Rumors Of Pakistan's Demise Greatly Exaggerated
A day after many pundits followed Bill Roggio freaking out about Pakistan's status as a "failed state" because the Taliban were - gasp - only 60 miles from Islamabad, comes this from Reuters.
"Our leader has ordered that Taliban should immediately be called back from Buner," Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan told Reuters. He said there were only around 100 fighters in Buner.
Government and Taliban representatives went to Buner, along with Maulana Sufi Mohammad, a radical Muslim cleric who brokered the Swat deal, to tell the fighters to vacate the district.
Fazlullah's aide Mehmood Khan said the militants were returning to Swat, and witnesses saw them leaving Buner in the early evening.
It was unclear whether the Taliban's withdrawal was in response to a carrot or a stick, and worries abound over whether Pakistan lacks the capacity and intent to fight militancy.
Army chief General Ashfaq Kayani issued a statement aimed at dispelling those doubts and calming a mounting sense of crisis.
The army "will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan," the statement quoted Kayani as saying.
Kayani's comments, issued after meeting with his commanders, reinforced expectations of an imminent offensive in Swat, analysts said.
100 Taliban. Five hours travel away from Islamabad on Pakistani roads on a good day, i.e. one where you have a working truck that isn't being bombed and shelled by Pakistan's huge military. Some threat. Want to bet me there's 100 militiamen ready for the rightwing revolution somewhere within 5 hours of D.C.? By some lights, that puts America on the verge of being a hollow state.
Pepe Escobar got it exactly right in a recent piece for Asia Times:
Islamabad controls most of Pakistan - Sindh and Punjab provinces - with an iron fist. Pakistani police and army control most of NWFP. In "separatist" Balochistan there's only 5% of the total population. For Washington to believe that a small, rural, Pashtun tribal agglomeration of bands of a maximum of 30 fighters, with no air force, no heavy artillery and no tanks, could take over a Pakistan with a 650,000-strong well-trained army is an absolutely ridiculous notion. And for Washington to believe - as Holbrooke implied - that a few Pashtun tribals and a few expat jihadis can take on Western civilization as a whole is also an absolutely ridiculous notion.
The Pakistani military also directly controls over 50% of Pakistan's economy and the civilian government is just a facade to keep US military aid coming. The military has let the Taliban have those bits of Pakistan it isn't interested in running itself, that's all. If they were a serious threat to military supremacy they'd be crushed. A potential deal where the Taliban get Sharia in return for keeping the populace off the military's back...that's maybe a different story...
But calling it a "failed state" if the military are back in charge, in a return to the status quo ante, deal or not? That's just fearmongering for escalation even if the prospect of an overtly military-run Pakistan isn't a palatable one. It's linguistic slight-of-hand framing the issue the way interventionists want it framed. "Failed States", it is implicitly assumed, don't have the sovereign right or ability to say no to American COIN ops. More, describing a nation as a "Failed State" brings in a whole load of implicit assumptions about the moral right to meddle, to "protect non- failed states".
And the one thing we can be sure about Bill Roggio is that he's a reliable stenographer for the Pentagon's spinners.
Still, none of this helps Obama's atrocious strategy for the region one bit, especially given that the Pakistani military has no intention of decimating a Taliban movement that still provides it useful proxies against it's real enemy, India. But even by the logic of pro-escalation types like Roggio and David Kilcullen, surging in Afghanistan when they call Pakistan's "imminent" collapse the real threat doesn't make sense. If an army larger than the entire US military can't stop the extremists on what they now say is the central front, what's a piddling amount of troops in the country next door supposed to do? If that massive army simply refuses to stop the extremists, again what's to be done by waving a far smaller "big stick" next door? Worse,a large military presence in the region, with that military using force and causing civilian casualties while the US tries to bend the Pakistani government to our will against its regional interests, isn't going to help stabilize Pakistan. Quite the reverse.
It just doesn't add up. And it doesn't add up because it has added fearmongering, designed to bolster waning domestic support for Bush's mismanaged occupation now that Obama has gone with the neoliberal hawks and decided to double down. It's far more likely that the Taliban aren't a realistic existential threat to Afghanistan, Pakistan or even America. Even in Afghanistan, only 8% of the populace think they've any chance of successfully re-seizing power and 84% say there's no Taliban problem in their area. The Taliban are simply a thorny problem that can be contained by counter-terrorism and law enforcement, rather than massively lengthy and expensive COIN surges.
Crossposted from Newshoggers, by request.



Very nice to see you.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
No, the Taliban aren't the threat that they've been made out to be, and given their record so far, we still shouldn't underestimate them.
I completely despise the Taliban. They are evil in my eyes and I don't use that word lightly. They murder women and force young girls into marriage.
Fuck the Taliban.
government propaganda has to be 100% true, right? I mean, no way they'd ever lie right? Not now.
So, you don't think the Taliban are made up of religious zealots who murder women and force young girls into marriage?
Where the hell have you been?
These are the guys that took over after booting Russia out of Afghanistan and used their religion as law. They beat and murder women. It is against their religion for girls to go to school. These people used a fucking soccer stadium as an execution ground. The tapes were smuggled out of Afghanistan and put on the air.
This is what happened when the US failed to live up to it's promises after helping kick Russia out. There was a power vaccuum and the extremists took over.
These are the facts. Now, the Taliban isn't the military power that some like to think it is, but it doesn't make it any less dangerous.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP12...
Read it. Then come back and defend these bastards.
CNN's Cooper just announced that "the enemy is on the move" then went to an EXXON commercial. Don't you think he should be a bit more specific at this point? At least while we have torturers running around free and bragging on TV.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Seems like a similar number to all those evil AlQaeda people. Be afraid people. Homeland Security colour Purple Nurple! Be vigilant and report all mysterious activies to the Homeland Gestapo.
Hi, nice to see your post. You're right, the US has been taken down, taken over, exploited, robbed, pillaged, sacked, left to rot in place just like USSR. I feel fortunate that I left before the coup de tat. Yes, there is a God----no the nutcases didn't manage to stamp out other authentic connections to a God that is ALL CONSCIOUSNESS. It's just THEIR karma to have to serve their time in HELL. God didn't send anyone there. Only the culture of DOMINATION would dream up such a punative diety. We all know that the nutcases are only tools used by their BETTERS.
And that's not a bad thing. But the growth of
the war in "Afghanistan"the "foreign contingency operation" in and around Afghanistan appears to be growing. And I don't understand why.I have two questions:
Why are we there?
and
When can we leave?
There's not a lot other than very dated connections to Al Qaeda as far as why we're there. What do we need to accomplish to get out? Is there a point to this other than endless war?
Who cares? Keep digging.
And we want to talk about torture now.... but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
My thoughts exactly.
Your Flames have been a little rough on my Hawks lately :(
Corruption favors the wealthy.
and all will be revealed tomorrow night!
*biting nails*
Why are we all over there? Seems every day there is a new excuse by all nations over there.
The country they don't mention now that the sock-puppet is in a padded room with it's supplies, is Columbia, the heart of the sock-puppet who siged the PONZI schemers onto their rich, drug, economy.
If officials of the Pakistani government say burning/burying women alive, for crimes like picking their own husband (or defending another woman's right to do so) is OK and legal, then the Taliban have only to finish the window dressing, like killing owners of liquor stores or girls who want to go to school.
Pakistan is clearly more of a threat than Iran, as it already has nukes and is run by a collection of liars and con artists whose only concern is retaining power, confronting India and using the Taliban to control Afghanistan.
We should gradually cease giving Pakistan any aid whatsoever, and consider dropping a satellite guided bomb on ISI HQ as a goodbye gift, before we exit, the sooner we get out the better from the whole region.
Tool, the US is not the world's policman, no matter how much posturing, and blustering the tools of the 1%ers do, tho they control the PROPANGANDA. The US is broke, this gov. should't be shelling out for any other country, including BLOODYISRAEL, until common peóns can find work. Stay the hell out of other countries politics. I'm talking to deaf ears, I know, but, FEARFUL, FEAR-MONGERING bronto, please stuff it.
I repeat; the sooner we get out the better from the whole region. Let India handle Pakistan, they have for over 50 years. Ibid for Afghanistan, let the warlords have it, it will always be poor, backward, and run by criminals, similar to Pakistan. If the people who live there want change they can strive for it.
As someone that follows Pakistan very closely, the idea that the Pakistani government is stable and in control is pure fantasy. The Taliban still left behind elements controlling these towns despite withdrawing their main force (NY Times). However, what is very obvious, is that the military is either not able to counter this offensive or not willing. That is a very serious issue, no matter how you slice it.
NEVER underestimate the resolve and effectiveness of religious fanatics. I think this will vex Obama (and us) more than Iraq. I guess Obama (or was it Clinton?) should never have invaded Iraq in the first place.
The Bush legacy is the gift that keeps on giving.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
get their hands on Pakistan's nukes, someone is going to get vaporized just before they do. Count on it.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
But make no mistake here. This is a huge problem.
India can't be very happy right now.
Not to mention the threat of those nukes in Pakistan falling into the hands of , lets just say, some dangerous people.
People can say what they want. They can call this fear mongering. Or say that this is just another way to try to get us involved deeper in the areas troubles.
This is what I think will happen.
Pakistan eventually turns on the taliban and starts making a push for the north western tribal areas. Pushing them all the way back into Afghanistan.
Where they will be forced to fight the US and the few remaining allies. This could end up building more of a presence from other countries. Like, Britain, Australia, Canada, France, and probably more.
The reason I say this is, if Pakistan fails. The whole planet is in trouble.
Not just the US. The entire planet.
If Pakistan falls into the hands of the taliban.
India will nuke the shit out of them. And Pakistan might be able to get a shot off as well.
But more likely, they smuggle out some nukes.
Then it's anyone's guess where it will end up.
More than likely the US. But Britain ,Spain, France, Italy could get it.
Hell, Canada could get it .
To blow this off as hyperbole is a mistake.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Muddy,
I agree 100%. It's not just a cleanup op for Obama. The Bush Doctrine has left the region with gas fumes everywhere. One spark...
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
Those folks already hate each other. The whole Kashmir thing.
I'm sure they've been watching this very closely.
The Pakistani govt' has to step up to the plate here.
For some reason, I just can't picture those nukes falling into the hands of the taliban. But it is possible.
I think the bigger threat is India blasting them. Then Pakistan returns fire.
Then the fall out.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
The Pakistani ISI/military know their only trump card is the nukes, so they are unlikely to let the nukes come under control of religious fanatics, unless, of course, the religious fanatics take over the ISI/military (??!!).
As the Taliban spread and replace corrupt rich Pakistani land barons with their own corrupt Taliban warlords, their finances and power will increase.
We can only hope the people of Pakistan will demand action to take back their country and this is more easily done if the US exits the region. Right now, the legitimacy of the Palistani government is in the gutter as they are seen as puppets of the US. Our participation gives the moral edge to the local anti-foreigner, anti-US fighters.
Plus Obama needs to cease these Predator attacks. The moderate Pakistanis can still maintain power, but not if we continue killing innocents in ANY province. The best friends the Taliban have are US if we keep playing this game. It's PR gold for them.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
EXACTLY MY BELIEF, SEE LINK:
The best current example is Pakistan, where the combination of Predator strikes and arm-twisting of the Pakistani government has undermined the legitimacy of the Pakistani state. That state now stands on the verge of disintegration, which would give al Qaeda and other Islamic 4GW forces the greatest victory they could imagine. The image on Osama’s cave wall should be a Predator, with the title, "Our best weapon."
Lind (above) posts on somewhat nutty Lew Rockwell.com, but he is a smart military/strategy thinker.
This is also why we need to prosecute the torturers. We cannot take the high road in any conflict or international crises as long as we say that the Bush torturers are going to be left alone. Our reputation has been destroyed by this. There is only one solution.
Aside from the flagrant violations of international treaty, we need to show the world that we hold ourselves to the high standard that we supposedly use when we justify intervening internationally. I would love for us to just bail on this area, but the Taliban are now expanding into a nuclear armed state. We need to exhaust all of our diplomatic resources to prevent these religious fanatics from convincing the Pakistani army and the ISI that they are a better alternative than a puppet government of the USA.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
But the idea of some of the religious fanatics infiltrating the military there is a real concern.
I want us out of there too. In a very weird way, this could be a ploy to keep us there.
Hey, you never know. That part of the world has never seen peace.ever.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Hey Fiver and all. Nice to be back for a one-off. Nicole asked me to crosspost this one from Newshoggers. But we're covering Af/Pak pretty heavily over there, we've even got it a feed of it's own.
Regards Steve aka Cernig
(I started blogging without the pseudonym a month or so back.)
The Taliban's Grave Error
Regards, Steve
This is good news. Bout damn time those folks figure that out.
But will it stick?
Very good topic Steve/Cernig.
Some people just aren't paying attention.
What do you know about India's perspective on this.
Do you know if they are they planning , or, do they have the appearance of planning anything militarily in the region.
This is an opportunity for India to make a move on Kashmir.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Your video of Ann Curry (I can't watch because of the start and stop) is another reason NBC needs new leadership. She can talk in front of a camera, and that isn't nothing, but she has to be the dumbest person on the entire news staff. I'll never forget her SCOLDING Benazer Bhutto for coming back to Pakistan and accusing her of being responsible for the deaths of people after the first assassination attempt. If you ever listen to one of her interviews you'll be shaking your head wondering how somebody that stupid can have such a great job. Who ever is responsible for her being out there spreading her ignorance ought to be ashamed. You'd think anybody who has had the opportunities she's had would actually learn something along the way.
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