Obama on This Week: Insurance Mandate Is Not A Tax Increase
I don't know that it matters how cleverly the president sidestepped George Stephanopoulos on this question: People are still going to view it as a tax increase, and they're angry about it:
STEPHANOPOULOS: You were against the individual mandate...
OBAMA: Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: ...during the campaign. Under this mandate, the government is forcing people to spend money, fining you if you don’t. How is that not a tax?
OBAMA: Well, hold on a second, George. Here -- here's what's happening. You and I are both paying $900, on average -- our families -- in higher premiums because of uncompensated care. Now what I've said is that if you can't afford health insurance, you certainly shouldn't be punished for that. That's just piling on. If, on the other hand, we're giving tax credits, we've set up an exchange, you are now part of a big pool, we've driven down the costs, we've done everything we can and you actually can afford health insurance, but you've just decided, you know what, I want to take my chances. And then you get hit by a bus and you and I have to pay for the emergency room care, that's...
STEPHANOPOULOS: That may be, but it's still a tax increase.
OBAMA: No. That's not true, George. The -- for us to say that you've got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase. What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore than the fact that right now everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase. People say to themselves, that is a fair way to make sure that if you hit my car, that I'm not covering all the costs.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But it may be fair, it may be good public policy...
OBAMA: No, but -- but, George, you -- you can't just make up that language and decide that that's called a tax increase. Any...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Here’s the...
OBAMA: What -- what -- if I -- if I say that right now your premiums are going to be going up by 5 or 8 or 10 percent next year and you say well, that's not a tax increase; but, on the other hand, if I say that I don't want to have to pay for you not carrying coverage even after I give you tax credits that make it affordable, then...
STEPHANOPOULOS: I -- I don't think I'm making it up. Merriam Webster's Dictionary: Tax -- "a charge, usually of money, imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes."
OBAMA: George, the fact that you looked up Merriam's Dictionary, the definition of tax increase, indicates to me that you're stretching a little bit right now. Otherwise, you wouldn't have gone to the dictionary to check on the definition. I mean what...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, no, but...
OBAMA: ...what you're saying is...
STEPHANOPOULOS: I wanted to check for myself. But your critics say it is a tax increase.
OBAMA: My critics say everything is a tax increase. My critics say that I'm taking over every sector of the economy. You know that. Look, we can have a legitimate debate about whether or not we're going to have an individual mandate or not, but...
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you reject that it’s a tax increase?
OBAMA: I absolutely reject that notion.
Conservatives are always against mandates
They think it sounds homoerotic.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
this is why the extreme right wing republican party can afford to be arrogant , deceitful , lying and attack Obama and the democrats with no remorse.. They have a republicans running on the democratic ticket so it is a win , win not matter how the election turns out...
The problem with the democrat party being a republican party now Emanuel...
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2009/01/r...
Leibovich professes shock and awe that Emanuel "has been an ardent ambassador to Republicans, including Mr. Obama’s defeated rival, Senator John McCain of Arizona." Why? Yes, Emanuel has long been a "fierce partisan," as is always pointed out, but not especially on behalf of Democratic Party values or principles. Emanuel's always been a vicious little gut fighter who likes to win-- regardless of what the game is or how the teams are divided. As for reaching out to Republicans... Emanuel was wrongly credited with the Democratic midterm landslide of 2006, when he was chair of the DCCC. By using DCCC financial clout as a club he was able to "persuade" countless grassroots, anti-war progressives to either drop out of contested primaries or to "moderate" their views, especially the anti-Iraq war views. (Emanuel is and has always been a die-hard Iraq War supporter and, basically, and American Likudnik.) I may blame him for the defeats of progressive candidates like Lois Murphy, Christine Cegelis, Dave Lutrin, Steve Porter, Charlie Brown, Larry Kissell, Diane Benson, Angie Paccione, Ellen Simon but there are two candidates even I give him total credit for: Tim Mahoney and Heath Shuler. Both are Republicans.
****
But in fact any democrat like Lamont against Lieberman in the election of 2008, if they are not for Israel and the war for them they are purge from the field of democrats to be elected by the democratic majority..
Just ask any AIPAC member.
None
Y'all notice how he's wearing a flag pin on his lapel?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... in case people out there don't know where he is from. You just can't have enough flags these days.
We the democratic voters ,, better start looking for candidates to run against these republican-democrats ,, like the blue dogs in their reelection bid coming up in 2010 and 2012...
None
Since I have health insurance, it's not a tax on me. Of course, the "mandate" could be paid for by increased Medicare taxes, as part of a Medicare for All scheme, but the President rejected that. So, people without insurance will be forced to buy it, and that is a tax.
It doesn't help that the Congress and the President chose to prioritize preserving corporate profits in this health "reform" effort, because now, the tax is going to be 50% higher than if we copied a European or Canadian system. It's going to be a real boon for insurance companies, who couldn't have done better if they had written the legislation themselves. Fact is, through their lobbyists, they did write the legislation.
The insurance company could not get as this many Americans to buy a health insurance policy in over 50 years and Emanuel is handing this increase in one swipe of the pen...
If they force 10 million of the 47 million uninsured to buy a policy , that would be 40 trillion dollars at $4,000 dollars a policy.. Just thing of the new income in policies for the health empires if 20 million or 30 million new Americans are forced to buy a health policy...
No wonder the health insurance is paying 10's of million dollars to Baucus and other democrats/republicans to create this force insurance on Americans..
Just think you can never tell these health insurance company to go to h... you are not paying their outrageous price for a policy , because the Government would fine you and give it to the insurance company..
Then we have the deal that was said to have been made where the government would not let the agencies to bargain for drug prices... My prescriptions have double just this year along....
Then you have the fact that they are going to cut funds from Medicare of $500 million dollars in 10 years..
Now remind you the price increases are going up at 10 to 20 percent a year and prescription drugs costs are up to 100 percent increases on certain drugs...
The insurance health companies will not lose a penny and get their 30 plus percent profits , and there will be added income by the new policies they will get...
When in the h... is Obama going to create new jobs FOR Americans and tax or place tariffs on the imports from these (use to be) American companies which now have when in partnership with foreign countries for cheap labor , paying no taxes to our country and giving no benefits to American workers.
With the actions of Emanuel . he is turning the democratic party into a conservative republican democrat party..without the real meaning of democrat anymore.
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2009/01/r...
None
Isn't that what the wingers say?
They're always ready to sacrifice other peoples' kids for wars that benefit corporations.
I have no problem paying taxes for services as long as it isn't a profit scheme for insurance corporations.
But the Republicans should love it, since it is a privatized tax increase.... When will we ever have a Democratic Democrat President?
President Obama calls $900 for a family a "higher premium"? I currently pay $902 for myself (single, self-employed) and I'm sure that will go up again in February.
Maybe he's a little out of touch.
Self employed always pay more than wage slaves.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
He's saying on average we pay $900 a year extra each to cover the uninsured.
10 percent of enrolled workers, about 2 million, had a family plan that cost $17,000 or more annually. The average annual premium for family plans in 2008 was $12,298.
-- The portion of family plan premiums paid by the employee for one in 10 workers nationwide was $6,700 or more, compared with the national average of $3,394.
-- However, 10 percent of workers in Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Washington spent at least $8,100 to get family coverage.
-- Some 3.1 million workers nationwide with single-coverage were in plans with annual premiums totaling $6,200 or more, or at least 41 percent higher than the national average of $4,386.
-- For workers who were enrolled in single-coverage plans, one in 10 paid at least $1,900 more than double the national average of $882
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/1630...
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all
They could just call it "user fees" and not tax increases. That has been the Canadian political way since Jean Chretien. Not tax increases but increases in user fees. Then nobody gets mad because people are dense.
Obama's can try to spin it any way he wants, but when the Feds come around to threaten you with jail for not buying HI (at the insurance companies' profit, to boot), you'll know and they'll know what it is. People will not be happy about this at all.
If mandatory health care gets passed Dems will lose seats in '10 and possibly the WH in '12.
Don't you think that this has been the plan all along? I don't put anything past them.
that's the price of passing health care reform.
Yeah, so the Republicans and their corporate bosses can dismantle the whole damned thing once they're back in the driver's seat.
for tomorrow nights hour long show with President Obama.
I sent Dave the interview between Amy Goodman and Dr. Stephie Woolhandler of PNHP regarding 45,000 Americans dying every year due to not having health insurance.
I suggested he ask President Obama the same question Rep. Anthony Weiner asked Joe Scarborough: "What exactly do the for-profit health insurance corporations do to add to the health care equation in this country anyhow? They don't take a blood pressure, remove an appendix, suture a wound, put a cast on a leg. WHY DO WE NEED THEM INVOLVED AT ALL CONSIDERING WE COULD SAVE ABOUT $400 BILLION A YEAR BY GETTING RID OF THEIR "SERVICES"????
Please go to the CBS Comment section and send a comment to Dave for tomorrow nights hour long interview with President Obama. Here's the link:
http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_glob...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
...to "decide" whether or not (I) can "afford" health care?
I'm the only one who decides if I can "afford" it or not!
I suppose someone in the IRS will decide...
What if the American people decided we can't afford Iraq, Afghanistan, and the bankster bailouts anymore?
audit-prosecute-incarcerate
in another time and place (far, far away.....), Dems would have started with Single Payer, stuck to it, said FU to Republicans, and transformed health care in the U.S. and begun an era of Dem rule for decades.
Oh well.......nevermind.
They should have started with full national health and stayed there, no one but me seems to be saying that.
FULL NATIONAL HEALTH!
Remove the profit motive from health care.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
.
Bill Moyer's has been on for some time talking about removing Wall Street.
And I know both Evet and myself have been pushing single-payer (as well as others), because in my case that's pretty much what I have under the VA system.
Funny thing though, the VA system passes on some of my bills to the insurers my job provides, but then eats much of the rest. I only pay the co-pays.
I will, however, support a strong public option.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Single payer is a la Canada.
Full national health is a la England.
They are not the same, I think the latter is better.
But either would be way better than mandate for-profit health insurance.
The VA would be (limited) national health were it not for privatization even there.
The corporatists have privatized more and more.
Moyers has only talked about single payer, no one to my knowledge has advocated national health.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I'm with you.
FULL NATIONAL HEALTH CARE!
Remove the profit motive from health care.
(P.S. I think we may need to cut the nose off the Pentagon in order to meet our objective.)
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I'm with you.
FULL NATIONAL HEALTH CARE!
Remove the profit motive from health care.
(P.S. I think we may need to cut the nose off the Pentagon in order to meet our objective.)
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
It's not literally a tax increase, he's right but the lower classes he will charge or fine would have to pay. A tax increase on the upper 5% would be a better way to provide health insurance to those that don't have it. Would he veto a final bill with no mandate, if he did it would cost him politically. People can see your corporate tendencies President Obama, they are pretty clear.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
Car insurance is a tax? A hunting license is a tax? Camping fees are taxes? Tuition is a tax?
I see no problem with mandating health insurance for all as long as there is a public option. Even healthy young people get sick or have accidents. And, even if it is a tax, so what? I'd happily pay more in taxes to reduce my out of pocket health costs and knowing that I'd never go broke because of medical costs.
Lots of luck reducing costs when there is profit to made and mandated.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
if there is a public option.
cars, hunting, camping, and even higher education are "optional" items.
It is not a question of IF you are going to get sick, but WHEN, ergo we should scrap the whole hedge approach that we have to provide/finance healthcare in this place. We should try to get into our heads that we can't apply the same models that work for the above items to health care. Period.
...that insurance was the second legalized form of gambling in the USA. Stocks were the first.
Tax credits don't mean shit to people who don't have the fucking money to begin with. With a mandate, working people are going to be forced to buy insurance they can't afford, with money they don't have, so that at the end of the year they can take a deduction on their taxes and MAYBE get some of that money back. This is bullshit! People are struggling to keep food on the table, pay their rent or mortgages,and pay their other insurance premiums (home, car, etc) NOW. I personally think that President Obama should stay away from the auto insurance analogy. Auto insurance premiums get jacked up every year whether you file a claim or not, and since it's mandatory, you better fucking come up with the money to pay those premiums or you can't drive your car.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
Can you imagine healthcare being ran the same way? Pay your premiums or you get absolutely no healthcare at all. I can't believe this entire scenario is playing out like this at all. The richest nation on the globe's politicians, hearing the screams of their electorate, and giving them the finger. Nice. They all live in a different reality I guess.
It's not just "pay your premiums or you get absolutely no healthcare at all".
It's also, "Just pay the FINE (which is the only thing MANY will be able to afford) and get absolutely no healthcare at all."
Think about it. Millions of Americans will opt for the FINE/PENALTY that will go directly to the IRS/U.S. Treasury and those fines will be parlayed into more troops/C.I.A. in Afghanistan:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world...
etc., etc., etc.....
You get the idea....
Pretty rotten, eh?
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
They may do it like Massachusetts. Mass pays all of it if your at or below the poverty level, and will assist unless the recipient is over 300% of the poverty level.
https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site...
In the case of the Federal Reform, the devil is in the details, the cutoff points and so forth.
The auto insurance analogy is somewhat dubious, because one is only required to carry insurance to cover the other car or driver, with the exception of some low cost un/underinsured provisions.
I suppose the other way to go is to simply not treat the uninsured, although I sure would not want to be the unlucky one who wasn't carrying his insurance card at the time medical treatment was needed.
The problem with premiums based on the poverty level is that those numbers are based on a family of 4. If you're single, or married with no kids, you're shit out of luck.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
http://www.massresources.org/pages.cfm?conten...
Nice thing about Mass, at least right now, is that they're only checking income, not assets. (It's *not* Medicaid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkbGF27JyY
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I happen to be "staying" in Pittsfield, Massachusetts right now and according to many meetings I have been to there are LOTS of folks who are being told by "the Connector" that they can "afford" so much for premiums but they find they cannot.
So they are telling me that they opt to pay the fine, which they CAN afford and then they simply go without insurance.
Go to www.masshealthlawtruth.org and read the website. Read the articles by Trudy Lieberman.
The Mass Plan is NOT a success.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I guess they'll have to junk it then. I hear it's bankrupting the state anyway.
Anyway, from what I hear, the Federal help in purchasing insurance will be less generous.
Tax credits are just smoke and illusion. In other words, we'll have to fork over money we don't have on the promise that the government will take a percentage of it off our taxes. What would you bet that our tax rates won't change much?
You can drive your car in many states without a license or insurance. Thousands do it, and more do it every week as they are forced to drop their coverage because they're unemployed. If they do get caught, the penalty is minimum, probably less than the insurance premiums they skipped. I absolutely agree with you on the rest. Tax credits are for wonk pussies like Obama.
But if you got sick, couldn't you just go to the vet?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
George Stephanopolis is LYING -
I just looked up the phrase "tax increase" in Merriam-Webster's on-line search.
Here's the result.
tax increase
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.
George Stephanopolis is a lying pos.
try looking up "tax"
Why doesn't Stehpee just go on over to Cluster-Fox..He continues to portray himself in their mold...He is good at "Gotcha" interviews and works very hard to do it..anything to especially catch the president..Going to look something up in a dictionary to "check myself" is COMPLETE bull.... he clearly wanted to make sure he could stand on solid footing with his questions and he STILL screwed it up..What a loser..he'll fit right in with Chris Wallace and Ailes...
There better be some kind of public option in place to go along with this insurance mandate. Hell, the idea of an insurance mandate boils my blood even with a public option. I could almost feel him trying to reach out to Republicans by saying that no-one should be carried by the system, but that's not going to fly because no Republican is going to support him anyway! Rather than stick with his left and left-of-center buddies, he's forsaking the left in an attempt to appeal to the right, who have absolutely no interest in playing ball.
This whole mandate thing is a terrible idea, and I hope it gets shot down. The public option removes the need for a mandate almost entirely, and if people decide to not get any coverage at all that's their choice.
If the government wants to mandate insurance coverage, then the government should provide it.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
And that is why, at the very minimum, there must be a public option!
I still think the rabble rousers in the House will casue a ruckus and get the public option in the final bill.....or there will be no bill!
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
We have all already paid for our health care from cradle to grave.
We're just not getting it.
"Our representatives" have decided to TAKE our MONEY and give it to The Pentagon for death/destruction/injury/depleted uranium, war crimes etc. instead of taking care of our lives, liberty and pursuits of happiness.
We have already paid for quality health care.
Now we just have to DEMAND getting it and DEMAND that the Pentagon get cut back to where it belongs....give them just enough money to protect our country. Hopefully they'll do a better job of protecting "the Home Land" than they did on 9/11/01.
And hopefully they'll stop interfering in the business of other countries so the American People and our sons and daughters don't get tripped up in the messy problem The Pentagon has created for us. It's called "Blowback".
1.) Our taxes for health care, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
2.) Or our taxes for worldwide death, destruction, injury, hate, mayhem and all the rest?
I'll number 1.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
"This whole mandate thing is a terrible idea, and I hope it gets shot down. The public option removes the need for a mandate almost entirely, and if people decide to not get any coverage at all that's their choice."
There is a mandate on hospitals to treat emergency cases, so I guess that mandate also needs to be removed?
Maybe the middle road is a mandate on accident insurance, and the person is on their own if they become ill.
I've got no problem with hospitals treating emergencies, I'm opposed to a private health insurance mandate. It's a terrible idea to force people into buying insurance that will probably fall apart when they need it most. People hate being forced into anything, let alone something they know is poison, and I could see him losing votes because of it.
We know that insurance companies aren't going to keep costs down, that's why there's a public option. If he kills the public option but keeps insurance mandate alive, he's shooting himself in the foot politically, not to mention all the people who are now slightly poorer because of it.
and health insurance is that driving for most is a choice. Many that would claim it to be a necessity would be those who ignore that the distances they have between work and home are based on personal choice.
Health care IS a necessity. Driving a car-not.
me-oww!
Correct...
... It would be ridiculous for me to even think about carrying auto insurance if I don't own an auto.
But I do own my life... LIBERTY!
And I do not like people profiting from my Liberty.
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Feed Americans.
Ass,grass,or tax, nobody rides for free. Don't want a mandate? Fine, raise everyone's taxes based on income. Healthcare costs money. What we need to do is put competition into the picture, and the only way to do that is with a public option making the private insurance companies have to provide better coverage at lower costs. The taxes or mandated premiums would help cover the cost of the government insurance operation.
Or we could just stop spending so much of our resources on defense and start investing in the future of this country by sinking it into education and health care. In the choice between guns and butter, butter always loses.
Obama is using the right as a cover to sell out to big pharma & insurance, who have made sure his campaign coffers are filled to perpetuity. Obama is above all else obsessed with his image and in "being the president", and if that means turning his back on the people who elected him, acting as a Republican and scr*wing the American people, so be it.
and it seems accurate, given the info available, this is EXACTLY the kind of trap Bush fell into-image preservation.
The only way for our president to leave a lasting positive legacy AND an impeccable image is to get his fellow Americans universal healthcare which in no way involves private insurers.
me-oww!
There is too much resistance to single payer at this time. I think public option is the only realistic possibility. I don't think from what I've seen that Obama is a sell out or only worried about his image. Why on earth would he even try to change anything if either were true? His numbers aren't exactly skyrocketing.
only from the fascist in govt and the corporations.
It is what most people want. The media won't promote that fact.
me-oww!
Corporations look out for one another in this plutocracy.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
which as you say was a realistic possibility and most certainly could have been won - if he wanted it. He only throws the words "public option" out a few times in his speeches to placate those who voted for him based on the mistaken belief he would serve their interests over the corporations. He has never lifted a finger to fight for the public option, and in fact, behind the scenes has been actively working to kill it. He is in fact the one most responsible for the Baucus bill, which was written by the health insurance lobby.
See Slate's A lot of the Anger at Max Baucus Should be Directed at President Obama.
if "Senate Democratic aides" are saying it, it must be true.
sarc/off
That is the point.
"Why on earth would he even try to change anything if either were true? His numbers aren't exactly skyrocketing."
Real change involves risk and means taking on the powerful and entrenched money interests, not kissing up to them and sticking the burden on the middle-class and powerless. It means being true to your word and following up on the promise you made to those who voted you into office that you would work for them, not the elite moneyed class. It means not saying one thing in public to appease those who voted for you, then doing the complete opposite in secret with the power elite to ensure "something passes" regardless of its merits and that clearly does not serve the public good. It means understanding the "numbers the aren't exactly skyrocketing" and the booing when he mentions "Baucus's plan" is directed at him and his betrayal of the people who put him in office. It means not being two-faced. It means reading the signs of the times, when the American people are finally get what is happening in Washington and are becoming fed up with the politicans selling them out to corporations.
The financial and insurance sector was Obama's largest corporate campaign donors. Consequently the "too big to fail" corporation has become bigger, Goldman Sachs runs the economy, and between the AIG bailout and this health reform, it's clear he's kept his word to his insurance corporation donors.
If they offer a reasonably priced public option with guaranteed acceptance, no rescission, and good basic coverage, there will be no reason for a mandate.
You know what? call it a freaking tax, i dont care. Its irresponsible to ask me to pay for your lack of personal responsibility...I'm sick of all this damn dancing around. Call it what it is and get this reform done already.
It's an expense but not a tax.
And the republicans don't oppose taxes, they seem to favor VAT as well as POS taxes.
And we're already paying for the health care of those who don't buy insurance through increased premiums and reduced dividends, as well as local taxes for emergency rooms.
Very few people ride nekkid, except for those who realize they're paying an awful lot on the chance they might get sick in premiums, co-pays and deductibles, and then likely to be cancelled after the make a claim.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Force people to purchase health insurance, or pay fines. And it is taking this long to enact this? Wasn't this the same healthcare reform Hillary talked about in her Presidential bid and was attacked for it?
"Millions have no insurance"
"OK, buy insurance policies or face stiff fines"
Done. Wow so much reform!
before I'd pay the fine.
Lucky for me, not having health insurance at the same time I had cancer has left me disabled, so I'm already on Medicare.
It's really sick I thank my lucky stars for being disabled, and having gotten there before the clusterfuck of newly unemployed, uninsured hit the system.
me-oww!
Should leave almost anyone speechless in a first world nation to hear/read stories like yours.
fucked up. Really. Fuck off w/ a mandate on The People to pay for insurance, Mr President.
It's a heinous idea to force private citizens to pay private entities for services that should be given us, as a matter of human rights.
The notion laws should be passed ordering hard working people to pay for profit corporations for health care is fascistic.
me-oww!
Health care in many parts of the world is a right, not a privilege. Making people buy into a corrupt, draconian system will not only make them poorer, but it will make Obama (and all Democrats by extension) look terrible during the 2010 and 2012 elections.
If there's an insurance mandate in the final bill, it better be for a public option that citizens can actively shape through legislation and debate. And even then I'm still pissed that there has to be a mandate at all. If I had any say in the whole thing, single-payer would have been at the top of the list.
US, where the almighty dollar still prevails to an excessive degree in every aspect of policy making and public life. Only in developing, 3rd world countries and banana republics does one's wealth determines whether one lives or dies from illness or injury. To all appearances - bought-off ruling class, great and growing disparity between the very wealthy and everyone else, merging of corporations and government - we are devolving into the latter.
Has anyone wondered if medical insurance cost would even be an issue if our wages haven't been stagnant for 20 years (and then some)?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Part of the reason wages have been stagnant is because employers have to put more and more money into the health benefits. If they pay out another 5% of your wage into your benefits, you don't get the wage increase you might have otherwise.
And part of the reason employers have been putting more and more into medical insurance is the death of unions, they're speculating on Wall Street medical corporations stocks, and the existing system putting the burden on them instead of a proper government program.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Stephanopoulos, whose father is a Greek Orthodox priest (former Dean of the Holy Trinity Cathedral in New York), had long considered entering the priesthood himself.
In 1995, Stephanopoulos was arrested, being charged with leaving the scene of an accident and driving with an expired license and license plates in Georgetown, Washington, D.C.
His 1999 memoir, entitled All Too Human: A Political Education, was published after he left the White House during Clinton's second term. It quickly became a #1 New York Times best seller. In his book, Stephanopoulos spoke of his depression and how his face broke out into hives due to the pressures of conveying the Clinton White House message. Bill Clinton referred to the book in his autobiography, My Life, apologizing for what he felt in retrospect to be excessive demands placed on the young staffer.
Nice try George √
Study the symptoms not the virus...
.
Thank goodness for competition...
... A classic we would never had seen otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeK5ZjtpO-M
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Feed Americans.
...for their medical care, we could get a tax credit with proof of insurance.
Kinda like un-insured motorist insurance, we could have un-insured refusal-ist insurance as denoted by our participation in the health insurance scheme.
Just a crazy thought...
What do we do with usurper(s)... let them die? A good faith effort is all I'd like to see... to obtain insurance that is. And I use the term "faith" sparingly. :)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Or at least a Little Orphan Annie Decoder Ring.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
What about about the people who are getting by, who can't afford a health insurance premium, but also don't quite fit under the poverty rules? From a financial standpoint, if the fine is less than the cost of the insurance, the only thing they can do is take the fine...which then reduces their financial standing even further.
The mandate, especially without the public option, is a cluster fuck.
This is how you try to get blood out of turnips. Force people to buy something they already can't afford and slapping fines on them if they don't comply. Hearing this man say, "What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore..." sickens me to the pit of my gut. What happened to the compassion? He's using the same rhetoric the insurance industry uses, talking about people who choose to be uninsured and "take their chances". I don't know people like that, do you? What happened to his fantasy that most people in this country receive health insurance through their employers? Funny, in my world, employers have been eliminating and decreasing coverage for some time now. A lot of people are given part-time work schedules just so the company doesn't have to insure them. I think the CEO has been whispering a lot of sweet nothings into the President's ear.
Bush sold America to the oil companies. It looks like Obama is selling us to the insurance companies. Damn him for getting our hopes up and letting us think that this country could be better.
You need to say
"My plan is a TAX DECREASE.
1
We're going to stop forcing most of you folks who have insurance to pay for other people's uninsured care in emergency rooms with your premiums. This REDUCES your current hidden tax which is taken out of your premium dollar to support the uninsured.
2
And then we're going to make sure that people who don't have insurance buy CHEAPER insurance than they can buy today, so that's more then they spend today, but cheaper than they WOULD spend today. So we've reduced their cost for doing the right thing and insuring themselves.
3
Finally, because everybody will buy insurance, the cost will be LOWER for everyone (more buyers, and better organized buyers), both those who have today and those who will be required to buy."
Then when the follow up comes and Stephonopolus says,
"you are mandating an increase in TAXES for the uninsured,"
you Barack say,
"no George, again, we are giving them a COST BREAK to make it cheaper for them to do the right thing than it is today, and we're ending the excuses for the uninsured to impose THEIR health care costs on those of us who have health insurance. We're not going to let insurance companies gouge Americans on prices and we're not going to accept excuses for not taking personal responsibility for your own health care. We believe that people want to take responsibility and it is government's job to ensure that the market provides products that ENABLE them to take responsibility. We're all about personal responsibility and helping people pay less, not more, for health care."
---
Anyway, Barack, if you are planning to keep going with this President stuff, please do a better job of selling your ideas. If you need help, I'm available for hire.
7500.+ deductible a year.
None of us know what the cost will be. But "if" all you had to pay was....say.... half of that, would you be happy with that? To have full coverage?
What I want to see is Dental and Vision added into this.
To be honest, I'd be ok with a mandated cost, as long as it's affordable. Lets not forget the subsides that can and will help people who don't have the money.
These things are all still in negotiations. I understand the anger and the frustration because we still don't have a full understanding of what is going on. But that's OK. Now is the time to drive it home .
To get all these things ironed out.
I won't have a problem with a mandate as long as it's affordable for the masses.
I had this discussion with savannah a short while ago.
She raised some viable points. As does miss_kitty.
But I have to ask,( I'm going to abbreviate my conversation with savannah)
If there are 170 million people working and contributing to this so called mandated healthcare. At ..Lets just say, 100 bucks a month,
do you think that total would be enough to cover all of this?
Say 200 bucks a month? Say 50 bucks a month?
Do you guys think that would be enough? Anyone one of those figures ?
I tried to do the muliplications, but I got lost.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
And it's awesome. Morgan, Garys Vineyard.Pinot Noir Santa Lucia Highlands. Monterey Co. 2006. I'm waitin for the 2007 to be released. So far, everything else I've tasted from 2007 is incredible.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Your gonna pay one way or the other.
I'd be ok with this. And I have the VA. But I'd still pay it. As long as it's affordable for the masses. Because I think it'd be worth it.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
n/t
It all boils down to how much. And we don't know that yet.
I wish someone would tell us.
Did ya ty to do the multiplications?
whoooooooooooooo boy. That there is a number.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
A lot of vets have to travel ages, just for a blood test, EKG and xray. If we were all covered, they wouldn't have to do that.
me-oww!
We have a clinic here. But if I have to go up there, they supply the ride. fringe benefit.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Because people would be able to use the local hospitals.
That took some doin. The wine.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Leave at 2:50 AM for an appt at 0900. Not home til late afternoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxLiYxyMf8U
Total bullshit. Pass thru PA, a major city, with all the needed equipment.
sickening
me-oww!
and regressive.
me-oww!
This point needs to be made over and over so all the dummies understand. Obama might as well join the Rethug party if he goes through with this.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
What this amounts to is the government acting as an enforcer for a private business to make sure people buy insurance and pay up. I thought only organized crime thugs did that.
The mandate is definitely unconstitutional.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/...
The mandate is definitely constitutional.
http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/i...
From dannyjp:
"What this amounts to is the government acting as an enforcer for a private business to make sure people buy insurance and pay up. I thought only organized crime thugs did that." - dannyjp
Boy oh boy. Wouldn't it be swell to have Dave Letterman ask Obama that question tomorrow night during their little hour long soiree??
Ha!!!!!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
to fight back against Douchebagopholous. What an ass clown and corporatist suckup Georgie boy is. Pay the boy his nine pieces of silver and he'll advocate anything.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
I support raising taxes to provide healthcare.
The idea that I'm legally required to pay for a commercial product that MIGHT cover the cost of my healthcare is extremely upsetting.
!
Thank you for that one.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
think it's homoerotic! lol
i have a wild idea. why not raise everyone's taxes, including a surtax on rich people, and put that into a giant insurance pool that pays for everybody's health care. then everybody who has a social security number pays their fair share and doesn't get away with not paying and then free-loading?
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