Jonathan Turley: Getting Away With Torture?
By Susie Madrak Friday Apr 17, 2009 5:00pmOn MSNBC last night, on the Rachel Maddow show:
TURLEY: Somehow, he's equating the enforcement of federal laws - that he took an oath to enforce, to uhold the constitution, and our laws - and he's equating that with an act of retribution in some sort of hissy fit or blame game. You know, it's not retribution to enforce criminal laws. But it is, is obstruction to revent that enforcement, and that's exactly what he's done thus far. He is trying to lay the groundwork to look principled when he's doing an utterly unprincipled thing. There's very few things worse for a president to do than to protect accused war criminals, and that's what we're talking about here.
President Obama himself has said that waterboarding is torture, and torture violates at least four treaties, it is considered a war crime. So the refusal to let it be investigated is to try to obstruct a war crime investigation. That puts us in the same category as Serbia and other countries that have refused to allow investigations to occur.
MADDOW: Can't a president actually decide who gets prosecuted for breaking a law and who doesn't?
TURLEY: Well, he's not supposed to.
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Investigate, prosecute and punish, or join the criminals in the judgement of history.
America used to stand for something... other than profits. Remember? So few do, it seems.
It was your laws that made you great. It was your laws that kept you safe. It was your laws that protected the average schmuck from tyranny, and those that would do you harm. It was your laws that protected you from unscrupulous profiteers and scam artists. It was the laws that protected workers from unfair business practices. It was your adherence to the laws that set you apart from other nations. It was your laws that gave you freedom.
It was never your military might, or the CIA, your guns, or the installation of puppet dictatorships in hostile countries, nor economic imperialism. It is not torture and Homeland Security that keeps you safe. It was the law, objective fairness, and the knowledge you were protected in the courts, that you had a right to a fair trial with legal representation. And, that these laws applied to everyone equally, rich and poor, elected and non-elected.
Armed with these rights, Americans, in their zeal, knowing they were safe, pursued happiness and prosperity and brought the most extraordinary flourish of productivity, creativity and innovation the world has ever seen.
Now people seem quick to allow the laws to be tossed aside and put their faith in the powers that be. Big Big mistake.
I no longer think these things when I think of America. (But, pssst, it may not be too late.)
This should have been stopped in its track after Nixon. Once allowed, I don't know if you can put that genie back in the bottle.
I don't recognize my own country these days.
I agree with you.
pssst, it's never too late :)
What laws are you talking about, the Jim Crow laws, the Separate but Equal Laws. Who are you talking about being kept safe, those that suffered at the hands of lynch mobs in the South and here in the Southwest.
Some of us look to the ideal of the Unites States as a work in progress, not what it used to stand for because frankly your backward views fly in the face of reality. What the Unites States has been has a very, very ugly side. That's history, thats fact. Not your imaginary hyperbole of a great nation that leads by example and not military force.
What do you even know of this country's gun-boat diplomacy and overthrowing of legally elected governments and propping up ruthless dictators in Central and South America. Note, America includes the whole of the two continents in the Western Hemisphere, if you can grasp that! And how do you suppose the coffee companies and banana plantations representing U.S. corporate interests were protected, if it was not a show of military force to make sure those countries didn't nationalize what was rightfully their resources.
Those of us who believe in the Constitution, who have experienced and benefitted from its application to overturning oppressive and racist laws understand that sometimes the people have to take to the streets to force the changes in laws that oppressed us. It happened in the 60's and 70's in the South and here in the Southwest, we know what it means to fight for our civil rights. You have no idea how oppressed people see the world both for what it has been and the future of hope that have kept our struggles alive now approaching two centuries.
We have seen the first person of color now get elected, as we had one day hoped it would happen. Civil right struggles have brought that about. We know that, just as we know what the nature of the crowd attending the Tea Partys was. That is racism. The thought that a black man that they hold as humanly inferior to them can hold the most powerful position of the world motivated them to take to the streets. You can make you jokes about color or flesh color, or non-color, but people of color know where I stand! Many of you have tried to play that superiority b.s. on me and my peers throughout our personal histories and with struggle, we manage to overcome.
Obama is part of our continuing hope.
You think you know it all and I believe, if you don't know about Plato's theory of the levels of knowledge, you better learn it. Essentially, and obviously, the person who thinks they know, but really doesn't has the lowest level of knowledge.
"Some of us look to the ideal of the Unites States as a work in progress..."
Yes. I agree with this, and a lot of battles have been fought along the way to improve it. Battles that needed to be fought. None of it was easy. (The same applies in many countries.)
The USA, post WW II, fought to bring about many International treaties, so the abuses of war, concentration camps and torture would never be repeated. How does now ignoring those same laws constitute progress?
Your history of adherence to the law, right or wrong, differentiated you from a lot of other nations that had no such safeguards for their citizens. Laws that were wrong, or are wrong, need to be scrapped, or amended. That's how nations evolve and improve themselves.
I know of these civil rights struggles as a gay man. I've had my share of discrimination as well, from being fired (solely for being gay), to being spit on, hassled by police, and threatened with assault by a group of rednecks (but I ran them off-- not a coward.) My battles may have been different from yours, but they were battles all the same, and I fought along with my friends to change things. In Canada we now have gay marriage, and I was part of the fighting for it.
You may have had different experiences than me, but you haven't cornered the market there. I doubt that I have ever said, "I know it all," in fact, that would be most unlike me. You are free to disagree with my opinions. Please do, but leave the belittling comments outside the door, would you?
I am not anti-Obama as you say. He was my first pick, very early in the campaign. I am disappointed in his stance with the torture issue. That is one issue. I think torture is wrong, and don't believe anyone should be given a pass on it.
ealy comments on Obama, you would know that I pushed for him as the first step in gettig rid of republican rule. I know that power corrupts therefore there must be continued vigilance by the people who care and understand that. I said there would be issues that progressives would have to hold his feet to the fire. I have been consistent about that.
My first encounter with your buddy, tyree, was his attack on my opinions, using belittling comments. I have a long, long memory. When someone gets on my shit list, unless there is some semblance of honesty, they will remain there. Dennis comes to mind. But Dennis did engage conceptually and for that I respected him. Dennis came to realize he was wrong! I would like to think that I, and many others here, were able to effect that.
Yes, the torture issue is one of concern for me too.
I haven't seen too much on this but those responsible lawyers and other professionals are now to open professional sanctions and disbarment. That will take place. The sitting Federal judge, if disbarred, will not be able to do so, lifetime tenure or not, if that happens. The same is starting to occur with the psychologist and doctors who were involved.
It took us how long to get here. Me, I will continue to monitor and be patient. That knee-jerk, reactionary b.s. does no one anygood. That is the mantra of the wingnuts.
And, I respect that you openly profess you sexual orientation.
It appears we have a better understanding of each other. Thank you for your honest response.
While I was sleeping (so to speak), I thought about the rest of your comment, and will posit the USSR kept itself safe with a large military and was not attacked, but what of the rights of it's people?
And I'm not sure that gunboat diplomacy, protecting the rights of coffee and banana plantations, did much more than protect American corporations and trample the rights of indigegous populations and workers. What about their lives? Who, or what, protected them? Certainly no laws.
Always been openly gay and "proud" of it. I don't care what others think. This is me. I know who I am, I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise to please strangers. Educating one person at a time.
tyree has been here a long time, and he often offers some good common sense ideas. I was consoling someone whom I'm sure felt hurt. That's just me too. Often tyree cracks me up. Have a heart. We're all human.
I think what Obama did was very clever; releasing those memos. One can hope he has a grander vision, as Americans and the world will cry out for "justice", given the memos are out there, in all their goriness, on full public display. Let's hope that's what he is thinking.
If that's his plan, he may be the rockstar I'd hoped for.
if we use Pres. Obama's reasoning/opinion
about the torture/crimes of the bush/cheney
administration, that we should go forward and
not look backawards, then following that reasoning,
NO ONE IN AMERICA SHOULD EVER BE PUNISH/TRIED for
any crime committed, because that would be looking
backward. if this is how the political structure
is to be treated for "crimes" they commit, then
no American citizen should either.
We need to look forward and not backwards.
It's actually some type of super duper secret rope-a-dope strategy against repubs.
Huh! Caught you!
Like a shareholder class action suit against the government for breach of contract or something?
This all makes me very sad.
in the OLC, and helped write the memos will be open to disbarment. It will happen and guess what, if you aren't a licensed attorney, you can't be a judge, lifetime tenure be damned.
Turley is great at being a sideline play caller. He is intelligent and insightful not seen in many law professors. He also USED to have some balls when it came to actually DOING something about issues like this. He's the one that walked into Clinton's office and had Bill sign the declaration, after years of work, that Area 51 actually exists. Well, now we got us a bigger problem...
Turley has some good guidance on the issue of Presidential authorization of torture but NO ONE seems actually to have the BALLS enough to do anything about this. The press seems to be running away from their responsibility to pursue the issues; the legal community, with the exception of the ACLU, seems to be gutless to do anything; and, the politicians are running like scared rats to hide in any corner they believe they can find to not have to face the facts - We had a President that BROKE THE LAW AND IS GUILTY, blatantly, OF WAR CRIMES.
WAR CRIMES...Does this get anyone's attention ??? WAR CRIMES.
All this time I thought Professor Turley did not beleivbe in any grey areas. No wonder he does not enjoy Kool Aid.
First off, it chaps my hide to no end that no one may be prosecuted for these crimes. It sets an awful precedent, and erodes our moral standing even as our economic standing is diminished.
And of course, "following orders" didn't cut it for the Nazis, where even today a prison guard like 89-year old Demjanjuk could eventually end up deported to stand trial.
It's clear to me that the CIA broke international law. But since it was the U.S. government who told them these techniques were legal, I'm not sure the U.S. government should then turn around and prosecute them. More to the point, I AM sure the government should not prosecute the working-level stiffs unless and until they first go after the true villains -- their bosses who made the policy and gave the orders.
When I say "go after", I don't necessarily mean prosecute, but we should at least have some truth and reconciliation process, where we can reflect deeply on what went wrong, and dwell on the failure of oversight and checks and balances that allowed this to go unpunished.
I'll go on a record and say that I prefer the Bush Admin. to be prosecuted for willfully lying us into the war in Iraq... However, I'm pragmatic enough to see the reasons for going after them on torture, at least first.
That said, not only does it set an awful precedent to not go after them, it essentially rewards all these fuck-ups for being so thorough in the scope of their trashing of the country. That's what i get out of people saying, 'Well, if we weren't going through so much crap right now, maaaaybe...'
Oh, so they get to skate, where other administrations who maybe kept a buoyant economy would be prosecuted?
So essentially we're saying to the next admininistration that resembles the Bush WH (which hopefully never comes): Hey, if you're gonna commit war crimes, torture, etc... you damn well better fuck up the economy while you're at it, and do a bunch of other shit that's gonna take years to repair, too...
It's just completely off the mark.
I realize that Obama is trying to pick off the les unreasonable Republicans so thatthe Wingnut Extremists are isolated and marginalized.
Nut this is not the way to do that.
While Republicans don't see Republican crime any action (no matter how legal) Obama takes will always be grounds for impeachment and violent overthrow.
You can't make peace with traitors.
... of a torturer-protector.
Who amongst us can honestly say they'd be surprised if the right-wing smear machine starting going after Obama on this?
I heard him say that, and that's the first thing that came into my head. There is literally no depth to the psychedelic mind-fucking the GOP is intent on subjecting us to.
...the mind-fecking we're now being subjected to is this one that Turley is pointing at, right?
I'd personally love to see the right-wingers go after Obama on this but I guarentee you this is one thing they most certainly will NOT do because it all comes back onto bush/cheney!
Que dice Scott Horton hoy?
to prosecute war crimes the need to demonstrate that torture does not work.
I do not mean to say that the moral and legal arguments are not compelling, but from a practical standpoint, if you really want to stop this shit in the future, you need the trials to put forward not only the evidence of legal wrongdoing but that the practices endanger the countries who engage in it rather than make them safe.
...that the means do not justify the ends because the means are unreliable? Not so great a precedent to establish.
This is how they decided it was harmless for prisoners too...
Apparently (I saw over at HuffPo, but was too disgusted to even read it) they are now citing Jenny Craig wieght loss, to prove not feeding prisoners is a desirable thing.
Chapter and verse where the President has this authority as outlined in our constitution? He most certainly can pardon each and every one after they have been fairly tried and convicted but not before Justice is served.
Those given immunity must be removed ,retired but they have forever forfeited the right to protect us.
Just as we demand the names of criminal sex offenders we must know who these people are and where they live. I don't want any of these nut cases in my neighborhood dating my daughter.
Only traitors torture ,they knew it was wrong but it felt so powerful and fulfilling.
The torture trail will lead to the doorstep of GWB, and also to senior Democratic Sens and Reps, the ones in Intel committees who OKed torture for the CIA.
but it should be noted, Obama chose to redact a minimal amount of data. that is a good sign (though small)....
The 1 August 2002 letter opens with...
>Our advice is based upon the following facts, which you have provided to us. We also understand that you do not have any facts in your possession contrary to the facts outlined here, and thi opinion is limited to these facts. If these facts were to change, this advice would not necessarily apply. Zubaydah is currently being held by the United States. The interrogation team is certain that he has additional information that he refuses to divulge. Specifically, he is
withholding information regarding terrorist networks in the United Stares or in Saudi Arabia and information regarding plans to conduct attacks within the United States or against our interests
overseas. Zubaydah has become accustomed to a certain level of treatment and displays no signs of willingness to disclose further information. Moreover, your intelligence indicates that there is
currently a level of "chatter" equal to that which preceded the September 11 attacks. In light of the information you believe Zubaydah has and the high level of threat you believe now exists, you wish to move the interrogations into what you have described as an "increased pressure phase. "<
It then goes through a long examination of just what is proposed to be done under the conditions established in the quoted paragraph and ends with...
>Based On the foregoing, and based on the facts that you have provided, we conclude that the interrogation procedures that you propose would not violate Section 2340A. We wish to emphasize that this is our best reading of the law; however, you should be aware that there are no cases construing this statute; Just as there have been no prosecutions brought under it. <
...18 pages later.
At the time, I distinctly remember Professor Alan M. Dershowitz of Harvard advocating torture as a way to gather information from terror suspects, and enjoying broad support as he did so. The government did exactly what the people of the United States wanted it to do. It subjected brown skinned people to torture to keep our buildings from falling down. Now, basking in the afterglow of Obama's election, and the moral cleansing we imagine that gives us, we want our prince to convict the people who did what we wanted them to do at the time (Most of us.) ((Not me!)) I think The President has it about right. It would be unfair, and hypocritical, to punish people for doing our bidding, on advice of counsel, now that we want to wash the blood off our hands.
The Torture Never Stops, by Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwhtL0LNoQw
This is how torture is DONE! Listen to that guitar work.
Okay, he weighed all opinions on this issue (care to guess what the CIA's opinion was concerning the release of these documents?), mulled it over for four weeks and then decided to release with minimal redaction on Thursday. On Friday we call POTUS Obama an obstructionist, declare nothing has changed, and are ready to give up the fight.
Why are we listening to these wing nuts? Patience people, we are moving forward....
The ACLU sued to get this information. The Obama administration got every extension they possibly could, then released these memos as a direct result of the lawsuit.
It's not like the administration released this material out of the goodness of their heart.
but it prevents future defense motions from claiming that the POTUS had no right to distribute this information. The lack of redaction is what is really key here. If Bush had been forced to give these up, the letter "a" would have been the only thing visible.
"Bush-like" redaction could have caused more delay.
are floating a CIA connection in President Kennedy's assasination as a warning sign to Obama not to tread on them or else!
As the first American President of color, I sincerely worry for his safety. I am scared to death of the neo cons who seem to have garnered considerable power within the ranks of the CIA, the Pentagon, and NSA. Maybe I have the tin foil on too tight, but dang it, they all worry the hell out of me.
I love Joe Biden, but he doesn't have the persona to pull any of this off. If Obama dies, so does our hope for change.
I was DEEPLY disappointed with his decision not to prosecute the CIA rank and file... but maybe that's an opening to further movement in this issue. Obama can not afford an all-out public legal battle with the Central Intelligence Agency. Besides, it would be WAAAY too reminiscent of indicting the rank and file soldiers at Abu Ghraib... with the possibility of never pushing the blame up into the officer ranks... not to mention indicting Pentagon administration people.
I can only assume that Obama's BIGGEST problem with this whole WAR CRIMES prosecution is that LEADING DEMOCRATS would also be sucked into a position of culpability. There were a few too many that were privately briefed by cheney and his henchmen. In Cheney's ASS-COVERING-SECRET-INFORMATION-SESSIONS... he and Bush have likely DUCKED THE (prosecution) BULLET for all time.
No wonder that fat sack of pus called Rove has recently crawled out from the rotting Fox News woodwork to hurl insults at Biden. Obama is giving him a 'stay out of jail card' by obstructing justice in this most serious of all matters. Until those who perverted and broke the law are brought to justice for their utterly despicable crimes, the USA has lost any and all claim to the moral high ground in the modern world. Why should any foreign sovereign nation on Earth show respect to a country that openly and admittedly breaks international treaties and commits war crimes?
And I just took down my Impeach Bush sign 87 days ago, and now I've got to go find an Impeach Obama sign.
If he's willing to do the job, let's get him out of there until we find someone that is.
but that was last month so i think we should just put it behind us.
head on over to whitehouse.gov and send the president an email. if you want these bastards prosecuted, then lets tell him so.
while there, I scrolled through the prsidents' pictures.. that in itself was worth the trip!
since Jan. 21st!
We are so fortunate that the ACLU exists. At this point, they are among the few who've come close to living up to their promise.
I agree with Ferrofluid that senior Democrats must have been involved in the torture- the Bushies didn't act alone- just as these same senior Dems were complicit in taking us to war and in structuring the corporate assault on the US. Bush and all his enablers deserve a fair trial.
When the relentless wheels of justice grind 89-year old Demjanjuk, how can they ignore those responsible for these war crimes?
and long ago I said on this site, when Edwards dropped, that we should work to get Obama elected, but there would come a time that we should hold his feet to the fire. This is one of those times. By the way, Spain is continuing its investigation!
I agree with RickBeagle, a sensible person as I have seen lately at this blog.
As someone who succesfully achieved something by filing a quo warranto suit in 2006, I urge any legal eagles reading this to proceed with the logical extension of what needs to be done to expose anti-constitutional actions re: TORTURE.
what are y'all waiting for? the rapture to give you a leg up or WHAT?
but sign me up to be part of any class action suit against the sadists that are destroying this country!!!
..Bush/Vader admitted that they tortured. America does not torture but did. We've signed treaties that say we won't and we did. Memos were written to give justification for things we said we wouldn't do. The organization responsible to the world to identify torture said we tortured. But just like some spoiled child, "Nope, wasn't me! I didn't do it. I was just standing here and that water fell right into his mouth. His head just whirled around and slammed into that wall. Don't blame me; I was just followin' orders, sir or ma'am." 'Well then, that's just okay, we'll clean up the mess and it will all go away and we'll have such a nice, nice time, so don't you be nervous honey. We're going to be soooo happy!'
No accountability means no justice.
The worst thing is how this country went bat-shit crazy over a stain on a blue dress. And this, a hideous crime by all standards doesn't even rate a "Hold on thar, varmit!" from our illustrious press.
Mr. Obama, now is the time to take the criminals to task. You swore an oath to uphold the law. By not upholding our laws and meeting the obligations of our international commitments, we are less safe. Appoint the Special Prosecutor, Sir: Appoint him NOW!
Where's the evidence that we used a handkerchief and a tea pot to apply the water.
I bet my last dollar these CIA scumbag creeps had a hose from the faucet to the mouth for efficiency in the production of new Alqada warriors. Let's roll the torture tapes and believe me, just like porn tapes, someone has keep a copy.
Nothing like having someone's life in your hands when you can cause instant death by turning on the water a little too much.
If Obama is the religious person that he supposedly is then he's aware that there are 2 forms of retribution - legal/rightous retribution and illegal/evil retribution. And he must be aware that TORTURE is illegal/evil retribution and that PROSECUTING TORTURERS is legal/rightous retribution. Not only that but prosecuting torturers IS THE LAW!!! And what the HELL is up with that wackjob Holder calling sadistic sociopaths "dedicated men and women working to protect America"??? What kind of a sick twisted bastard would describe people who get US soldiers killed and radicalize and increase the strength of anti-Americanism the world over that way??? Because that IS what TORTURE accompishes - death of US soldiers, radicalization of TORTURE victims and a massive increase in strength of the 'cause' of those victims of TORTURE. When the US AG can stand in front of America and call the sadistic sociopaths who harm our nation and get US soldiers killed "dedicated men and women working to protect America" then we have a SERIOUS PROBLEM!!!
The ONLY thing anyone who has EVER committed TORTURE is "dedicated" to is to the fulfillment of their own sadistic sociopathic desires! You can take that to the bank! And if Eric Holder of the Department of Torture believes otherwise then it's time for him to resign and spend more time with his family!
Why it was RIGHT to try German soldiers and leaders for their WAR CRIMES and it was RIGHT to try Japanese soldiers and leaders for their WAR CRIMES and it was RIGHT to try British soldiers for war crimes in Iraq but it would be WRONG to try AMERICAN soldiers and leaders for THEIR WAR CRIMES just because they are AMERICAN and in spite of the fact that MOST AMERICANS WANT those responsible HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Let's just see if he can come up with a plausible explanation for why it's WRONG for others to commit crimes but RIGHT if the criminals are AMERICANS.
It's time to bring our troops home and allow them to fight for the country they love instead of fighting for political BS and pillaging.
and the administration must know that is the ideal. What other factors do you suppose weigh into the final decision on the matter. Do you think the Administration can just come out and say, you CIA people and your rebulican hackeys that justified the violation of U.S. and International Law are under arrest?
Some out there are even suggesting the CIA was involved in the murder of Kennedy, maybe as a reminder. Hum!
But you are right, social and mass politically directed process "en mass" is how the people get the attention of the rulers. But none of the Tea Party crap, which to veteran civil protesters looked lke orchestrated lynch mobs. Nothing more.
We have North Korea mocking our human rights standards while holding American journalists in prison. We have another journalist being tried in a closed court in Iran for the same justifications we use in our kangaroo courts. We have become one of the Axis of Evil in regards to human rights.
N. KOREA:
IRAN:
U.S.:
agenda coming back to haunt us. I've referred to Karma many times on this site.
A Colorado professor, early after 9-11 tried to explain essentially that it was Karma there too. He was attacked, ridiculed and finally forced out, notwithstanding tenure in a university. You know, a place of higher education. Colorado was dominated by red-neck, wingnut republicans then. They, as a republican dominated legislature, put a republiacan hack, former state senator brown, in as president of the university; the Prof was gone. We voted those idiots out.
Isn't it biblical that you should do unto others?
Reverend Wright was preaching the same thing. Remember his words to Obama after he felt he was slighted to appease the wingnuts?
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