Death, Lies and Videotape
[Caution: graphic video not suitable for work or children. Full-length version here.]
On the fifth of April, WikiLeaks released a classified US military video from an Apache helicopter gunship as it killed over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad in 2007, including two Reuters new staff, as well as seriously wounding two young children. One of the journalists, gravely wounded in the attack, was then shot in a second barrage as he tried to crawl away, and his body run over by a Humvee. Since the attack, Reuters had been attempting to obtain this video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success. Now it is public for the first time.
Wikileak’s organisers were given the footage by an unnamed source, which they then decrypted and posted on-line. So far, the Pentagon has had no response. The high-quality video, according to BBC’s Adam Brookes in Washington, appears to be authentic, and includes the recording of the pilot’s radio transmission and troops on the ground. Wikileaks has also published a statement from Reuters news editor-in-chief David Schlessinger saying that the video was ‘graphic evidence of the dangers involved in war journalism and the tragedies that can result’.
Wikileaks has complained of surveillance and harassment by the US and other governments, primarily for their role in leaking documents on sensitive subjects, from the assassination of human rights lawyers in Nairobi, photos of murders committed in Tibet followed by a mass attack on Swedish servers by Chinese computers in retaliation, threats by the head of Germany’s BNP of prosecution over a report of CIA involvement in Kosovo, and more. This tiny blogsite, which won Amnesty International’s 2009 media award, is nearly broke and has depended on donations from human rights groups, journalists, technology experts and simply concerned individuals for survival, a ludicrous game of David and Goliath of the internet.
But it seems someone within the DoD or US Army Counterintelligence or CIA or somewhere still believes in the public’s right to know what our elected government is up to. According to documents leaked to Wikileaks, even our own government has conspired to shut down the organization, including exposing sources and identifying whistleblowers and retaliating by termination of employment, criminal prosecution, defamation of the organization to weaken its credibility. The lessons of Valerie Plame and the Freedom of Information Act be damned.
Be warned. This video is not for the faint-hearted. I watched the whole thing. It made me feel ill, but I watched it all. It's the least I could do for those people who lost their lives. At one point you can even see one of the men from the van trying to rescue the wounded journalist looking up at the helicopter, he knew it was there. He knew what he was risking, and tried to help anyway. The bravery of that man is astounding. And he died. If it were left up to our own government, he would have died without you or me or anyone else ever knowing, our ignorance the biggest weapon in any military arsenal. If this ungodly, horrible war is ever to end, it is not only the public’s right to know what we have done and are still doing in Iraq, and Afghanistan, it is our responsibility to demand to know.
What truly bothers me is the absolute callousness of the conversation going on in the Apache helicopter. Beyond the 'fucking prick' and the 'bastards' comments, it's the laughter, particularly during the shooting as if it's all just a video game, cheering each other on as the wounded journalist crawls on the ground, willing him to reach for a ‘weapon’ so they can shoot him again, laughing when his body is run over by a military truck. The comment when the crew realized children have been wounded was shocking: ‘Well, it’s their own fault for bringing their kids to a battle.'
Bringing their kids to a battle? Those children live there! This wasn't a 'battlefield' - it was just an ordinary neighbourhood that got pasted by an American helicopter, twice. We brought the war to them. Where the hell were the kids supposed to have been? Loma Linda? Ann Arbor? Tampa?
Worse, this is a double tragedy: Those men in that helicopter are our sons. Our brothers. Fathers of innocent children just like those they’ve just shot to hell. What are we doing to our own people that we are turning them into such monsters? What kind of military do we now have that 'rules of engagement' means anyone carrying a camera bag, or walking down a street with friends, or driving a van trying to rescue wounded neighbours, is an 'insurgent' and thus fair game?
I'm not so concerned that the military punishes these soldiers for what they've done; it's obvious they were doing exactly what the military expected of them. You and I can sit in the faraway safety of our living rooms and clearly see that other than the two journalists, no one else was carrying anything – no weapons, no RPGs, nothing. The men in the street weren’t hiding or acting suspicious, they were a bunch of mates just strolling down the street, relaxed and chatting to each other. The guy behind the building is looking up at the circling helicopter, but there are no shots being fired from the ground. None.
To give as much benefit of the doubt as I humanly can, there was hostile activity going on in the area, and it is possible the guys in the helicopter may not have been lying; they may have seen what they expected to see, what they wanted to see - AK47s and RPGs that didn't exist - asked for and got permission from distant superiors who had no way to judge the threat other than from what they were told by the helicopter crew. Then they killed everyone in sight. Did it by the book.
It's just that the book is rotten.
That is the true horror - our military is becoming no better than Blackwater. Kill anyone you want, no problem, we'll cover it up and make excuses. Including shipping two small children we've shot to an inadequately staffed local hospital where they'll most likely conveniently die, rather than to a US Army hospital where they have a better chance of survival… and telling their side of the story to an American media.
No wonder the Iraqis hate us so much. No wonder the real insurgents are so relentless. No wonder so many terrorists feel justified in killing as many civilians as they can - we're killing them just as indiscriminately. No wonder our soldiers are coming back with mental problems. War isn't pretty, war isn't clear-cut, war isn't fair. But this isn't war - this is just slaughter for the hell of it.
Nor does it seem our military is going to do right, either by our soldiers or those civilians murdered by troops with carte blanche to shoot anything that moves, not until there's enough of a public outcry for our spineless politicians to start asking the hard questions.
Like… where are all those imaginary AK47s and RPGs? Did the children survive? Who were those other friends of the Reuters journalists who died because they were walking down the wrong street at the wrong time? Why, if we’re the good guys, is our own government trying so hard to keep this hidden from us?
And, more chilling, how much more don’t we know about?
[Ed.: Be sure to read Dan Froomkin and Digby for more on this.]



Ignorance is strength. War is peace. Slavery is freedom.
And shit is shinola.
(This was the text on the official convention t-shirt for the 1984 World Science Fiction Convention in Anaheim, CA. The front of the shirt showed a THX-1138 style police officer with the caption, 'The Thought Police Are Watching You.' Convention members were advised that wearing the shirt into Disneyland would get them thrown out of both the park and the convention.)
Glenn Greenwald here
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Chris Floyd here
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Glenn Greenwald here
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Glenn Greenwald here
Recent slaughter of civilians in Afghanistan with even more dire implications (if that is possible) than is seen in the video here.
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Glenn Greenwald here
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Dawinder Sidhu here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I think we better get out of there as of yesterday. We really screwed up big time. And the people that caused this roam free.
Chris Floyd here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
What are your heroes, the Democratic Party, doing to stop it?
this happened during the Bush administration.
[Knock off the personal insults ron. You know better-Sitemonitor]
you think this does not happen today ?
[You too. Flag personal insults, don't respond with the same-Sitemonitor]
put them in jail. Maybe a little accoutability would go a long way.
but Obama and Pelosi don't agree...
It's still happening is because your hero sent us there in 2003. Remember the guy who lied and you guys still stood up for him while our men and women died for him. I think his name is Bush. The worst President in American history.
is intended to be a factual statement
That Bush is a hero too ? My name is Big John and I don't think you remember who I am...
You believe Ron Paul is an honest politician, 'nuff said.
is intended to be a factual statement
I would be happier if Paul led the R and Kucinich led the D, And I think Nader would be a better Pres than any of them.
[How far off topic are we now? Stop it-Sitemonitor]
Really ? ? ? ?
Just trying to be different for difference sake. Whatever,
[How far off topic are we now? Stop it-Sitemonitor]
is intended to be a factual statement
the ones who created and continue this Illegal War of Aggression continue to be untouchable. The powerful protect the powerful, witness Pinochet and Jack Straw's sending him off to die in his stolen riches.
I agree w Big John!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS3ErDN50Qk
'We, the People'............rimshot................hahahahahaha!
but to stop it you have to show that it is happening today.
It's still happening.
Like those three women (two of them pregnant) who were bound, gagged, and shot by "insurgents" as "honor killings" in Afghanistan. Except that they weren't. Obama's DOD made it all up.
They were murdered by American troops.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_green...
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Obama's DoD? The DoD and the Pentagon are their own quagmire that typically takes a decade or more to flush. You may as well call it the Reagan or Bush Sr. DoD.
sitemonitor, when I see blatant statements that are not relevent to what happened, I get carried away.
do to start it?
touche
is intended to be a factual statement
I am an independent the R's can kiss my ass too.
Get over your independent self.
is intended to be a factual statement
I have been arguing that Dems should wedge the teabaggers. But that of course would mean restoring haebus corpus, closing torture camps like but not only Gitmo and ending foreign wars but the Dems will have none of that because the Ds and the Rs amount to the same thing in practice.
I am for civil rights, GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT ?
how the teabaggers are going to take getting wedgees.
your attitude. I don't think you'll find many people here who will defend Obama on any of these things so I think it's odd you'd come in here looking for a fight.
Big John, are you 4'3"?
[Please abandon this nonsense. No need to whip em out. Return to the topic-Sitemonitor]
My original question was directed at C+L proper cause Amato and Neiwart will defend Obama and the D's at all costs. For the record I am 6'4.5"
someone voted for as it's pertinent to what was posted.
However, I'll knock it off.
Cue the Kabuki....
BINGO !
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
as this one and the previous one earlier about the helicopter massacre?
I see this as a good thing, maybe it will reflect back to the sheeple and wake them up a little.
"what...(is)the Democratic Party, doing to stop it?"
Cue the Kabuki....
The vast majority of the teabaggers are Republicans who have supported, from the start, these wars and the methods employed to fight them.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
there is in fact a minority who do not support these wars and methods, that is a wedge.
...who- even if the moderate-to-conservative Dems stepped up and did the right thing to end the wars and restore habeas corpus, etc.- would still be all teabaggy about taxes and health care reform.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
but it is still a wedge in a better direction than doing nothing, I say end the wars and give us back our freedoms.
back to your original thesis, what are the Dems supposed to do? Take on the Pentagon? Be labeled unpatriotic by the main$tream "news" media? It's fairly astonishing that this video got any coverage in the first place. If the Niger uranium/atta-in-Prague/aluminum tubes/Downing Street memo/greeted as liberators stories would've gotten this kind of coverage, we might not be in Iraq in the first place.
A wedge separates those who believe some of the same things. In this case, Paul would be the only benefactor of driving a wedge into the teabag movement. Hell, he drove this wedge during the primaries in '08, and got about 13% of the vote. In the primaries. Counting those who would have voted for him had he been fronting a white separatist party. That's not an effective wedge.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
but it is off topic on this thread
although Beck--Palin would be more of a gut buster.
..America is great and cannot lose. They still think we're fighting WWII.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
The Republicans started it but the Democrats are keeping it going. They are all culpable for the war crime atrocities. Slaughtering innocent people and laughing about it is a Christian religion problem, not a Political Party problem.
"we" are imperialist assholes.....
Cue the Kabuki....
Only about 60% of Americans are terrorist simpathizers when it's Christians committing the crimes. There's something around 30% of us who have been against these crimes against humanity since the start.
Outrage and the end.
is intended to be a factual statement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc9zcN4p7PQ
"Culture is not your friend."
This scandal-- and hopefully it will become a major scandal-- reminds me of video I saw from this story back in like 2003 from Afghanistan where civilians were packed into cargo canisters. That story seems to have been buried too.
So depressing.
Wikileaks needs our support, it seems.
..torture videos.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
How can you be an "insurgent" in your own country?
Seems like nothing more than a label which justifies murder. Kinda like "militant."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
An insurgent is rebel, someone who wants to use violent means to overthrow the country's recognized government.
A RESISTANCE FIGHTER is a person who takes up arms against a foreign invader and resists by violent means.
We are clearly fighting the latter and have been all along. Al-Qaeda is at best 5% of the people we've fought, much less if your'e just counting bodies.
These resistance fighters are not the terrorists. That's us.
And for those who wish to argue about methods such as killing collaborators, bombing civilans, etc., read some history about what previous resistance groups have done...and that's just OUR history.
We are so blind to what is happening to us.
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum. -Havelock Ellis
Fucking right! The Iraqi people have also been fighting for their homes, their children, their lives, and their country against terrorist invaders, and because they fight for their lives the Christanic terrorists label them "insurgents."
What would these fucking Christian piles of shit think they themselves should be called if the United States was invaded and its people slaughtered and they fought back? Also "insurgents."
Same fucking thing.
....than terrorist, as the military knew they could not get away with calling these, um, patriots, terrorists for too long.
I think Patriots might be appropriate for many of them. In Afghanistan too--they want the foreign invader (us) out. Can't say I blame them.
yeah and the rest of the world hates you for your freedoms!
you people are all f*cking as*holes.
why? cause you are americans and this is your government that represents YOU.
because we're aholes, or both. Please clarify.
learn to read, typical yankee
up a claim you can't because it's been deleted. Speaks volumes.
I guess I'll be deleted now too. Learn to phrase.
That with the freedom is called irony... I guess he meant the second.
That's another thing. Most of the world already knows why the United States is hated and foght around the world. It's because the United States is the world's worset terrorist State bar none.
"School of the Americas" is only one aspect of the world's worset terrorist State, but the US's crimes against humanity in the "Muddle Yeast" are equal to the atrocities the US commits in South America.
The informed world sees what our country does in our names, and its victims are fully justified in their own defense against what these terrorists do to them.
this government is a bunch of bought and sold whores, and they don't represent the sheeple, but they do represent the elites, wealthy and corporations. There are a few exceptions, a handful, but they get marginalized by the MainStreamWhoreMedia, whose job it is to manufacture consent.
So our lousy educational system and mass media are turning the country to shit, but some of us are resisting, which is why we are on line at C&L for countless hours, when we could be out getting some exercise, or watching the Red Sox in the local pub, or something more fun.
If you are from Latin America, well, I lived in Argentina and spent time in Chile and Uruguay, and saw that it was true that yankee corps exploit the people there. My girlfriend has a credit card with the same balance out on it that I had on mine, but she paid 3 times the interest, penalties and fees that I did on the same amount. That was one of many examples. I believe that the banks crashed the Argentine economy a few years ago, and made off with millions. They do that here too now.
bomb blasts in baghdad
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/860439...
karzai quitting
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5435336,...
trouble in peshawar
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5435336,...
i expect some pretty tough talk to come out of washington, we may even launch a couple dozen extra drone attacks. of course with the drones, the operators get up from the console, and all the data stays right there on the computer; we don't even get to see the brides nice pretty dress before we blow her to smithereens, much less any cool leaked videos
let me guess "this is not what america is about", "we will identify those responsible", i know blame it on NATO!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8603573.stm
people, we could defend our country from "terrorists" without this war, we would just have to import less stuff, and actually manufacture things here at home. we do not have to fight these wars.
but this is not going to happen, because the multi-nationals who are our new sovereigns don't want it to; they need people trained in our universities to go home and enforce the will of the world bank, it is much easier to have the natives suppress their own people. i don't see why we have our troops over there anyway, couldn't we just hire an army? one that speaks the local language?
oh well, guess i will go to work, i can catch bloody barack obamas pious pronouncements at 10.
Dowsing rod bomb detectors very expensive and totally worthless.
James Randi famous exposer of frauds and fakes has been exposing these crooks for some time.
!
Cue the Kabuki....
.
Though he could have expressed himself a bit less dickishly. We're still in Iraq, we're doubling down in Afghanistan. Some of you seem to think that since Obama is in office this won't happen. The only way to end it is to end the wars.
I was dickish because I remember all too well the euphoria here when Obama was elected. I posted a fair bit trying to point out that the problems are structural and changing parties and Presidents would change nothing except style. I would usually close post saying to remember my name and that I told you. Well, as you can imagine I took a lot of crap for that. Still do.
..for the purposes that w stated: to get obl dead or alive. Once he let him go, i.e., escape from Tora Bora (and we should've turned the mountains into craters to achieve that end), I knew many of us would be calling for w's head..er, impeachment. When we went into Iraq, we postulated on the first day, what would happen when they didn't find WMD's? Would they consider w a war criminal? Well...here we are, no trials, no arrests and continued atrocities.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
I still remember what happened after 9/11. The US demanded that the Taliban hand over OBL. The Taliban demanded evidence before handing him over. The US reacted by denying the need to supply any evidence and invaded.
To this day, I haven't seen the evidence that OBL and Al Qaida had organized 9/11. Asserting something doesn't necessarily make it true.
I also always wondered why the Bushies resisted the formation of the 9/11 commission, and why Bush and Cheney would not testify separately under oath.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I also always wondered why the Bushies resisted the formation of the 9/11 commission, and why Bush and Cheney would not testify separately under oath.
Exactly. I don't know what happened on 9/11, but those of us who wonder are considered kooks. To which my answer is, like yours, "Why did the Bush administration pointedly ask Congress not to investigate the attacks?" (This was in January 2002, I think, well before the 9/11 commission was eventually formed.) And, as you point out, that strange set-up for Bush's testimony, with Cheney holding his hand and no notes allowed to be taken, etc. - what was that?
..coffers of the MIC. Its all about $$$'s. 9/11 was an opportunity for the MIC and w to transfer wealth to their friends and lovers. Your theory rests on some conspiracy which cannot be substantiated.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
. . . who saw corporate control of both parties as a problem.
Thank you for your wisdom; us lesser minds should be forever grateful.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
you know what it was like.
Too many partisan DEMS on this site who live in a fantasy world where democracy is real.
IT IS AN ILLUSION.
Does anyone really think that the people who are really in control (corporations, miltary, clergy) would EVER allow the common Joe to pull a lever and determine policy?
NEVER. There's too much money at stake.
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum. -Havelock Ellis
Times have change, because at one time comments suggesting that 9/11 was a conspiracy was deleted from here at C/L, now we have movies and books, and scholars disseminating the lies from the Bush administration, that warrants a second look at the fact.
One thing for Sure "War" is the absolute communication of Chaos and really should never be a proud thing to be in, but a sad state of failure of negotiating for compromise and peace. When you go war with a country it should be noted what a failure the politician were at their job, and give them a D- on their report card. It is fair to say Bush was the worse President for failure to keep peace.
I think it was also premature to give Obama the Nobel Peace prize, and Obama rightly pointed out that he didn't deserve it. This shit is going to happen in any war, there is no such thing as a orderly war.
If anything, President Obama and his terrorist regime are even worse than the Bush terrorist regime. Obama at least has an IQ greater than 70, far exceeded the average Republidiot. Also Obama has ADULTS in his administration, something that the Bush regime did not.
That makes the Obama regime's crimes against humanity worse than the Bush regime's.
Obama is a terrorist butcher, worse than Bush was.
...and that Nobel Peace prize was way too premature.
or a preemptive nudge to do the right thing.
Time would tell...
I'm as opposed to both our undeclared wars as anybody. Yet still I could at least have some respect for the military if they owned up to their mistakes and held people accountable rather than covering them up every time. When was the last time the U.S. military came out on their own and admitted to an atrocity? Never. Until they realize that cover-ups are akin to treason because they tear down the U.S.A. and undermine the stated goals and mission, I can have no positive regard for the military as a whole.
Not coincidentally, another drug-producing country like Afghanistan.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
Amazing that a bulky product like unprocessed opium is impossible to track when its being moved around Afghanistan (from fields to factories), and the processed stuff is similarly invisible to our airborne and ground forces there.
Whats not invisible (Google image search) is the photographs of NATO troops patrolling and guarding poppy fields.
America the beautiful ! The beacon of light in the world ! Crusaders for peace , justice and freedom ! Talk about propaganda and non applicable bull shit ! We are invaders , occupiers ! We are Imperialists , trouble makers , sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong , stirring up trouble ... all over the world . How many people have we
killedmurdered in Iraq and Afghanistan ? How many have we maimed ? How many refugees have we created ? How many innocent have suffered at our hands ? If this pisses you off you just can't handle the truth and the facts , you are deep in the pretend world .I honestly thought we would have learned a lesson from Vietnam. But obviously not. Of course our history is one of destroying people and cultures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Still, if we didn't have war criminals in the last administration willing to lie and fabricate evidence to bring us to war - I don't thing we'd be there. At least I hope not.
..the coffers of the MIC. There is NO profit in victory only in endless war.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
then what's taking so long with Cuba? I really thought we would have "normalized" with Cuba during the Clinton administration, isn't it about time?
is down with the corporate cash. Castro is not. When Castro dies and the hotels and casinos and sugar plantations and segregated beaches are allowed back in, then we will "normalize" relations.
destroy Cuba. It is the one small country (they're all small, the one's we invade) that has successfully resisted the US boot on the neck, so they will need to be treated as the enemy until they capitulate.
This is the USA BULLY mentality, brutal, primitive, barbarian, and pervasive through all of the ruling elite. The same mentality they use on the little people, with the cops, prisons and economic slavery.
hillary clinton.
guess who voted for the iraqi war resolution?
hillary clinton
and if bloody barack was in the senate at that time, he would have done the same.
i swore after clinton and his rampage in the balkans that i would never vote again, then bloody barack obama fooled me, how pathetic.
as far as respect for the military goes, and i am a veteran, they are responsible for their own conduct. if ordered to do something illegal, or if they believe a war is illegal, they have a right to refuse to obey orders, then they will have to face the consequences.
these wars are illegal, immoral, and unjust, and unless the president immediately comes up with some truly legal rationale for what we are doing, he should resign. we do drone strikes everyday into pakistan, a nation who has not attacked us, we kill civilians there constantly; we have not declared war against pakistan, we do not have a UN mandate, nothing.
i don't care if you are left, right, or the man in the moon, this is murder by our government, and until it stops the exalted one has earned his new name, Bloody Barack Obama.
time for me, and this country, to go to work.
So....
Since I believe most thinking Americans understand Bush, Cheney and Co. are war criminals, why has Obama insisted from Inauguration Day when he was busy back-slapping George W. at The White House that we all need to "look forward and not to the past"?
Are we a country of laws or men?
What is Holder doing at The Justice Department regarding war crimes, the illegal "Shock and Awe" of Iraq and the resultant ILLEGAL occupation? One million human beings are DEAD as a result.
Why MORE "State Secret Privileges"?
Obama and the Democratic Party were an abysmal failure BEFORE Obama was elected. When Pelosi continued to slink around with George W. all smiles and sweetness while stating, "Impeachment is OFF the table!" I knew then and there that the Democratic Party was not MY party. It could not be.
But I, like almost everyone who comes to these pages, worked for and voted for Obama believing that there was an outside chance that things would be different.
Now I'm sporting a bumpersticker on the back window of my car that has a picture of Obama on one side and Bush on the other with the words: NOTHING CHANGED.
It's time to form a NEW PARTY or we can fuggedaboddit.
Both major parties need to be challenged IN THEIR FACE!!!!!
NO RETREAT! NO SURRENDER!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Ever notice that there never was or will be a political party called: "The Ethical Party"?
as a "humanitarian" representative. He is making sure old war criminal Georgie Boy will never see a court room, because how can you put such a humanitarian on trial for war crimes when he has been so busy helping the poor Haitian people.
Fool me once, can't get fooled again O-Bomb-A.
I read your post as if I wrote it (but of course you said it better). We are in total agreement. The only thing I can say is I won't be voting for Obama again. It doesn't mean I won't vote for a democrat if a good one decides to run.
I've been all for third and fourth partys for years, but none have come about. I won't criticize Nader for Bush's "win" because even with Nader as a third party candidate, Bush only won through a major voter fraud - and a dishonest Supreme Court.
I'll be watching for a good third party choice, and if one arises I may even donate time (and money if I have any)
Its as bad as when Rumsfeld supposedly was fired, but kept his office at the DoD. And how he got US gov support in escaping Paris (for Germany and flight back to US on mil aircraft) when the French police had that warrant out for him and tried to arrest him.
"F*** Yeah USA" quoted from the movie "Team America" that war satire movie base on the war in the middle east played by puppets. Anyone remember the shooting scene and the civilian running for cover? It boggles the mind how closely the puppet movie was to this shooting!
..why we went into Iraq and how many days ago the "Mission.." was "..Accomplished"?
Can anyone, anyone including the President look at this video and say we're being honorable?
I, as a citizen of a once-great nation who are now a nation of war criminals, DEMAND we immediately exit Iraq and cease the occupation of that country!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
remember, Karl Rove said that "Mission Accomplished" banner was for the sailors on the USS Abraham Lincoln....it had nothing to do with Bush's declaration of mission accomplished in Iraq.
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
At exactly what point in our history was our nation "great"?
Get over the myth. America isn't "great", it just is.
Prima Facie evidence of a war crime.
"Rules of Engagement"? Ha.
and woke up at 3:45am while dreaming about it.
If a video can have this effect on me, I wonder about the effects it has on everyone personally involved.
I've seen other similar videos where it is readily apparent the Iraqis have RPGs and are setting up to shoot them. In this video, it wasn't really apparent what weapons, if any, these people had.
Why wouldn't we send some ground troops over to check out the situation first? It's not like they couldn't have been taken out then had they fired weapons.
and she wondered if any of the guys in the chopper committed suicide yet. I wondered how many will with this out in the open, and they're not getting 'attaboys' all 'round anymore.
me-oww!
In this video, it wasn't really apparent what weapons, if any, these people had
In this video the people were unarmed, they didn't have AK47s like the terrorist claimed and there was no RPG in evidence anywhere in the video like the terrorist claimed.
What the terrorists saw was a couple of people with video cameras, journalists, all of whom had brown skin. Reason enough for the Chjristanic terrorists to slaughter not only them but the medics who came to help the few still alive.
In the video the medica sre helping the dead and the living and the terrorist claims over the radio that they're collecting weapons as well however the video doesn't show any weapons at all, not any that the victims had.
Fucking war crimes, committed by Christanic terrorists who do what they do because that's what their death cult instills in them.
Christianic terrorist is far, far worse than even their Islamic or Israeli terrorist counterparts.
Christianity is abjectly evil. The worse.
... born of the same roots, maybe our Atheist regulars are right.
Judaism gave birth to Islam, then Christianity. Nearly 2,000 years of history, and all we can do is find new, exciting ways to kill each other.
Atheists have been refusing service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when it comes time to commit crimes against humanity, atheists have been refusing orders -- and getting in trouble for doing so.
I don’t know. The Taliban and Sharia law seem to be paralleling the same timeline as Christianity. Their Islamic faith is about 700 years younger than the Jesus thing. Around 700 years ago the Christians had their own Jihads and Inquisitions. I don’t think the Christians were/are any better or worse.
... inherent to the attempt to define morality in religious terms.
While a credo such as 'and it harm none, do as ye will' may be more subjective insofar as the individual has leeway to determine what 'harm' is, the other extreme is objectifying morality in an infallible, irrefutable deity or prophet.
And that's where we are with religions like Christianity.
I certainly don't want to get into a dustup about 'moral relatavism,' but rigid strictures don't allow for growth or change (and perhaps that's really what attracts folks to evangelical Christianity), whereas the subjective standard's weakness is a failure to be open and honest with oneself and/or one's community.
it out among themselves.
But leave me out of it.
happened in 2007, war crimes continue today, under Obama. We are predator drone bombing in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia. He has sent 50,000 more troops to Afghanistan. He has even sent 1000 more explosive and demolition experts to Iraq. And he seems to be privatizing that war big time with military contracts only skyrocketing.
Obama's 2010 defense budget is 1% higher than Bush's 2008 budget. Yes. More money for the military industrial complex from the Nobel Prize winner. War is murder. The murdering has only expanded. There are Crooks and Liars everywhere, lets keep this site and the people on it from being included.
Does anyone want to reevaluate their Democratic/Republican allegiances?
... indulged in toe-the-line rote party speech, you might have a point. You won't find anyone proposing halos for Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, or necessarily anyone on the Democratic side of the fence.
any talk here about Obama's foreign policy. It is always this retroactive blame game on the Bush administration. Always.
Obama's defense budget is greater than Bush's. Can anyone grip the slipstream of reality?
... and you're an expert on what the site has and has not said about Obama's foreign policy?
Nice to meet you, Karnak.
know i have been a member for many years.
[I assume then this is 'more than one account.' Read the TOS-Sitemonitor]
The war criminal nouveau here
and here
and the top of this page here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
. . . of Obama's foreign policy in the past 29 minutes.
But Emanuel, Clinton and the other Neocon slime take plenty of hits here - as does Obama.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...it is the Soros wing as well. Look into the covert soros funded wars of eastern europe. Brezinski is another criminal at Obama's disposal. And let's not forget Jim Jones National Security advisor confessed that he takes his orders from Kissinger still. Kissinger predates the neo-con madmen. They are everywhere. Neocon, neoliberal. It is classic Art of War that you think there is a difference.
I see little or no difference between Kissenger or the current crop of Neocons - and neither do many of us here.
Of course, having been a member here for years (yet somehow avoiding registration for the past year and a half), you knew that.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
going to connect Soros to waars of easstern Europe shouldn't you provide a link?
G. Soros handed money to the notorious Scientology crime syndicate in Germany, handing it over after proclaiming that the Scientology crime syndicate was being "persecuted."
So it wouldn't surprise me if Soros funds international terrorism.
Now thats funny.
Cue the Kabuki....
After Pelosi and her "impeachment is off the table" shit, and then Obama morphing into just another corporatist war monger and becoming Bush's third term, I am FINISHED voting for ANY DEMOCRATS.
I wish Marcy Winograd was running as an Independent against Jane "AIPAC" Harman, because as "progressive" as she appears, I do not trust her. I think, if elected, she will just join the "Progressive" (INO) Caucus and then proceed to "go along to get along" with Pelosi and all the other Democrats who have lied and deceived us.
Which is why we need to launch A NEW PROGRESSIVE PARTY AND DUMP THE DEMOCRATS.
The Republican Party and the Democratic Party need to go the way of the dodo bird and they can take all their corporatist masters with them.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
time, to finally once and for all ditch the Dems and Rethugs, for good. Bill Clinton lost me when he cruise missled Baghdad and killed that female artist (what, reject Bill for ONLY one death--yes) to make good with Pappa Bush. Pelosi lost me totally with impeachment is off the table and the wire tapping. All the rest of the Dems lost me when they lost their spines. Only a few still have my respect, a handful, but they end up getting marginalized by the media AND their fellow Dems.
When the Dems stood with the Rethugs to condemn MoveOn.org, I sent a copy of my $50 donation check to MoveOn (and my check to the ACLU) to my Senator (Leahy) and told him in the letter that it came right out of my donation fund for him. Have to slap these useless bastard around to get them in line (a little).
Oh man. I'm an asshole, hot headed mouth, I know it and I admit it. But when I read that President Obama was handed a fucking Nobel Peace Prize, it gets me frothing at ever higher levels of froth!
He won the Nobel Peace Prize for what again?
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
Don't you understand the symbolism!
War = Peace
Please replace all occurances of the later symbol with a reference to the former in your code. Recompile and run.
Why is that so hard for people to choke down... I mean... comprehend.
...can clearly be seen between 3:39 and 3:45, carried by two men who enter the screen from the top.
I don't blame the soldiers. I blame the still-unaccountable architects of this war for putting our soldiers in harm's way and the Iraqi people in the gunsights of the US military.
Pat Tillman was right. This war is so effing illegal.
See. Shadowgm
... trying to extrapolate my politics from a single remark.
I've been criticizing the war and the whole "Fear! 9/11!" mentality since it began, and for five years on my blog. Obama is not spared - in fact, today's entry questions whether or not his 'new' nuclear proliferation policy will stand, or if it will get dialed back, dumbed down, reversed like everything else.
I couldn't see one.
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
Several times, over and over – and, yes, it is possible the men you pointed out at 3:39 to 3:45 may be carrying weapons. I can’t tell from the graininess of the video if they’re AK47s or RPGs. They don’t look big enough to be RPGs, but I grant you, two of the men in this video could have been armed. So that begs the question, if this is a gang of armed insurgents, why do only two guys seem to have rifles? Because I can see that the vast majority of the men there are carrying absolutely nothing in their hands. Nothing.
What I can tell is that at 3:20, when the gunship cross-hairs are trained on Namir, who is carrying a camera, the gun crew clearly says: “That’s a weapon. Yeah.” It was not a weapon. Even with the graininess of the video, it’s obviously a camera. Just as the guy at 4:12 behind the corner of the building is obviously holding a camera while the gun crew is getting excited about an ‘RPG’. I can’t tell if it’s a Nikon or a Minolta, but even I can tell that’s a camera.
Going over this footage, frame by frame, I notice a couple other things as well. Like… at 2:30, when the film starts, before the gun crew magnify their sights on the group of men on the street, I notice what else is in that street. A mosque. So, were these a group of men congregating for nefarious reasons? Or people coming or going to prayers, as would be normal for a bunch of people on the street? I notice something else. At 3:16, there’s a couple guys on a motor scooter, who leave, being waved goodbye by one of the men at 3:18. They knew each other. Presumably the two on the scooter weren’t there by the time the Apache opened fire. Anyone try to find these people? Interview/interrogate them?
At 2:57, in the lower right hand corner of the screen is a parked bus. There are two more next to the mosque as well. Busses. Why were they there? Were any of these people related to the busses? Would it have made sense if they were to have a couple armed men guarding the passengers? Don’t journalists in Baghdad have bodyguards? Didn’t McCain walk around Baghdad with a hell of a load of armed men around him? I’d like to know, what were the busses doing there, and where were the passengers?
And at 4:23, the gun crew makes the statement: ‘Yeah, we had a guy shooting.’ Which even to the untrained eye is a complete fabrication. There’s no gunfire going on anywhere, the cameras and guns aren’t aimed at the Apache or anything else. There’s no battle going on. They lied. Pure and simple. They lied.
We know one of the gun ship crew’s first name, Kyle, at 5:19, presumably the gunner, judging by the conversation. So who is Kyle? At 5:51, having shot everyone, they resume firing. There’s no one on the ground left standing, but they’re shooting anyway.
At 8:36, one of the crew ‘talks’ to the wounded journalist on the ground, ‘C’mon buddy, all you gotta do is pick up a weapon.’ There is no visible weapon. There’s not even anything that could even be mistaken for one, like a camera. The man is completely incapacitated, he can’t even stand up. The rules of engagement are getting very murky by this point. I'd like to know the military's justification for granting permission to carry on what is by now a clearly subdued situation. With wounded. Geneva Conventions, anyone? Do our military men and women not know what these are? Even in war, some actions are inexcusable.
This is a residential area, with ordinary people living there, judging by the clothes on a clothesline on the roof above the dying man on the ground. It’s not a battleground, an abandoned wasteland. It’s just a neighbourhood, where people come and go on scooters. With people near a mosque, walking around casually, not fighting. Not even afraid of fighting that apparently was going on somewhere nearby. So just how close was the fighting to here that made this particular neighbourhood fair game to an Apache gunship?
At 8:54, one of the gun crew says they’re looking for weapons. At 8:56, some one says,’ if we see a weapon we’re gonna engage.’ They don’t see any. At 9:22, the van arrives. A man appears from behind, running up to the van. He didn’t get out of the van, so, where did he come from? Did he come out of one of the houses? Was he simply a neighbour trying to help? None of the men rescuing the wounded are carrying anything at all, cameras or weapons. The man who does get out of the van and opens the side door is wearing all white. The only one in the street to be wearing all white. Like a hospital orderly or a medic. Where did the van come from? Who was the man in white?
These are the question I’d like answers to. These are the questions I’d want my military investigators asking. These are the questions that should have been asked three years ago – rather than a cover-up, a black out of information, and the harassment of anyone who would dare leak this ever happened to the American people. So I want to know why.
Don’t you?
The man in white was an ordinary civilian driving his kids to a tutor when he happened across the wounded. Not an armed insurgent, didn’t even know any of these people. Just a dad, trying to help. My ability to give the benefit of the doubt to Kyle and his mates in that gunship is getting thinner and thinner. Lynndie England needs some company.
After all, there are still dangerous armed gangs of all sorts, so maybe the journalists who were going to do an article about body builders and weight lifters had an escort for that reason.
The friggin' NRA needs to get on this right away.
And going back over it.
It sure looks to me like those two guys have weapons - AK and a RPG.
Look, before I get flamed let me say I'm completely opposed to this war, have been since before it started. I do believe it was cooked up to make a lot of people rich.
Part of the reason we know it's a camera is that the video we watched told us who they were and continuously pointed them out to us. I knew where the journalists because the arrows kept telling me.
You write that they "may be carrying weapons" but you "can’t tell from the graininess of the video" - yet it's clear to you that's it's a camera he holding.
The guys in the Apache may have been looking for a fight... but remember where and when they were. They weren't flying over Cleveland.
As I see it - they did see weapons. They did call into chain of command. They did receive authorization and they did kill them.
It's horrible. It's all horrible.
And, at the risk of being flamed, mistakes DO happen in war. It sucks.
I have no idea why they fired on the van. Perhaps insurgents had a habit of taking bodies of their dead so their families couldn't be ID'ed by the US Military. I have no idea but that is a fair question.
Obviously the cover-up is beyond reproach. But can I honestly Monday morning QB those two pilots?
I read over and over how disgusted we are by their reactions. Good. We should be horrified. But we're not doing it. Day in and day out. How would I react if I were in a place where I had to kill anyone and people were trying to kill me? I'd build the biggest damn defensive shell I could around my ego. Their comments about "don't bring kids to a battle".... I'm no shrink but that's pure defense mechanisms kicking in. How else do you cope with killing kids?
I'm all for getting to the truth here. But lets also remember that our country put these guys into an incredibly shitty position. And with an insurgency where any civilian can have a gun and be trying to kill you? And you see guys with guns...
I'm not going to second guess these pilots.
I'm pointing right up the chain of command - all the way to the guys who put us there in the first place.
I can guarantee you that neither of those pilots wishes they were there killing those kids instead of being at home with their own families.
to most of this. The argument, however, that I see a camera only because I’ve been told it’s a camera would then negate my observation of what was on the video at 3:39 to 3:45. Am I seeing guns because I’ve been told they’re guns? I took a second, much harder look, and yes – I believe you were correct, they’re guns. And the camera lens don’t look like AK47s. I see cameras because they were cameras.
What I also see is a group of men, casually strolling around, chatting, waving goodbye to friends as they drive off on scooters. What I also see is video shot from an Apache helicopter, a mile or more away, and in no conceivable way in any danger, from anyone. There was no urgency. There was no gunfire, no battle, nothing. Our troops were still a long ways off from these people, no one was in imminent danger. There was plenty of time to have watched and waited before they opened fire. They didn’t.
Our troops were still far enough away that the gun ship just sat there and watched an badly injured man crawl on the ground, while begging permission to continue shooting. Again, no one was in imminent danger.
I don’t think I’m being a Monday morning quarterback. I have the utmost possible sympathy for the men and women who have been sent to fight a truly hideous war, kept there far longer than anyone should have the right to ask of them, and are doing the best they can with what they’ve been handed, including inadequate armour protection and a shambolic military command structure all the way to the top (and in 2007 this would have been Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld). But this does not excuse despicable behaviour. Had they only seen weapons, had they called into the chain of command for authorization, and killed on command that would be one thing. No one disputes that accidents happen in the line of duty, that would have been understandable.
That they reported gunfire when there was none, weapons in a van that did not exist, that they cheered each other on, that they shot and killed wounded who were already incapacitated, that they so obviously enjoyed what they were doing – that’s not acceptable military behaviour, and it’s not Monday morning quarterbacking to demand a hearing into why these men behaved as they did. And to demand appropriate punishment meted out to everyone involved, all the way up that chain of command, as those pilots weren’t rogues acting on their own.
We cannot excuse their behaviour because they’re soldiers and we’re not, that they’re under enormous stress we can only imagine. Were we to acquiesce to that justification, William Calley would never have been put on trial and Lynndie England would have had a medal pinned to her chest.
I don’t want to second guess anyone. I want to know what happened, how it happened, why it happened. I want those who have committed something that may range from a gross error of judgment to a patent war crime to be held responsible. I want to know that this is not standard operating procedure, that there aren’t dozens and dozens of similar acts being covered up by our military and our government. I want the truth. Because if we don’t demand that, we are not giving our men and women in uniform with the respect they need and deserve from us, and we are not serving our country’s best interests.
Nonny Mouse -
I wanted to send this message via your blog or something, not to drag this conversation on and on.
Wired has an interview with one on the soldiers who was on scene... (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/2007-...)
I wanted to highlight a couple of things from the interview. This was urban combat and there was a patrol engaged in another fight 3 - 4 blocks away. There were weapons on the scene etc.
So the whole thing blows. I just want to point out from the wired article these lines...
"There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. That stays with you. And cracking jokes is a way of pushing that stuff down. That’s why so many soldiers come back home and they’re no longer in the situations where they have other things to think about or other people to joke about what happened … and they explode."
This is what I meant about how the soldiers were reacting. It's coping. It's not pretty. It's survival.
You write: "We cannot excuse their behaviour because they’re soldiers and we’re not, that they’re under enormous stress we can only imagine. Were we to acquiesce to that justification, William Calley would never have been put on trial and Lynndie England would have had a medal pinned to her chest. "
I want to be very clear, callous behavior, ghastly indifference, and seeming to "enjoy what they were doing" are all horrific coping mechanisms but they aren't crimes. What William Calley and Lynndie England were clear crimes. And in England's case I regret that we only prosecuted the individuals and not up the chain of command that allowed or instructed the behavior (but that's a different case).
And then there is the shooting of the van. It appears that picking up the wounded isn't allowed (which seems incredibly callous of the US) but that is the situation the soldiers are in.
I would applaud an investigation but what I would rather see is an investigation of how we got to the war in the first place and the lies that put us there. I'd rather hang the war criminal label on those who created the war, rather than those who have to execute it imperfectly.
They prob were hired security guards for the photographers. They are not combat alert or professional one bit.
Even if you concede that in the kind of war this is, sometimes civilians are going to be in the way and get killed, these guys were obviously having a ghoulishly good old time killing people. Even without the labels added that point out the journalists, I can see that they were not weapons they were carrying. Yes, at least one other guy was carrying a weapon, but our hardware is good enough to take out the guys carrying weapons without the indiscriminate killing these guys were having such fun doing. It's sickening.
"99 Knights of the air
Ride super-high-tech jet fighters
Everyone's a superhero.
Everyone's a Captain Kirk.
With orders to identify.
To clarify and classify.
Scramble in the summer sky.
As 99 red balloons go by."
directed the military to send a helicopter there to take out the journalists as collateral damage. It's just the troops were told they were enemy combatants.
and use the correct term-- occupations.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
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