Pentagon official admits 9/11 suspect was tortured
Bob Woodward scoops another one, this time getting a top Pentagon official to admit, on record, that the United States did indeed torture Mohammed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who allegedly "hoped" to become part of the 9/11 attack.
THE official in charge of the military commission process at Guantanamo Bay has become the first senior Bush Administration figure to publicly admit that a detainee was tortured.
Judge Susan Crawford, who was in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees — beginning with Australian David Hicks — to trial, has concluded that the US military tortured a Saudi Arabian who allegedly planned to take part in the September 11, 2001, attacks.
She said Mohammed al-Qahtani was interrogated with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, public nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition".
"We tortured Qahtani," Judge Crawford said in her first interview since her appointment by Defence Secretary Robert Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case (for prosecution)."
Take special note of that last part. This is exactly why torture is counterproductive. Not only is it morally reprehensible and of dubious efficacy, it ends up prohibiting us from prosecuting these criminals the real American way.
The GWOT really is a "war of ideas." When we torture and imprison indefinitely those those seek to attack us, we drag ourselves down to their level, all the while showing the world that we don't really stand for what we say we do. This is George Bush's true legacy. He and his cronies may be running around trying to convince you otherwise. But I know you're all smart enough to know better.
boosh uses him as a sounding board to practice speeches?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I would like to know if they found out any information from the guy.
I know if I was to be tortured I would tell everything to not even start torturing me. I would lie to just satify them as well so I didnt have to go throu the ordeal.
Now they tortured him. Did they find out any useful info?
America torturing makes us no better then the Nazi's. We are America. We are above all that. Thats what makes us America. If we torture then we are no longer that shining beacon.
Had the United States had enough evidence to put this guy on trial; they would of had a huge media show trial for the propaghanda value. I think it is highly probable that this guy was a French Intelligence Asset. It would explain why the French knew so much about the operation. They did after all WARN the CIA that something was going to happen.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Report_France_w...
If this is the case then the most probable reason for torturing this guy would be to make him a mentally retarted vegetable so that he could NEVER spill the beans about what he knew.
By extracting false confessions, by turning reliable witnesses into vegetables, by tainting the testimony of all of them by using torture, the wider mission was accomplished - to make it impossible to find the real story behind the attacks of 9-11.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Woodward, and old ONI hand, is always used to drop these 'limited hang outs'. If you think, as bad as this shit is, this is all that happened to these 'detainees' your nuts.
Good information. Operation Mockingbird.
Small pedantic point of language:- You do begin by saying 'allegedly' but later call the detainees 'these criminals'. As they have not been tried and proven as such in a court of law they should be referred to as detainees, lest the Bush regime's corruption of language in the service of their illegal programs become widely used and accepted.
It seeps in. It's easy to fall victim to it. It is great to be corrected. people often say to refer to the war in Iraq as an occupation instead of a war, which is more accurate.
Bush has repeatedly referred to them as "known killers" ..
"Known" by whom to be "killers" ???
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
to be accurate, there was an invasion -- a war crime, by the way -- of a sovereign state with an elected government that was no threat to the invading country. What followed, of course, was the occupation whose sole rationale was the construction of a number of large, permanent military bases (see Philippines, Germany for other examples) to ensure that the oil rich 'Stans will not fall under the influence of the Russians and the Chinese. Classic empire process.
"Secular humanism -- a fearless, realistic world view replete with doubt and scepticism that attempts to attain an unachievable state of equilibrium between and among the human qualities of reason, intuition, imagination, memory, ethics and common sense.
Pentagon misspelled in title.
Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught
will we realize we cannot eat money.
Judge Crawford didn’t refer the case because al-Qahtani had been tortured. So she consigns him to the purgatory that is Gitmo indefinitely where they, you know, torture people. This is the legacy that the history books will be talking about.
Is this the judge?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjRaU8hRVJs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The issue of Guantanamo Bay will probably be the most dangerous political front that Obama will have to deal with in the first year or two. He'll get resistance on economic stimulus and Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran/Pakistan policy, but there's no weapon of political destruction (WPD) the Republicans are counting on more than to say that Obama is soft on terror.
From a political standpoint he's really stuck:
Can't release them ("He's releasing the terrorists to fight another day!!")
Can't prosecute them in tribunals (several times struck down by federal courts as offering insufficient protections for defendant's rights)
Can't prosecute them in US federal couts (evidence from torture inadmissible, "He's extending constitutional protections to Terrorists!!")
Can't deport them (would be tortured or executed or released)
Can't hold them in Gitmo (continues the human rights abuses currently going on)
Can't hold them in U.S. prisons (no convictions)
If he pulls this off I'll be more impressed than if he gets a permanent settlement to the Israel/Palestine issue this year.
Political Minefield
Maybe they can reword this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skU-jBFzXl0
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
is to let the courts deal with it.
Once the US federal courts dismiss evidence tainted by torture, President Obama will be able to (a) blame the judiciary if he has to and (2) characterize the courts' decisions as the inevitable result of the previous administration breaking the law.
The more the judiciary lines up against the (soon to be) past administration's policies, the better.
Yeah, that would work for those (of us?) who are following the issues and are ready to hang blame for the conundrum where it belongs, on Bush Admin.
But all of Obama's current rhetoric is about looking forward, I don't see where he's leaving himself any room to carry that argument.
Today I read in the Palm Beach Post that some that have been released, like about 11% or so, have returned to the battlefield. The article said they knew this because of DNA matches. How many holes can you count in that story? Even if they really did go back to the battlefield, could you blame them after what was done to them at Gitmo?
Seems to me the media is flooding the air waves and print media with all this talk of torture in order to water the subject down. If it's out there everywhere maybe the public will just sort of get used to it and not question anything.
Remember one of the reasons we were told that it was good to get rid of Saddam was because he tortured people. What kind of fu*king example are we setting for these countries that we claim we want to become democracies?
And again I gotta say, it breaks my heart that torture is being debated in my country.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
And that ain't going to happen. So you might as well get used to being known as a country that tortures its prisoners and has a different set of laws for its aristocracy.
The Bush administration has dragged us down FAR BELOW their level, for most who were tortured were innocent of ANY crime, much less an intention to harm the US.
I'm glad Judge Crawford is refusing to refer cases for trial if individuals have been tortured. Good for her!
Even Bush and Cheney did not drag the US far below Al Qaida.
If the only thing they have on these people came from the use of torture, then they have nothing. Seems to me the people should be set free.
Someone said on Morning Joe this morning that those in Gitmo were probably having a more comfortable life than they would have back where they came from. What do you say to someone who thinks that way?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Let the war crimes tribunals begin.
Anyone wishing to join the ranks of the war criminals proceeds at their own peril.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
There will be no war crimes tribunals. The primary prerequisite (losing a war and being marched to the Hague by your oppenents' troops) will never be met.
You are more likely to seek members of the Bush administration tried in US courts than anywhere else.
Possibly the best way for this to happen is for ordinary citizens (or the victims themselves) to make claims in Federal Courts.
I will call for them until my last day.
Ordinary citizens would have what standing in a Federal Court?
Certainly the victims will have, when and if they are able.
Bush is a murderer.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Holy SHIT, condescend much?
I reacted negatively to that last sentece too - but I thought Silent Patriot was being way too idealistic, rather than condescending.
So when begins the trial of the torture instigators?
" Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!"
-Sir Walter Scott-
That quote should be placed on bush's tombstone when he passes away.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
and the revelations are pouring out. As the creek becomes a river we should all pressure Congress to investigate. I begin hope they won't get away with every evil thing they did.
when he was still a child.
Be proud, America.
However, in an unjust world, those who have attained that level of power NEVER answer for their crimes. Laws have been written and our justice system structured to protect the wealthy and powerful. Look at the way the Madoff incident is being handled. He was under house arrest for god's sake! Someone who effectively stole $50 billion dollars was walking free and mailing his hard assets to family members and friends. If you , me, or 98% of the American public were to steal a television from a retail store, we would be in County for an extended period of time before the trial. So to expect Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other war criminals to answer for ANY crime is a wild fantasy at best.
Bush apologist Bob Woodward did that? Bully for him. He remains banished for life.
Take him off the Bush family christmas card list.
Are the Ben Ladens on it?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Remember the Ben Ladens and the Saudi got a free pass out of the country when Americans were grounded. One can't bust there busniess partners.
My parents spanked.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
These crimes cannot go unpunished. This is one of the darkest periods of our history. We must investigate, make public, and rectify.
they were picked up on the battel field. when most of them were sold. remember the millions of dollars sent to pay for the bad guys. Lost, 9 billion dollars. Think people getting kicked out of there homes could use some of that money. ya think bush gives a shit. Don't give any time on thursday night. send them a message, turn your TV off.
We need the republican party to pack their bags and get out of DC. What a discrace.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
the Republicans? The Democratic leaders knew about the torture, were filled in by the Bush administration, salaamed their butts up in the air, and thereafter kept quiet about it. They're JUST as guilty.
You're right about the fallen democratic leadership for sure. I just find the republican party to be the root problem for everything that's wrong.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
this is insane
this is not the america that i was born in
i dont care what pelosi or obama says
i want full prosecution of everyone in the bush administration
i want to see them all prosecuted, convicted and sent to leavenworth
and i want the grunts from abu gharaib freed
of Bush appointees and enablers to be credible, so it can be exchanged for political capital by the new administration.
Realistically speaking, (almost) no one who deserved jail time is ever going to be prosecuted, never mind convicted.
However, some good can come of it if we use the prospect of prosecutions to push the GOP around.
So now we just go back to the old way of doing things, deny we torture while torturing people in black sites or rendition them to Syria for said services.
this whole debate has been about absolute power, not practicality.
None of the arguments for railroading Constitutional rights by Bush/Cheney hold merit. The 12 o'clock hour argument holds that we must change the law to allow torture so that it can be used in the case of an impending attack or nuclear threat. Now, practically speakingdo you think for one moment that if that truly were the case--that a bomb was about to level a city-- that whomever it was would beat the hell out of the terrorist to get the info regardless of the law? And practically speaking, we know the CIA and military has tortured people or dumped prisoners off to be tortured in other countries as long as the institution has existed.
Further, as for wiretapping--it was all obtainable through after the fact warrants. Again, its about obliterating the checks on power. And really, rubbing our noses in it. And, unfortunately, this generation has had it too good, and has let this happen. Just like the financial bailout.
America torturing makes us no better then the Nazi's. We are America. We are above all that. Thats what makes us America. If we torture then we are no longer that shining beacon.
I like this quote; I think it sums up my feelings quite nicely
If a drone kills a child in Kandahar, do the crying parents make a sound?
While I'm all for healing the wounds of the last 8 years, I truly hope these crimes don't go unpunished. Not prosecuting at the highest levels is akin to consent.
The economic collapse is proving that war is obsolete, imprisonment too expensive, torture too costly, genocide impractical, and oppression counterproductive. The prosecution of war crimes will in itself generate an economic boom. Justice should be our biggest resource and export to the rest of the world.
that they are acting like this guys was only one of a few tortured. He is one of god knows how many.
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