Memo: 9/11 Mastermind Was Waterboarded 183 Times
By Susie Madrak Monday Apr 20, 2009 4:45amSo it wasn't torture, they just liked doing it? This is really sickening:
Waterboarding, the near-drowning technique that top Obama administration officials have described as illegal torture, was used by C.I.A. interrogators far more frequently on two key prisoners from Al Qaeda than has been previously reported.
A 2005 Justice Department legal memorandum says that C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times during August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah, who has been described as a Qaeda operative.
A former C.I.A. officer, John Kiriakou, told ABC News and other news media organizations in 2007 that Abu Zubaydah had undergone waterboarding for only 35 seconds before agreeing to tell everything he knew.
The May 30, 2005, memo, quoting a 2004 investigation by the C.I.A. inspector general, says that in March 2003, waterboarding was used 183 times against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the self-described planner of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The New York Times reported in 2007 that Mr. Mohammed had been barraged more than 100 times with harsh interrogation methods, causing C.I.A. officers to worry that they might have crossed legal limits and to halt his questioning. But the precise number and the exact nature of the interrogation method used so many times was not previously known.
Charles Lemos over at MyDD notes his close friendship with WSJ reporter Danny Pearl, who was brutally murdered by al Qaeda, and responds to the torture memos:
Those of us who knew Danny are very protective of Danny and his legacy because Danny Pearl was an exceptional human being. It is hard to talk about Danny and not wax eloquent. It is beyond belief to us that when Al Qaeda killed Danny, they killed someone who actually was interested in having their grievances heard. Not that Danny or I sympathized with Islamic terrorism, but there are many who think it important to understand its causes so that we might be able to better mitigate its spread.
In thinking about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the fact that he was waterboarded 183 times in the month of March of 2003, I cannot but express how this denigrates everything that Danny stood for. In waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, we have descended to the level of that butcher. We have proved that we are no better than them and I refuse to believe that. The West has a moral obligation to live up to the ideals that Danny Pearl embodied.
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I thought only traitors torture. Add: and those that protect them from prosecution.
Children raped at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has videos
Since it is an accepted tactic to waterboard for information now and Hayden Lied to congress about the breath and width of the program. Waterboard him to find the missing tapes. I bet he has a real neat hiding place.
Do anyone think that Nick Berg or the others would of preferred waterboard torture to getting his head cut off... sorry to be so vulgar..but please there has to be some perspective on this.
Would NICK BERG rather have both of his arms and legs cut off, his throat removed and intestines stapled rather than die? Yes, but do you think that the United States should become completely depraved and employ this tactic?
Or are you just using your parent's laptop for kicks, kid?
YOU need some damn perspective.
Every time I read or hear the words "torture" and "United States" in the same sentence, I get this sick feeling inside of me and I feel a sort of fear and disgust that I have never felt before. Even knowing everything we know, it's still difficult to believe we are talking about my country. We became a member of an infamous historical group who has tortured human beings.
Maybe they were only washing his face off.
Any idiot know it takes 184 times before they give up Bin Laden's location!
It's called vindictive retribution overkill, ala Texas style.
We've got a bunch of O.J.'s walking our streets...torturing and murdering in our name.
After reading the various pieces over the last few days, I am most sobered by the thought that there are human beings who can do this stuff to other human beings and that they live among us.
I believe this is THE defining moment for us as Americans, after Emmanuel's comments this weekend, and Leahy's BS about Rs being necessary to move forward on investigations, it is clear it will up to us to see accountability done.
Is there any case at all against this man, other than his confessions which were made after being waterboarded 183 times? I mean, Ted Stevens got off, because of prosecutorial misconduct. I just don't believe what our country has become.
Mon, 04/20/2009 - 05:59 — nycbassist
Is there any case at all against this man, other than his confessions which were made after being waterboarded 183 times? I mean, Ted Stevens got off...
_____________________________________________________________
Didn't larry craig and david vitter too?
Say what you want, but it wasnt enough.....
but you are wrong. Lets see if you could survive 183 waterboardings to reveal your bank account number.
It wasn't enough to what?
Pussy.
Try MSG.
have given that stuff up.
... does torture become less of an interrogation method and simply barbarism?
It's already been established that we learned nothing from KSM, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, or Abu Zubaydah. Nothing. No ticking time-bomb, no massive conspiracies or secret terrorist cells in America, nothing.
And this is BEFORE any of this came to light, so the whole 'if we talk about our methods, the terrorists will be able to train themselves to resist.
Not enough? You really think MORE would have produced better results? All three of these clowns were tough-as-nails and unbreakable?
From the precise point its use is considered.
[Deleted for violation of terms of service-Sitemonitor]
So you are saying if other do it (Like the Japs and Viets etc) then we can.
YES WE CAN?
What about NUREMBERG?
Judge Bybee, is that YOU?
Good one, Shadowgm!
if credible evidence surfaced suggesting condaleeza rice had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, we'd be just as adamant in our defense of her right to a fair trial.
In the article of Vanity Fair (I think it was ) in February, Wilkerson did come out and say that he and another guy, "John-somebody" did indeed have to coach her for her 'testimony' before the 9/11 whitewash. They were told to cherry-pick finding information to make it look like the prior administration had been interested in Al-Qaeda....
OK, if you insist.
You're a sadistic creepy asshole who probably has a small penis and tries to make up for it by acting tough and blowing farts out of your mouth that you think constitute some sort of reasoning, but the stench of your breath gives you away every time.
How's that?
Jeez, why don't you throw Khalid Shaikh Mohammed off 183 balconies while you're at it? What, are you chicken??
You're right. We CAN sink lower! I KNOW WE CAN!
Come, on America! That is what HOPE is for!
As Obama stated recently, "Let's look forward" to more torture.
This morning on Scarborough, Pat Buchanan said that President Obama should demand respect for our country from other countries. Things like torturing people make that kind of difficult. We will have to earn the respect of the rest of the world and that could take a long long time.
I had to turn that idiot off this morning...and I won't be watching Washington Journal (I emailed them that - like they give a flip) any more either.
I have spent most of this morning contacting whomever I could get a hold of in Congress to let them know that:
If we are going to just blow this off in the name of 'moving forward' then Nuremburg needs to be placed at the top of the 'waste of time' list. And this country (talk about being 'apologetic') owes one hell of an apology to the families in Germany and Japan about those we prosecuted, convicted, and executed for doing the same things.
I would suppose there are those who think I've gone 'over the line' here, but I don't.
I am sure they will be 'all agog' for a few seconds to think that an American actually believe this country owes anyone a REAL apology for something....but we shall see if this gets through at all. I did remind the staffers and the 'machines' that Clinton was wrong in his behavior, and in 'obstructing justice'..but what he did was no where near as egregious as what this prior administration has come out and admitted to doing - with the attitude, after all, "just what is going to be done, and by whom!!!!!!"
Just sick of it.
So, it isn't as though we don't have enough evidence, for crying out loud. Hopefully because of all of us (I have never seen so many 'message boxes' being so full so early...or have they just shut them off?) we can make them as crazy as they have made us)
..and how long, with this sort of "mentality" in the U.S., will it be before those now-former war-criminal/torturers' families sue the U.S.? They could do it tomorrow with Emmanual's statement echoing, presumably, the President's attitude at the moment.
How long will it be before they, the GOP, the hate talk-show hosts, the MSM, go after BHO for NOT Prosecuting the torturers? I'm waiting every day for that lunacy to start. I'm waiting every day that Obama will come to his senses. I'm waiting every day for OBL to be captured and/or killed and I'm waiting every day for sanity to be returned to this country. I'm glad I'm not holding my breath.
the media's Hogan's Heroes attitude have gone a long way in rehabilitating Nazism. What should be a bit of a red flag is that if this can be done with impunity to perceived external threats, why shouldn't it eventually be ok for perceived internal threats in a future administration, also without consequences?
You can't DEMAND respect, it must be earned.
I'm so sick of these damn rightwing studio toughguys.
They can all go piss up a fuckin rope!
this ridiculous non-story about obama meeting with chavez is featured on the front page of the chicago tribune, and it was the #2 story on cbs this morning.
nothing about torture, nothing about jane harman. nope, nothing to see here, folks.
the irony, of course, is that if the msm did the one thing we know they'll never do (their jobs), they'd save their floundering industry.
as such, it continues to amuse watching them spiral down the toilet.
liberalNmoderation and bullfrog. I agree 100% with both your posts.
In expressing their intent to 'look to the future' and not get caught up in retribution, the Obama Administration has ceded their moral authority, and, thus, that of the United States in many areas.
First, it's not about tit-for-tat or retribution. These CRIMINALS broke international and federal law. They trampled the Constitution for the sake of their political agenda. It is not enough to simply say, 'we don't do that anymore;' we need to completely discredit the theories of power and expediency that made torture possible, such that these actions cannot be permitted again through another executive order down the line. The authors of the policy must be held accountable for an opinion that is legally wrong, ethically wrong, and intellectually dishonest.
The concept of moral authority is not simply right v. wrong; it is the cornerstone of military victory as defined by Sun Tzu (and, thus, when George W. Bush failed this same test, it was pretty much written that our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan would be doomed to failure). Sun Tzu's principles can be applied to other battlefields as well, including economics - so in rendering himself ineffective in one area, Obama has undercut his authority in others.
Sun Tzu actually advocated treated captured enemies well. Their weapons replenish your stock, and some might switch sides.
and cooperation that German prisoners showed toward their American captors and teared up about it.
Since there was a doctor present we have to assume he died and was revived a couple of times.
Where's his two children 7 & 9? Were they covered with bugs to find their dad?
There's a copy of a torture tape somewhere. Does it show pool betting to see how long he could last?
How do we now water wasn't applied with a hose?
The final question is do we accept these deranged human beings that did this are still in the Presidents service, as this is clearly criminal, and no not looking into it will not remedy this unconstitutional action.
This is where the 911 lie leads now doesn't it.
If he didn't admit planing 911 we would have to look for the suspects still walking in freedom knowing what they got away with.
The architects of this debacle aren't really concerned with good intel or bad intel.
If Abu Zubaydah admits to ANYTHING, it can be used to justify the campaign of fear and necessity for surveillance. This is made clear by torture apologists clinging to the 'ticking time bomb' nonsense.
Why is everybody so convinced that OBL and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed had anything to do with 911?
With so many lies from the bush administration, I cant take their word on what happened or who was involved. Add torture and all of the confessions are now meaningless.
Zionist fear no one, not even their God.
183 times is an inhuman action. But they can close their eyes, vision that all they have before them is a "desert rat" and go on their merry tortutious ways.
Obama should tell AIPAC to take a hike. If they don't like it, take em' out.
183 times for the mastermind of 9/11? Wasn't enough, imo. It's not like we're talking about some random guy picked up in Iraq. In general, I have a major problem torturing people, especially without any kind of trial to determine guilt. But c'mon...self described master-mind? Are you guys telling me you wouldn't like to see Bin Laden worked on with a pair of pliers and a blow-torch?
ISP
I know you're not some type of arch criminal.
But if your so willing to torture people. Why don't you go first?
Just so we know it's safe.
what a ridiculous comment.
Remember when America stood for fairness and the rule of law?
I know. It's been a long while now since we were that country.
"Remember when America stood for fairness and the rule of law?
I know. It's been a long while now since we were that country."
I'd say...oh I dunno...a tad over 8 years...
digging up a corpse and burning it to a crisp might make a cool scene in a horror flick, but here in the real world it just sounds a little sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm8ZJGFi7i4
No I wouldn't. I cannot condone the "torture" of any human being or any creature. It's just not in me to do that.
I would like to see OBL tried, convicted, and punished...NOT tortured!
How will we ever know if he was the mastermind? Did he become so after being waterboarded so many times that he "confessed" to everything? We were told bin Laden was the mastermind. Well which is it?
BTW, if this "works" so well, how come it took so many times? This is "supposed" to be the fastest way to get intel in the "ticking time bomb" scenario. 183 times? To make it simple....If i have to wash my hands 183 times, my soap is not working.
Can you name which session he confessed to being self described mastermind 1 or 183?
To take a blowtorch to Bin Laden would be corpse abuse.
... is built upon evidence.
Fine, you believe KSM is the mastermind. You torture him. You get NOTHING. No actionable intelligence or accurate information. So, for a mastermind, the guy doesn't know a hell of a lot.
But the damage has been done - to your laws (meaningless), reputation (lies), and your authority among the international community (just another thug). You're not getting it back, and you sold it cheaply, quickly, and expediently because you were AFRAID.
Spoken like a true Somalian. Sorry, Bud, America is about laws and justice not fantasies of revenge.
for your National Socialist rally?
Red Head -- Your circular logic stuns. He is self-described as the "mastermind" (i.e., scapegoat) behind 9/11 BECAUSE he was tortured. Treating him well might have actually gotten some truth out of him, while torturing got him to say just what you wanted him to.
Also, at what point was bin Laden reformed into a demon, before or after he was on CIA payroll? (Don't really know if there even IS an "after"....)
That's exactly what we're telling you.
Comprende?
Are you a little too addicted to watching the SAW series?
Oh, I get it, you wanna be Jack Bauer.
GTFOH with your twisted mind.
I can't condone inhumane acts on friends or enemies. Torturing OBL would not make me "feel better" about what happened. I doubt that it would help in any way, shape or form. People will make up any shit to escape torture. I can only imagine the amount of misinformation that the US government has in its possession now because they tortured somebody to the point where they just blurted out anything to appease their torturers.
Mon, 04/20/2009 - 06:12 — chicano2nd
That was Americans that did the deed, regardless as to why we were there.
but at whose bidding? And who is powerful enough to stonewall U.S. efforts at investigating and prosecution?
cheney and haliburton?
more looking would elucidate the ties but got to go to work.
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/06...
I have said elsewhere..remember when President Bush turned up with the black eye and the raspberry on his cheek? It was an injury sustained while he was engaging in auto-erotic asphyxiation while watching torture videos.
The Crawford Caligula was in his heyday back then.
Now, like Tiny Tim, his little cod piece sits in the corner by the fireplace, unused.....sniff.
-G
and it wouldn't surprise me in the least. That's probably how dickie-boy gets his jollies too.
... that W. could barely peel his eyes off the volleyball players' bodies during the Beijing Olympics (and was sweatin' like a nervous bridegroom all the way through), he sure ain't paintin' the town red with Pickles.
It amazes me that one would compare the US OF A to those who behead our citizens as Charles Lemos over at MyDD did. If D Pearl was such a wonderful man as this Mr. Lemos suggest then it would stand to reason that the beheaders are far below the US on that one. I am so sick of the left and right party line fighting... It is time for the middle between the left and right wings retake control of the Government. Bush was wrong but so is Obama.
In your mind torturing some one to death isn't as bad as a quick ending of life. You can choose the death you'd take I guess, it's your business. But I'd take death by beheading over being tortured to death any day!
Who was torured to death??? Do you have info we do not or do you make it up as you go along???
21 May 2005 - Shocking and detailed accounts have emerged of how two Afghan prisoners were tortured to death by American interrogators and prison guards at Bagram air base, outside Kabul.
http://www.president-bush.com/criminal-regime...
February 11, 2009 - Newly declassified Defense Department documents describe a pattern of “abusive” behavior by U.S. military interrogators that appears to have caused the deaths of several suspected terrorists imprisoned at a detention center in Afghanistan in December 2002, just two days after former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld authorized the use of “enhanced interrogation” techniques against prisoners in that country.
http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004387
05/15/04 - Asad Abdul Kareem Abdul Jaleel died in US detention on January 9th of this year. However, there are grave doubts about the version that claims his death to have been from natural causes. An Iraqi forensic pathologist who took the body over from the US armed forces confirmed to Spiegel TV in Baghdad that he diagnosed definite torture marks on the body of the deceased. In addition, photos of the deceased confirm that contrary to the US documentation, an autopsy had been performed on the man. The scars on the torso indicate that Western doctors did the autopsy.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/arti...
Feb 12, 2009 - "Additionally, interrogations in both incidents involved the use of physical violence, including kicking, beating, and the use of "compliance blows" which involved striking the [prisoners] legs with the [interrogators] knees. In both cases, blunt force trauma to the legs was implicated in the deaths.
http://boards.history.com/topic/Operation-Ira...
December 2, 2005 - Military autopsy reports provide indisputable proof that detainees are being tortured to death while in US military custody.
http://www.counterpunch.org/phillips12022005....
10 March 2003 - New evidence has emerged that the US military has tortured to death at least two of the detainees held at its special interrogation centre at the Bagram Air Base, just north of the Afghan capital, Kabul.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/afg...
Mullah Habibullah, a 30-year-old Afghan from the southern province of Oruzgan, dies of complications related to “blunt force trauma” while in detention at the US base at Bagram.
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?ite...
All that is only the tip of an iceberg! I don't know why you hate the United States and our laws cowgirl but I find it disgusting.
Terrible
Senator Lindsay Graham: "The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."
Do some googling, cowgirl.
...for filling me in on something I so obviously did not know? Because I have had my ears plugged to the truth. Doing an 'adult' version of Lalalala I can't hear you, by watching FOX 'News' and believing those liars told me the truth. I apologise for being blind to the truth and coming to your site and blowing crap and abuse all over you strangers with my ultra judgmental ways"
mm mm mm. what kind of manners are they teaching on the ranch these days?
Of course not. Torture apologists don't want facts. If they sought facts, they wouldn't advocate torture as a method of information retrieval.
Cut off the head once, now drowning with a doctor near by to revive again and again.
Sorta like the Lazarus method.
I am just sayin, how can you compare the terrorist beheading and beating our nonmillatary citizens to what the CIA did. Not that either is right, but so distorted. When someone picks up arms against America and kills thousands of our NON MILLATARY citizen, they should expect us to come after them.
We try as a nation to be about justice
Not vengeance.
SO they can come here and kill us and we just look the other way?? Let them kill us off one at a time? Or in the case of 9/11 thousand at a time and us just let them??
Look, to take America, you have to cross an ocean. And then you have to take every city, every street in every village, every parish, from sea to shining sea, and then you have to get your ass back on a boat and take Alaska and Hawaii.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
Ever.
9/11 was a tragedy. We lost 3,000+ of our citizens in an open and undisputable act of aggression.
But you would have us forsake international and domestic law, throw our principles out the window, all just to get back at these people?
It's been 7.5 years since 9/11, and you're STILL angry, STILL afraid?
Get a grip.
"9/11 was a tragedy. We lost 3,000+ of our citizens in an open and undisputable act of aggression."
Act of aggression?
Ask dick. he was the main actor in that hollywood movie.
Co star. Rummy.
Producer ?
Director ?
I guess you didn't lose a family member? I'm not saying eye for an eye mentality is correct, but just to say it's over move on..very insensitive.
And your lame argument would only loosely hold up IF it were actually people who HAD had anything to do with 9/11 that the CIA ILLEGALLY tortured and in many cases tortured to death.
Again I'm not sure why you hate Americas laws and want us to become an anarchist terrorist nation but I find it not only disgusting but extremely perverted.
of your claim that no one was tortured to death already?
Deeply held, views, and backed up by lots of research, no?
Warped Texas attitudes like yours never went anywhere with the American people. You, my dear, are a foreigner. Not an American! Now go and put up your stupid Lonestar flag.
cowgirl: It's people like you that have made me come to loathe Amerikkka.
How many have you killed worldwide? Yet, you probably wave a flag and say Amerikkka is great.
Sickening.
(Don't confuse this with all of the American people. I mean AmericaInc.)
Where is it written that we get exclusive rights to the Whup Ass franchise?
It's distorted only because you're taking refuge in moral relativism. It's okay, because we were attacked. It's okay, because it's not as bad as beheading a guy. It's okay, because it only happened to one, two, three guys. It's okay because it only happened
a couple183 times to one prisoner inside of a month (six times a day?). It's okay, because we might get important information from it.It's moral quicksand.
So cowgirl, you should be expecting hundreds of thousands of Afghanis and Iraqis coming after us because the US of A has killed over an estimated million civilians according to Amnesty.
At first, it was just 'a few bad apples.' The abuses at Abu Ghraib weren't actual policy, it was soldiers going off the reservation.
It turned out that this was policy, a program of humiliation and degradation as a form of interrogation. It was sanctioned. That it took place in the prison where Saddam's secret police did even worse things was an irony ignored by the media.
Then came the waterboarding. And the revelation that we'd done it, we had memos written to cover our sorry asses, and that we'd taped the interrogations (tapes that have since been 'lost').
We cannot allow ourselves to take comfort in the 'at least we're not as bad as ...' game. That's as sure a road to damnation as anything in this world - you make one compromise, and it's not so bad, and it's not as bad as X, and so the next compromise is easier, but it's not so bad, and maybe it's closer to X, but it's not as bad as Y, and then, suddenly, X has come and gone, Y is your best buddy, and Z is looking more and more appealing.
Incidentally, as one of the senior editors at my station, I got the job of editing the Nick Berg beheading. Instead of taking refuge in moral relativism, you might want to consider that it was a deliberate act (sort of like waterboarding a guy 183 times) and recorded on tape. If anything, it assures me that the torture apologists in our country as just as reprehensible as the Islamic extremists they claim to be opposed to.
We still do not know the bottom of the pit of depravity that we have fallen into. If only we could hold on to the narrative threads that tell us one or two people were tortured to such a grotesque degree, but that isn't the half of it.
Why don't you re-read Seymour Hersh's articles from 2004-2006 and his Chain of Command. I think you will start to get a better picture of our brutality.
Do you think this has all stopped since Obama took office? Did he close down or scrutinize ALL CIA-run black sites? No, only Gitmo. And even there he wants full immunity to the torturers and policymakers and he is protecting state secrets just as Bush did. Can he state that this abuse does not and will not continue. Of course not. Don't kid yourself.
Terror is the United State's biggest export.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/257447208...
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images/bacchus3...
He's credited to be the first to say, "I love you maannn..."
to Bagram where they can commit their crimes in secrecy.
well anyone who believed the 911 commision reports a fool to begin with, it took over 14 months for them to force bush to investigate 911 and then he used resumlican toads to do it, then they come up with a totaly bogus 911 report that reads like the book wizzard of oz, of course they have to torture people supposedly for information , it wouldnt look right if we didnt do it, after all whos going to believe 19 terriorists did us in on 911 unless we blow smoke up the publics ass showing we mean buisness by tortureing and killing them dirty terriorists , jesus americans can be such zombie like douchbags!
My big beef with 911 is the supposed pilot of flight 77, who couldn't fly a single-engine training plane, doing loop-de-loops in top-gun fashion over the most heavily defended building on planet Earth without so much as a slingshot fired to defend it.
Are you going to believe the 911 commission report or your lying eyes?
.... each of them a gazillion times, but it was only three people.
*snark off*
I think they've only revealed the tip of the iceberg, we need have yet to see what's under the water.
Didn't Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "admit" to being the 911 mastermind as a result of being tortured so cannot be tried if the only evidence they have is a result of torture? As far as I know, there's no independent verification by any non-tortured individual that this is true.
I have to say that I'm extremely skeptical of their conclusion that he's the Big 911 Kahuna. In fact, I'm not just skeptical; I don't believe it.
Reports are that he is certifiably insane and cannot stand trial on that basis either.
What FOOLS torturers make of themselves, their government, and their country. We may never know who was responsible for 911 because he can't lawfully be tried under US rules -- we know it wasn't OBL either.
Human Rights First has a brief account of the case against him and four others who "confessed". All were held at Guantanamo, where the torture occurred.
that
tortureenhanced interrogation(opps! almost sounded like a DFH there) is a GREAT policy IF your objective is to get American soldiers killed and increase by millions the number of anti-American extremists.OMFG! I cannot believe there is a thread that even leans toward feeling sorry for this murderous { Edited}. What a bunch of delusional losers you all are who think the guy who planned 911 and helped kill thousands of our citizens deserves even an ounce of your concern. OMFG!!
{ Edited,SiteMonitor}
You are so right! If they come after us they should expect us to come right back at em. Many feel tho that it was our fault, they choose to kill our people on our own soil where they should have been safe.
......Many feel tho that it was our fault, they choose to kill our people on our own soil where they should have een safe......
Our "own" soil. Wow, arn't you just the cocky foreigner? What do YOU know about America? Get back to Texas and keep an eye on those cows.
I don't care about the comfort of that slime ball if he did what they say he did. Torture hurts US and our credibility. we're the good guys. if we're going to use the same techniques as the bad guys what's our beef with them?
we are not using the "same techniques" we do not behead or torture anyone to death
we broke the geneva conventions. we violated our own rules. we're better than that. or at least we are now.
One cab driver was manacled to the ceiling and died from it. He was just driving through the wrong area at the wrong time.
Additionally, many of our prisoners were only in our possession because warlords turned people in for our bounties, whether they were suspected of anything or not. They weren't necessarily listed on the most wanted lists.
Otherwise, when boosh cleared out hundreds of prisoners from Abu Ghraib, couldn't we accuse him of having released terrorists in our midsts?
is the film about this crime.
I guess to you we've fucked things up these eight plus years, so it won't hurt to fuck up some more. Thank God you dumbasses lost.
Yeah it was some pixy who snuck into the prison in the middle of the night who killed those people by torture!
..they beheaded first and that makes torture OK, defence?
Good, hang onto that!
... haven't answered me regarding the dangers of moral relatavism.
For that matter, you seem to be confusing 'not torturing' with 'sympathy for the terrorists,' which is incorrect. I simply want the prisoners to have the same benefits of law and treatment that I would want were I in their place.
torture people to death, see the links above as provided.
There have been more than a few cases of detainees, uncharged of any crime, who have ended up dead in US custody. Those same detainees were forced into a program of abuse and torture similar to the one described here.
If you cut off somebody's head with a knife, that is barbaric.
But is it not just as barbaric to dismember an entire family while they are sleeping? That is what the US has done time and time again!
Gee, do they hate us for our freedomz? I rather think it's the policy of violence that the United States perpetuates outside of its borders.
has given ANY indication that they "feel sorry" for this man!!! They have ALL made clear that they feel disgust for those who believe that laws aren't worth having. YOU are no different then KSM when you call for illegal actions!!!
is for the United States of America. And it's obvious YOU don't share that concern in the least!
..but the U.S. is not supposed to torture the same way you're not supposed to kill your neighbor or molest children or anything else that is supposed to be illegal in this country. WE DON'T TORTURE! That's supposed to be written in STONE but apparently no one understands that; at least no one in power. I mean, we or many of us do. I can read! I can listen! I was alive for the Nuremburg trials. The U.S. does not torture. It produces no credible information and only leads to more torture which is unproductive.
On Star Trek: Enterprise, an episode has a freighter captain beating the crap out of a captive for "codes". The captain gets the codes and then is surprised and aghast that they were wrong. How realistic is that?
Yeah,, my concern is that Shrub will skate again, just like he has his whole empty, miserable life instead of swinging from a gallows.
How's that for concern?
With all of that torture, did he in any fashion describe how he brought down tower 7? I think this guy admitted to killing Mother Teresa after the first dozen times of forced drowning.
If there is a textbook case to underscore the questionable information gained from torture, this is it!
But go ahead and believe that anything justifies torture. Perhaps you live in a cartoon world where a ticking time bomb can be diffused if only more pain and suffering were inflicted. Sorry, but I don't watch FOXNEWS much.
i think anyone would confess to masterminding 9/11 after being waterboarded 183 times.
Many of the torturers probably live in and around the Austin subburbs, which would have involved them having to drive the miserable 183 two-lane highway to get to work every day.
I would confess after the first time. I have no SEAR training, or whatever it is called. My goal would be to last twice as long as Christopher Hitchens, which would be ten seconds.
were we suppose to get the intel? Put him in the naughty chair?
I think the only real problem is that the government released this information at all. This should have been classified information not pervy to anyone outside the military. Skin the bastard alive for all I care, just keep it top secret. We are talking about the guy that planned the highjacking of planes to use as weapons to murder thousands of American's. This should not even be a topic of discussion.
ask the military if torture works. they'll tell you absolutely not. it's cowboys like you that get all their experience from "24" who are the only ones that think it works.
If they had been shot in combat instead of being captured this would not be a topic, but they wanted the intel and look where we are now
republicans replaced with Democrats?
As long as this is a left vs right war of words we get no where. I was against Bush and Iraq too. we are at a place where the left is kinder to the terrorist than they are to their own countrymen. It shouldn't be about wheither or not they have a D or a R after their name. The party line fight is stupid. Are we not all AMERICIANS first? We have broken down to Left America and Right America.
It is Right and legal vs Wrong and illegal!
And saying "we are at a place where the left is kinder to the terrorist than they are to their own countrymen." is one of the most assinine, stupid and flat out incorrect things you've posted here yet.
and the name calling continues. Anyone who does not agree with your views are assinine and stupid. Kids on a play ground. Now stick your fingers in your ears and say NANA I can't hear you
for waterboarding or any other kind of torture, and get back to the real world with the results cowgirl. I got $100 that says you would even admit to being the killer of OJ's wife to get it to stop. People truly are stupid.
Why yes we agree on that people are so stupid
as you are doing is assinine and stupid, yes.
I do not support crimes againt the US you are mistaken.
that you support torture. Not only is that a CRIME against the United States under US law it is one of the WORST crimes carrying one of the HARSHEST sentences!!!
Go back and look again, find once I said I support torture, not once. I just said comparing us to those who behead innocent people is ludicris
When you two procreate, hopefully the authorities will arrest you two and offspring for the planned destruction of America.
You sound like more cow than girl.
I think maybe cowshit?
YOU are absolutely no different then the terrorists since you are perfectly comfortable with getting American soldiers killed and increasing anti-American extremism.
Why is the left so childish??? you continue to prove my point about name calling... I support the troops.They are my family and friends. the Anti American extremism has been going on for years even when we do everything possible to help be cause we are not Musslim, not because we are Americans.
People who support the troops do NOT support getting them killed by support the committing of crimes against the United States! You know why I know that? Because unlike your anti-American ass I'm a veteran of the United States army and I was TRAINED to kill people who engage in torture WHATEVER their nationality!!! BECAUSE IT KILLS AMERICANS!!! And is ILLEGAL! You're so anti-American and hateful towards US troops it is sickening!
you know nothing about me, I too served. Name calling gets us no where.
The government says this is an evil man, and so he must be, because the government doesn't lie.
I am slightly ruffled however, that you support the idea of your fellow Americans being tortured. Not many have that belief. You see in the real world, if one nation tortures, all can. That is why they have these little signed agreements. But, if you'd like to go torture everyone that the government says is evil, all the power to you. Just don't be surprised if/when it happens to you.
...it was prison time. It is frightening that someone like you represented us abroad.
but the only people i tortured were sleezy, slimey polliwogs and that turned them into manly shellbacks!
Of course y'all know I served in the Air Force
But not abroad.
The broads wouldn't have me.
And it's a damn shame that IF you really served you FAILED to take to heart US military law. Both the UCMJ and FM 27-10 EXPLICETLY PROHIBITE TORTURE! And WHY do they prohibit torture? Because it is a crime against US law AND gets US soldiers KILLED!
People tell me I'm crazy, but I swear we had one class in Basic Training on how to arrest an enemy officer.
You essentially had to report to him. But if he refused to come along, or attacks, you could kill him.
if you can't even spell Muslim, we have a hard time taking your pearls of wisdom seriously.
Why are you bringing the troops up? Right wing knee jerk reaction? We all support the troops. We would like to see them have less enemy to fight. Torturing people, innocent or not, only gives the enemy a great recruiting tool, it doesn't give us any information that can be believed.
You are a fool. Go back to the pasture and rot.
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