AIG Sues Feds For Return of Tax Payments
Can you say "chutzpah"? I knew you could!
While the American International Group comes under fire from Congress over executive bonuses, it is quietly fighting the federal government for the return of $306 million in tax payments, some related to deals that were conducted through offshore tax havens.
A.I.G. sued the government last month in a bid to force it to return the payments, which stemmed in large part from its use of aggressive tax deals, some involving entities controlled by the company’s financial products unit in the Cayman Islands, Ireland, the Dutch Antilles and other offshore havens.
A.I.G. is effectively suing its majority owner, the government, which has an 80 percent stake and has poured nearly $200 billion into the insurer in a bid to avert its collapse and avoid troubling the global financial markets. The company is in effect asking for even more money, in the form of tax refunds. The suit also suggests that A.I.G. is spending taxpayer money to pursue its case, something it is legally entitled to do. Its initial claim was denied by the Internal Revenue Service last year.
for jury duty. I'll gladly be on the jury. they have to have a jury, right? they have to argue their case in front of a jury, right?
I believe it would be a civil suit decided in front of a judge.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
...unless the government ALLOWED you to sue it?
You can always sue the government unless the government, ie the Congress forbids it in a particular instance.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Cut these greedy bastards off at the pass before they cost us anymore of our money.
They are taking our money, then we take it back and now they are using OUR MONEY to sue US to take back OUR money, which we gave them in the first place.
Balls don't get much bigger than that.
me-oww!
How soon will our days of kleptocracy and economic idiocracy be over?
... shed this nonsense of 'too big to fail' and understand the consequences of our actions may very well entail economic chaos for a time.
We've been playing footsie with Schrodinger's Cat. Now that we've opened the box and discovered the damn cat is dead, we need to proceed accordingly, not put the lid back on, pretend it's alive and ignore the smell.
Funny I have a cat named Schroder. He's a Russian Blue. Ok sorry to interrupt.. carry on.
those poor thieving fascists.
http://gawker.com/5175745/aig-corporate-secur...
expecting to negotiate a better deal before court decision rendered??
See the (Frank) thread from yesterday. :-/
Amended: I'm sorry that was Frank saying we should sue them. It was another one that I pointed out that they could sue us. Though I'm not sure of all the stipulations, if we own 80%, we can now get spanked no matter which party sues which.? :-/ It's good for all the Blood sucking Lawyers though...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Their suing us with our money.
hmmmmm?
Oakeedoakee.
I like the comment above about jury duty. Although I'm not sure if a jury would be seated. But try finding an unbiased judge.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
... but it sure looks like the outrage on the part of the government is completely fabricated. Dodd's 'fessing up that he was asked by Treasury to let the bonuses go through; once again, the Congress, seeing the "outrage" in the citizens has decided to go jump out in front of the parade so they'll look like they're the ones leading the whole thing.
When the voters voted for change, what they were really voting for was honesty.
And they're not getting it. I suppose it's foolish to hope they ever will.
honesty would be change.
please tell me again how us liberals are unpatriotic and hate America.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Could you please extrapolate upon your comment, I don't get the point you've tried to make. Thank you for your anticipated help. :-)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
these companies railed against liberals as being pro-tax, pro socialism, anti business...and of course if you are anti business...you are anti American.
These companies offshored operations, including finance companies that off shored THOUSANDS of customer service jobs, and told us we would all live off of the interest of our investments.
These companies hollowed our core industrial economy, destroyed labor unions and labor jobs in the process...all in the name of American capitalism.
These companies egged on international aggression, all in the hope of securing business opportunities and no bid contracts. If they didn't get them directly...they provided ancillary services...and sucked off public money.
And anytime anyone criticised...or questioned...or called for accountability...these businesses and their enablers screamed that anyone that disagreed with them was unAmerican, unpatriotic...
Now they go to US...because it is OUR money that is going to them...with cup in hand...begging for money...cause if they don't get it...well...we're all gonna suffer.
They TAKE that money...and use it with no oversight, cause they paid off their representatives in Congress WELL with OUR money...and then spend it on bullshit..paying bonuses to themselves for wrecking their companies (geeez...how big a bonus do you get if your successful?!?!)...and now that the shit is hitting the fan...they turn around and sue US!?!?!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Kidding. Well said and couldn't agree more. I'm sharpening my pitchfork in anticipation of the coming upheaval.
I cannot factually point to all individuals responsible for the global calamity we are now witnessing, absent presumption. I will say my presumptions are more often correct then not, though in my position it's fairly inconsequential.
I don't know where to begin or if we should waste time "Right Now", searching for all the bums to make them stand in the corner of the classroom. As the President stated last night... Though these acts were reprehensible, most were "not" illegal.(Not a quote)
I've been told and I've read in other places, that "Corporations" by "Law" are required to above and beyond all else, "Work in the Shareholders best interest" I'm not sure if it's a fact, though I would not be surprised in the least! As far as private corporations, I'm not sure the same legal concern is applicable.
The big Corps of course will go to any length to reduce expenses to increase profits... especially when they can and you watch and listen, they will, hide behind the profitability mandate, supposedly initiated in the shareholders best interest.
Look at the bonus bullshit, Walmart is now throwing out there trying to look like an angel... After all the internal accounting, that flag waving $2 million or billion will in reality be 1/4 or 1/3 of the number they show to the world. I believe they're just getting a head start on the "Free Choice Act" issue?
In ending, I'd like to thank you once again and say we need to address allot of laws regarding Corporations, trade and the like, if we're ever to get this crap in check. This Holding company thing, I gotta look into. I noticed it's a very welcomed status/construct? Chow!
PS.I also wanted to understand, just what you "label" as liberal.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
The liberal America and conservative America, like the blue states and reds states are typically empty rhetoric that Obama has been fighting in order to find some common middle and united ground...I just wonder if the days of "with us or against us" mentality is over.
These corporate fucks can go fuck themselves!
I tried getting a quote from 21st Insurance, which seems to be a subsidiary of AIG, and they could not get me a quote due to some accidents I was in a couple years ago. I then get this e-mail that appeared to be from someone from AIG with a satisfaction survey, and a responded with a very unfavorable review calling them "useless" since they couldn't even get me a quote to inquire upon. So much for their claims in the TV ads that it is "insurance for the rest of us".
...why we haven't taken over these thieving bastards and firing the bandits in charge?
Geithner, get your head out of your ass and DO THE RIGHT THING!
... a haiku, a white cloth, a wakisashi, and a modicum of honor.
Millions for nothing
We have always done this, yes?
Why so serious?
and fire Geithner's arse.
Not holding my breath.
I am f*cking tired of Obama thinking that by just saying that the assumes responsibility everything is OK and done for. No it is not, you have to actually act on it, not just talk about it.
This situation stinks to high heaven, even if it is a GOP-led clusterfuck. The Dems have presented themselves as waaaaay to willing to not only enable but participate in it. And now they are getting out maneuvered at every turn...
Obama bette act pronto. And by act, I mean do the right thing:
Nationalize AIG, not just dump money into it.
Nationalize some of the big banks, estabilize the system and void all the derivatives, credit swaps, and a bunch of those "creative" financial instruments.
Make sure people start going to jail for this, so the message is sent that there will be no more tolerance for these shenanigans...
And, put a clear and coeherent game plan regarding recovery. Not just throw money at it, but f*cking put together some legislation god damn it. Fix the systemic problems, bring back some sane regulation. Explain people what your f*cking game plan is.
I am tired of Obama thinking that saying a couple of inspirational bullshit, and announcing more spending programs, while at the same time not following up on any of the responsibilities incurred by these rat f*cks.
And no, I don't give a rat's ass he has been presidentin' for just a couple of months. He is the president now, he is responsible. Since he has done nothing to request responsibilities from the previous admin. The ball is then now on his court.
I too, will not hold my breath.
I agree with you 100 percent.
Slick talk will only get you so far.
Okay, fine - It's not a mess of your making.
Okay, fine - Little Timmy didn't tell you he was fucking over the taxpayers.
Okay, fine - It's an outrage.
Somehow, Congress and a large segment of the population got all rah-rah and rose up when faced with a trumped-up, non-existant threat of an Iraqi dictator who was magically going to cross the Atlantic and kill us all in our beds.
But now, faced with corporate thieves who are taking their bonuses out of OUR tax dollars, our media and our elected leaders are reduced to finger-waggling and impotent rage.
Why is this?
Because it's all going along as planned. From the illegal war to this. It's the only thing that makes any sense.
They got their money and used it to pay off debt transactions that could have eventually lead to criminal charges had we not covered them. They gave out mad bonuses. Now their suing the gov't? Just let this company go under, which it will surely do once it's mouth has been forcibly removed from the gov't teat. Sure there will be a bit of economic chaos but we've already been through that but eventually the 'market will correct itself', as we we're promised during the last year of the bush admin and the we'll all be better off with this sad, sad example of a business dead and buried.
on "One Foot in the Grave", I don't believe it!!!! when things went from bad to worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNrLI3OBwg
me-oww!
Well, this matches my old, classic description of "chutzpah" - murdering one's parents, then begging the court for mercy because you're an orphan.
.
E X A C T L Y !
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
So, no more money from the tax payers. Let them fail. I have never bought into the 'too big to fail' bs anyhow. I do believe in 'too expensive to save' though. I've had cars that fell into that catagory. No more 'good money after bad', 'pouring money down a rat hole', fuck them all. Let all of the corporations fail. New ones will sprout up to take their places like a forest after a fire. Most of us will probably loose our jobs the way things are going right now, so let some of the big-shots go out the same way most of us will, pennyless.....
There are not enough cuss words to describe my anger while reading this post. Let the bastards fail, let them!!!! I am at the point that using the word "banker" is as good as using the word f**k to describe something vile.
but I am starting to think that it is no coincidence that the only people that Jesus lost his cool with, were them bankers @ the temple.
but I hope every person involved in this debacle...from GW Bush, to the Fed/Goldman connection boys (Paulson and Geitner), every criminal CEO, every person that was involved over the last thirty years...in the debacle of destroying the American middle class and it's way of life...suffers HORRIBLY for the rest of their lives.
I hope they incur terrible, fatal diseases. I hope they suffer from debilitating frailties, so they can SEE what its like to be handicapped...to be stared at...to NEED public assistance whether it be monetary or a simple government mandated wheelchair ramp.
The rat fuck sonofabitch Reagan stayed alive as long as he did to spite me. If these rat fucks are also longlived...I hope they suffer...terribly.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
... not because it's advocating violence, but because that kind of hatred does things to you physically.
It makes you fat. Bald. Makes your eyes bug out, your hair turn grey. Creases and wrinkles, your smile slides into a scowl.
In other words, you end up looking like Rush, Beck, Hannity, Cheney, and that lot.
AIG is worth about $100 billion, they wrote $440 billion plus worth of Credit Default Swaps.
We the peons have given them $171 billion yet maintain the posture that we ONLY have an 80% share.
You do the math.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
no offense Alice...but you posted links regarding the worth of AIG and it's businesses.
I told everyone in here YESTERDAY. THere is no AIG. There is no company. It's assets are worth less than their obligations.
It is DEAD. FINISHED. Kaput.
We are paying for hay to feed a dead horse.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
a dead parrot?
... it's not dead, it's restin'.
it's an ex-parrot.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
nooo MORE!
bring in...the COMFY CHAIR!!!!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Look for Monty Python Fluxx - a variation on the card game Fluxx, loaded with Monty Python goodness, including the Spanish Inquisition and the Dead Parrot.
I ain't never heard tell of such a thing!
I will damn sure look for it!
Great version of Fluxx.
*hangs head in shame*
2-6 players. Rules change as you play.
There's also a version called Zombie Fluxx.
I'm gettin that one too!
What you are saying would be entirely reasonable except for the facts.
AIG WOULD BE Kaput, they WOULD BE Dead, they WOULD BE Finished.
Not all of the $440 billion in CDS will go bust. They wrote the contracts so that if their credit rating fell they would need to post more collateral.
This we are doing for them. This is Paulson's Plunder. Geithner went along and paid all of the CDS off at face value.
So, there IS an AIG. We have an 80% NON controlling share. No matter how much we put in, as it stands now, it will still be an 80% share.
If they were to go bankrupt, we will cue up with the other creditors. The bankruptcy laws have been rigged so that CDS holders go to the front of the line. In fact they skip bankruptcy court altogether and receive payment before the court receives the case.
The Swap holders would receive payment before we do.
----
Here is Michael Hudson on what the REAL scandal is. Hudson, among other things, was advisor to Kucinich.
= ----
The standard insurance units of AIG have suffered no losses.
Here is Margaret Popper of Bloomberg from Feb 21, '09 in an analysis and discussion with NY Insurance Superintendent Eric Dinallo who is charged with the oversight of AIG.
According to Dinallo all of the losses were due to the London Financial Services Unit which wrote the CDS. This has been repeated elsewhere since.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
because you assume that the contracts would be bought at full boat.
That is not gonna happen. What's my incentive to offer full price to a dying company for it's assets?
Do you work for the government?
"Yes...let's see....these contracts are work $100 million, you have no one interested in buying...so...I'm offering you $110 million. What? No good? Ok...$120 million...but that's my last offer! What? You're gonna go bust and I'm gonna die in the conflagration? Ohh..ohhh...wait...$150 million...but it's all I got!!"
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Geithner has already been paying them off at face value.
It has already happened.
We the peons have put $170 billion into a company with a book value of circa $100 billion.
None. This is a heist. You have been swindled.
---
Here is Gretchen Morgenson in the NY Times.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
this is a public bailout of private stockholders.
In a REAL bankruptcy...the shareholders are FUCKED. They are at the back of the line.
$1 compensation?...did AIG eliminate it's dividend? Why do you think Liddy and the others don't care about salary. They actually can LIVE off of their dividend.
Tier 1 debt is repaid first, by selling off all assets of the company. Trust me...those sales are NEVER dollar for dollar.
Then Tier 2 debt...etc. Till there is no money.
This isn't brain surgery, and even the unschooled know these basic principles. The public KNOWS what's going on...that is why they are screaming.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
It is a bailout of the counterparties. The shareholders are already screwed.
The Bankruptcy law of 2005 changed the way certain derivatives are handled.
Some are no longer stayed by bankruptcy.
While you are correct as far as the way Bankruptcy Tier hierarchy WAS handled, the CDS holders may be paid in advance of even Tier 1, because they are not stayed.
This happened with Lehman, some of the CDS were paid immediately.
Here is Josh Marshall at TPM.
Here is Naked Capitalism.
This is MORE than brain surgery.
This is a series of events that were controlled by very powerful people.
They rewrote the laws in anticipation of events they controlled.
The public DOES NOT know what is going on.
The bankruptcy law of 2005 made it so that CDS holders can drive companies into bankruptcy.
CDS holders can drive NATIONS into bankruptcy and scoop up the remains.
This is the greatest heist in the history of the world.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
you both bring lots of information, and very good points...
I wish I could add something of interest, but I won't even pretend to have even as much information as you Alice usually bring to this site.
I just wanted to thank you both.
The only problem, is that after I am done your posts... I end up angrier that when I started :-)
AIG's Liddy committed perjury the other day too Congress?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
perjury makes it sound like he did something wrong.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
The insets are too long. Who are you addressing?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I don't know all that money talk! Liddy said the insurance side was fine and (FP) sucked? :-/
Study the symptoms not the virus...
That statement was correct as I am able to discern the facts.
The standard insurance business suffered no losses. The losses were all from the Hedge Fund masquerading as an Insurance Company Financial Services Unit.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
It's nice to have you financial sleuths around!
Is it possible to hedge my hopes? :-P
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Buy farmland and some farm animals.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Please disregard... I was having a "carrot" moment. :-)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Do ya think a similar scheme was envisioned with regard to the historical Citicorp - Travelers Group partnership?
Re: "Citigroup was formed on October 8, 1998, following the $140 billion merger of Citicorp and Travelers Group to create the world's largest financial services organization."
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup
Study the symptoms not the virus...
The Citibank/Travelers merger should have been illegal according to Glass Steagal.
The Financial Modernization Act which repealed Glass Steagal was passed in November of 1999.
The Citi merger should not have been permitted but Robert Rubin knew the fix was in.
Our government is bought and paid for by the Fat Cats. The fix is always in.
All of the big banks dealt heavily in CDOs and Credit Default Swaps.
This is not a cabal of Fat Cats running and ruining the world.
Some of the Fat Cats are smarter than the others.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act had a bearing as well as "The Financial Modernization Act" you note? Oh I just noticed it's the same thing right?
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Blil...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
The "Rachel Maddow Show" talked about this same issue tonight. :-)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
So . . 100 - 440 now, add back 171 and total. Now factor in "too big to fail" and it comes to . . uh oh. Answer: We're screwed.
Alice,
That's like one of those word math problems where they throw in other figures just to make one think.
O.K. I'll give it a shot...
... If AIG is worth $100 billion and we've thrown $170 billion their way just so that they can be worth that $100 billion, I'd say we're 170% share holders, ever if their bad management drew up $440 bllion of
insuranceCredit Default Swaps, or bananas rotting in a cellar.Am I close?
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
.
Q U E S T I O N:
Since We, the People, are major share holders in AIG now, aren't "We" essentially suing ourselves for a return of our money to be directly deposited into the pit hole of a company that We, the People, never voted on buying in the first place?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
Thank you.
Devil,
But the real question is...
WHO ARE WE, the PEOPLE, PROPPING UP?
If We are propping up bad investment properties...
... Then why am I still a renter?
I mean, if my taxes are being used to "protect" bad land investments, one would at least wonder where my land is?
Or are we just seeing a larger demon of an insurance giant gone awry?
Imagine if this was a Health Insuance Comapany?
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
If We are propping up bad investment properties...
Uh you answered that question in the first part.
me-oww!
Doh!
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
had the blackmail money been handled properly our 80% ownership would come with control.
as it is now, we gifted the money with nary a string attached.
... that our tax dollars went to 'retain' and 'reward' for their fine, fine performance, have decided to spend those tax dollars to sue the government for more of our tax dollars, which will most certainly not be used to repay their debt, but awarded to executives in the form of more bonuses.
This isn't about 'too big to fail,' it's about buying a pile of shit and pretending it's caviar.
And don't forget the redecorating costs of the lunchroom, restroom and CEO offices...
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
Their "Broom closet" is probably better then my place. :-P
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Q U E S T I O N:
Since We, the People, are major share holders in AIG now, aren't "We" essentially suing ourselves for a return of our money to be directly deposited into the pit hole of a company that We, the People, never voted on buying in the first place?
.
Reminds me of a Dilbert strip. In it Dilbert reports to the Pointy-Haired Boss that managements plan to outsource services backfired. After going through several other companies, Dilbert's company outsourced its services to the lowest bidder, themselves! And to make matters worse, they were trying to beat their own low bid and failed!
(If I screwed up this discription of this particular strip I apologize in advance.)
When we're all standing in line at the soup kitchen, if we don't see these fucking exec's standing next to us, we should be hoping they're part of the fucking soup. Or part of the new line of "Soylent Green" Cracker's - the Executive Blend.
Kind of fatty and tastes like crap, but somehow, it's still more satisfying then regular Soylent.
All I know is that it tastes 'richer."
actually, well past time. As in barn door open, horse long gone.
But better late than never.
me-oww!
We had a horse?
Damn thing's been an empty barn long as I can remember ...
That's what happens when you look for something like at a zoo exhibit for an animal that is not there or WMDs in Iraq.
Of course there has to be reform in corporate law, because it has been devastating for the economy under Reagan and the Bushies to push for deregulation that has been problematic to begin with. Sigh! I just wonder whether we would ever get back to the pre-Reagan economy (not necessarily like the one under Carter, though).
if you believe that, you are believing in the MSM hype and the following admin's propaganda.
He was never given a chance, that's all...
me-oww!
AIG seems a lot worse than Madoff since there seems to have been more people involved with collecting bailout money that did nothing to prop back up the corporate giant itself other than spending it on parties. Any wonder why CEO's are ranked among the most unpopular Americans like Bush and Cheney?
harshly, they must be made examples of.
Let them FAIL and pick up the pieces afterwards. It's clear they deserve it.
Look guys I am as pissed as you are when it comes to AIG and this compensation BS, but the gov't has no right to do this.
Just like we didnt like it when BUSH&Cheney was doing there BS, we should not be letting the people in congress make laws over contracts.
The gov't has no business altering legal binding contracts. Its unamerican. What kind of power are we handing over to those idiots in congress?
Yes it sucks, but we cannot go changing the law everytime we get angry.
Its a contract. It was signed. The gov't has no business messing around with it.
It happens all the time in business. Particularly in the Construction business.
Every bis renegotiates. It's business.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
The AIG management should have dealed with it and known better.
The govt should not be doing it.
The government can most definitively force a renegotiation of contracts if public money is involved.
I sure do hope they are paying you for the trolling.... times are difficult these days....
I have your tax money here, somewhere... oh, wait it's not here... not over here, either... damn... maybe I invested it in exotic derivatives AND LOST EVERY FUCKING CENT.
I'll have to get back to you on that.
Funny. :lol:
This post deserves one f*cking beer at least!
I need to sit in a tub of ice because now my blood is boiling.
they will be suing again as well if these 90% taxes go out to recoup bonuses. For one thing a bunch of them were paid to Brits. Secondly a 90% tax is patently unconstitutional.
posted from wiki.
"The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises . . . but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"
tax law is just that wiki easy, eh?
I was afraid of that as well, particularly how it might be used by a Republican majority (if there ever is another one).
The solution is to spin off the unprofitable units of the company into bankruptcy courts where they can sue all the hell they want and will get pennies on the dollar if they prevail.
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