Bruce Fein Challenges Obama: Prosecute BushCo for Torture - or Pardon Them
By Susie Madrak Saturday May 02, 2009 8:00amBill Moyer talks to Mark Danner and Bruce Fein on last night's Journal:
The President had a press conference on Wednesday night in which he was asked two questions about torture. If you'd been there, Mark, what would you have asked him?
[...] BRUCE FEIN: I would have asked him, since he's agreed that what was done was torture, and that the United States criminal code makes torture a crime. And there's no national security exception, no exception if you get useful information. And because we had impeached, in the House Judiciary Committee, a former President, called Richard Nixon, for failing faithfully to execute the laws. How he can justify not moving forward with an investigation when we have a former President and Vice President openly acknowledging they authorized water boarding, what he has described as torture, is a crime.
Or in the alternative, if he thinks that there are mitigating circumstances, and there's body language suggests that, then he should pardon them like Ford did Richard Nixon. And the reason why the difference between a pardon and non-prosecution is important, is because a pardon requires the recipient to acknowledge guilt. That there was wrongdoing. There was a crime. Just forgetting and sweeping it under the rug suggests this wasn't illegal.
BILL MOYERS: But he is clearly trying to move, as he says, beyond the past. He's closing Guantanamo. He doesn't countenance torture. He says it won't happen on his watch. I mean, shouldn't that settle the issue?
MARK DANNER: This is an issue that, as he has put it, divides the country. But because it divides the country, in my opinion, is one reason we have to confront it. The idea that this is about the past is simply wrong. It's not about the past. It's about our present politics.
Fein is exactly right. As long as we act as if a crime wasn't committed, we undermine the rule of law.
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Prosecute!
I'd be happy if they just ostracized everyone involved and assured that they never again could hold positions of authority (say above dog catcher) within government...local, state or federal.
And it's cheaper than prison!
Ain't good enough!
They MUST be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!
Simply ostracizing them is not gonna dissuade other from doing it again in the future.
They absolutely must be made examples of.
Just ostracize them? You're joking, right?
With no penalties involved how long will it be until police use waterbaording to get valuable information? "So we waterboarded a few guys, but we got thief." Is that what you want?
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about.
With, without.
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?
I say prostitute them.
Can you imagine dick chainey in bright red lipstick,wearing a frilly black corset and panties, with fishnet stockings?
I voted for Obama and I support him but I have to disagree with his position on the former administration concerning torture. Putting your head in the sand doesn't get rid of the problem.
Has left most of his important promises at the door step when taken office..
Really believe Obama is leaving Iraq..
Obama now states he will not renegotiate a new free trade bill.
Obama can not say he has changed the policies of Bush's criminal practices unless he follows the constitution and law to prosecute Bush and anyone in his administration for their crimes.
Obama is still given our tax money to these Global Empires with no restriction on keeping American job and their manufacturing plants in U.S.
Obama is doing just the opposite , he is telling them and letting them cut jobs , wages and manufacturing in U.S. while sending them overseas with our money...
When Bush was doing this the left , some independents , some republicans raised h... If McCain had won and performing the same policies as Obama which is a continuation of Bush we would be raising h...
They believe because Americans wanted a chance from Bush they would except the same policies for a different person using different words.
No wonder Bush and Cheney were so arrogant and laughing as they left office and talk to the news media , they knew d... well there would be no prosecution for their war crimes or any crimes... The fix had to already in before Bush left the office..
Polices are not changing , just the people and the way they sell them to American citizens to except them.
danner brought up the fact that now "torture" will be expected to be used due to attacks that will happen again. remember some people actually believe this country was kept safe due to information obtained
from detainees after torture. personally, i say prosecute. this notion that i should be concerned about democrats that were briefed does NOT matter to me. actually i wonder if they were fully briefed. i believe
and i don't know this for sure but i believe torture was a strategy to further instigate/rationalize
war(s) and occupation with old fashion FEAR. they used it to defeat kerry in my opinion. "the people"
need to be brought back into the process of democracy/law. here's our chance.
by putting it in the hands of the Justice Department. And, unless the Department is just like it was under alberto, I will patiently wait for a decision by Holder. I hope it will be to prosecute!
Those that continue to go after Obama on this will do so no matter what, just like the wingnuttia counterparts will do!
I think we need some Nureuemberg trials here. But, it's gonna go up like the hinnedngurg
I agree, but we have to do it. Even if that leads to information that Democratic leaders knew what was gong on and approved, this needs to be pursued.
We absolutely cannot let Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, and Fox News determine what is morally appropriate and what isn't. We have a constitution and treaties to follow.
I have watched two Moyer shows with Bruce Fein and find him very logical, smart, and an advocate for following the law and taking responsibility. Though a strong supporter of Obama, I think he is being a politician on the subject of torture and trying to avoid being the one making the final decision on what to do. He can't. This horse is well out of the barn.
Fein is right that we need to investigate openly what happened...and then it is up to the President to decide if a pardon is in order and best for the nation if the law was broken as it surely seems to have been. Whether Barack pardons or not will be very unpopular and he does not want to get in that position.
The problem is the American people supported Bush policies and instinctively refuse to see themselves as supporting war crimes. It is our cultures version of "if the president does it, it is legal." Our cultural version is that we are the good guys, therefore what we supported must be right. Just bringing the subject up violates our sense of exceptionalism and as a people we would rather duck responsibility for even looking at what our elected and supported leaders did.
Americans will punish anyone who makes them look at their darkside. They will punish a president who doesn't help them stay in denial and Obama knows this. If he allows this to go to the point of having to pardon or not pardon, he loses politically.
These are some scared, blood stained with guilt cowards, begging for the kind of mercy they never displayed.
I wish that progressives would slow down with the apparent mind reading prejudgment of Obama's ultimate intent. If the President gives off the appearance of partisanship in this matter, the GOP will use it not only as a means to protect these War criminals, but they will also try to make it a political issue in 2010 suggesting that the President is seeking revenge. I've listened to many good arguments these last few months on this matter, and of course I want these bastards in jail washing their roomies dirty drawers, but these criminals aren't stupid and the investigation will take time. Obama certainly has much more information than any of us, so I am willing to wait see what he does with that additional data.
Obama might be playing chess here.
By releasing information about torture he has created a national discussion on the matter
and frankly, the supporters of torture are looking pretty lame -
we need to keep the pressure going to prosecute the torturers to the point where Holder is forced by public opinion to take action.
This way, Obama stays "above the fray."
It's only been one hundred days. Wait and see.
BTW, I supported Kucinich in the initial going, then Edwards; the point being that I am no Obamabot.
We are used to a moronic redneck born-again fratboy shooting his mouth off about everything.
Obama may already be taking actions of which we have no knowledge.
We'll see, we'll see.
good points. i also believe this is obama's way of bring "the people" into the process. that's why you notice the RIGHT is telling us how we should feel and how we should move forward on their terms.
mcLiar telling us the country can't handle it with his somber acting job. NOW if this country brings up/challenges HUMAN rights with other countries we will be a laughing stock.
But calling the people who actually carried out the crimes "dedicated mena and women protecting America" kinda blew that concept for me. It doesn't fit in well with that scenerio. And looking at the Democratic Parties actions the past decade doesn't give much hope of it being the case either.
I keep forgetting, he's a poker player...and he's not showing his hand.
Anyhoo...I gotta get some laundry done, and think about procrastinating on cleaning the house...
I may just have a beer with lunch instead and play Resistance 2....
Later folks.
Have a great weekend.
this has become a political agenda/stance now much more than what it should be......legal. the RIGHT will NOT recover from this if it unravels much further. of course players at the top probably made sure their were players of the otherside(dems) involved. but dems that were briefed may have been lied to. the BUSH administration took a chance on this. they knew this day could come. that's why beyond other reasons they wanted mcLiar to get into the oval office. there should be prosecution but i agree that obama has now turned this over to the proper agency.
The democrat party has been taken over by the republicans and corporate money in greater numbers each election...
Not only are the republicans against lobbyist funding reform , but the democrats do not want to stop this money coming to them either... The policy of ?our? government now is power and greed...
Every since the democrats started joining the republicans to receive gifts and political funds from this Global Empire and even foreign nations , they have slipped into the same cesspool as the republicans and each year they fall father..
When democrats kicked a real democrat like Caroline Kennedy in the face , for a Blue dog republican like Kirsten Gillibrand to replace Clinton's NY senate seat;
Behind the doors support Lieberman over Lamont for the senate election in 2006:
Brag about taken in a right wing republican like Specter (check the record on his support for Bush) into the democrat party and give him seniority over the existing democrats , and fund and support the blue dog republicans ,, which have openly campaign for republicans over democrats in election;
then you know d... well the democrat party has left it's values at the door when interring office to govern our country's policies and morals..
There is no longer a party which consist of democratic values and upholding our constitution and laws...
exactly ,pete well spoken and ive said it many times myself, the democrats and the repigs are sleeping in the same bed ,
a little more seriously if, you hadn't used the noun "democrat" 4 times to describe the the democratic party.
sorry champ but i called them that all my life ,politicaly correctness is ......................bullshit!
for where he gets his talking points from.
bullshit
I would say he gets his talking points from bullshit, also.
It's been 100 days!
Why hasn't Obama cured cancer yet!?
It's the Democrat party of fascist liberal commiedom nazism.
Oh noes!
What a slacker!
what a noser!
didnt take him a 100 days to enlarge a war, give billions to the banks , say he saw no evidence the bush administration commit any war crimes , i could go on but you get the picture , right? right?
100 days is MORE than enough time to reverse eight years of Bushista misrule and over thirty years of trickle-down
Reaganomic, cowboy diplomacy nitwittery.
Some of us here could have done it on our afternoon break, after all.
said that cancer protects America now has he?
no ,actually i get my talking points from what the democrats, and what obama does , but as useual instead of showing me im saying things that cant be proven i get insults , ganged up on by the botts , reminds me of a school play ground , luckly you get used to the pile on , as i never have praised any repig on here , where else would i get my talking points from? i suspect many of you voted for republicans all your life , well i can safely say i never voted for one republic since i became able to vote ,
I've always assumed, from years of reading them, tyree's 'talking points' come entirely from himself. Is that so wrong? It would be nice to see a bit more of that.
My comment was about pete2069's post @ 9:39....
I have nothing to say to the other guy. Nothing at all.
no one will be sent to prison over this with the exception of....................thoes who gave thier opinion that these crimes were actualy not crimes, and the democrats will be so relieved that they will jump thru hoops and skip ropes for joy, yaa! we finaly brought the bush criminals to justice!!!!!!!!
to prosecute as DEMANDED by the laws of this nation then he should consider stepping aside so we can have a President who will allow the laws to be upheld. I supported and voted for Obama but this is getting ridiculous. Blocking legal prosecution of crimes is itself a crime for Christs sake!
Treason trials first ,pardons after conviction. Any pardons let's this vermin back into society.
Life w/o parole is the only way to keep theses traitors out of the gene pool.
Treason is never a mistake but it's always a mistake not to call it treason.
We don't want bush nazis dating our daughters.
the truth is...............none of this could have taken place without the consent of the democrats , lets see how many of them wind up swinging in the breeze!
Of coarse. Whatever. prosecute.
For the torturee's dying from their torture how long will we ask them to wait to confront george in a LEGAL SETTING.
Nothing less than an International War CRIMES Tribunal.
If it was good enough for the Nazi's it's more than just for bush ,next month before the victim dies.
The allegations that some of the detainees died from the 'enhanced interrogation' moves the crimes to a whole new level. You can't sweep murder under the rug.
Holder better get off his ass before Spain does his job for him.
of the moon.
ALL is the right description from george to the guy that mopped up the blood before the next "guess what I want to hear" victim was brought in , upon the pain of death almost, well most of the time but sometimes you just die.
to deal with the torture.
First he needs to bail out Wall Street (can't stop mid-stream), ramp up the War in Afghanistan, and deal with swine flu.
He can let other people apply the law to bush and cheney just like they do to any other criminals.
offer a pardon, but make it based on all parties testifying under oath to congress and then standing before the american people and admitting their crimes
that would be my solution too ,not!
If bush, cheney, Rice, and the other familiar faces were to confess to their crimes by name, and for the record, i would go a lot easier on them. I'm not too worried they have the character to do that.
I'm not sure the US has the authority to pardon war crimes. Crimes against humanity fall under international law.
And then do a 'Vitter apology', with thier wives, and move on? Ice cream and ponies for everyone. Hurray!!!
How 'bout we pull all the agents tracking down medical marijuana innocent victims and use those agents to track the traitors. And while you're at it start emptying the cells of the burners because we're going to need that space for the TRAITORS that TORTURED.
Good Day.
This is not a presidential decision. It is a LAW; America will not torture. Investigate and Prosecute. If it came from the top, pardon those beneath the decision. If it came from the ranks, below BushCo, then do as they would do: PROSECUTE. It is The Law! If we're so worried about Bush, then do what they would do. HANG 'EM!
It just pisses me of the torture victims , Our brothers and sisters who served in Vietnam, have been tortured for the last eight years . What would expect of the offspring of the silver fox, another animal by in the the bush treason family tree.
Didn't one son rob a saving & loan?
Wasn't another son in charge of security of WTC 1 & 2 until 9-10?
Now you got this cock sure pissant talking others into treason?
Sorry to my brothers and sisters that had to live their life hoping never to see another traitor take us to war on ONE BIG FUCKING LIE from this deserter, coke sniffing drunk?
To torture or not to, to prosecute torturers or not to -- seems like a big distraction.
Don't forget Rep. Kucinich's Articles of Impeachment, which included this:
ARTICLE XXXIII.--REPEATEDLY IGNORED AND FAILED TO RESPOND TO HIGH LEVEL INTELLIGENCE WARNINGS OF PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THE US, PRIOR TO 911
http://www.impeachbush.tv/progress/dk_aoi_bush/aoi_xxxiii.php
I never understood the logic that the crimes occurred in the past, and that "we should look forward, not backward." All crimes by definition occur in the past, whether the criminal is caught years, days, or even hours later. If the need to "look forward" or "move on" was the standard, no crime would ever be prosecuted.
Fein's point here is valid.
There is an essential logical flaw to the notion that, because we tortured people in the past, and we're trying to look forward, we're not going to prosecute these past events. All crimes are in the past when prosecuted. We do not prosecute people for future crimes. We assert that, under our judicial system, all people are innocent until proven guilty. Obviously they are proven guilty of crimes they committed in the past.
On the basis of the logic some are attempting to apply to torture, one could argue that no crimes would ever be prosecuted, because we're looking forward. According to this logic, all victims should simply never complain or cry out for justice, since they are looking backward.
On the whole, the cry for justice always looks backward to past injustices, while attempting to right the wrong in the present or in the future....looking forward. To deny the need to look backward, to correct injustices in the past, those who advocate "looking forward" deny the very nature of justice - which ALWAYS looks backward.
I campaigned and voted for President Obama. I expect more from him than this "forward looking" stuff.
comments regarding this issue. He has mainly said he agrees the US tortured prisoners, his administration will not be doing that, and the people who actually did the interrogations/torture were doing their jobs as ordered. It is not the within the purview of the Executive to order prosecutions (see: banana republic).
It is best that he not taint his office with any further opinions or thoughts. Then, it is up to the Justice Department/ AG Holder, and/ or Congress to take the elephant by the tusks and begin investigations,
prosecutions and meting out punishment according to the LAW. This is only about enforcing the LAW - people broke LAWS, people need to be held accountable - sooner the better.
I am appalled the discussion of prosecution of Bush aadministration officials is limited to torture. There are very many more reasons they should be prosecuted.
I don't agree a pardon is a useful tool. Ford pardoned Nixon administration officials and they hid under a rock for a while and eventually came back to wreak more havok.
Can anyone imagine how they would react to a pardon of these criminals if their own relative was murdered by these reprobates? Leave any notion at the door that an American life is any more important or valuable than an Iraqi life.
was especially enlightening for me and as much as I like Obama, I think the discussants are correct in believing that he has assumed an imperial role abroad, consistent with the drift of our democracy. A full and real exposition of our (and I mean our) torturous ways could be helpful in accepting and legalizing the imperial role- which I would personally oppose- or in reorienting our future activities consistent with our espoused domestic values- which have also been effected by the same anti-democratic perspective. Pardons are predicated on the acceptance of guilt and would be acceptable to me after thorough exposition of the crimes.
The way I'm seeing things (these days), the apple cart is nicely stacked and no one wants to upset it.
The bright shiny ones are at the top, and the ones beneath end up getting tossed in the garbage (that's YOU).
This is more of a comment regarding the Bill Moyers Journal.
A fine example of why people should support public television. Three highly educated individuals having a candid and interesting discussion on Bush, torture, and democracy. No half-wits like you see on FoxNews bloviating endlessly till you want to throw something at the TV screen.
Let's see: I've seen 'hope'. 'poker player', 'chess', with the requisite modals, 'might', 'could', and 'maybe'. That's all very cheering, but have you seen your government?
And... "we need to keep the pressure going to prosecute the torturers to the point where Holder is forced by public opinion to take action."
This was a big success during the Bush administration when 70% objected to the Iraq war, and he surged.
Certainly, I hope you are all correct(!!!), but I'm not going to hold my breath. Holder hasn't said much, except the underlings are free to go. I do hope I am proved wrong. In the meantime, I wouldn't blindly protect the Dems. They're in it up to their eyeballs, too. Everyone knew enough to know it was illegal. Even us (here), so they have no excuse.
What did boosh do
Sneeze?
Hey, what's that white powder spraying from his nose?
Glad to see that someone is making the same argument I have been making for many many months now. Pardons exist for a reason. If our country were supposed to be run the way Obama is suggesting, then the Executive (President) could just order his Justice Department to ignore any crimes he sees fit to ignore -- never once needing to exercise his pardon power.
It is obvious this is not what the framers envisioned. The Justice Department MUST put these people on trial -- PERIOD. Assuming they would be found guilty -- which is a rather big assumption, considering the recent story about evangelicals supporting torture -- then, and only then, should Obama have the power to pardon. This back-door pardon, of ignoring crimes and spinning it as "looking forward, not backward" is NOT how our system is supposed to work.
Part 1, Article 2 subsection 3 of the UN Convention Against Torture states:
"An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture. "
Therefore, this canard about the Justice Department signing off on water-boarding is IRRELEVANT. The convention specifically takes such a scenario into consideration, and REJECTS it.
If you will recall, the nine one one commission was comprised of Bush yes men. Bush and Cheney testified over a year later in secrecy, without oaths, without notes or recordings, and together.
If we are searching for the truth, what about nine one one?
Obama, et.al., are proving my old analysis:
The Dems and the Reps both suck. The Reps just suck more.
They're all politicians, and that implies dishonesty and greed. They're only "good" when their greed aligns with our needs. Fortunately, the alignment happens more often with the Dems.
A few have some honor. The Kennedys, in some cases, put the interests of the many before their own. Their opposition to the Paris Hilton tax cuts, if successful, will have a huge impact on their bottom line. When is the last time you saw a Rethuglican put *anyone's* needs before their own?
E Pleb Neesta --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b56e0u0EgQ
GODISNOWHERE
Blessed are the cheese makers. --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJUj8HJ4D8
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