up co-ops that have all been panned by the "serious people" who write about health care. As usual we're the dirty f*&king hippies who better live without our public option. Obama was only elected with a clear mandate to reform health care and we should be thankful for what we get.
Bob Shrum jumped in with the same lame argument and he said on Hardball that if co ops are included that provide competition then the bill is just fine too.
SHRUM: I certainly think he should do that. reconciliation was...
MATTHEWS: No, he doesn't have to. SHRUM: ... used by Reagan. It was used by Bush.
MATTHEWS: No, but what's the-if he has to choose between a bill that comes out of that bipartisan panel in the Senate, Finance Committee, and going with a much more liberal bill, what would you do?
SHRUM: I would-I would look-I'd judge it by what's in that bill. If there's a co-op that effectively does provide competition with the insurance industry, then I think you can move forward. By the way, in other respects, that bill is not a vastly scaled-down bill. It's $100 billion less over 10 years out of a program that costs $1 trillion over 10 years.
What data does he have to suggest that co ops can bring that to the table? None.
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Worthless as is the 'Public Option'.
The entire effort is a bailout of the insurance industry.
What we need is full National Health.
Expand the VA to a Full National Health Service. Get rid of the rest of the Department Defense.
We can use the Detroit Police Department for National Defense, they aren't doing anything now anyway.
Ask Malice Green about that idea.
That was nearly twenty years ago.
Man I'm old.
LOL. The frothing rightarded traitors are trying to sell a concept of Communism, how highly ironic.
Republicans are insane, violently, frothingly insane.
It is a toy concept. I want a Full National Health.
Yeah I heard Jonathan Alter on Keith Olbermann's show last night talking about the left compromising and accepting Co-Ops. Another rich person secure in his health care telling the uninsured what's the best we can do. In case he hasn't noticed, we already compromised by letting the Obama administration get away with taking single-payer off the table. The public option was to be the compromise policy. Notice how the mainstream media is already begging down from a public option to co-ops. This is why Obama should've come to the table with single payer!
If he had come to the table with a Full National Health program he might have gotten Single Payer as the compromise.
In negotiations you start with the sky.
He was only pretending. He wanted to LOOK like he was doing something.
That's the first thing I thought too. So as libruls we've gone from single payer, to the "public option", and now our big bargaining chip is Co-opts? Dy-no-mite.
--It is our Chicken Ship leaders that are trying to slip this by-0-Conrad and the ilke! This is an excellent article on the GOP lies and the knuckle dragger dem's are trying to sell!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/...
Call the media outlets and tell them to quit reporting the townhall BS or we boycott..It is not the Presidents plan--IT IS CONGRESS WHO ARE CHARGED WITH WRITING LEGISLATION!
To disrupt or prevent others from being heard is not discourse but paid for thuggery havioc!
"...we already compromised by letting the Obama administration get away with taking single-payer off the table." A compromise has to be agreed to. I didn't agree to this, did you? As for the bipartisan nonsense, why does anyone care what the GOP thinks? They will not vote for anything that does not make their corporate owners richer. Just ram through single-payer. Everyone will learn to live with it. Pun intended.
There's the old cliche that chaos equals opportunity. The insurance companies will appear to take one to the broadside, but in the end I bet the Obama administration will come up with some plan FORCING Americans to buy insurance from some co-op, which will benefit the industry. You watch. The fix is in. My friends in England, Europe, and Canada laugh at our system and needle me about it endlessly. Heath, like national security, is a national concern and should be paid for federally. Raise my damn taxes if you want. Stop the shell game.
we quit informing the people of the truth..Insurance Co profits up 428% since 2000...the Healthcare lobbyists are pouring $1.4 million A DAY into the coffers of Congress...Call your local rep/senate offices daily...get active---make a fuss! But do not wreck havoc...Bullies only shut down when confronted---louder, longer with truth!
this just means that enough well-to-do villagers have had cocktails together and agreed that since "liberals" want a public option, then it must not be necessary, because nothing "liberals" want is ever necessary, according to these people. so they agreed to start talking up the co-ops, clinked their glasses together, and proceeded to get stupid.
with co-ops I would like Rep Weiner to do the fine tuning afterwards, ;)
any evidence where coops are successful, we do see evidence that MSNBC still hasn't been successful at removing all the shills for corporate facsists.
Watch this clip of Lawrence O’Donnell put the smack down on Peter Schiff over Medicare.
Pretty good stuff.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2435
saw no smackdown. Schiff is right.
He's a dunderhead. He is an ignoramous wrapped around an a-hole. I wonder who pays his salary because he doesn't know shit from shinola. Schiff advocates less regulation of the market. Well, sir, the reason America is in the present economic straights it's in -- other than the fact that Bushco sucked trillions of dollars from the coffers in the form of phony wars and phony economic crises to cover massive transfers of wealth to the wealthy, but, the reason America's economy is in a shambles is because the unregulated market saw an opportunity to stop caring because there was no accountability, after all the lawyers would fight them for years until the companies went bone dry. Schiff isn't right about anything.
you think that there was an "unregulated market", hahahahaha. That's a good one. You're too funny.
because, this whole dialog, governed as it is by insurance, pharma and provider corporations, is making me sick!
You will HAVE Single Payer.
You will PAY if you're Single. You will PAY for your Single dependents. You will Pay for your Single spouse.
ya know what else shrum finds acceptable?
he also finds it perfectly acceptable to skew democratic elections thru lies, innuendos and distortions. (see, bolivia)
shrum's opinions are not worth anything, as they historically emanated from the pocket books of his clients. now, he has since folded up his opinion-for-rent tent, but i don't trust this guy. he is a for-profit political operative, nothing more.
also, consider shrum's take on health care reform... oops, sorry, i mean health insurance reform: "By late fall, I expect we will look back at the passage of health insurance reform..."
shrum, devine, carville, matalin, rogers, hanretty, nelson, etc. LOVE the status quo, and establishment politics--it is their cashcow.
and those like him are the reason the Dems are always on the back foot.
I hired Barack Obama to create a government-run, socialized health care system. Bob Schrum and Jonathan Alter can suck my ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC9v-K4OawU
Then won't their chickens come home to roost?
I plan to work at my health co-op every T-Th from 3:30 to 5:30
because that is when then Generic drug truck makes it's delivery.
I want my meds fresh.
If I can't make it on Wednesday will you pick up a basket of fresh meds for me? Thanks so much.
but you're no Rush Limbaugh and I ain't your houskeeper.
Score your own damend meds.
Okay. Just thought I would give it a shot. I don't know what a "damend" med is but if it's free I'll take a case. Hummm, now that I read the word again it sounds like something you would take because you are ready for the dam end to it all.
I should have said DameND. That is the drug for women who pee too much and don't want to get birth defects from handling the men folks pee pills. But the typo was just part of the problem. DameND is not generic. I apologize.
Maybe you frommed up becuse you touched the wrong pill. I have no idea what DameND is but I don't think I need it. I bet you can find it in the purse of every female attending the town hall bash-a-ramas.
President Bait & Switch finds co-opc acceptable, too. That's why he won't draw a line in the sand on the public option.
We're getting co-ops people. We've always been going to get co-ops; they just want you to believe that "This is the best we could do." Wake up and smell the con game. This is what a pay-to-play government gets you.
So now we run things by these two talking heads and if it's okeedokee with them it's okeedokee with us? I don't think so! That's not the way we do things in this country. We don't allow to blow hards to say what will or will not work for the rest of us. Who the fu*k cares what either of them think?
Look at this crap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w
This shenanigan is getting out of control.
My suggestions.
Congress people. READ THE DAMN BILL!
congress meet with your constituents.
Don't shut poeple out.
Media. shut up about Right Wing, teabagger crap because there are angree democrats at the meetings and now some Democrats are getting arrested. Be objective. I tell you, it has been interesting.
earlier you said if Obama just released his long form birth certificate this would all go away. Why bother to read the bill?
of troll, my brain ain't dead yet. Alert Bill Frist son.
Even though my insurance has lapsed, please don't let them yank the life support.
Go recruit at regressive blogs. Start at Free Republic.
it is the final version, which I doubt will be posted online. All the 1000 page version contains are proposals, most of which will not be in the final version. It is just something to distract those who are not too bright, or who are desperate for some prop to use to distract from the real issue. Single payer. That or nothing, as only the insurance companies and those who get paid by the insurance companies will benefit from anything else. Oh, I almost forgot. Big Pharma will benefit, too.
your effort to skew the fact that rightwing groups (CPR, Freedomworks, etc.) are leading the anti-democratic effort to shut down townhall debates has been duly noted.
Consider Former Congressman Dick Armey. Several far right foundations and the multitrillion dollar health-insurance industry have teamed up with him to organize the far right foot soldiers of the Republican Party to intimidate people speaking on behalf of health-care reform. They are using my old shock troops -- given many of these folks were first energized by the Evangelical pro-life movement that my late father and I started in the 1970s. What we did to clinics they are now doing to congressmen and others speaking out for health care reform.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141833...
Do you mean show some of the good coming out of the meetings by the teabaggers sitting and asking reasonable questions? Geezus, get a clue. They won't be reasnable.
This is one thing that is making some of you look like fools.
http://thedanashow.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/m...
many of those conservatives sites are just sitting back with their feet on the table just laughing at this whole thing.
I beg your pardon. I don't just look like a fool, sometimes I play one on the internet.
but one who listens to the C-list hosts. I feel ashamed.
No. Someone posted this on another forum and I linked to it. They too are laughing at how ridiculous this is.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/fig...
it makes you look like a fool if you think that these people aren't manipulated by healthcare interests.
rallies. They lost the election. They can still make noise but they will never vote for a Democrat.
Would you bet money on that?
Maby the guy wearing the flag shirt and maybe the guy wearin the go army cap BUT see what you did?????
You said "Actually they look like the people who attended McCain-Palin rally's. You are Sterotypeing!!!
Most Democrats, don't go around wearing ponytails and drive Toyota Prius hybrids.
This is where you, the media and congress are getting themselves into trouble.
Who say they should look a certain way or dress a certain way to vote Democrat of not?
Now prove how they voted. Hell, prove that people who turn up to these things live in the districts of the representatives they're interrupting. Long form birth certificates, voter registration cards, photo i.d. and a picture of the ballots they cast.
Are you saying that is absolutely impossible that any person who voted Democrat in the last recent elections would be against the health care reform bill?
Also are you saying that all these people are not real democrats?
.
Alot of us would love to debate the points, but we wouldn't be the one's shouting slogans to close down our opportunity to do so.
Reviewing fashion is not "Sterotypeing" anyone.
They all look alike.
Haven't you seen the baseball caps with a skinny ponytails attached to them? Many bikers have ponytails, and they usually go the Chuck Norris route. Hybrids? What is your point. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I believe the point was they sound and act like the same people who supported McCain-Palin. It's subtle, so I can understand why you didn't get it.
The point I was making was that you can't look at a person and tell that they are a Democrat or not a Democrat.
If they have an Obama shirt on you can make a pretty good guess which party they support.
I think it is in poor judgement to look at the news and look at pictures and immediately say, Oh Actually they look like the people who attended McCain-Palin rallies they must be angry teabaggers.
There has been yelling but There has been civil discourse at many of these meetings. Have you been to one? It is not a pure scream fest. There are alot of people getting up and asking question when it is their turn at the microphones.
Are you saying GOP operatives cannot wear an Obama T-shirt? And it is what they say and what is on their signs that lead one to think they are like McCain-Palin supporters. You have at least one very, very bad habit with respect to your trying to form arguments: You assume way too much. Faulty premises. Your downfall. Okay, one of your downfalls.
It's all drummed up by corporations, Paulist.
"This is the one thing" Is that you Glenn Beck?
Medicare for every American now. Let any of the Teabaggers sign away their Medicare benefits any time they want to and go with public insurance. Make it easy for them.
sorry, "private" insurance
It seems our moderator in chief just isn't up to the task. I must admit I bought into it all. He sounds good, but when it comes down to crunch time he just doesn't have it. He can look serious and nod, but what is real leadership? Some of the stuff Hillary was saying looks like reality. Sorry Hillary.
Carps
Carp died in England. Guess he walked across the pond in PUMA's.
I just saw on msnbc that Harry Reid said the GOP is being run by a talk show host. I think he was talking about Rush and his comments comparing the President to Hitler. I bet if he was talking about Rush that Beck will be bummed that he's not running the party.
using Rush's language.
I do too. Rush has been around as long as dirt and nothing like this happened, but Beck is on tv and radio every day pushing for shit to hit the fan. Of course he wants people to turn to god and if the shit hits the fan I guess it's god's doing.
Rush believes in Rush and the oxycotin high.
If you poke a little hole in rush, ego will spew out for the next 48 hours.
And must he be anchored in place to keep him from flying around injuring people?
He actually is a big hole.
Do you remember the Bill Cosby bit about messing with your belly button until it comes out and you fly around the room as all the air inside you escapes?
I've like Cosby since he introduced "cubits" to my
vocabulary.
Let me date myself here (not that there's anything wrong with that and I can date whom I please) but I remember when Cosby's comedy work came out on records. We would have some drinks and listen to them and laugh until we cried.
... HMOs like Co-Ops, or at least second cousins to them?
and second husbands or wives.
... accompanied by intimidating body-guard-types should go to these Townhalls and set up a little table outside looking like something official 'Secial Socurity' looking signs and asking people who appear to look past 65 for their names suggesting that they may lose their Medicare.
Maybe also have someone video tape cars in parking lots.
Am I nuts or what?
Am I wrong when I say that almost all those on video look like white racists? Maybe even rednecks?
I saw one black man, standing in a sea of handclapping racists looking around.
Where are the other than whites?
Pat Buchanan even said the other morning while describing the baggers that they were a group of "white people" who were angry or upset or whatever. I think he didn't mean to say it, it just leaped out of his racist mouth.
Pat B. wished it was, with his Confederate Jim Crow cramugin ass.
Here is a video of a black man in MO. getting beat down by hired union thugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w
The SEIU- Service Employees International Union- hosted the event.
Trolls just cannot help from slipping into the vernacular.
I call anyone a thug trampling one someones free speech.
I guess in 8 years or so, if the republicans get in power and there is a situation like that and a group of republican thugs beat the shit out of a Democrat for using his first amendment you'd be saying the same thing or something else?
are preventing anyone from speaking, elected officials and their real constituents (not the ones the Thugs ship in from neighbouring red areas).
And in sticking up for your own thugs, you are a thug as well. Because you support the initial screaming memees. They are exactly like you -- no interest in discussion, just a pack of screaming assholes trying to cram corporatist bullshit up everyone's ass.
I think you are a paid commenter, paid to disseminate the industry viewpoint on blogs.
What have I said that was coporatist?
You are living in a delusion if you think that EVERY PERSON that voted Democorat or calls themselves a democrat thinks JUST LIKE YOU and LOVES this health care bill and wants congress to not read the bill and other bills and vote for it.
Stop living in a fantasy world. That was my whole point. Just about all of you as soon as you seen a white person yelling at a democrat you automatically think that they are a teabagger, 912 member, republican, birther, or What ever.
You keep one thinking that and saying that. The country is not devided amound hardline Dems amd repubs.. There is a lot a grey. Stop fooling yourself by saying that everone against the bill must not be a democrat.
don't necessarily vote the ticket, and did not vote for Obama.
I have no idea where you come up with the "You are living in a delusion...vote for it" paragraph. Your nearly incoherent ramblings are drawn from a load of wrong conclusions by you. Not surprising as I would expect any corporatist zombie would throw a load of non topical bs into the mix.
I'm not the fantasist. it's you. For starters I don't believe for one moment any of the corporately authored talking points you are 'PonitN' out. But you do. You are the one that believes in fantasy.
barely spell? Your specious arguments are pathetic and laughable. I would agree with Miss Kitty that you are a paid shill, but I rather think you are an ignorant true believer without a dictionary or even a high school education. Come back when you get both.
The forum drew an overflow crowd of several hundred to Bernard Middle School gym in south St. Louis County. Dozens of people, many carrying signs about the health care debate, were kept out because of the turnout. The back and forth between factions within the crowd created a carnival-like atmosphere inside and out between members of the movement opposing President Barack Obama's policies and groups who came to show support for the president's proposals.
Here is another video of them selectively allow some people in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ZJhR3T4aw
or were they there to prevent others from taking part in the democratic process, by screaming and shouting down other participants who are attempting to share thoughts in an orderly manner with their elected officials?
BTW, you are not very skilled at defending the indefensible. That has been the purview of Rove and Cheney, and quite frankly, we see through their bullshit; you haven't got a patch on either of them, smarts-wise.
You assholes should be ashamed of everything you've done to destroy the country since before St Ronnie acted as figurehead for the big money men propping his shitty sad arse up.
You are a minion and a dupe.
My money is on just dupe.
He's one of those guys that turns down the free toaster for the "mystery box". How do you throw in with HCA or Halliburton or McMegaChurch? You've got to realize that the money flows one-way in those places. Do you take your paycheck in company lottery tickets too?
Don't worry, PointyChump, when you are down and out, that pain you feel eminating from your back sphincter, that's just the free market pounding you.
Hate to tell you this chum...
But unions are part of the traditional base of the Democratic party.
And I think something of the idology of the poster of the video (who likely edited it as well), is reflected in the commenters comments. They're whining like their victims because they didn't have their chance to shout down another meeting.
And again their equating the Left with Naziism, which is a basic misunderstanding of history.
And to shout empty slogans as a group is to prevent their individual voices being heard, so obviously that's just a shoddy defense.
Most of the unions in this country have sold out a long time ago. Look at our industries. Most of them are gone. Many of ther unions now a days just handle dishing out crumbs to their workers.
But I'll tell you a little secret about centralization of power what ever medium (Fascism, socialism, communism)
The trick is to build up the right(corporate private side)and force all the gains and wealth to them, and then pludge the nation into debt and force the debt upon the people and then split the people and have them fight each other. Have the lower class fight against the middle class and have the ruling class laugh all the way to the bank.
Divide and conquer. The middle class is the ruling classes biggest enemy.
You must be terribly disappointed. What you fail to realize is that corporate America is destroying the middle class, and relegating them to the bottom sector. Duh! Go back to whatever crap you are reading, and try to get some facts. Your speculation and revealing "secrets" is in vain. We all know better. And what the hell is a "pludge?" But, thank you for all that insider information. We appreciate your business.
his tried and true supporters out of every single appearance he ever made, including the GOP convention in NYC. Protesters had to be kept blocks away. If you are so concerned about freedom and doing the right thing, you would have been protesting that.
Interesting.
I talk about Bush's crimes and his family history with a certain 1930' 40's dictator and this happends.
Let me say this.
I hope that the present Administration with their super majority investigate the Bush crime family.
To clarify your point, the black guy lying on the street in pain was one of the SEIU. The other SEIU were trying to force back a dangerous mob, so he could regain his feet.
One guy (presumably part of the mob) was literally standing over the guy, and probably was the one who struck him, although the video started with him already on the ground.)
I read an excellent article titled "Consumer Choice" at http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2009/01/consume... (the Healthcare Renewal Blogsite) last January. It illustrates why co-ops, while sounding quite good, are truly only good for maintaining the status quo and for a few, select individuals who will delve into the situation and "do their homework." After reading this article, I bit the bullet, and did my homework. After more than 2 decades with BC/BS (federal), I found I could save almost $100/month on premiums and receive about the same coverage. Why did I wait so long? It was easier to "do what I had always done" . . . and procrastinate. I always promised myself I would look at the "choices" next year. But when next year rolled around, the print was too small, the comparisons difficult, the documentation copious. It was just "easier" to stay with BC/BS. Now, with a savings of perhaps $1200 a year do you think I'm kicking myself. YES! But how many others (a significant majority, I'll bet) have done and will continue to do the same thing. The co-ops IMO are merely diversionary . . . a sop for the masses.
Media elite, well insured. These Keith Olbermann regulars (or former regulars) were just corporate shills all along, Armstrong Williams with more discretion.
I was wondering what Mr. Williams was up to, and I found his blog:
http://www.armstrongw.com/
I guess corporatewhore.com was taken.
It seems that Jon and John are in violent agreement about the desired outcome. Check out Alter's snarky Newsweek shot at the insurance industry. He's just seems to be saying that 7/8 of a loaf is better than an empty cupboard.
Not if the insurance companies score at our expense.
Hop over to Kos and read that the beck 9-12 gang are taking credit for some of the bullshit last night in Tampa. Here's the link for ya.
I don't understand why people could be against national healthcare. The elderly don't fight medicare. Why are the medicare crowd out there fighting a basically medicare plan for everyone else? My best guess is the standard GOP mind-think: I got mine-try to get yours, if you can, if you are worthy. I don't think that way. My thoughts are more like: I got mine--come here let me help you get yours irregardless if you are worthy.
And Canada and Europeans with their nationalized healthcare- you dont see them running to get rid of it. GOP and the Health care Industry know if people taste a bit of nationalized health care they will like it. And I like how Canadians and the European contries fighting with us in the Two wars feel about being called Socialists.
both sides of his mouth? Did anyone else hear Alter refer to the bills in Congress as wildly 'radical' for eliminating insurance companies denials for pre-existing conditions (as if that was the problem with health insurance companies) and insuring many millions, but then in the next breath he said how truly little change is contained in the proposals. In other words he's shilling for the insurance companies, and not telling it like it is, which is to go public option or bust.
We should definitely go public option or bust because without it there is no reform. All the plans, particularly the Baucus b.s., will do nothing but enrich insurance companies. That is why reform is nothing short of the elimination of private health insurance companies. And, if reform doesn't happen, it will further entrench the idea that our Republic no longer functions.
Sometimes something is worse than nothing.
Alter is hardly a shill for insurance industry. Check out his Newsweek pieces. We all agree the system is broken, and fixing it is going to be hard. It's clear he's interested in changing the system, and exploring a wide range of options is often a path to a workable solution.
Yes lets go with Co-Op plan: A Blue State/Red State Co-op. The Blue states can buy Drugs from Canada, and the Red states willnot- because so many Canadians are dying every day from tainted drugs. The Blue States can use their vastly larger numbers to negotiate better Medicare Prices, you know like Walmart does with its vendors. But the Red states can pay what ever prices the Insurance companies say. Hey while we are at it the Blue states can have a Government option and the Red states will not. There, Healthcare reform solved.
I would like to form my own Health insurance provider Company- it has to be private, not publicaly offered, to avoid Wall Street Pressure on "Medical Ratios". My business model would be to spend 95 cents of every dollar taken in back on health care, you know like it was back in the Early 1990's and not like the 83 cents of every dollar that they spend now. Heck I bet could make $500,000 dollars a year as CEO.
Bob Shrum is a Fat out of Touch Idiot that has never done
anything for the Democratic Party. The Two people that have done
more Damage to Progressives are Shrum and Terri Mculuff.
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