College Student Jumps Off Bridge After Roommate Webcasts Him Having Sex
These two young people probably put a lot of time and thought into their college applications. What a shame they didn't also work at becoming decent human beings, because this is simply unthinkable. No, life is not an episode of "American Pie" and you don't get to publicize someone's private sex life for your own amusement. These two should be very ashamed of themselves for a very long time:
PISCATAWAY — A Rutgers University freshman appears to have killed himself by jumping off the George Washington Bridge after his roommate broadcast live images of the 18-year-old having a sexual encounter with another man on the internet, according to campus and law enforcement sources.
Tyler Clementi, 18, of Ridgewood, is presumed dead after his car, cell phone and computer were found near the George Washington Bridge last week, law enforcement sources said. His wallet was found on the walkway adjacent to the New York-bound lanes. In a statement released this afternoon, Clementi’s family confirmed the suicide and said his body has not been found.
Dharun Ravi, 18, of Plainsboro, and Molly Wei, 18, of Princeton, were charged with two counts each of invasion of privacy for setting up a camera in a dorm room on Sept. 19 and using it to view and transmit a live sex scene, said Middlesex County Prosecutor Bruce Kaplan.
Paul Mainardi of Woodbury, the Clementi family's attorney, said Ravi and Clementi were roommates at Rutgers.
"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m.
Two days later, Ravi posted another entry directing his nearly 150 Twitter followers to iChat, an internet messaging service with a live video feed.
"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote in the Sept. 21 post.
Ravi's Twitter feed has since been taken down. But the entries survived in a cached version of the page still available through Google's search engine this afternoon.
Prosecutors said Ravi and Wei set up a camera on Sept. 19 and broadcast live images of Clementi having a "sexual encounter." Ravi is also accused of trying unsuccessfully to broadcast a second sex scene Sept. 21.
The Clementi family released a statement this afternoon. "Tyler was a fine young man, and a distinguished musician. The family is heartbroken beyond words. They respectfully request that they be given time to grieve their great loss and that their privacy at this painful time be respected by all," it said.
What sort of mean little weasels would do something like this?
These two should be very ashamed of themselves for a very long time:
No. They should be in jail.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
I have been critical of Susie's posts before when it comes to scientific reporting, but I can honestly say I have respect for her in making this story more widely known.
Susie, if you are reading this post, this is the type of blogging that is in your 'wheelhouse' so to speak, and you do a very good job of it. /notsnarkingatall
on the NYT site, with their photos splashed across the center of the page. This post is just piling on in that it basically said nothing except "F them."
It seems to me there should be a new class of crime established: incitement to or cause of suicide, for which there should be penalties of years in jail, not a slap on the wrist like these wretched little weasels will undoubtedly get. This new age of instant communication, invasion of privacy and cowardly anonymity will only result in more and more cases like this, and that of Phoebe Prince. There have been many more, of course, but they haven't gotten publicity.
If lawmakers want to be of real use in the internet age, they'll address this problem in a serious manner.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
People are responsible for their own choices. If I want to hang myself, that's no one's choice but my own.
Please if that's how you feel, feel free. But no one should push you to it.
"Under New Jersey’s invasion-of-privacy laws, it is a fourth degree crime to collect or view images depicting nudity or sexual contact involving another individual without that person’s consent, the prosecutor said. It is a third degree crime to transmit or distribute the images.
If the students are convicted on a third degree offense they could face up to five years in prison each under state law. Conviction on a fourth-degree crime could lead to probation or up to 18 months in prison."
The same kind of bigoted, cyber-bullying, little weasels - like Andrew Shirvell, an assistant Attorney General for the state of Michigan - that wages a vicious Internet campaign against Chris Armstrong, the openly gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. This case exemplifies why Shervell needs to be fired, then prosecuted by the Michigan Attorney General and the US Attorney General for hate crimes.
They should be in treatment.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
No. Jail.
What's the psychotic behavior? Mimicking reality shows?
These two little amoral weasels deliberately and with intent violated the privacy of an individual either with the intent of, but ultimately with the result of. slandering said individual's reputation. Slander that led that individual to take their own life.
That is a criminal activity.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
It's not slander, which is a spoken falsehood which damages a person's reputation. Nothing slanderous about this case.
It is criminal activity however... and the family has a really good civil case for 'wrongful death', which was clearly caused by these two psychopaths.
The law that could and should apply here is the same that governs the adult entertainment industry, called USC 18 Section 2257, which requires proof of age verification (among many, many other things). Since the law is written to use as a weapon against pornographers, it would guarantee that the two perps would spend a long time in jail. For example, I doubt the two made copies of the age verification documents of the victim(s) -- two subjects, 5 years each for this infraction. Since they didn't make copies, they could receive 5 years each for not have copied and kept filed the documents by the subjects name, 5 years each for not having the documents cross-referenced by their "porn" name, and 5 years each for not copying and cross-referencing the documents by production title -- 40 years, each, so far. And, they'd both have to register with sex-offenders registries for the rest of their lives.
Like calling people Natzis. I guess it makes people feel better to use labels without actually understanding what it means. Psychopath: a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.
Taking video of someone as a prank is just dumb stuff kids do. No wonder America is a world leader in prison population. On the right you have a bunch of moralists and bigots, and on the left you have a bunch of overly-emotional, hyper-reactionary, moral supremacists. When are you people going to start thinking on your own?
You can really tell about someones psyche on how they relate to this. Something tells me you missed a few human kindness and decency lessons while growing up.
I always say: "Suicide is a VERY permanent solution to a temporary problem."
* There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.
"Mugsy's Rap Sheet": Recording history for those who seek to rewrite it.
So does every other mental health professional on the planet and to patients it doesn't sound very sincere any more since every professional they've seen has said the exact same thing.
My point is that even though the sentiment is 100% correct I don't think that exact quote is a very effective thing to say any more.
doesn't seem temporary at all. It's impossible to imagine that the pain will end and that the pain will get better.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
That quote is neither original nor very appropriate really....
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
No, actually. Suicide didn't solve the problem, which is the amoral character of the two fuckheads who posted that video.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
Probably two homophobic Reslug weasels.
They should be expelled from Rutgers. There's got to be a standard of behavior for dorm living. It will be interesting to see what university picks them up next. Who would ever consider hiring them?
Post their picture everywhere.
Put their fucking faces on Youtube, Myspace, Facebook and every other social networking site on the globe.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
in your city.....
They can get a taste of their own medicine.
... this story will die soon. They look like two well off kids (Who wears formal attire for their yearbook pics?). So I am sure their parents are well connected. I am sure they will find them a nice private college to get their business or communications degrees in no time.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Hope this haunts them the rest of their lives.
The larger problem is that gay people feel they have to hide who they are. If we as a country could grow up and accept gay people and not make it such a taboo, maybe we could save lives in the future.
This sad story was discussed on Morning Joe this morning and while they talked about everything we do being caught on camera and how places like facebook can come back to haunt people, they never mentioned the attitude of so many Americans toward the gay population. Let's begin there.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
ITA. We need a dialogue on the attitudes towards gays. It's why Eddie Long allegedly became a predator. It's not that he's probably gay himself - and that's what his problem appears to be.
Rather than be honest about his sexuality, he's coercing young men into having sex with him under the guise of fatherly, religious leadership.
If there is an honest discussion of attitudes about gays, then there's no predators like Eddie Long.
Eddie Schlong?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Oh, no, Eddie set my gaydar ringing the first time I saw his 'bodybuilding' photos.
but I'd go even broader - it has to do with the general lack of tolerance and the increase in bigotry (of all kinds) in our society, which is aided and abetted by the people who are supposedly 'leaders'. I'm not just speaking of political leaders, but also business leaders, religious leaders, and the media.
The atmosphere created by all of these groups and more, is that anything goes - free speech, right??
Well, cruelty, bigotry, denigration and character assassination turn out not to be free. But, they've been teaching our young people, by example, that lying, cheating, stealing, and worse is okay if you can get away with it. Many of them should also Be in Jail!
(Unfortunately, there was also a story on CNN (I think) about a wonderful 13 yr-old boy in TX(?) who recently committed suicide with a gun because of bullying at school. He had apparently just told his parents he was gay, but he was also tormented by schoolmates because he was much smaller than they were.)
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
It's like people can't tell the difference between "entertainment" and "life."
The young victim apparently was a violinist. Why don't we treasure him as a musician?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Was the webcast of him playing a violin?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...that they go to jail for a long time, cause if it was my child that they had done this to, and who had been so distraught that he felt he had to 'end it all', and they were walking around free...they'd be 'fair game'. Sure, I'd 'cooperate with authorities'...up until those authorities did what needs to be done in this case, then if I felt that the punishment was inadequate, I'd 'make up the difference'.
...you beat me to it - what I wanted to say.
I'll just add that they probably were raised by weasels, and that's probably an insult to weasels.
Exactly. From the perspective of a parent...if I decided to take justice into my own hands...what are they going to do?
I'd stand in front of the judge and was asked what my plea was...I'd say..."Guilty. Do whatever you want to me."
From my perspective...after what had happened...there'd be no point.
I remember many years ago seeing a video on one of the crime reality shows. A child murderer was being transported back to the state of the murder. He was handcuffed to a law officer and coming through the airport. The media was there as the murdered child was a young girl. A man stepped away from a bank of phone booths as the suspect was walking past...put a gun to the suspect's head...fired...and killed him. The officer that was handcuffed to the suspect just stood there, stunned. The shooter was the young girl's father.
I thought it was beautiful.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
... is in the eye of the beholder.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Sounds more like premeditated murder to me.
Beautifully planned.
Do you have children?
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
... doesn't place you or anyone else above the law. What you're endorsing here is a premeditated revenge killing. That's still murder, no matter how you rationalize it.
that would be my thought.
College Republicans
like this?"
Overprivledged assholes.
I agree with LaP, I think this deserves jail time.
May they be thrown out of the university
No reputable university accepts them later
And they become wastrels
Or community college educated
Governors of Alaska....
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I'm a gay man, and I find this really sad...all the way around. I, too, remember what a hell it was to be a gay adolescent.
Eighteen-year-olds are really still quite young. They're usually not mature enough to figure out well what's right and what's not.
These two kids will probably feel awful about this for the rest of their lives. If they don't, they're beyond redemption anyway.
That being said, I do hope some good comes from this really sad event...that people get a clue about how they need to respect one another. In the ideal world the two who did this willl actively engage in speading the word about tolerance and decent respect for other people.
18 year olds are adults. They are recognized by the law as adults. Everyone likes to argue that 18 year olds should be allowed to drink, but when they commit a crime...suddenly they are children.
Bullshit. These two knew exactly what they were doing.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
The knowledge of what they have done should be enough punishment for these kids if they have any shred of deceny.
Having taught high-school, it never ceases to amaze me how savage young people can be to one another.
I also find it really sad that Clementi apparently felt he had no options...what's up with that?
I also find it really sad that Clementi apparently felt he had no options...what's up with that?
Interesting that your deep insight into student savagery prevents you from understanding emotions like humiliation.
Didn't finish the psych part of your education studies, huh.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
Gee, I don't know, why don't you ask him. What a comment. Where exactly does a sentiment like that come from?
I was wondering, where you were going with your original runaway "concern" post. And I should not have been surprised that it was heading, where all these sort of postings always go: to blame the victim.
niiiiiiiice.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Metrodorus I agree with you. (I'm also gay and a teacher.) I doubt either of these kids ever thought ahead to the repercussions of what they were doing. It was a very nasty prank probably geared to inflating their own egos and popularity by taking down another; "kids" are cruel. They probably had a crowd to entertain, who are equally guilty. (LIke in that movie with Jodie Foster where she gets raped in the bar and everyone cheers.) In hindsight I'm sure they feel terrible and it will haunt them the rest of their lives. How could it not?
I'm no legal expert. I think people want vengeance and I can understand the anger. I don't know how American law handles such situation. They didn't actually kill him, they drove him to the depths of despair. Is there a law for that?
far left loon >.<
Tyler's parents should be filing lawsuits to take away these weasels trust funds, and their parents' shyt.
I was wondering the other day if james o'keefe and even faux ambush reporters could be charged with invasion of privacy.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
One of the biggest travesties that has come out of media deregulatioln is the literally complete non enforcement of libel & slander laws, and prosecution for invasion of privacy.
The corporatization of our government has also led to the trivialization of our laws.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
Do you really want THREE casualties of this event? The compassion/intelligence by some of the liberals at this site rivals that of the neocons.
Facebook is a social network being used by millions of socially retarded individuals. It's like giving car keys to anyone who is tall enough to press the pedals and see over the steering wheel.
These kids obvioulsy did not have the tools to realize that what they were doing was potentially harmful. And if they did they have yet to develop any sense of compassion for other human beings.
And yet they can still be saved. They need to be sat down with an aggressive shrink who will put them in touch not only with their inability for compassion but with their guilt. It should be laid out in front of them until they fully comprehend that wasting their lives with such idiocy as Facebook and Twitter carves away at their humanity and their potential as productive members of society.
And Facebook should be categorized just below porn sites as an internet resource. Parents should be blocking this site so fast it shorts out by dinner time today.
JMHO
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
Coerced psychotherapy?
Did't they practice that in Siberia?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
coerced incarceration? Which one will be more effective? Which one will be more COST effective?
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
coerced incarceration
Coerced incarceration.
Hmmm...I believe that our cirminal justice system involves little things like trials, and attorneys and due process.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
Furthermore, equating the request of responsibility for people's actions with a form of victimization, and the language you used to frame your post ("These kids obvioulsy did not have the tools to realize that what they were doing was potentially harmful") leads me to believe that you seem to have a significant deal of trouble distinguishing the basic fact that the victim here is the kid who killed himself, not the two sociopaths who broad-casted his sexual life in public with the express objective of shaming him.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
your comment makes no sense.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
has nothing to do with it making sense or not.
You were the one trying to twist the aggressors as the victims, while trying to put the burden on the actual victim. It is a weasel approach all too commonly disguised under the pretense of "concern." The fact that you considered basic human empathy a "tool" tells me a lot about where you are coming from.
Again, in case you are having trouble distinguishing: Kid who gets harassed and kills himself as a response is the VICTIM, bullies who broadcast his intimate moments to embarrass and harass him are the VICTIMIZERS. Maybe the problem is that "victimizer" also does not mean what you think it does?
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
I do not "twist" anyone as victim or victimizer. Your ridiculous assumption has no place in a rational debate like this one.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
Made sense to me...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Do you really want THREE casualties of this event?
Criminal event. Why do you hate the law?
These kids obvioulsy did not have the tools to realize that what they were doing was potentially harmful.
Yeah...theyre just littttle baaaabies. Smart enough to get into college, but not smart enough to understand right and wrong.
And yet they can still be saved.
Agreed. Time in the slammer is good for the soul.
And Facebook should be categorized just below porn sites as an internet resource.
I think it should be shut down. Obviously, it is a danger to the psychologically unstable. To protect society, it should not be allowed!
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
Don't you see that blind reaction is exactly what happened here? Jesus fucking Christ you're JUST LIKE THEM!!!
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
It's called justice.
Put them on trial. They committed a crime.
You're pissed off because you know as I do, that they are guilty of a crime.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
You want revenge. You have already decided they are guilty. I want change.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
No. I said they should be tried.
Now....as far as guilt. Duuuuuh. They did it, there is evidence that they did it...the tweets.
Only thing in question is intent.
If they knowingly did this to humiliate with intent to somehow drive him out of the school...well...that's one thing. However, not foreseeing consequences does not excuse a crime.
Ignorance of the law also is not an excuse.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
It's about ACCOUNTABILITY. Something severely lacking in our society. They knew damn well what they were doing. I hope they receive the maximum consequences possible. I'm sick and tired of stupid assholes who think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want.
Just yesterday, we learned of a 13-year old boy who was also gay and also committed suicide because of constant harassment from peers. I'm not gay, but feel for these people. They were born this way and they suffer terribly because of it.
This country is a bunch of thugs. It's time to make examples of these bastards.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
not being able to tell between the victim and the victimizer.
The young of today can be totally heartless. Two recent examples:
A young girl was gang raped at a rave
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/sto...
A young girl beaten to death, a facebook memorial page was violated by lower than scum human monsters.
http://www.globaltvbc.com/world/North+Delta+t...
How could so called human being do this to others. To mock a girl who's been beaten to death is barbaric.
directly caused this young man to commit suicide - a life is taken in what I'd have no problem calling a callous disregard for life. Kind of like drunk driving - hey I didn't mean to.
How about the woman who posed along with her daughter as a neighborhood girl's online boyfriend - directly causing the young girl to commit suicide. I don't think she received any punishment at all.
Since your so adamant that Treatment is the way to go, I wonder how you feel about the other case? Is it just that people who commit suicide due to someone elses actions. their lives are considered less valuable ?
I don't mind them receiveing treatment at all. However, I think they should be brought to trial, and if that's the verdict, fine.
far be it from me to stand in the way. IMO The roots of this problem are deeper than what the justice system can do to rectify it.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
Accountability. You know, consequences for your bad decisions? Doing harm to others?
It's possible to provide both due process, jail time, and therapy. They are not mutually exclusive.
"These kids obvioulsy did not have the tools to realize that what they were doing was potentially harmful"
What? How old were you when you understood that seeing other people naked was embarrasing to them? Maybe five or six? Sorry, an 18 year old understands that broadcasting someone else's sexual encounter is going to be extremely embarrasing to that person. And they didn't know how far out of the closet Clementi was - did his parents know? His extended family? His friends back home?
They had to have known that what they were doing had the potential to cause extreme embarrasment, and how it didn't occur to them that it might ruin Clementi's life is beyond me.
It's as simple as that. The motive was to humiliate another student, either to cause emotional harm for the victim, or voyeuristic-pleasure for the perpetrators, or most likely, both.
I agree, let's drop the ridiculous assumption that these "kids" didn't understand the consequences of their actions.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
So if you humiliate someone that is intent to kill or cause death? Maybe they understood that it was humiliating but how did they know this kid was emotionally unstable enough that he would kill himself over a video? Would YOU kill yourself over something like this?
This whole discussion is moving into a realm where some fucking idiot might think I'm actually defending these kids. I am not. I am simply trying to point out that maturity is relative, that Facebook is dangerous, and that caging people is not the solution to our social problems.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
but they initiated an action designed to thoroughly humiliate a guy they apparently did not know well enough. They didn't care if he existed in utter misery after their stunt, why should we assume they care if he killed himself.
You are assigning feelings to these two which would be considered "facts not in evidence.' We have no proof whatsoever these two are compassionate, but you ride to their rescue as if they were Teh World's Greatest Puppy Savers who made one tragic misstep.
They pulled the stunt more than once on this guy. And because we don't agree with you, our "compassion/intelligence...rivals that of the neocons." Really? NOW that assessment is right out of the Thug/Teabag/ Neocon playbook--"If you disagree, you're HITLER!"
Get a grip.
me-oww!
to anyone, so don't project onto me. And nice decent into Goodwin's Law.
I don't know these kids, and I don't know the young man who was the victim. And neither do you. I am trying to stay objective and you are just one more person who cannot deal objectively with this crime. And yes it IS a crime.
If these kids are convicted, then so be it. I am simply pointing out what a waste it would be to feed these kids to the prison industrial complex without first assessing whether they might be salvaged by an intervention that would not destroy all three lives. And now I find myself butting my head trying to get some so-called open minded people to entertain some alternatives to our justice as usual. Accountability is one thing. Creating hardened criminals out of stupid kids is not acheiving accountability.
One other note. I feel for the victim's family. Our society IS so homophobic that is is tragic that some kid is so confused and ashamed of his sexuality that he has to kill himself to deal with this humiliation. But is his reaction indeed secondary to not having developed the social skills to deal with two retards who are bullying him? Was he not MATURE enough? If he was 18 why are the folks here advocating for prison not questioning the accountability of a young man who used this method to deal with his humiliation?
I put these questions out there not to defend any party or to place blame, but to stimulate discussion and ask people to question EVERYTHING. If people like Miss Kitty want to turn it personal, and accuse me of using the neocon playbook, it reflects on them more than me. I have the strength to brush off such foolish comments.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
I was pointing out your branding of people here 'neocons' was a substitute for 'Hitler' to you, so I did not descend into Godwin's. I did not say you were like Hitler, I said you declaring people on this thread who don't think your way are called neocons by you, an action just like saying someone is Hitler.
Looks like you don't know what you said, and you have a hard time interpreting what others say.
me-oww!
you are not interested in discussing the subject as much as attacking me.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
on this thread with examples constitutes an attack? How stunningly deluded of you. Frankly I have no interest in discussing anything with you, given your lack of comprehension of not only what others are saying, but of what you yourself are saying.
To quote you, about you and your teeny tiny putdowns on people you deem insufficient:
me-oww!
Do you really want THREE casualties of this event?
Is that we're doing when we punish two sociopathic creeps for their amoral and illegal behavior? Gosh, we do we even bother with prisons at all?
The compassion/intelligence by some of the liberals at this site rivals that of the neocons.
Or maybe you just need to rethink your priorities. I've got plenty of compassion for the victim here. For the two insensitive, spoiled little bastards who publicly humiliated him and drove him to suicide, not so much.
You assume they are insensitive. I posit that they were stupid. You call them spoiled. You have no knowledge of these kids. You call them bastards. Do you even know the definition?
Put your emotions on hold for just one second and start acting like you should be treated as having one bit more maturity and judgement than these dumb kids possess.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
the people here are going by the behaviour exemplar provided by the 2 people themselves.
me-oww!
You assume they are insensitive.
No, I don't assume anything. Setting up a video camera in Mr. Clementi's room and then broadcasting the proceedings for the purpose of publicly humiliating him is the sort of behavior that defines them as insensitive, by any reasonable meaning of the term.
I posit that they were stupid.
And I disagree. To me, a "stupid" action would be locking one's keys in the car. What these two people did was a deliberate, malicious act of cruelty.
You call them spoiled. You have no knowledge of these kids. You call them bastards. Do you even know the definition?
Bastard: n. 1. A person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child. 2. (slang) A vicious, despicable or thoroughly unlikeable person. I'd say the latter definition fits these two quite nicely. And "spoiled" seems a perfectly apt term to apply to a couple of privileged youngsters at an expensive university who think they're entitled to invade another's privacy for their own amusement.
Put your emotions on hold for just one second and start acting like you should be treated as having one bit more maturity and judgement than these dumb kids possess.
You might want to put your own self-righteous indignation and misplaced concern for these two bullies on hold for awhile and start giving a bit more thought to the poor young man they victimized, lest you appear as insensitive as the wretched pair you've been twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend.
was a bully in his youth and in order to come to terms with it he defends the indefensible.
.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
If you would like to read immature, please reread your own posts.
and appointed Trantorian 'Arbiter Elegantiarum of Everything.'
me-oww!
Of COURSE they're fucking insensitive. What kind of sensitivity does a person have if he assumes it's perfectly all right to post this kind of thing on the internet? Violating a person's privacy that way is practically a working definition of insensitivity.
Stop bending over backwards to defend these evil little fuckheads. A guy's dead because of them. They belong in jail. And don't come at me with that "they're just kids" horseshit. They're past the age of consent. They're fucking ADULTS. They should be treated accordingly.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
I understand your original post, but I see it's got you in a lot of hot water here.
far left loon >.<
.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
You mean about the hot water, or that I understand?
I would hope these young adults can see the error of their ways and atone in some fitting way. I don't know the details of the case, so I won't conjecture what their atonement should be.
far left loon >.<
I appreciate your objectivity.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gO7uemm6Yo
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
There have been at least 4 reported suicides by gay teens in the last week. Each gay teen who took their life was the victim of anti-gay bullying. To me, this is a national epidemic, but as long as the theocratic fascists and other social conservatives keep claiming that gays and lesbians are second class citizens at best and sub-human at worst, it will not stop.
Election 2012: Be Educated! Be Active! Vote!
www.PhoenixJustice.com
last week I believe. This poor kid did not even make it past high school, it was just heart breaking. He committed suicide the day he came out to his parents. I just can't even begin to imagine the amount of abuse that must have going on for a kid of that young age to basically have no will to live. That level of abuse has to be apparent to the town, never mind the school, as a whole... and nobody helped or stood for him.
That this goes on in this country in the XXI is beyond shameful really.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
support lived in my county. Such a waste of a precious little boy, and such a waste of these gay teens who had so much to offer this world.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
You beat me to the punch Trantorian. All these people vilifying two young immature students who are going to be regretful for their actions the rest of their lives is shameful.
Self rightousness is always ugly.
I feel sorry for everyone involved. Too bad Susie is too busy feel the rightousness of her wrath to understand these things.
regretful or otherwise sorry that a guy killed himself? I think, based on the actions of the two that they'll feel worse for having been caught, losing their spots at Rutgers, that look in their parents' eyes, their parents' shame--if they are nasty and vile enough at college age to live broadcast a guy having sex w/o his knowledge, they're nasty enough to only care about the outcome, ONLY as it applies to them as it inconveniences their life paths.
Just because YOU'D feel awful if you were one of them, doesn't mean they will. Were you the type of person who would have hooked up a college roommate like that? It takes a special kind of asshole to do that, and that kind of asshole is a sociopath.
18 and in Rutgers is old enough to know better. I mean, if they thought it was OK, why sneak? Why not just ask the guy? Why? Because they knew it was wrong.
me-oww!
To paraphrase Rhett Butler, they're like the thief who's not sorry he stole but very, very sorry he's going to jail.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
How do you know that?
far left loon >.<
that we would all webcast someone having sex to viciously and publically humiliate them. Newsflash, most people are not that cruel and hateful.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
this type of behavior is not tied to politics, or is even necessarily anti-gay (how many times has this happened, but without the disaster, so we don't hear about it?), but is instead typical of the generation that's been labeled "millennials".
Very sad that this has happened.
you can tell there is something wrong with him.
But are we creating the same climate by publicly ridiculing them?
Hey kids, Andrew Breitbart called and he thinks you'd be a good fit in his organization.
Gotta work. Later all.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
I was the subject of a lot of teasing in high school, and no adult ever defended me. I think we shrug and say "kids will be kids" when 16 year olds humiliate others for entertainment. We accept childhood bullying as a fact of life and tell the victims to shrug it off. "Don't let it bother you and they'll stop doing it."
And then we're surprised when a couple of years later they think humiliating people is fun.
had seizures. My life was pure hell all through school. However, the summer (year) before the tenth grade I grew 8.5 inches. Miraculously became well, and ended H.S. with 5 letters and being on the N.H.S. So not too bad for a sick kid.
The point being, I never forgave those assholes. To this day, I wouldn't share a beer or meal with them. This poor kid probably went to college thinking he was leaving all that shit behind - only to have this happen.
My condolences to his family.
This poor kid probably went to college thinking he was leaving all that shit behind
Well said, and totally agree. Universities and colleges are where young adults go to learn and grow as individuals, in an environment that is supposed to be free of the ignorance, bigotry and small mindedness of society.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
I will never attend my High School reunion. I was small and awkward and so naturally a target for bullying. If I met some of my tormentors again at said event, I would beat the living shit out of them right in front of their wives. I'm a lot bigger now.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
I was constantly told, as I hear parents tell bullied kids today, "just walk away", "ignore them", and other pacifist bullshit.
Look, it's very simple. Predators go after the weakest targets, the most vulnerable among us. If they want to hurt you, they will. Ignoring them or walking way is useless and damaging to self-esteem.
If you are picked on, defend yourself. If outnumbered, retaliate later. You must convince the bully that you ARE NOT an easy target. That picking on you will get them hurt.
You will gain the respect of your peers and the bullies will move on to the kids who "walk away" or "ignore" them.
If you're a parent and your kid defends himself, and the school has a problem with it, threaten to sue them for endangering your child. Get nasty. This is your kids life.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
the kids were children of people who were "pillars" of the local society, including one girl who was the worst. When she got to high school she was the biggest religious hypocrite who continued to look down on me, only then it was partly because I wasn't Christian and probably because some people could have told that I was GLBT. The school tried to get me to transfer to another school so they wouldn't have to listen to my mother complain anymore, but mom refused. No one would throw that other girl's butt out of our school because her mother was a teacher there.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
This would be a good occasion to plug Dan Savage's recently-created YouTube Channel, "It Gets Better" Project.
http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterproject
IGBP was inspired by an incident similar to this one--except that story happened in a place where you'd expect homophobic bullying, not Rutgers Frigging University.
Although I don't have to...I will explain my personal views a bit more as people that may know me may not understand my position.
I am a big time liberal. I believe strongly in social programs, entitlements and laws and legislation to protect those needing such protections.
However, I do hold very conservative views on many things. The two biggest are personal responsibility and law and order.
Our society grants us many freedoms. Anyone who has traveled the world knows that the freedom we enjoy is unlike anything in most of the world. However, to me...that freedom comes with expectations. Very simply, because we have freedom we are expected to be adults about it. We are responsible for our actions, and we act irresponsibly...in my mind...we forfeit our right to now say...ohhh...I need to be given consideration. No. You break the law, as a responsible adult (which in this instance these two young people are), then our government has the right to enforce our laws and punish you as severely as allowed under our law.
Now, everyone is free to disagree. I have no problem with that. This is how I live. I KNOW as an adult, particularly in these turbulent times, that when I or others like me use civil disobedience to protest to make a statement, that the government has every right to crack down on me. I have no problem with that. I accept the consequences of my actions.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
... and you're entitled to your beliefs. It seems to me, however, that the behavior you're endorsing is entirely antithetical to the whole notion of "law and order." A person who truly valued these concepts would understand that the law applies to all of us equally, and that permitting citizens to take the law into their own hands to address wrongs real or perceived would lead to social chaos. I certainly sympathize with anyone who has suffered the loss of a child; it's hard to imagine a more painful experience. But I have no sympathy for vigilantes, and I have no wish to live in a society which condones any form of vigilante justice. Nor do I think that it's accurate to depict such behavior as a form of social protest. Staging a sit-in at a Rutgers dorm in support of the expulsion of these two hateful creeps would be an act of civil disobedience. Picking up a gun and shooting them is merely an act of vengeance... and for those of us who genuinely respect the rule of law, it's murder. .
Privacy is a real commodity these days. Kids live their private lives out on the internet in very public ways: facebook and twitter and email and webcams and utube. Everyone has a camera phone these days. And while the improved technology has been fantastic, the real life aspects of living life in a bubble have not kept pace. Texting while eating, at the movies and driving are prevalent, secret tape recording and internet posting are commonplace. Almost every store you make a purchase in these days want your phone number or email (or both) or at least a zip code. I can't tell you how many discussions I have had with store clerks wondering why I won't give them this information.
Whatever happened to treating people how you would like to be treated? Has this gone out of fashion?
My condolences to the family and friends of this poor young man who was the victim of these bullies.
Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught
will we realize we cannot eat money.
in a country replete with crazy, bigoted racist homophobic hypocrites who have access to mainstream media. Our young adults are all victims of these sub humans who are allowed to spew their hatred 24/7 on OUR airwaves. Could go on, but I'll let my readers do that.
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
is whatever happens in this case kids in this age group will still believe it fun to pull off what they consider to be practical jokes on the internet as just having some fun man.
Just three words: Laura Ingraham. This is the type of thing Ingraham would do IMO. People like this have no conscience.
From Joe Conason's book Big Lies:
Laura Ingraham first embraced the politics of personal destruction when she edited the Dartmouth Review, a scabrous periodical published by conservative students at her alma mater. Among the Review's most tempting targets - aside from gay students its editors "outed" without their permission - was a young minister then serving as the college's associate chaplain. In a series of mocking articles, the paper raised questions about the liberal minister's marital status and his possible involvement with another woman. At the time, Ingraham defended this witless smear as an acceptable form of "satire." After the minister filed a libel lawsuit claiming $3 million in damages, however, the Review settled the case by publishing an abject apology.
I guess that's why God punished her.
Said toooootally as satire of course. Ironical satire.
"Ironic, isn't it Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you." --Mr. Burns
Two insecure puppies, gonna socially make it in college- they actually even think that's important, got a great angle to be cool, humiliate the gay guy.. who taught these children all this shit? The whole structure of social networks; superficial television programming; commercialized environments built on pitifully shallow values, laughable fundamentalist 'morality' drowning out sane discourse; cynical manipulative politicians corrupting public space; selfish, greedy money grubbing individuals buying other stupid and or desparate people; a society willing to ignore its people who are poor and which is willing to use any socially defined 'advantage' such as skin color, or ethnicity, or religion, or gender or sexuality to get an 'edge' so that they might 'prevail' in their nasty idea of good: that's part of it. What to do with the sick puppies.. well as a gay man my first reaction is to drown them in a sack because I'm so fuckin sick of the thoughtless, ignorant, inhumane, cruelty.. but maybe we need to find a way to broaden our justice.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing "oh poor babies" when talking of people past the age of consent, who are legally adults. They're not fucking KIDS. They're college students, They left childhood behind years ago. Where does this bullshit come from?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
http://www.deciminyan.org/2010/09/tragedy-on-banks.html
A couple of idiots auditioning to get a job with James O'Keefe.
Sarah Palin, Joe Miller, Christine O'donnell, Rush Limbaugh, FOX news, and every other right-wing reptile for creating a climate of terror for homosexuals in this country and legitimizing hate towards them.
Them and all of the wonderful religious folks.
I don't believe in God. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
-Andrew Carnegie
It seems to me that the intent of these two college students is no different than any bully in any period of history.
This was an attempt to increase their own social standing by humiliating and destroying someone else's. The only difference is that here, a crime was committed because it was on the internet.
Let's not act like the intent and motive was something new.
There have always been assholes, these ones just happened to commit a crime.
Exactly. This isn't anything new, it's not directly related to politics, and American Pie isn't a TV show.
> What sort of mean little weasels would do something like this?
Christians.
How aweful.
Creating hardened criminals out of stupid kids is not acheiving accountability.
No, but punishing criminals who engage in criminal behavior is.
Wish you filthy rightwing "christians" would get the hell off this site! All you want to do is provoke hatred and malice toward these kids and whoever else you don't like. In any normal, FREE, NON RELIGIOUS, NON RACIST, NON HOMOPHOBIC society, this prank would have been just that, a prank by a couple of school kids, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! Mr Climenti would not have felt hated, humiliated and unwanted. Instead, he would have been able to express himself freely without fear and be accepted for who he is... UNDERSTAND?
Their homeworld was a place called Earth, located in an uninteresting part of the galaxy. They had an expression: pride goeth before a fall. Their pride was their undoing. I know. I was there....They did not listen, of course. Arrogant men never do.
your all over the place.
Rutgers should be ashamed
This woman lived across the hall - she provides a cover story by clkaiming the filimg was an accident. She shows no sorrow, remorse or sense of responsibility. Worse, she claims the video did not cause the suicide. Disgusting.
Watch it!! (the ffirst one)
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/rutg...
Yeah, he must have tweet the broadcast by "accident" it happens all the time....
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Guess he just fell onto his keyboard in exactly the right configuration to make it post the video on YouTube without, you know, his consent.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
No denying it's a very sad incident and that those 2 kids were utter douches. But it seems like a bit of an overreaction from the freshman. No random person on the internet cares who they see having sex, whether it's gay, straight, whatever. And it's not like Rutgers is a religious university, so it's not like lots of the kids there would care. I would understand it better if he would have been publicly harassed and abused by a Christian school. I know people who have been through way worse, and they didn't kill themselves.
... any suicide then falls under the "over" reaction banner in that case.
Next time you have a very very personal act ,which you may feel may jeopardize your status in your community , may earn the hatred of your peers, and may hurt deeply your loved ones, broadcasted for all your peers to see. You let us know how you feel and how "logically" and calmly you react.
Maybe, just maybe the kid was struggling with his sexuality. And trying to fit in away from home, in a moment of massive individual vulnerability... being pushed off the cliff like this was not the best of conducting situations for rational thought.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Then every kid who's ever had something they see as unthinkably horrific posted online would have killed themselves. And yet they haven't. Just because something's online, doesn't mean people you know will see it. No matter how traumatized you might be, it's just basic common sense. Within that group of kids, this guy's reaction was the odd one out. That's why I call it an overreaction, or at least not a usual one. Because it's not.
Normal teenage problems do not involve have an emerging part of your identity make you a possible pariah at school, in your community, and most of all with your family.
Plenty of stuff that kids stupidly post online is just as embarrassing to them, or would be if anyone saw it. But you're still assuming just as much as I am. Rutgers isn't a religious school, and we don't know if his family was either. If they were, then it would make more sense, but we haven't gotten any indication that was the case.
--> "Next time you have a very very personal act ,which you may feel may jeopardize your status in your community , may earn the hatred of your peers... "
This is a big part of the problem-- society.
Heterosexual sex would not earn you the hatred of your peers!
far left loon >.<
closeted at the time these little assholes did this, right? Coming out to your family and community is difficult enough (after 9 years I have come out to my mother several times, she doesn't want to believe it) without some little assholes outing you forcibly without your consent in such a traumatic manner. We don't know how his family and community back home would take such a revelation.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
What sort of mean little weasels would do something like this?
Republicans.
I hope Clementi's family sue Ravi, Wei and their families so they're paying into the next century.
Actions have consequences. It's a pity these pond scum on legs never learned that lesson.
...calling these two sadistic psychopaths "weasels" is not only an insult to weasels, but indeed an insult to the entire order of Mammalia. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's even remotely capable of being this cruel to another human being is utterly lacking in decency or humanity and in emotional terms is about on a par with the lowliest slime mold.
Personally, I hope Tyler's family sues both of these despicable lowlifes right into the next century. If there's any justice left in this universe, may both of them be required to spend their next incarnations as gay people -- IN IRAN. Maybe then they'll finally get a clue pounded into their self-absorbed skulls and realize that being gay is not a joke or a game...
Never trust anyone who insists that patriotism requires you to blindfold yourself with the flag.
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